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Addressing SIG

Steve Coast-3

Hello

 

Maps have three basic components: Display (does it look nice?), Routing (Can I get from a to b?) and Geocoding (Where is this address?).

 

OSM is extremely good at the first one, and pretty good at the second one. But it’s pretty deficient in the third area: address data.

 

The question is, how can we fix this? Addresses are a big, big problem in terms of how much data we need to go collect. There are a few ways forward with outside commercial or government data, but they tend to be difficult because the data is patchy or licensed in ways that aren’t very compatible with OSM.

 

It seems like it would be a good idea to think about this from the bottom up in a community way, and this doesn’t really exist in OSM right now. It seems like we need better feedback loops to:

 

  1. Community can see where the address data is (and isn’t), because it’s not very obvious today when using osm.org
  2. Make the tools to add address data better so that it’s easier to fix.

 

To that end, here’s a tile server that highlights address data:

 

           http://ec2-52-50-19-165.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com/#10/39.7561/-104.9574

 

It shows roads with address data normally and kind-of hides other roads, to make it obvious that “something is wrong with this map”. We could have a tag (maybe it exists already) that says “this road doesn’t have addresses” and/or a tag that says “this road is complete”. (right now it’s just got Colorado and Utah in it).

 

When OSM started, the map looked very broken and incomplete because there was missing data all over the place. This created a large incentive to go fix the map. The idea with this tileserver is to do the same thing and make the map look broken to create a large incentive to fix it. If we, one day, switched the main osm.org site to using this rendering then it would create an urgent need to find all the addresses in the places where they exist. It could also be done on a temporary basis for a few weeks, or on a per-country basis or some other slow introduction to see if it worked. It’s just an idea.

 

On the tools side, there’s much that can be done to make collecting and entering addresses easier. I’ve been collecting UI/UX changes to tools (e.g. iD or Go Map!) that would make addresses better:

 

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Address_SIG

 

It also seems worthwhile to create a group of people interested in addressing in OSM (an address special interest group or working group) to push these ideas forward so that we can “finish” OSM by getting all the addresses done.

 

What do you think?

 

Best

 

Steve

 


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Re: Addressing SIG

James-2
It's a pretty cool concept, but doesn't necessarily invoke ALL addresses have been found, what happens if a few addresses are there? What happens if someone adds 1 or 2 addresses?

Pretty good QA tool I'm guessing?

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Re: Addressing SIG

Oleksiy Muzalyev
In reply to this post by Steve Coast-3
On the main osm.org site one can right-click on a building and select "Show address" or "Add a note here" . What if a new type of a note is introduced, a structured address note?

The structured address note entry form will consist of several input fields:

Building number: ...
Street (avenue): ...
Post index (zip code, postal code): ...
City (town, village): ...
Region (State, Canton, Department): ...
Country: ...

It could also include a captcha to prevent mass automated entries.

Usually people do know very well addresses of buildings in which they live, work, or which they visit. This way they will know that the OSM map is interested to map the correct postal address, since there is this readily available structured address entry form. So they can add an address without learning how to use a complex map editor.

Best regards,
Oleksiy

On 11/5/19 19:37, Steve Coast wrote:

Hello

 

Maps have three basic components: Display (does it look nice?), Routing (Can I get from a to b?) and Geocoding (Where is this address?).

 

OSM is extremely good at the first one, and pretty good at the second one. But it’s pretty deficient in the third area: address data.

 

The question is, how can we fix this? Addresses are a big, big problem in terms of how much data we need to go collect. There are a few ways forward with outside commercial or government data, but they tend to be difficult because the data is patchy or licensed in ways that aren’t very compatible with OSM.

 

It seems like it would be a good idea to think about this from the bottom up in a community way, and this doesn’t really exist in OSM right now. It seems like we need better feedback loops to:

 

  1. Community can see where the address data is (and isn’t), because it’s not very obvious today when using osm.org
  2. Make the tools to add address data better so that it’s easier to fix.

