A modest proposal to increase the usefulness of the tagging list

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A modest proposal to increase the usefulness of the tagging list

SimonPoole
As a reader of this list I'm slightly overwhelmed by it right now.

Besides the longish off topic discussions that should have been held
somewhere else, we've had a massive increase in the number of proposals
and comments on these. As these typically will require looking at the
proposal, potentially commenting on its talk page and here, the increase
in noise has led to even a cursory examination of proposals for obvious
flaws (see the police proposal) not being possible at the current rate
of a new proposal every second day.

In the interest of keeping the list at least half usable, I would
suggest that we all, starting now, voluntarily submit to:

- not posting more than 30 times per month (the 30 comes from the WMF
mailing lists, where it seems to work quite well)

- not more than one proposal per person per month

- not more than 4 new proposals per month in total

Simon



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Re: A modest proposal to increase the usefulness of the tagging list

Jo-2
Who's going to keep the tally? Maybe we need an actual tool to help with this (I'm not proposing to write one or figure what could be used for doing so). But what if the 4 proposals are reached? Or someone feels the need to post 40 comments during a month? How do we stop the flood?

Polyglot

On Sun, Jun 2, 2019 at 10:49 AM Simon Poole <[hidden email]> wrote:
As a reader of this list I'm slightly overwhelmed by it right now.

Besides the longish off topic discussions that should have been held
somewhere else, we've had a massive increase in the number of proposals
and comments on these. As these typically will require looking at the
proposal, potentially commenting on its talk page and here, the increase
in noise has led to even a cursory examination of proposals for obvious
flaws (see the police proposal) not being possible at the current rate
of a new proposal every second day.

In the interest of keeping the list at least half usable, I would
suggest that we all, starting now, voluntarily submit to:

- not posting more than 30 times per month (the 30 comes from the WMF
mailing lists, where it seems to work quite well)

- not more than one proposal per person per month

- not more than 4 new proposals per month in total

Simon


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Re: A modest proposal to increase the usefulness of the tagging list

SimonPoole
I'm suggesting that everybody is grown up enough to self limit themselves. Outside of that, when in doubt a quick look at the months archive is all that is really needed.

Simon

Am 2. Juni 2019 11:11:36 MESZ schrieb Jo <[hidden email]>:
Who's going to keep the tally? Maybe we need an actual tool to help with this (I'm not proposing to write one or figure what could be used for doing so). But what if the 4 proposals are reached? Or someone feels the need to post 40 comments during a month? How do we stop the flood?

Polyglot

On Sun, Jun 2, 2019 at 10:49 AM Simon Poole <[hidden email]> wrote:
As a reader of this list I'm slightly overwhelmed by it right now.

Besides the longish off topic discussions that should have been held
somewhere else, we've had a massive increase in the number of proposals
and comments on these. As these typically will require looking at the
proposal, potentially commenting on its talk page and here, the increase
in noise has led to even a cursory examination of proposals for obvious
flaws (see the police proposal) not being possible at the current rate
of a new proposal every second day.

In the interest of keeping the list at least half usable, I would
suggest that we all, starting now, voluntarily submit to:

- not posting more than 30 times per month (the 30 comes from the WMF
mailing lists, where it seems to work quite well)

- not more than one proposal per person per month

- not more than 4 new proposals per month in total

Simon


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Re: A modest proposal to increase the usefulness of the tagging list

Frederik Ramm
In reply to this post by SimonPoole
Hi,

On 6/2/19 10:47, Simon Poole wrote:
> In the interest of keeping the list at least half usable, I would
> suggest that we all, starting now, voluntarily submit to:
>
> - not posting more than 30 times per month (the 30 comes from the WMF
> mailing lists, where it seems to work quite well)
>
> - not more than one proposal per person per month
>
> - not more than 4 new proposals per month in total

- propose tags only if you, personally, have solid demand for it (i.e.
you have already mapped, or intend to map, the feature intensively).
This puts a practical limit to idle tag fantasising. Everyone can think
of something that doesn't have a tag yet - that is the cheap part...

