Adding leisure=sports_hall to leisure=sports_centre page

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Adding leisure=sports_hall to leisure=sports_centre page

Joseph Eisenberg
Another user would like the proposed tag (used 329 times)
leisure=sports_hall to be added to leisure=sports_centre.

However, I believe that rarely used, proposed tags should be approved
through the proposal process or should become commonly used
organically, before being added to the pages of common tags and keys.

Also, it's not clear to me why it would be beneficial to add the tag
leisure=sports_hall; it's definition seems to overlap with many types
of sports centres:

"leisure=sports_hall can be used for a building or an area within a
larger building that is used as a sports hall. The tag can be used for
all kinds of sports halls where no other tag (e.g.
leisure=bowling_alley, leisure=ice_rink, leisure=fitness_centre or
leisure=sports_centre) is more appropriate"

So, this can be a synonym for a sports_centre, or a tag for a building
found in a sports_centre?

Why not just use building=sports_hall and sports_centre for the whole area?

- Joseph

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Re: Adding leisure=sports_hall to leisure=sports_centre page

Tom Pfeifer
On 05.09.2019 15:48, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
> Another user would like the proposed tag (used 329 times)

346 if you count all tags. Look at taghistory and see it has grown from 22 in early 2018, thus about
15 times.

It was a result of discussion in some communities that time.

> leisure=sports_hall to be added to leisure=sports_centre.

No. You cannot add the value to the same key.

The intention of leisure=sports_hall is to describe facilities better that were incorrectly tagged
leisure=sports_centre, an example are simple school sport halls, which certainly are not 'centres'.


> However, I believe that rarely used, proposed tags should be approved
> through the proposal process or should become commonly used
> organically, before being added to the pages of common tags and keys.

If you look at the history, it is being growing organically.
A hint to consider a more suitable tag on the centre page tagging cannot hurt.

> So, this can be a synonym for a sports_centre, or a tag for a building
> found in a sports_centre?

More precisely, leisure=sports_hall is for facilities that are not centres.
Surely a centre can hold, among other facilities to form a centre, one or more halls.

> Why not just use building=sports_hall and sports_centre for the whole area?

Because building=* describes the building typology, not the usage. leisure=* describes the usage.
Thus, a purpose-built sports hall is leisure=sports_hall+building=sports_hall, while a converted
church that is now used for sports is leisure=sports_hall+building=church.

tom

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Re: Adding leisure=sports_hall to leisure=sports_centre page

Joseph Eisenberg
What is a sports hall?

Is it what we call a "gym" in America?

The dictionary definition I found just said it was "a building used
for sports", and the wiki page only says it's a building or part of a
building "used as a sports hall", which doesn't do anything to clarify
the situation.

I don't see how that is different than the definition of
sports_centre: "a distinct facility where sports take place within an
enclosed area" - which then specifically mentions "it can be a
building".

I'll admit that we don't use the term "sports centre" in the USA
either, but at least the wiki definition is clearly vague: it's any
enclosed area (including buildings) where sports take place.

On 9/5/19, Tom Pfeifer <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 05.09.2019 15:48, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
>> Another user would like the proposed tag (used 329 times)
>
> 346 if you count all tags. Look at taghistory and see it has grown from 22
> in early 2018, thus about
> 15 times.
>
> It was a result of discussion in some communities that time.
>
>> leisure=sports_hall to be added to leisure=sports_centre.
>
> No. You cannot add the value to the same key.
>
> The intention of leisure=sports_hall is to describe facilities better that
> were incorrectly tagged
> leisure=sports_centre, an example are simple school sport halls, which
> certainly are not 'centres'.
>
>
>> However, I believe that rarely used, proposed tags should be approved
>> through the proposal process or should become commonly used
>> organically, before being added to the pages of common tags and keys.
>
> If you look at the history, it is being growing organically.
> A hint to consider a more suitable tag on the centre page tagging cannot
> hurt.
>
>> So, this can be a synonym for a sports_centre, or a tag for a building
>> found in a sports_centre?
>
> More precisely, leisure=sports_hall is for facilities that are not centres.
> Surely a centre can hold, among other facilities to form a centre, one or
> more halls.
>
>> Why not just use building=sports_hall and sports_centre for the whole
>> area?
>
> Because building=* describes the building typology, not the usage. leisure=*
> describes the usage.
> Thus, a purpose-built sports hall is
> leisure=sports_hall+building=sports_hall, while a converted
> church that is now used for sports is leisure=sports_hall+building=church.
>
> tom
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>

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Re: Adding leisure=sports_hall to leisure=sports_centre page

Philip Barnes
In terms of schools, we call them gyms in the UK too.