 

To that end, here’s a tile server that highlights address data:

 

           http://ec2-52-50-19-165.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com/#10/39.7561/-104.9574

 

It shows roads with address data normally and kind-of hides other roads, to make it obvious that “something is wrong with this map”. We could have a tag (maybe it exists already) that says “this road doesn’t have addresses” and/or a tag that says “this road is complete”. (right now it’s just got Colorado and Utah in it).

 

When OSM started, the map looked very broken and incomplete because there was missing data all over the place. This created a large incentive to go fix the map. The idea with this tileserver is to do the same thing and make the map look broken to create a large incentive to fix it. If we, one day, switched the main osm.org site to using this rendering then it would create an urgent need to find all the addresses in the places where they exist. It could also be done on a temporary basis for a few weeks, or on a per-country basis or some other slow introduction to see if it worked. It’s just an idea.

 

On the tools side, there’s much that can be done to make collecting and entering addresses easier. I’ve been collecting UI/UX changes to tools (e.g. iD or Go Map!) that would make addresses better:

 

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Address_SIG

 

It also seems worthwhile to create a group of people interested in addressing in OSM (an address special interest group or working group) to push these ideas forward so that we can “finish” OSM by getting all the addresses done.

 

What do you think?

 

Best

 

Steve

 


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Re: Addressing SIG

dieterdreist
Am Mi., 6. Nov. 2019 um 09:17 Uhr schrieb Oleksiy Muzalyev <[hidden email]>:
On the main osm.org site one can right-click on a building and select "Show address" or "Add a note here" . What if a new type of a note is introduced, a structured address note?

The structured address note entry form will consist of several input fields:

Building number: ...
Street (avenue): ...
Post index (zip code, postal code): ...
City (town, village): ...
Region (State, Canton, Department): ...
Country: ...

It could also include a captcha to prevent mass automated entries.

Usually people do know very well addresses of buildings in which they live, work, or which they visit. This way they will know that the OSM map is interested to map the correct postal address, since there is this readily available structured address entry form. So they can add an address without learning how to use a complex map editor.


I also believe it would be very benificial to call explicitly for address contributions from unregistered users of the map. I am seeing a lot of notes created by anonymous users, and providing a formalized way for address entry would likely make people more frequently provide this kind of information. If the form is structured, it could also be converted to actual osm data more quickly by mappers (i.e. this assumes that those anonymously contributed addresses would still have to be individually reviewed by mappers).

In order to get good address coverage, provided we prefer local knowledge over imported data, we must increase the contributor base. Notes have proven to be able to provide useful information from people who are reluctant to register.

Cheers
Martin

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Re: Addressing SIG

Tom Russell

Am Mi., 6. Nov. 2019 um 09:17 Uhr schrieb Oleksiy Muzalyev <[hidden email]>:

On the main osm.org site one can right-click on a building and select "Show address" or "Add a note here" . What if a new type of a note is introduced, a structured address note?

 

This is something I’ve been thinking about recently, with a slightly broader interest in building data more generally.

 

As part of an academic project (https://colouring.london/) looking at buildings in London in the UK, we’re thinking about how to collect various building data attributes. We’re not currently using OpenStreetMap data for our buildings, however I would be interested to look into ways of linking to, working with, or building on OSM in the future.

 

It might be interesting to create a lighter, more restricted user interface for editing the map, for example following the idea of an “Address” structured note, or to collect other data about buildings (number of storeys, commercial use). Or I could imagine a system that doesn’t edit OSM directly but creates a “review queue” of linked data which could feed into the main database as mappers work through it.

 

All early ideas - in any case, I’ll be interested to follow an Addressing SIG.

 

Best wishes,

Tom


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Re: Addressing SIG

General Discussion mailing list
For your usecase, Tom, perhaps Street-Complete would work for you if you turned on all the building-related quests and turned off the other quests?

On Wed, Nov 6, 2019 at 11:33 AM Tom Russell <[hidden email]> wrote:

Am Mi., 6. Nov. 2019 um 09:17 Uhr schrieb Oleksiy Muzalyev <[hidden email]>:

On the main osm.org site one can right-click on a building and select "Show address" or "Add a note here" . What if a new type of a note is introduced, a structured address note?

 

This is something I’ve been thinking about recently, with a slightly broader interest in building data more generally.