Bye
Frederik
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Re: A modest proposal to increase the usefulness of the tagging list

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by SimonPoole


sent from a phone

> On 2. Jun 2019, at 10:47, Simon Poole <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> In the interest of keeping the list at least half usable, I would
> suggest that we all, starting now, voluntarily submit to:
>
> - not posting more than 30 times per month (the 30 comes from the WMF
> mailing lists, where it seems to work quite well)


it might lead to longer posts in general. There are currently big differences in the structure of emails according to the author, some people commenting on a short quoted paragraph with a single sentence, while others posting long essays in reply to full quotation of preceding long essays.



>
> - not more than one proposal per person per month
>
> - not more than 4 new proposals per month in total


I’m against limiting the amount with hard numbers. These will always be arbitrary, and proposals are often covering very “specialist” topic in great detail. You do not have to follow everything, just follow those topics where you feel you have something to contribute. With just 4 proposals a month we would commonly run into situations where we limit contributions of new tagging proposals just because there are already proposals of underground waterways in pipes, utility poles, train safety systems and hydrant specifics proposed in the same month.

Cheers, Martin



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Re: A modest proposal to increase the usefulness of the tagging list

Andy Townsend
In reply to this post by Jo-2
On 02/06/2019 10:11, Jo wrote:
> Who's going to keep the tally? Maybe we need an actual tool to help
> with this (I'm not proposing to write one or figure what could be used
> for doing so).

Create a shell script called something like "taglistpeople.sh" containing:

lynx -width=1024 --dump
"https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/${1}-${2}/date.html#start"
| grep "\[Tagging\]" | sed "s/.*  //" | sort | uniq -c | sort -n -r |
head -20

then e.g. "taglistpeople.sh  2019 May"

(bugger - that's one of my 30)

Best Regards,

Andy




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Re: A modest proposal to increase the usefulness of the tagging list

Christoph Hormann-2
In reply to this post by SimonPoole
On Sunday 02 June 2019, Simon Poole wrote:
>
> - not posting more than 30 times per month (the 30 comes from the WMF
> mailing lists, where it seems to work quite well)
>
> - not more than one proposal per person per month
>
> - not more than 4 new proposals per month in total

Note there have been in the past opinions that documenting a new tag
without creating a proposal is not desirable (see
the "motorcycle:scale" thread earlier this year).  If you combine that
with the limitation of the number of proposals that can be made you
would essentially limit our base principle of "Any tags you like".

In other words:  Any rate limitation to the proposal process would IMO
need to go with a clear agreement that the proposal process is optional
for creating a new tag.

In the past i usually preferred the wiki for bringing up and discussing
questions related to specific tags especially because it allowed for
more selective participation in discussion.  But the introduction of
bot edits into the wiki to me largely burnt the whole thing.  A clear
agreement that the tagging documentation part of the wiki is humans
only without using mechanical tools would therefore also help a
lot. ;-)

My own observation regarding the tagging list is that endless threads
are much more annoying than the overall number of new subjects opened.  
So having as a guiding principle the rule not to post more than two or
three replies on the same subject could be useful.  It would encourage
everyone to contemplate their replies more thoroughly and not engage in
back-and forth two person dialogs - for which this kind of mailing list
with a large number of subscribers is not really the ideal place.

--
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: A modest proposal to increase the usefulness of the tagging list

Valor Naram
We should also remember ourselves that we want to talk objectively about topics as often as possible and avoiding debates that are driving too emotional. Sure, everyone is free to express his/her subjective view but it shouldn't enlarge to a emotional debate like in thread https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2019-May/045707.html and ongoing. I am talking about iD's validation rules and the discussion about it. At the end it drove to a emotional debate about how someone should behave and such debates aren't helpful in my point of view.


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Tagging] A modest proposal to increase the usefulness of the tagging list
From: Christoph Hormann
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
CC:


On Sunday 02 June 2019, Simon Poole wrote:
>
> - not posting more than 30 times per month (the 30 comes from the WMF
> mailing lists, where it seems to work quite well)
>
> - not more than one proposal per person per month
>
> - not more than 4 new proposals per month in total

Note there have been in the past opinions that documenting a new tag
without creating a proposal is not desirable (see
the "motorcycle:scale" thread earlier this year). If you combine that
with the limitation of the number of proposals that can be made you
would essentially limit our base principle of "Any tags you like".