Certainly not sports halls.

Phil (trigpoint)

On Thursday, 5 September 2019, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:

> What is a sports hall?
>
> Is it what we call a "gym" in America?
>
> The dictionary definition I found just said it was "a building used
> for sports", and the wiki page only says it's a building or part of a
> building "used as a sports hall", which doesn't do anything to clarify
> the situation.
>
> I don't see how that is different than the definition of
> sports_centre: "a distinct facility where sports take place within an
> enclosed area" - which then specifically mentions "it can be a
> building".
>
> I'll admit that we don't use the term "sports centre" in the USA
> either, but at least the wiki definition is clearly vague: it's any
> enclosed area (including buildings) where sports take place.
>
> On 9/5/19, Tom Pfeifer <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On 05.09.2019 15:48, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
> >> Another user would like the proposed tag (used 329 times)
> >
> > 346 if you count all tags. Look at taghistory and see it has grown from 22
> > in early 2018, thus about
> > 15 times.
> >
> > It was a result of discussion in some communities that time.
> >
> >> leisure=sports_hall to be added to leisure=sports_centre.
> >
> > No. You cannot add the value to the same key.
> >
> > The intention of leisure=sports_hall is to describe facilities better that
> > were incorrectly tagged
> > leisure=sports_centre, an example are simple school sport halls, which
> > certainly are not 'centres'.
> >
> >
> >> However, I believe that rarely used, proposed tags should be approved
> >> through the proposal process or should become commonly used
> >> organically, before being added to the pages of common tags and keys.
> >
> > If you look at the history, it is being growing organically.
> > A hint to consider a more suitable tag on the centre page tagging cannot
> > hurt.
> >
> >> So, this can be a synonym for a sports_centre, or a tag for a building
> >> found in a sports_centre?
> >
> > More precisely, leisure=sports_hall is for facilities that are not centres.
> > Surely a centre can hold, among other facilities to form a centre, one or
> > more halls.
> >
> >> Why not just use building=sports_hall and sports_centre for the whole
> >> area?
> >
> > Because building=* describes the building typology, not the usage. leisure=*
> > describes the usage.
> > Thus, a purpose-built sports hall is
> > leisure=sports_hall+building=sports_hall, while a converted
> > church that is now used for sports is leisure=sports_hall+building=church.
> >
> > tom
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Tagging mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Adding leisure=sports_hall to leisure=sports_centre page

Chris Hill-6
The school, in the UK, that I went to over 40 years ago, had a sports
hall then and still does today. It's a sports hall I think because it is
marked out for various indoor sports,e.g. badminton, volley ball,
5-a-side football etc, with curtains or nets to separate courts when
needed. Next door was a swimming pool (now sadly no longer there - I
walked for hundreds of sponsored miles to help build that pool which the
Academy decided 35 years later was too expensive to maintain).

The school also had a gym when I attended. It was much smaller and much
older than the sports hall. It had wall bars, ropes and other gym
equipment of the day. The gym was used as an exam hall at some times of
year. The gym is no more.

So I think there is a place for both, but as always, local knowledge
helps in building accurate map data.

