Adding to OSM database from Streetviews

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Adding to OSM database from Streetviews

Tac Tacelosky
I'm almost at the point where I can look at one of my streetview images, see a feature (store, sign, etc.) that's not in the OSM database and tag it appropriately.

I'd like to get some feedback before diving into the actual 'bot' part that updates the OSM database via the API.  Some people I've met are somewhat hostile to the idea of what I've been working on, since even though I plan to license some of panoramic images I've taken as ODbL, the camera itself and the process for creating the images is closed.  I am also a North American reseller for the camera (www.diy-streetview.com)

Nonetheless, I'm sure many OSM folks use Canon and Nikon and other cameras to take pictures during field surveys, and it's permissible to use those cameras and their images as a reference for OSM data, and Photoshop is closed, etc., so I'm expecting that some people will welcome using street views.  My belief is that once these images are integrated, the quality and quantity of data in some areas will skyrocket. 

Besides the Newbies list, are there any people or lists people can suggest I participate in?  

Tac Tacelosky

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Re: Adding to OSM database from Streetviews

Richard Weait
On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 9:13 AM, Tac Tacelosky <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm almost at the point where I can look at one of my streetview images, see a feature (store, sign, etc.) that's not in the OSM database and tag it appropriately.

I'd like to get some feedback before diving into the actual 'bot' part that updates the OSM database via the API. Some people I've met are somewhat hostile to the idea of what I've been working on [ ... ]

Well you can stop right there then.  :-) 

A 'bot you say?  The newbies list is the perfect place for you to learn that a 'bot is not something for newbies to play with.  Please have a look at the following links.  It is important for you to understand that the path from idea to implementation will have to pass through both technical and community approval. 

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_Edits/Code_of_Conduct
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Guidelines

In those links you'll also find advice on further lists with whom you will have to collaborate. 

best regards,
Richard

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Re: Adding to OSM database from Streetviews

Serge Wroclawski-2
In reply to this post by Tac Tacelosky
I think this discussion has moved to the point where it should go on
the dev list, rather than the newbies list, but I'll start the
discussion anyway.

On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 9:13 AM, Tac Tacelosky <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I'm almost at the point where I can look at one of my streetview images, see
> a feature (store, sign, etc.) that's not in the OSM database and tag it
> appropriately.

Great.

> I'd like to get some feedback before diving into the actual 'bot' part that
> updates the OSM database via the API.

What do you mean by "bot"? What would be updating the API?

Any user contributions should be made with the user's own account, and
we have an API for that. Look at the oAuth work that's been done by
both iD and Maprouette.

> Some people I've met are somewhat
> hostile to the idea of what I've been working on, since even though I plan
> to license some of panoramic images I've taken as ODbL, the camera itself
> and the process for creating the images is closed.

I don't know who you've met, but when we talked, the issue was "Could
this be an extension of OSM itself, or a similar project where people
could contribute?" and my answer was that it was related to OSM but
not in the same scope. It's certainly important, but that if it was a
FLOSS project, then the processing and the image API needed to be made
available under FLOSS license terms.

At the time, even the display was using Google Streetview, and that it
was my opinion (while not a lawyer) that this would be frowned upon by
Google, and could be a potential problem for the project. I suggested
you have a new display made, and I offered to help find funders and
programmers for the work, so long as the image processing and display
were made available under the terms of a FLOSS license.

tl;dr

"I'm probably the guy yu're saying is negative, but in fact, I was
very enthusiastic about the project, and I offered my services and
money as long as the thing was made available as Open Source."


>  I am also a North
> American reseller for the camera (www.diy-streetview.com)

The issue of the cameras seems fine to me. There are many project
which have some components which are Free and others which are
proprietary. The issue is clearly separating out what's what.