 

As part of an academic project (https://colouring.london/) looking at buildings in London in the UK, we’re thinking about how to collect various building data attributes. We’re not currently using OpenStreetMap data for our buildings, however I would be interested to look into ways of linking to, working with, or building on OSM in the future.

 

It might be interesting to create a lighter, more restricted user interface for editing the map, for example following the idea of an “Address” structured note, or to collect other data about buildings (number of storeys, commercial use). Or I could imagine a system that doesn’t edit OSM directly but creates a “review queue” of linked data which could feed into the main database as mappers work through it.

 

All early ideas - in any case, I’ll be interested to follow an Addressing SIG.

 

Best wishes,

Tom

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Re: Addressing SIG

cquest
In reply to this post by Steve Coast-3
We've been "addressing the address topic" for more than 5 years in France with our BANO project.

Here is an overlay I created back then to show existing and missing address data in OSM compared to available OSM compatible sources.


Green: the address is in OSM (and the named road too)
Blue: address is missing but the road name exist in OSM
Red: address missing and we found no road with that name nearby

If you want to make missing data obvious, you should no dimm the shapes, but make them highly visible.
The goal with the above rendering became "dégommer du rouge" (get rid of red).


Le mar. 5 nov. 2019 à 19:43, Steve Coast <[hidden email]> a écrit :

Hello

 

Maps have three basic components: Display (does it look nice?), Routing (Can I get from a to b?) and Geocoding (Where is this address?).

 

OSM is extremely good at the first one, and pretty good at the second one. But it’s pretty deficient in the third area: address data.

 

The question is, how can we fix this? Addresses are a big, big problem in terms of how much data we need to go collect. There are a few ways forward with outside commercial or government data, but they tend to be difficult because the data is patchy or licensed in ways that aren’t very compatible with OSM.

 

It seems like it would be a good idea to think about this from the bottom up in a community way, and this doesn’t really exist in OSM right now. It seems like we need better feedback loops to:

 

  1. Community can see where the address data is (and isn’t), because it’s not very obvious today when using osm.org
  2. Make the tools to add address data better so that it’s easier to fix.

 

To that end, here’s a tile server that highlights address data:

 

           http://ec2-52-50-19-165.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com/#10/39.7561/-104.9574

 

It shows roads with address data normally and kind-of hides other roads, to make it obvious that “something is wrong with this map”. We could have a tag (maybe it exists already) that says “this road doesn’t have addresses” and/or a tag that says “this road is complete”. (right now it’s just got Colorado and Utah in it).

 

When OSM started, the map looked very broken and incomplete because there was missing data all over the place. This created a large incentive to go fix the map. The idea with this tileserver is to do the same thing and make the map look broken to create a large incentive to fix it. If we, one day, switched the main osm.org site to using this rendering then it would create an urgent need to find all the addresses in the places where they exist. It could also be done on a temporary basis for a few weeks, or on a per-country basis or some other slow introduction to see if it worked. It’s just an idea.

 

On the tools side, there’s much that can be done to make collecting and entering addresses easier. I’ve been collecting UI/UX changes to tools (e.g. iD or Go Map!) that would make addresses better:

 

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Address_SIG

 

It also seems worthwhile to create a group of people interested in addressing in OSM (an address special interest group or working group) to push these ideas forward so that we can “finish” OSM by getting all the addresses done.

 

What do you think?

 

Best

 

Steve

 

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Re: Addressing SIG

Mateusz Konieczny-3
In reply to this post by General Discussion mailing list
and https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/StreetComplete
for more info, including full list of available predefined tasks.

6 Nov 2019, 20:40 by [hidden email]:
For your usecase, Tom, perhaps Street-Complete would work for you if you turned on all the building-related quests and turned off the other quests?

On Wed, Nov 6, 2019 at 11:33 AM Tom Russell <[hidden email]> wrote:

Am Mi., 6. Nov. 2019 um 09:17 Uhr schrieb Oleksiy Muzalyev <[hidden email]>:

On the main osm.org site one can right-click on a building and select "Show address" or "Add a note here" . What if a new type of a note is introduced, a structured address note?

 

This is something I’ve been thinking about recently, with a slightly broader interest in building data more generally.