--
cheers
Chris Hill (chillly)


On 05/09/2019 16:21, Philip Barnes wrote:

> In terms of schools, we call them gyms in the UK too.
>
> Certainly not sports halls.
>
> Phil (trigpoint)
>
> On Thursday, 5 September 2019, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
>> What is a sports hall?
>>
>> Is it what we call a "gym" in America?
>>
>> The dictionary definition I found just said it was "a building used
>> for sports", and the wiki page only says it's a building or part of a
>> building "used as a sports hall", which doesn't do anything to clarify
>> the situation.
>>
>> I don't see how that is different than the definition of
>> sports_centre: "a distinct facility where sports take place within an
>> enclosed area" - which then specifically mentions "it can be a
>> building".
>>
>> I'll admit that we don't use the term "sports centre" in the USA
>> either, but at least the wiki definition is clearly vague: it's any
>> enclosed area (including buildings) where sports take place.
>>
>> On 9/5/19, Tom Pfeifer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> On 05.09.2019 15:48, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
>>>> Another user would like the proposed tag (used 329 times)
>>> 346 if you count all tags. Look at taghistory and see it has grown from 22
>>> in early 2018, thus about
>>> 15 times.
>>>
>>> It was a result of discussion in some communities that time.
>>>
>>>> leisure=sports_hall to be added to leisure=sports_centre.
>>> No. You cannot add the value to the same key.
>>>
>>> The intention of leisure=sports_hall is to describe facilities better that
>>> were incorrectly tagged
>>> leisure=sports_centre, an example are simple school sport halls, which
>>> certainly are not 'centres'.
>>>
>>>
>>>> However, I believe that rarely used, proposed tags should be approved
>>>> through the proposal process or should become commonly used
>>>> organically, before being added to the pages of common tags and keys.
>>> If you look at the history, it is being growing organically.
>>> A hint to consider a more suitable tag on the centre page tagging cannot
>>> hurt.
>>>
>>>> So, this can be a synonym for a sports_centre, or a tag for a building
>>>> found in a sports_centre?
>>> More precisely, leisure=sports_hall is for facilities that are not centres.
>>> Surely a centre can hold, among other facilities to form a centre, one or
>>> more halls.
>>>
>>>> Why not just use building=sports_hall and sports_centre for the whole
>>>> area?
>>> Because building=* describes the building typology, not the usage. leisure=*
>>> describes the usage.
>>> Thus, a purpose-built sports hall is
>>> leisure=sports_hall+building=sports_hall, while a converted
>>> church that is now used for sports is leisure=sports_hall+building=church.
>>>
>>> tom
>>>


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Re: Adding leisure=sports_hall to leisure=sports_centre page

Graeme Fitzpatrick

On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 at 03:08, Chris Hill <[hidden email]> wrote:
It's a sports hall I think because it is marked out for various indoor sports,e.g. badminton, volley ball,
5-a-side football etc, with curtains or nets to separate courts when
needed.

Thanks, Chris, that's what I was remembering from schools in Australia, but they weren't called a sports hall - usually Assembly Hall, as that's where the School assembles to be addressed by the principal.

Wouldn't that description still match the definition that Joseph quoted above though - "sports_centre: "a distinct facility where sports take place within an enclosed area" - which then specifically mentions "it can be a building"."?

Thanks

Graeme

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Re: Adding leisure=sports_hall to leisure=sports_centre page

Paul Allen
On Thu, 5 Sep 2019 at 23:30, Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]> wrote:

Wouldn't that description still match the definition that Joseph quoted above though - "sports_centre: "a distinct facility where sports take place within an enclosed area" - which then specifically mentions "it can be a building"."?

I try to avoid all sport.  Participating in, watching it, or reading about it.  So I claim no expertise
in all this.  However, the distinction that occurs to me is this.  A sports centre has several (at
least two) distinct areas in which different sports activities can occur simultaneously.  It
might be tennis, soccer and chess, or three separate soccer games, or whatever.
Somewhere like a village hall or even a leisure centre might have a sports hall within it:
it's not a sports centre but it has an area dedicated to one or more sports.  It might even have
more than one sports hall, but it's not  a sports centre because it does non-sport things too
(like maybe show films, as several village halls near me do).

Something along those lines is about the only reason I can see for having both tags.
Thinking about it, a sports centre could have several sports halls mapped within it if
you wanted to map it to that level of detail.

Or maybe I'm completely wrong.  In which case, carry on arguing.