In other words: Any rate limitation to the proposal process would IMO
need to go with a clear agreement that the proposal process is optional
for creating a new tag.

In the past i usually preferred the wiki for bringing up and discussing
questions related to specific tags especially because it allowed for
more selective participation in discussion. But the introduction of
bot edits into the wiki to me largely burnt the whole thing. A clear
agreement that the tagging documentation part of the wiki is humans
only without using mechanical tools would therefore also help a
lot. ;-)

My own observation regarding the tagging list is that endless threads
are much more annoying than the overall number of new subjects opened.
So having as a guiding principle the rule not to post more than two or
three replies on the same subject could be useful. It would encourage
everyone to contemplate their replies more thoroughly and not engage in
back-and forth two person dialogs - for which this kind of mailing list
with a large number of subscribers is not really the ideal place.

--
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: A modest proposal to increase the usefulness of the tagging list

Frederik Ramm
In reply to this post by Christoph Hormann-2
Hi,

On 6/2/19 13:17, Christoph Hormann wrote:
> Note there have been in the past opinions that documenting a new tag
> without creating a proposal is not desirable

That is also my opinion, however, I don't see anything wrong with
someone just "trying out" a tag in the "any tags you like" spirit
without documenting it. (Or, if desperately needed, documenting it only
on their private user page.)

Bye
Frederik

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Re: A modest proposal to increase the usefulness of the tagging list

Paul Allen
In reply to this post by SimonPoole
On Sun, 2 Jun 2019 at 09:49, Simon Poole <[hidden email]> wrote:

In the interest of keeping the list at least half usable, I would
suggest that we all, starting now, voluntarily submit to:

[...]

I don't doubt your frustration or your good intentions, but it seems possible that this thread
will generate a large volume of increasingly heated responses, making the list even more
annoying (at least until it all dies down).  Not your intention, but a possible outcome.

Others have already mentioned problems with your suggestions, and no doubt many
more will do so.  I'm in broad agreement with those objections.

As I already said, I understand your frustration.  The best solution is a mail client capable of
filtering out threads or people you feel are not worth your attention.  It's not an ideal solution
because you will miss things that way - somebody raises a good point in an ignored thread
or somebody you ignored because you almost always disagree with that person says
something worth while.

Downsides of filtering: you may still see snippets of somebody you've blacklisted when
another person quotes them.  You may see an ignored thread reappear because of
people not threading their replies correctly.

Upside of filtering: you may still see the few good contributions from somebody you've
blacklisted when that person gets quoted by somebody else.

--
Paul


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Re: A modest proposal to increase the usefulness of the tagging list

Paul Allen
In reply to this post by Frederik Ramm
On Sun, 2 Jun 2019 at 13:39, Frederik Ramm <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 6/2/19 13:17, Christoph Hormann wrote:
> Note there have been in the past opinions that documenting a new tag
> without creating a proposal is not desirable

That is also my opinion, however, I don't see anything wrong with
someone just "trying out" a tag in the "any tags you like" spirit
without documenting it. (Or, if desperately needed, documenting it only
on their private user page.)

I have come to the conclusion (possibly a wrong conclusion) that this list isn't about
enforcement but about advice.  The spirit of OSM is that you CAN create any tag you want.
However, discussing it here and then making a proposal (that is approved) means you're
more likely to create a tag that isn't problematic in some way.

--
Paul


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Re: A modest proposal to increase the usefulness of the tagging list

SimonPoole
In reply to this post by Paul Allen


Am 02.06.2019 um 14:40 schrieb Paul Allen:
On Sun, 2 Jun 2019 at 09:49, Simon Poole <[hidden email]> wrote:

In the interest of keeping the list at least half usable, I would
suggest that we all, starting now, voluntarily submit to:

[...]

I don't doubt your frustration or your good intentions, but it seems possible that this thread
will generate a large volume of increasingly heated responses, making the list even more
annoying (at least until it all dies down).  Not your intention, but a possible outcome.