 

As part of an academic project (https://colouring.london/) looking at buildings in London in the UK, we’re thinking about how to collect various building data attributes. We’re not currently using OpenStreetMap data for our buildings, however I would be interested to look into ways of linking to, working with, or building on OSM in the future.

 

It might be interesting to create a lighter, more restricted user interface for editing the map, for example following the idea of an “Address” structured note, or to collect other data about buildings (number of storeys, commercial use). Or I could imagine a system that doesn’t edit OSM directly but creates a “review queue” of linked data which could feed into the main database as mappers work through it.

 

All early ideas - in any case, I’ll be interested to follow an Addressing SIG.

 

Best wishes,

Tom

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Re: Addressing SIG

Yves-2
In reply to this post by cquest
Wait,. .. when was the 'noname' layer gone?
Yves

Le 7 novembre 2019 08:06:27 GMT+01:00, Christian Quest <[hidden email]> a écrit :
We've been "addressing the address topic" for more than 5 years in France with our BANO project.

Here is an overlay I created back then to show existing and missing address data in OSM compared to available OSM compatible sources.


Green: the address is in OSM (and the named road too)
Blue: address is missing but the road name exist in OSM
Red: address missing and we found no road with that name nearby

If you want to make missing data obvious, you should no dimm the shapes, but make them highly visible.
The goal with the above rendering became "dégommer du rouge" (get rid of red).


Le mar. 5 nov. 2019 à 19:43, Steve Coast <[hidden email]> a écrit :

Hello

 

Maps have three basic components: Display (does it look nice?), Routing (Can I get from a to b?) and Geocoding (Where is this address?).

 

OSM is extremely good at the first one, and pretty good at the second one. But it’s pretty deficient in the third area: address data.

 

The question is, how can we fix this? Addresses are a big, big problem in terms of how much data we need to go collect. There are a few ways forward with outside commercial or government data, but they tend to be difficult because the data is patchy or licensed in ways that aren’t very compatible with OSM.

 

It seems like it would be a good idea to think about this from the bottom up in a community way, and this doesn’t really exist in OSM right now. It seems like we need better feedback loops to:

 

  1. Community can see where the address data is (and isn’t), because it’s not very obvious today when using osm.org
  2. Make the tools to add address data better so that it’s easier to fix.

 

To that end, here’s a tile server that highlights address data:

 

           http://ec2-52-50-19-165.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com/#10/39.7561/-104.9574

 

It shows roads with address data normally and kind-of hides other roads, to make it obvious that “something is wrong with this map”. We could have a tag (maybe it exists already) that says “this road doesn’t have addresses” and/or a tag that says “this road is complete”. (right now it’s just got Colorado and Utah in it).

 

When OSM started, the map looked very broken and incomplete because there was missing data all over the place. This created a large incentive to go fix the map. The idea with this tileserver is to do the same thing and make the map look broken to create a large incentive to fix it. If we, one day, switched the main osm.org site to using this rendering then it would create an urgent need to find all the addresses in the places where they exist. It could also be done on a temporary basis for a few weeks, or on a per-country basis or some other slow introduction to see if it worked. It’s just an idea.

 

On the tools side, there’s much that can be done to make collecting and entering addresses easier. I’ve been collecting UI/UX changes to tools (e.g. iD or Go Map!) that would make addresses better:

 

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Address_SIG

 

It also seems worthwhile to create a group of people interested in addressing in OSM (an address special interest group or working group) to push these ideas forward so that we can “finish” OSM by getting all the addresses done.

 

What do you think?

 

Best

 

Steve

 

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Re: Addressing SIG

marc marc
In reply to this post by cquest
Hello,

> We've been "addressing the address topic" for more than
> 5 years in France with our BANO project.

and despite the amount of opendata information available, 5 years later,
there is still a lot of red (missing road name or mismatch between
osm and opendata).

I agree with the original author: there is a lack of a simple tool
to contribute more effectively to addresses.
for example a new contributor has no way to validate the name of a
street from the opendata. Osmose and BANO layers are good advanced tools
but are not adapted to this kind of beginner audience but also out of
their sight.

there is also a lack of awareness that missing addresses are
a lack of osm compared to some proprietary solutions.