--
Paul


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Re: Adding leisure=sports_hall to leisure=sports_centre page

Chris Hill-6
In reply to this post by Graeme Fitzpatrick
On 05/09/2019 23:29, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:

On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 at 03:08, Chris Hill <[hidden email]> wrote:
It's a sports hall I think because it is marked out for various indoor sports,e.g. badminton, volley ball,
5-a-side football etc, with curtains or nets to separate courts when
needed.

Thanks, Chris, that's what I was remembering from schools in Australia, but they weren't called a sports hall - usually Assembly Hall, as that's where the School assembles to be addressed by the principal.

Wouldn't that description still match the definition that Joseph quoted above though - "sports_centre: "a distinct facility where sports take place within an enclosed area" - which then specifically mentions "it can be a building"."?


To me a sports centre is a place that's dedicated to sport in its own space or grounds. It may have outdoor pitches,courts etc as well as indoor provisions. I think it could have a gym, i.e. a space with gym equipment too.

A sports hall, to me, is a building in an environment that is not wholly about sports,so a building in school grounds or in a business complex. It has more than just a gym room.

This is just my interpretation and I don't think agonising over precise meanings is that useful. I am, however strongly against homogenising the database. If someone describes a place as a sports hall I am strongly against someone overwriting that as a sports centre when they have no local knowledge, but just want to impose a structure to the data that doesn't actually exist. We are describing the real world which is messy, has contradictions and inconsistencies and which we will never ever get right with homogenous lists and restrictions. I say there as sports halls and sports centres and there is easily room for both.

-- 
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Chris Hill (chillly)

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Re: Adding leisure=sports_hall to leisure=sports_centre page

Joseph Eisenberg
Re: "A sports hall, to me, is a building in an environment that is not
wholly about sports,so a building in school grounds or in a business
complex."

That's a useful definition.

Can anyone confirm if this is how it's being used? I believe most of
the original discussion was about features in Germany (Sporthallen?) -
I think these are the same as a school Gymnasium in the USA, but I'm
not sure.

I'm just concerned that with the current lack of definition on the
wiki page, people will start using it for features that are normally
tagged as sports centres in a single building, like a dedicated futsal
centre in Brazil or an indoor tennis centre in Indonesia, where words
like "sports hall" and "sports centre" may have no clear translation
into the local language.

- Joseph Eisenberg

On 9/6/19, Chris Hill <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 05/09/2019 23:29, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 at 03:08, Chris Hill <[hidden email]
>> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>>     It's a sports hall I think because it is marked out for various
>>     indoor sports,e.g. badminton, volley ball,
>>     5-a-side football etc, with curtains or nets to separate courts when
>>     needed.
>>
>>
>> Thanks, Chris, that's what I was remembering from schools in
>> Australia, but they weren't called a sports hall - usually Assembly
>> Hall, as that's where the School assembles to be addressed by the
>> principal.
>>
>> Wouldn't that description still match the definition that Joseph
>> quoted above though - "sports_centre: "a distinct facility where
>> sports take place within an enclosed area" - which then specifically
>> mentions "it can be a building"."?
>>
>>
> To me a sports centre is a place that's dedicated to sport in its own
> space or grounds. It may have outdoor pitches,courts etc as well as
> indoor provisions. I think it could have a gym, i.e. a space with gym
> equipment too.
>
> A sports hall, to me, is a building in an environment that is not wholly
> about sports,so a building in school grounds or in a business complex.
> It has more than just a gym room.
>
> This is just my interpretation and I don't think agonising over precise
> meanings is that useful. I am, however strongly against homogenising the
> database. If someone describes a place as a sports hall I am strongly
> against someone overwriting that as a sports centre when they have no
> local knowledge, but just want to impose a structure to the data that
> doesn't actually exist. We are describing the real world which is messy,
> has contradictions and inconsistencies and which we will never ever get
> right with homogenous lists and restrictions. I say there as sports
> halls and sports centres and there is easily room for both.
>
> --
> cheers
> Chris Hill (chillly)
>
>

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Re: Adding leisure=sports_hall to leisure=sports_centre page

sdoerr
In reply to this post by Philip Barnes
My UK school had both a gym and a sports hall. And neither was used for
the morning assembly: there was a main hall (with a stage) for that,
which was also used for serving school dinners at lunchtime.