Others have already mentioned problems with your suggestions, and no doubt many
more will do so.  I'm in broad agreement with those objections.

As I already said, I understand your frustration. 

No, obviously you don't.

There is just no way the community can handle a dozen or more proposals per month in any reasonable fashion, essentially it is just gaming the system in another way than wikifiddiling. BTW I've used threaded mail clients for a couple of decades and that is not the problem either or the volume that the bike sheding which is to be expected due to the subject matter tends to produce

Simon

The best solution is a mail client capable of
filtering out threads or people you feel are not worth your attention.  It's not an ideal solution
because you will miss things that way - somebody raises a good point in an ignored thread
or somebody you ignored because you almost always disagree with that person says
something worth while.

Downsides of filtering: you may still see snippets of somebody you've blacklisted when
another person quotes them.  You may see an ignored thread reappear because of
people not threading their replies correctly.

Upside of filtering: you may still see the few good contributions from somebody you've
blacklisted when that person gets quoted by somebody else.

--
Paul


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Re: A modest proposal to increase the usefulness of the tagging list

Paul Allen
On Sun, 2 Jun 2019 at 14:17, Simon Poole <[hidden email]> wrote:

Am 02.06.2019 um 14:40 schrieb Paul Allen:

As I already said, I understand your frustration. 

No, obviously you don't.


Really?  You looked inside my head and determined that I do not understand your frustration.
And here I was thinking that I merely disagreed with your proposed solution.  That just goes to
show how stupid I am, right?

There is just no way the community can handle a dozen or more proposals per month in any reasonable fashion,

That's an interesting assertion.  I'm not convinced the evidence backs it up, but I'll assume
(for the sake of argument) that you're right.  So now what?  We refuse to deal with the 13th
proposal in a month so the proposer invents an ill-conceived tag and uses it.  Until and
unless you can put a mechanism in place that prevents people inventing tags and using
them without discussing them on the list first, this is not a good idea.  Hint: I use `12 of my
30 posts/month proposing whimsical tags, so that the tag I really want to use is not
subject to discussion so I'm free to use it anyway.

essentially it is just gaming the system in another way than wikifiddiling.

It appears you believe people are deliberately making proposals to game the system.  I'm
far from convinced that is the case.  But if you're right about people acting in bad faith, I'd
already thought of two ways people can game your proposal before you replied to me, and I
wasn't even putting any effort into trying to find flaws like that.  Your proposal won't stop people
gaming the system (if anybody actually is gaming the system), it will just change the tactics.

--
Paul


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Re: A modest proposal to increase the usefulness of the tagging list

SimonPoole


Am 02.06.2019 um 15:41 schrieb Paul Allen:
On Sun, 2 Jun 2019 at 14:17, Simon Poole <[hidden email]> wrote:

Am 02.06.2019 um 14:40 schrieb Paul Allen:

As I already said, I understand your frustration. 

No, obviously you don't.


Really?  You looked inside my head and determined that I do not understand your frustration.
And here I was thinking that I merely disagreed with your proposed solution.  That just goes to
show how stupid I am, right?

There is just no way the community can handle a dozen or more proposals per month in any reasonable fashion,

That's an interesting assertion.  I'm not convinced the evidence backs it up, but I'll assume
(for the sake of argument) that you're right.  So now what?  We refuse to deal with the 13th
proposal in a month so the proposer invents an ill-conceived tag and uses it.  Until and
unless you can put a mechanism in place that prevents people inventing tags and using
them without discussing them on the list first, this is not a good idea.  Hint: I use `12 of my
30 posts/month proposing whimsical tags, so that the tag I really want to use is not
subject to discussion so I'm free to use it anyway.

As Frederik has already pointed out, a proposal and the perhaps the following "stamp of approval" is not necessary for using a tag, some documentation would be nice but not required. So nothing in my suggestion limits which tags can be used, it just rate limits the influx of proposals that actually want attention, so they can actually get it.

Simon


essentially it is just gaming the system in another way than wikifiddiling.