- Serge

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Re: Adding to OSM database from Streetviews

Mike Thompson
What about writing a plugin for JOSM so that the video shows up in one window, and the location from which the frame was shot shows up in the JOSM map window?  That would be very useful.  This would leverage the existing editing functionality of JOSM and avoids having to deal with the API directly.

Mike




On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 7:57 AM, Serge Wroclawski <[hidden email]> wrote:
I think this discussion has moved to the point where it should go on
the dev list, rather than the newbies list, but I'll start the
discussion anyway.

On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 9:13 AM, Tac Tacelosky <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I'm almost at the point where I can look at one of my streetview images, see
> a feature (store, sign, etc.) that's not in the OSM database and tag it
> appropriately.

Great.

> I'd like to get some feedback before diving into the actual 'bot' part that
> updates the OSM database via the API.

What do you mean by "bot"? What would be updating the API?

Any user contributions should be made with the user's own account, and
we have an API for that. Look at the oAuth work that's been done by
both iD and Maprouette.

> Some people I've met are somewhat
> hostile to the idea of what I've been working on, since even though I plan
> to license some of panoramic images I've taken as ODbL, the camera itself
> and the process for creating the images is closed.

I don't know who you've met, but when we talked, the issue was "Could
this be an extension of OSM itself, or a similar project where people
could contribute?" and my answer was that it was related to OSM but
not in the same scope. It's certainly important, but that if it was a
FLOSS project, then the processing and the image API needed to be made
available under FLOSS license terms.

At the time, even the display was using Google Streetview, and that it
was my opinion (while not a lawyer) that this would be frowned upon by
Google, and could be a potential problem for the project. I suggested
you have a new display made, and I offered to help find funders and
programmers for the work, so long as the image processing and display
were made available under the terms of a FLOSS license.

tl;dr

"I'm probably the guy yu're saying is negative, but in fact, I was
very enthusiastic about the project, and I offered my services and
money as long as the thing was made available as Open Source."


>  I am also a North
> American reseller for the camera (www.diy-streetview.com)

The issue of the cameras seems fine to me. There are many project
which have some components which are Free and others which are
proprietary. The issue is clearly separating out what's what.

- Serge

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Re: Adding to OSM database from Streetviews

Rob Nickerson
In reply to this post by Tac Tacelosky
Hi,

The diy-streetview idea sounds great. For those people (like me) who missed the first few emails, you can view the thread at [1].

It seems to me that you want to create a tool for OSM contributors to view these diy-streetview images and then be able to tag amenities that then get added to the OSM database. As this requires manual intervention, I wouldn't call it a "bot" (this will just get people worked up). It would be either a plug-in for an existing editor, or a new map editor. Either way, the best place for this is the dev mailing list [2]. I'm always surprised at the level of content that is on the "newbie" list - often it's more complex than the "talk" mailing list!!

A couple of initial ideas come to mind:

1. Using Google viewer to show your DIY images for the intention of editing OSM may be against Googles Terms and Conditions (you would need to check), but the other issue is that it has Google's logo in the bottom corner - we don't want contributors thinking that they can copy data from Google Maps!

2. You would need to ensure that you are not duplicatiing data. Any editor would have to download existing OSM data to see if the amenity is already tagged.

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Re: Adding to OSM database from Streetviews

Tac Tacelosky
I've applied to the -dev list early this morning, not sure if I've been accepted yet, haven't seen any traffic from it, will post an introductory message when I am sure I'm on it.

Yes, "editor" is a much better term than "bot".  I'm making calls to the API to get the current list of objects, and am just about to make calls to create a new changeset.

But better really would be to figure out a way to integrate streetviews with a map editor, rather than the reverse.  For now, I'm simply adding a "Edit on OSM" link, though if there were a way to initiate a new node from the querystring then things would be much, much easier.  That's something I'll ask on the -dev list.

As far as using the Google Player goes, my reading of it is that it's permissible to use the Google Streetview Player to view non-Google images and follow their terms of use.  Just like I can use Internet Explorer to view a webpage and be subject to that webpage's rules.  However, we can't remove the link to Google, which will show the Google Streetview of that same lat/long.  And copying data from that image would not be permitted.