Steve


On 05/09/2019 16:21, Philip Barnes wrote:

> In terms of schools, we call them gyms in the UK too.
>
> Certainly not sports halls.
>
> Phil (trigpoint)
>
> On Thursday, 5 September 2019, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
>> What is a sports hall?
>>
>> Is it what we call a "gym" in America?
>>
>> The dictionary definition I found just said it was "a building used
>> for sports", and the wiki page only says it's a building or part of a
>> building "used as a sports hall", which doesn't do anything to clarify
>> the situation.
>>
>> I don't see how that is different than the definition of
>> sports_centre: "a distinct facility where sports take place within an
>> enclosed area" - which then specifically mentions "it can be a
>> building".
>>
>> I'll admit that we don't use the term "sports centre" in the USA
>> either, but at least the wiki definition is clearly vague: it's any
>> enclosed area (including buildings) where sports take place.
>>
>> On 9/5/19, Tom Pfeifer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> On 05.09.2019 15:48, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
>>>> Another user would like the proposed tag (used 329 times)
>>> 346 if you count all tags. Look at taghistory and see it has grown from 22
>>> in early 2018, thus about
>>> 15 times.
>>>
>>> It was a result of discussion in some communities that time.
>>>
>>>> leisure=sports_hall to be added to leisure=sports_centre.
>>> No. You cannot add the value to the same key.
>>>
>>> The intention of leisure=sports_hall is to describe facilities better that
>>> were incorrectly tagged
>>> leisure=sports_centre, an example are simple school sport halls, which
>>> certainly are not 'centres'.
>>>
>>>
>>>> However, I believe that rarely used, proposed tags should be approved
>>>> through the proposal process or should become commonly used
>>>> organically, before being added to the pages of common tags and keys.
>>> If you look at the history, it is being growing organically.
>>> A hint to consider a more suitable tag on the centre page tagging cannot
>>> hurt.
>>>
>>>> So, this can be a synonym for a sports_centre, or a tag for a building
>>>> found in a sports_centre?
>>> More precisely, leisure=sports_hall is for facilities that are not centres.
>>> Surely a centre can hold, among other facilities to form a centre, one or
>>> more halls.
>>>
>>>> Why not just use building=sports_hall and sports_centre for the whole
>>>> area?
>>> Because building=* describes the building typology, not the usage. leisure=*
>>> describes the usage.
>>> Thus, a purpose-built sports hall is
>>> leisure=sports_hall+building=sports_hall, while a converted
>>> church that is now used for sports is leisure=sports_hall+building=church.
>>>
>>> tom
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Tagging mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tagging mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
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Re: Adding leisure=sports_hall to leisure=sports_centre page

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Chris Hill-6


sent from a phone

On 6. Sep 2019, at 13:47, Chris Hill <[hidden email]> wrote:

To me a sports centre is a place that's dedicated to sport in its own space or grounds. It may have outdoor pitches,courts etc as well as indoor provisions. I think it could have a gym, i.e. a space with gym equipment too.

A sports hall, to me, is a building in an environment that is not wholly about sports,so a building in school grounds or in a business complex. It has more than just a gym room.



+1, this is exactly how I see it as well 

Cheers Martin 

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Re: Adding leisure=sports_hall to leisure=sports_centre page

Joseph Eisenberg
Re: > "My UK school had both a gym and a sports hall."

What was the difference between the two? Was the gym like a "fitness
centre" for weight training, perhaps? In US English we tend to use
"gym" for what seems to be a "sports hall" in some dialects, and also
for "weight lifting gyms" and "fitness centres" full of exercise
equipment.