It appears you believe people are deliberately making proposals to game the system.  I'm
far from convinced that is the case.  But if you're right about people acting in bad faith, I'd
already thought of two ways people can game your proposal before you replied to me, and I
wasn't even putting any effort into trying to find flaws like that.  Your proposal won't stop people
gaming the system (if anybody actually is gaming the system), it will just change the tactics.

--
Paul


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Re: A modest proposal to increase the usefulness of the tagging list

osm.tagging
In reply to this post by SimonPoole
I've just checked the history, and as far as I can tell, there has been a grand total of just 15 proposals put to voting since the beginning of the year (5 months, so 3 per month on avg.)

Also, even with all the noise, there have been only about 28 messages per day on avg, which is less then most other mailing lists and forums I follow.

I agree that there has been some unnecessary noise, most of it caused by less than a handful of people.

Overall, I don't think there is any issue here that needs to be urgently addressed.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Simon Poole <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Sunday, 2 June 2019 18:48
> To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
> <[hidden email]>
> Subject: [Tagging] A modest proposal to increase the usefulness of
> the tagging list
>
> As a reader of this list I'm slightly overwhelmed by it right now.
>
> Besides the longish off topic discussions that should have been held
> somewhere else, we've had a massive increase in the number of
> proposals and comments on these. As these typically will require
> looking at the proposal, potentially commenting on its talk page and
> here, the increase in noise has led to even a cursory examination of
> proposals for obvious flaws (see the police proposal) not being
> possible at the current rate of a new proposal every second day.
>
> In the interest of keeping the list at least half usable, I would
> suggest that we all, starting now, voluntarily submit to:
>
> - not posting more than 30 times per month (the 30 comes from the
> WMF mailing lists, where it seems to work quite well)
>
> - not more than one proposal per person per month
>
> - not more than 4 new proposals per month in total
>
> Simon
>




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Re: A modest proposal to increase the usefulness of the tagging list

SimonPoole

Am 02.06.2019 um 17:36 schrieb [hidden email]:
> I've just checked the history, and as far as I can tell, there has been a grand total of just 15 proposals put to voting since the beginning of the year (5 months, so 3 per month on avg.)

There were ~16 new proposals last month, which compared to 3, shows just
why I'm making this suggestion.

Simon

 

>
> Also, even with all the noise, there have been only about 28 messages per day on avg, which is less then most other mailing lists and forums I follow.
>
> I agree that there has been some unnecessary noise, most of it caused by less than a handful of people.
>
> Overall, I don't think there is any issue here that needs to be urgently addressed.
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Simon Poole <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Sunday, 2 June 2019 18:48
>> To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
>> <[hidden email]>
>> Subject: [Tagging] A modest proposal to increase the usefulness of
>> the tagging list
>>
>> As a reader of this list I'm slightly overwhelmed by it right now.
>>
>> Besides the longish off topic discussions that should have been held
>> somewhere else, we've had a massive increase in the number of
>> proposals and comments on these. As these typically will require
>> looking at the proposal, potentially commenting on its talk page and
>> here, the increase in noise has led to even a cursory examination of
>> proposals for obvious flaws (see the police proposal) not being
>> possible at the current rate of a new proposal every second day.
>>
>> In the interest of keeping the list at least half usable, I would
>> suggest that we all, starting now, voluntarily submit to:
>>
>> - not posting more than 30 times per month (the 30 comes from the
>> WMF mailing lists, where it seems to work quite well)
>>
>> - not more than one proposal per person per month
>>
>> - not more than 4 new proposals per month in total
>>
>> Simon
>>
>
>
>
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Re: A modest proposal to increase the usefulness of the tagging list

marc marc
In reply to this post by SimonPoole
Le 02.06.19 à 10:47, Simon Poole a écrit :
> I would suggest that we all, starting now, voluntarily submit to:

I will add the suggestion of a useful quoting.
a 4-sheet reply where you have to find in it the only line
that is not a quote, it's indigestible, a waste of time and clarity

Le 02.06.19 à 13:17, Christoph Hormann a écrit :
 > Any rate limitation to the proposal process would IMO
 > need to go with a clear agreement that the proposal
 > process is optional for creating a new tag.