Regards,
Marc
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Re: Addressing SIG

SimonPoole

The issue with addresses is definitely not due to a lack of tools for OSM contributors. For example https://regio-osm.de/hausnummerauswertung/anzeige_dynamisch.html?land=Schweiz&lon=8.71423&lat=47.05777&zoom=8&layers=B0000 which covers essentially all the analytics needed for comparison with open data datasets and that since years (not mention the various address QA layers available, again since years). On the data entry side there are good tools both for surveying, import and conflation en masse.

What might be missing is simpler variant of https://osmybiz.osm.ch/#/18/47.40514/8.40289 (I actually have the domain addmyaddress.org stashed away somewhere for that), but while it would be nice to provide a simple facility for people to check and potentially add their address, it is clear that the targeted long tail is not going to make a substantial difference in coverage.

So what it really boils down to is grunt work*time (and that is even true for imports). In Central Europe we are well on the way to acceptable coverage, given a couple of years more I suspect it will be really good. Nearly everywhere else (special case the US, and apologies to all the the exceptions to "nearly everywhere") we are missing essential metadata that should come first, aka road names and references, POIs, places and so on, essentially all the stuff that building doodling and ML doesn't provide, but is essential to actually having a usable map.

Simon

Am 07.11.2019 um 13:18 schrieb marc marc:
Hello,

We've been "addressing the address topic" for more than 
5 years in France with our BANO project.
and despite the amount of opendata information available, 5 years later,
there is still a lot of red (missing road name or mismatch between
osm and opendata).

I agree with the original author: there is a lack of a simple tool
to contribute more effectively to addresses.
for example a new contributor has no way to validate the name of a 
street from the opendata. Osmose and BANO layers are good advanced tools 
but are not adapted to this kind of beginner audience but also out of 
their sight.

there is also a lack of awareness that missing addresses are
a lack of osm compared to some proprietary solutions.

Regards,
Marc
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Re: Addressing SIG

SimonPoole
Just as a further data point for the discussion: we are currently adding
roughly 10'000'000 addresses per year relatively constant since 2013,
with some exceptions due to imports (mainly NL in 2014 I believe).



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Re: Addressing SIG

marc marc
In reply to this post by SimonPoole
Hello,

Simon Poole :
> The issue with addresses is definitely not due to a lack of tools
> for OSM contributors. For example
> https://regio-osm.de/hausnummerauswertung/anzeige_dynamisch.html?land=Schweiz&lon=8.71423&lat=47.05777&zoom=8&layers=B0000

lack of tools not only mean "no tool exist",
it also means "tool not found for the contributor"

how can the new contributor wishing to add an address find this tool?
there's no way he'll find it. it's an advanced tool for the 1%
of the most motivated contributors of for newbie at a mapping party.
the other clicks on edit or note. it is osm.org's ergonomics it-self
and/or the greeting message during registration that must be improved
so that the new contributor can find the tool best suited to his
contribution

Regards,
Marc
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Re: Addressing SIG

SimonPoole

Am 08.11.2019 um 13:19 schrieb marc marc:

> Hello,
>
> Simon Poole :
>> The issue with addresses is definitely not due to a lack of tools
>> for OSM contributors. For example
>> https://regio-osm.de/hausnummerauswertung/anzeige_dynamisch.html?land=Schweiz&lon=8.71423&lat=47.05777&zoom=8&layers=B0000
> lack of tools not only mean "no tool exist",
> it also means "tool not found for the contributor"
>
> how can the new contributor wishing to add an address find this tool?
> there's no way he'll find it. it's an advanced tool for the 1%
> of the most motivated contributors of for newbie at a mapping party.
> the other clicks on edit or note. it is osm.org's ergonomics it-self
> and/or the greeting message during registration that must be improved
> so that the new contributor can find the tool best suited to his
> contribution
That doesn't make the slightest difference, because the only people
adding addresses in any meaningful way are those 1% of contributors.