- Joseph

On 9/7/19, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> On 6. Sep 2019, at 13:47, Chris Hill <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> To me a sports centre is a place that's dedicated to sport in its own
>> space or grounds. It may have outdoor pitches,courts etc as well as indoor
>> provisions. I think it could have a gym, i.e. a space with gym equipment
>> too.
>>
>> A sports hall, to me, is a building in an environment that is not wholly
>> about sports,so a building in school grounds or in a business complex. It
>> has more than just a gym room.
>>
>
>
> +1, this is exactly how I see it as well
>
> Cheers Martin

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Re: Adding leisure=sports_hall to leisure=sports_centre page

Joseph Eisenberg
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
(Sent to you directly since I don't want to add too many posts to the
mailing list)

> +1, this is exactly how I see it as well

Is this how the tag has been used in Rome and in other areas that you
know? I'd like to add this to the page Tag:leisure=sports_hall to help
clarify how it's different from a sports centre, but I want to confirm
that this is the "de facto" meaning.

Joseph

On 9/7/19, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> On 6. Sep 2019, at 13:47, Chris Hill <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> To me a sports centre is a place that's dedicated to sport in its own
>> space or grounds. It may have outdoor pitches,courts etc as well as indoor
>> provisions. I think it could have a gym, i.e. a space with gym equipment
>> too.
>>
>> A sports hall, to me, is a building in an environment that is not wholly
>> about sports,so a building in school grounds or in a business complex. It
>> has more than just a gym room.
>>
>
>

>
> Cheers Martin

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Re: Adding leisure=sports_hall to leisure=sports_centre page

Hufkratzer
This is not how the tag is used. It is often used for sports halls of
sports centers, some examples can be found in
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/leisure%3Dsports_hall#Examples_in_the_OSM_database 
.
The wiki page for sports_hall says "A sports hall can often be found on
a campus of a school or in a sports centre."

Recently you added to the wiki page for sports_centre that sports halls
inside of sports centres don't need a leisure tag if the centre is
mapped as an area. OTOH it says "Use building=* for any buildings which
are included within the centre. These can be given different sport and
leisure tags." AFAIK the sport tag always needs a physical tag. Is that
recent addition compatible with that? Is building=* a physical tag for
sport=*? It is not listed in
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:sport#Associated_tags .

I think it would be too difficult for mappers to have different tagging
rules for sports halls inside and outside of sports centres and
depending on whether the sports center is mapped as a node or an area.

If you do not recommend to tag a sport hall inside of a sports centre
with a leisure tag how do you recomend to tag a fitness studio inside of
a sports centre and why?


On 07.09.2019 02:35, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
 > (Sent to you directly since I don't want to add too many posts to the
 > mailing list)
 >
 >> +1, this is exactly how I see it as well
 >
 > Is this how the tag has been used in Rome and in other areas that you
 > know? I'd like to add this to the page Tag:leisure=sports_hall to help
 > clarify how it's different from a sports centre, but I want to confirm
 > that this is the "de facto" meaning.
 >
 > Joseph
 >
 > On 9/7/19, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:
 >>
 >> sent from a phone
 >>
 >>> On 6. Sep 2019, at 13:47, Chris Hill <[hidden email]> wrote:
 >>>
 >>> To me a sports centre is a place that's dedicated to sport in its own
 >>> space or grounds. It may have outdoor pitches,courts etc as well as
indoor
 >>> provisions. I think it could have a gym, i.e. a space with gym
equipment
 >>> too.
 >>>
 >>> A sports hall, to me, is a building in an environment that is not
wholly
 >>> about sports,so a building in school grounds or in a business
complex. It
 >>> has more than just a gym room.
 >>>
 >>
 >> Cheers Martin
 > _______________________________________________
 > Tagging mailing list
 > [hidden email]
 > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


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Re: Adding leisure=sports_hall to leisure=sports_centre page

Joseph Eisenberg
> how do you recomend to tag a fitness studio inside of a sports centre

Is a "fitness studio" a sports hall? I thought a sports hall was a
building with a large court (leisure=pitch) instead or several courts,
and probably with toilets and changing rooms. Isn't a fitness centre
tagged leisure=fitness_centre instead?

To tag a covered court ("pitch" in OSM) one can use leisure=pitch +
covered=yes, perhaps? I think this is what I've done for basketball
courts and covered futsal fields here, though I might have just mapped
the whole area as leisure=sports_centre and not mapped the court/pitch
specifically.