I have 3 propals on standby, given the volume, I prefer to wait until
it calms down because human time is limited. why it is a problem ?
of on the contrary, it is in my opinion the best thing to do for
the propal process to lead to an increase in quality, which requires
that the community has time to devote to it

Regards,
Marc who will also try to make it shorter
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Re: A modest proposal to increase the usefulness of the tagging list

Graeme Fitzpatrick
Maybe we don't hold discussions on the list, but only have them on the discussion page of the proposal?

Post to the list to say:
Title: Proposal re xxxxxxxxxxxx

I've come up with a proposal for xxxxxxxxxxxx

Link: yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

Possibly include a brief synopsis of the proposal, but that should be on the proposal itself, so maybe not required?

Then everybody comments on the discussion page.

That page could get quite long, but should also be able to be laid out so that comments are grouped together
Part A
My explanation
    Your comment
          My reply
                Their comment
                         Your response
                               My amendment
Part B
My explanation
      Etc

2 weeks later, reply to your own original post to say "Voting now open - link xxxxxxxxxxxxx"

Carrying on with that idea, if you've come up with possible changes to an existing tag, then post as 

Proposed changes to xxxxxxxxxx

Brief explanation

Link

So if anybody is interested in telephone lines, underground waterways, police facilities etc, they can go to that page & discuss it, but if they're not, they don't!

The mailing list should then become a concise index of what proposals are going through.

Would that all work?

Thanks

Graeme

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Re: A modest proposal to increase the usefulness of the tagging list

Valor Naram
Yes it would work and I would highly appreciate it because it's easier for me to maintain a discussion page than a discussion on a mailing list. A discussion page gives me more control of the discussion itself which is needed for moderating.

Cheers

Sören alias Valor Naram


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Tagging] A modest proposal to increase the usefulness of the tagging list
From: Graeme Fitzpatrick
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
CC:


Maybe we don't hold discussions on the list, but only have them on the discussion page of the proposal?

Post to the list to say:
Title: Proposal re xxxxxxxxxxxx

I've come up with a proposal for xxxxxxxxxxxx

Link: yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

Possibly include a brief synopsis of the proposal, but that should be on the proposal itself, so maybe not required?

Then everybody comments on the discussion page.

That page could get quite long, but should also be able to be laid out so that comments are grouped together
Part A
My explanation
    Your comment
          My reply
                Their comment
                         Your response
                               My amendment
Part B
My explanation
      Etc

2 weeks later, reply to your own original post to say "Voting now open - link xxxxxxxxxxxxx"

Carrying on with that idea, if you've come up with possible changes to an existing tag, then post as 

Proposed changes to xxxxxxxxxx

Brief explanation

Link

So if anybody is interested in telephone lines, underground waterways, police facilities etc, they can go to that page & discuss it, but if they're not, they don't!

The mailing list should then become a concise index of what proposals are going through.

Would that all work?

Thanks

Graeme

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Re: A modest proposal to increase the usefulness of the tagging list

Tagging mailing list
In reply to this post by SimonPoole
(not read the whole thread as there are far too many from you, Simon.)

What is WMF ?

When you say "not posting more than 30 times per month" do you mean thread starts or are you including responses?

Never understood the criticism of "noise" - if you don't like it, ignore it.

These are forums for discussion. They can go on a bit. Get over it.
 
DaveF

On 02/06/2019 09:47, Simon Poole wrote:
As a reader of this list I'm slightly overwhelmed by it right now.

Besides the longish off topic discussions that should have been held
somewhere else, we've had a massive increase in the number of proposals
and comments on these. As these typically will require looking at the
proposal, potentially commenting on its talk page and here, the increase
in noise has led to even a cursory examination of proposals for obvious
flaws (see the police proposal) not being possible at the current rate
of a new proposal every second day.

In the interest of keeping the list at least half usable, I would
suggest that we all, starting now, voluntarily submit to:

- not posting more than 30 times per month (the 30 comes from the WMF
mailing lists, where it seems to work quite well)

- not more than one proposal per person per month

- not more than 4 new proposals per month in total

Simon




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