Just imagine that we increase the number of new OSM contributors by an
order of magnitude, to ~2'000'000 per year, and just as magically we get
them to make the single edit they typically make to be adding an
address, instead of whatever they actually wanted to do. Even then, in
the as good as it gets fantasy scenario, it would only be 20% of the
current run rate. And that in turn is probably an order of magnitude or
so too low for Steve (aka 50 years or so to "complete" world wide coverage).

Simon


> Regards,
> Marc
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Re: Addressing SIG

marc marc
Simon Poole:
>> how can the new contributor wishing to add an address find this tool?

> That doesn't make the slightest difference, because the only people
> adding addresses in any meaningful way are those 1% of contributors.

it's the problem of the egg and the chicken :
if effective tools were accessible to 2% 3% 10% of contributors,
then the speed would be multiplied by 2, 3 or 10

A more effective contribution would be to consider 3 types
of location/contributor:

- those where the opendata is of quality: we should talk about import

- those where the opendata exists but where the import has not been
accepted and/or not yet done and/or new address exist: the "normal"
contributor (99%) should be able to easily access the opendata in
an editor and validate in one click if it is correct. or correct
the position easily. osmose opendata-fork allow that but it'sn't
a editor that newbies find when surfing on osm.org.
and only a very few location are listed for addr.

- those where the opendata does not exist: a drop-down list
to avoid having to rewrite the street name is a minimum.
It also avoid typo and letter case.

Thinking about the time spent on the addresses I added,
I think I could have been much more efficient for both those
added by survey and those from opendata.
so by spending the same amount of time on it, I could have added
a lot more. And it would have been much more motivating to do it
often.

Regards,
Marc
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Re: Addressing SIG

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by SimonPoole


sent from a phone

> On 8. Nov 2019, at 13:59, Simon Poole <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Just imagine that we increase the number of new OSM contributors by an
> order of magnitude, to ~2'000'000 per year, and just as magically we get
> them to make the single edit they typically make to be adding an
> address


imagine every facebook user would put their home address, or every business owner their business address. To make this happen, the procedure must be dead simple, and not require you understand an editor, or use a complex website with bells and whistles, but so overwhelming to my grand aunt that she will close the page as soon as she finds the button to do so.

We could announce a campaign, “citizen mapping project collects all the addresses in the world and provides them freely to everybody” or similar.

Cheers Martin
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Re: Addressing SIG

stevea
I wouldn't say "all" addresses, as Facebook isn't "all" of us.  Also, it's an ambition, a gleam in a collective eye, a vision, something ahead in the future as a goal.  There will be, rightly, many paths to get there, rather than a single one.  This is true of any major goal in OSM.

SteveA

> On Nov 8, 2019, at 3:44 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:
> We could announce a campaign, “citizen mapping project collects all the addresses in the world and provides them freely to everybody” or similar.


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Re: Addressing SIG

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

> On 9. Nov 2019, at 00:48, stevea <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I wouldn't say "all" addresses, as Facebook isn't "all" of us.  


of course, I apologize if this came along like a campaign just with facebook, it was just an example that facebook was mentioned, because they are our biggest data user (Apple as well, but they don’t use OpenStreetMap data in their most  important markets, AFAIK). Collecting _all_ addresses is a project goal (it’s part of mapping the whole world), and was not referring specifically to facebook, nor had I imagined a campaign just with facebook (if they are interested in this anyway), making such an announcement could be an occasion for the media in general for featuring OpenStreetMap. The people vs. Big Tech etc.

Cheers Martin
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Re: Addressing SIG

stevea
Nicely answered, I appreciate that!
SteveA

> On Nov 8, 2019, at 4:02 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> On 9. Nov 2019, at 00:48, stevea <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I wouldn't say "all" addresses, as Facebook isn't "all" of us.  
>
>
> of course, I apologize if this came along like a campaign just with facebook, it was just an example that facebook was mentioned, because they are our biggest data user (Apple as well, but they don’t use OpenStreetMap data in their most  important markets, AFAIK). Collecting _all_ addresses is a project goal (it’s part of mapping the whole world), and was not referring specifically to facebook, nor had I imagined a campaign just with facebook (if they are interested in this anyway), making such an announcement could be an occasion for the media in general for featuring OpenStreetMap. The people vs. Big Tech etc.
>
> Cheers Martin


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