To me it seems redundant to tag leisure=sports_hall on buildings
inside of a leisure=sports_center, like tagging
"healthcare=hospital_ward" on each building inside of a large medical
center which is already mapped as amenity=hospital. The standard
tagging that is building=hospital, like building=school inside of an
amenity=school area.

While in theory building=school could be reused as a hotel/pub (See
https://www.mcmenamins.com/kennedy-school) in that case the building
will be inside of a tourism=hotel polygon so it's clear that it's no
longer a school.

- Joseph Eisenberg

On 9/7/19, Hufkratzer <[hidden email]> wrote:

> This is not how the tag is used. It is often used for sports halls of
> sports centers, some examples can be found in
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/leisure%3Dsports_hall#Examples_in_the_OSM_database
> .
> The wiki page for sports_hall says "A sports hall can often be found on
> a campus of a school or in a sports centre."
>
> Recently you added to the wiki page for sports_centre that sports halls
> inside of sports centres don't need a leisure tag if the centre is
> mapped as an area. OTOH it says "Use building=* for any buildings which
> are included within the centre. These can be given different sport and
> leisure tags." AFAIK the sport tag always needs a physical tag. Is that
> recent addition compatible with that? Is building=* a physical tag for
> sport=*? It is not listed in
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:sport#Associated_tags .
>
> I think it would be too difficult for mappers to have different tagging
> rules for sports halls inside and outside of sports centres and
> depending on whether the sports center is mapped as a node or an area.
>
> If you do not recommend to tag a sport hall inside of a sports centre
> with a leisure tag how do you recomend to tag a fitness studio inside of
> a sports centre and why?
>
>
> On 07.09.2019 02:35, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
>  > (Sent to you directly since I don't want to add too many posts to the
>  > mailing list)
>  >
>  >> +1, this is exactly how I see it as well
>  >
>  > Is this how the tag has been used in Rome and in other areas that you
>  > know? I'd like to add this to the page Tag:leisure=sports_hall to help
>  > clarify how it's different from a sports centre, but I want to confirm
>  > that this is the "de facto" meaning.
>  >
>  > Joseph
>  >
>  > On 9/7/19, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  >>
>  >> sent from a phone
>  >>
>  >>> On 6. Sep 2019, at 13:47, Chris Hill <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  >>>
>  >>> To me a sports centre is a place that's dedicated to sport in its own
>  >>> space or grounds. It may have outdoor pitches,courts etc as well as
> indoor
>  >>> provisions. I think it could have a gym, i.e. a space with gym
> equipment
>  >>> too.
>  >>>
>  >>> A sports hall, to me, is a building in an environment that is not
> wholly
>  >>> about sports,so a building in school grounds or in a business
> complex. It
>  >>> has more than just a gym room.
>  >>>
>  >>
>  >> Cheers Martin
>  > _______________________________________________
>  > Tagging mailing list
>  > [hidden email]
>  > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>

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Re: Adding leisure=sports_hall to leisure=sports_centre page

Joseph Eisenberg
Per taginfo, building=yes is used 7500 times with leisure=pitch, and
covered=yes is used 1017 times, so I suppose it's more common to match
the pitch with the same outline as the building rather than using
covered=yes and a separate building outline.
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/leisure=pitch#combinations

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building typology vs usage / Re: Adding leisure=sports_hall to leisure=sports_centre page

Tom Pfeifer
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg
On 07.09.2019 09:16, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:

> To me it seems redundant to tag leisure=sports_hall on buildings
> inside of a leisure=sports_center, like tagging
> "healthcare=hospital_ward" on each building inside of a large medical
> center which is already mapped as amenity=hospital. The standard
> tagging that is building=hospital, like building=school inside of an
> amenity=school area.
>
> While in theory building=school could be reused as a hotel/pub (See
> https://www.mcmenamins.com/kennedy-school) in that case the building
> will be inside of a tourism=hotel polygon so it's clear that it's no
> longer a school.