Tac
   


On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 1:30 PM, Rob Nickerson <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

The diy-streetview idea sounds great. For those people (like me) who missed the first few emails, you can view the thread at [1].

It seems to me that you want to create a tool for OSM contributors to view these diy-streetview images and then be able to tag amenities that then get added to the OSM database. As this requires manual intervention, I wouldn't call it a "bot" (this will just get people worked up). It would be either a plug-in for an existing editor, or a new map editor. Either way, the best place for this is the dev mailing list [2]. I'm always surprised at the level of content that is on the "newbie" list - often it's more complex than the "talk" mailing list!!

A couple of initial ideas come to mind:

1. Using Google viewer to show your DIY images for the intention of editing OSM may be against Googles Terms and Conditions (you would need to check), but the other issue is that it has Google's logo in the bottom corner - we don't want contributors thinking that they can copy data from Google Maps!

2. You would need to ensure that you are not duplicatiing data. Any editor would have to download existing OSM data to see if the amenity is already tagged.


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Re: Adding to OSM database from Streetviews

Rob Nickerson
Looking at Google's T&C's I would imagine the following is an issue:

2. Restrictions on Use.
(g) use the Products to create a database of places or other local listings information.

I would not worry too much though. As noted, this seems to be a great idea and I would hope that someone will be able to help you develop an alternate display software if they agree it is needed.

I don't think you need to licence the images as ODbL (in fact I think this would be incorrect for images), but some content licence that allows use for "tracing" in OSM would be helpful. Again ask on the dev list.

If you are struggling to work out the co-ordinates of the amenity, then you may find some ideas in section 3 of this article on Traffic Sign Recognition (item 2 in the google result)

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Traffic+Sign+Recognition+and+Localization+for+Databases+of+Traffic+Signs+Emil+Kr%C5%A1%C3%A1k+%C5%A0tefan+Toth

Traffic Sign Recognition and Localization for Databases of Traffic Signs Emil Kršák Štefan Toth

Although the software seems to be closed source, there is a video of it in action ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywyOWLXR01c ) and the paper provides the position calculations. :-)

Regards,
Rob




On 14 May 2013 18:42, Tac Tacelosky <[hidden email]> wrote:
I've applied to the -dev list early this morning, not sure if I've been accepted yet, haven't seen any traffic from it, will post an introductory message when I am sure I'm on it.

Yes, "editor" is a much better term than "bot".  I'm making calls to the API to get the current list of objects, and am just about to make calls to create a new changeset.

But better really would be to figure out a way to integrate streetviews with a map editor, rather than the reverse.  For now, I'm simply adding a "Edit on OSM" link, though if there were a way to initiate a new node from the querystring then things would be much, much easier.  That's something I'll ask on the -dev list.

As far as using the Google Player goes, my reading of it is that it's permissible to use the Google Streetview Player to view non-Google images and follow their terms of use.  Just like I can use Internet Explorer to view a webpage and be subject to that webpage's rules.  However, we can't remove the link to Google, which will show the Google Streetview of that same lat/long.  And copying data from that image would not be permitted.

Tac
   


On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 1:30 PM, Rob Nickerson <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

The diy-streetview idea sounds great. For those people (like me) who missed the first few emails, you can view the thread at [1].

It seems to me that you want to create a tool for OSM contributors to view these diy-streetview images and then be able to tag amenities that then get added to the OSM database. As this requires manual intervention, I wouldn't call it a "bot" (this will just get people worked up). It would be either a plug-in for an existing editor, or a new map editor. Either way, the best place for this is the dev mailing list [2]. I'm always surprised at the level of content that is on the "newbie" list - often it's more complex than the "talk" mailing list!!