Please understand that the building typology is orthogonal to the usage of the building.
Thus having both a building=X and leisure/amenity=X on the same polygon is not redundant.

If the usage changes to Y, and the building structure remains as X, it will be tagged building=X and
amenity=Y.

This approach works in both cases, the tagging on the identical polygon, or the tagging being on the
surrounding campus polygon and the building inside.

tom

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Re: Adding leisure=sports_hall to leisure=sports_centre page

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg


sent from a phone

On 7. Sep 2019, at 02:35, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

+1, this is exactly how I see it as well

Is this how the tag has been used in Rome and in other areas that you
know? I'd like to add this to the page Tag:leisure=sports_hall to help
clarify how it's different from a sports centre, but I want to confirm
that this is the "de facto" meaning.


I have to put the „exactly“ into relation, from my understanding the sports centre is a place on its own grounds, maybe outdoor, indoor or both (speaking of Rome it will mostly be outdoors), just as Chris wrote, and the sports hall is often part of a bigger structure like a school but it could also be part of a sports centre, and it might eventually be standalone as well. The main difference is that a sports hall is about a single building made for sports, often part of a bigger structure (which may not be a sport structure), while a sports centre is about a standalone feature in my understanding (but at least not in Tübingen as you will see). Unfortunately this reading was not backed up by actual mapping in Germany I have looked at, where sports halls had been double tagged as sports centres as well, sometimes not even with a specific building tag (or with a school building tag on a sports hall building)

eg in Tübingen:
no typological tags in 10 years and 8 versions:

one sports facility (in Tü) of a school is even tagged as stadium (and school building):

but if this is a stadium, most of the others I listed would qualify as well.

no sports related tags at all:

These are all public sports facilities of schools.

A privately run sports hall double tagged as sports centre:

Generally I think we shouldn’t mix up (as it is currently done in the town of Tübingen) „general“ sports facilities (which are typically accessible for everyone, provided they pay/become member of a sports association), with sports facilities in schools, which are at most in certain limited times accessible to other people than pupils. But this is wishful thinking, looking at the above examples.

Cheers Martin 


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Re: building typology vs usage

Frederik Ramm
In reply to this post by Tom Pfeifer
Hi,

On 07.09.2019 09:16, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
>> While in theory building=school could be reused as a hotel/pub (See
>> https://www.mcmenamins.com/kennedy-school) in that case the building
>> will be inside of a tourism=hotel polygon

Why would it - a standalone former school in a city that now houses
something else doesn't necessarily have to acquire a surrounding polygon.

On 9/7/19 10:40, Tom Pfeifer wrote:
> Please understand that the building typology is orthogonal to the usage
> of the building.
> Thus having both a building=X and leisure/amenity=X on the same polygon
> is not redundant.

It is true that this is the canonical way of dealing with things,
however it would be interesting to check how mappers and editing tools
actually use this. We might well find that everyone is confused about this.

When we say "a cafe in an old church" we think of a building that has
certain properties that make it discernible as a church even long after
it ceased to be one; however, depending on location and denomination,
you might also build a church using a blueprint for a plain community
centre. In that case would it still be building=church becasue that was
the original, intended use? What if apartments are put into an old
factory building - building=industrial and ...?

I think we cannot simply throw the distinction over board and therefore
I do not agree with Josh, but I also think the distinction is not really
well thought out/well implemented in OSM and needs clarification.

Bye
Frederik

--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail [hidden email]  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: Adding leisure=sports_hall to leisure=sports_centre page

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg


sent from a phone

> On 7. Sep 2019, at 09:28, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Per taginfo, building=yes is used 7500 times with leisure=pitch, and
> covered=yes is used 1017 times, so I suppose it's more common to match
> the pitch with the same outline as the building rather than using
> covered=yes and a separate building outline.
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/leisure=pitch#combinations


for German sports halls in schools, tagging a single covered pitch would not usually be a nice representation, because these places are optimized for versatility: you can do a lot of different sports, and you will usually find several overlapping pitches (marked in different colors). There will also be equipment for gymnastics (high bar, parallel bars, mattresses, ropes, ...) and whatever is taught.

Cheers Martin
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