A couple of initial ideas come to mind:

1. Using Google viewer to show your DIY images for the intention of editing OSM may be against Googles Terms and Conditions (you would need to check), but the other issue is that it has Google's logo in the bottom corner - we don't want contributors thinking that they can copy data from Google Maps!

2. You would need to ensure that you are not duplicatiing data. Any editor would have to download existing OSM data to see if the amenity is already tagged.



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Re: Adding to OSM database from Streetviews

Tac Tacelosky
Great finds, Rob, thanks. 

We've been toying with what would be necessary to have leaflet delivery streetview tiles to create a panoramic image.  Gut feeling is that there's probably a way to do it.  

Most other alternative are in Flash, e.g. KRPano.  Here's a streetview from DIY in KRPano:


I haven't gotten consistent results with the HTML5 version, but I think that's because my laptop doesn't have the right graphics card.

Tac



On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 2:34 PM, Rob Nickerson <[hidden email]> wrote:
Looking at Google's T&C's I would imagine the following is an issue:

2. Restrictions on Use.
(g) use the Products to create a database of places or other local listings information.

I would not worry too much though. As noted, this seems to be a great idea and I would hope that someone will be able to help you develop an alternate display software if they agree it is needed.

I don't think you need to licence the images as ODbL (in fact I think this would be incorrect for images), but some content licence that allows use for "tracing" in OSM would be helpful. Again ask on the dev list.

If you are struggling to work out the co-ordinates of the amenity, then you may find some ideas in section 3 of this article on Traffic Sign Recognition (item 2 in the google result)

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Traffic+Sign+Recognition+and+Localization+for+Databases+of+Traffic+Signs+Emil+Kr%C5%A1%C3%A1k+%C5%A0tefan+Toth

Traffic Sign Recognition and Localization for Databases of Traffic Signs Emil Kršák Štefan Toth

Although the software seems to be closed source, there is a video of it in action ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywyOWLXR01c ) and the paper provides the position calculations. :-)

Regards,
Rob




On 14 May 2013 18:42, Tac Tacelosky <[hidden email]> wrote:
I've applied to the -dev list early this morning, not sure if I've been accepted yet, haven't seen any traffic from it, will post an introductory message when I am sure I'm on it.

Yes, "editor" is a much better term than "bot".  I'm making calls to the API to get the current list of objects, and am just about to make calls to create a new changeset.

But better really would be to figure out a way to integrate streetviews with a map editor, rather than the reverse.  For now, I'm simply adding a "Edit on OSM" link, though if there were a way to initiate a new node from the querystring then things would be much, much easier.  That's something I'll ask on the -dev list.

As far as using the Google Player goes, my reading of it is that it's permissible to use the Google Streetview Player to view non-Google images and follow their terms of use.  Just like I can use Internet Explorer to view a webpage and be subject to that webpage's rules.  However, we can't remove the link to Google, which will show the Google Streetview of that same lat/long.  And copying data from that image would not be permitted.

Tac
   


On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 1:30 PM, Rob Nickerson <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

The diy-streetview idea sounds great. For those people (like me) who missed the first few emails, you can view the thread at [1].

It seems to me that you want to create a tool for OSM contributors to view these diy-streetview images and then be able to tag amenities that then get added to the OSM database. As this requires manual intervention, I wouldn't call it a "bot" (this will just get people worked up). It would be either a plug-in for an existing editor, or a new map editor. Either way, the best place for this is the dev mailing list [2]. I'm always surprised at the level of content that is on the "newbie" list - often it's more complex than the "talk" mailing list!!

A couple of initial ideas come to mind:

1. Using Google viewer to show your DIY images for the intention of editing OSM may be against Googles Terms and Conditions (you would need to check), but the other issue is that it has Google's logo in the bottom corner - we don't want contributors thinking that they can copy data from Google Maps!

2. You would need to ensure that you are not duplicatiing data. Any editor would have to download existing OSM data to see if the amenity is already tagged.




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