Allotments plot / lot tagging and ref?

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Allotments plot / lot tagging and ref?

Joseph Eisenberg
The current wiki page for landuse=allotments
(https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dallotments) states
that one should "Use allotments=plot and/or boundary=lot for an
individual plot and lot=number_of_plot for number of plot."

However, the wiki page for allotments=plot
(https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:allotments%3Dplot) states
"You may want to use the ref=* to indicate the number assigned to your
plot."

It appears there are over 3000 uses of lot=<number>, mostly in
combination with "boundary=*" or "allotments=*"
(https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/?key=lot)

But there are 6 559 uses of "ref=*" in combination with
allotments=plot (so 57% of allotments=plot have a ref).

The other interesting fact is that the proposal page for
allotments=plot and the wiki page both show this as an "approved" tag,
however there were 8 opposing votes and only 9 approving votes in the
14 day voting period, so it should have been marked as rejected back
in 2013. Perhaps the status should be changed to "in use", since it is
used 11,000 times.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:allotments%3Dplot

- Joseph

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Re: Allotments plot / lot tagging and ref?

Paul Allen
On Sun, 6 Jan 2019 at 23:46, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
The current wiki page for landuse=allotments
(https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dallotments) states
that one should "Use allotments=plot and/or boundary=lot for an
individual plot and lot=number_of_plot for number of plot."

It has changed since I looked at it several months ago (or my memory of it has).  I don't
remember boundary=lot or lot=number_of_plot.

However, the wiki page for allotments=plot
(https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:allotments%3Dplot) states
"You may want to use the ref=* to indicate the number assigned to your
plot."

That I remember.  And found it to be of little value as it didn't render and wasn't displayed by iD.

The other interesting fact is that the proposal page for

Ah, the proposal page.  Last time I looked it had a link to an example, created by the
proposer.  Which didn't use ref=* but did use name=*.  The name IS displayed by iD,
but isn't rendered.  So, for the sake of my sanity, I used name as well as ref so I could see
what I was doing.

I should also point out that the name of the plot in the example made it clear it was a memorial
plot (something like "Fred J Bloggs Memorial Plot").  Using the name of the person utilizing the
plot would possibly breach data protection legislation.  Just saying, for those tempted to do
that.

allotments=plot and the wiki page both show this as an "approved" tag,
however there were 8 opposing votes and only 9 approving votes in the
14 day voting period, so it should have been marked as rejected back
in 2013. Perhaps the status should be changed to "in use", since it is
used 11,000 times.

Yeah, the proposer was naughty.  But it's now a de facto tag anyway and should be documented
as such.  One day plots may even be rendered, but I'm not holding my breath.

--
Paul


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Re: Allotments plot / lot tagging and ref?

Joseph Eisenberg
“One day plots may even be rendered, but I'm not holding my breath.”

I’m working on the SQL query right now... but I thought we should discuss this here first.

Re: name=* for plots: I didn’t expect an individual plot to have a name. But if this is possible it should be documented on the wiki page too.
On Mon, Jan 7, 2019 at 8:59 AM Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Sun, 6 Jan 2019 at 23:46, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
The current wiki page for landuse=allotments
(https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dallotments) states
that one should "Use allotments=plot and/or boundary=lot for an
individual plot and lot=number_of_plot for number of plot."

It has changed since I looked at it several months ago (or my memory of it has).  I don't
remember boundary=lot or lot=number_of_plot.

However, the wiki page for allotments=plot
(https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:allotments%3Dplot) states
"You may want to use the ref=* to indicate the number assigned to your
plot."

That I remember.  And found it to be of little value as it didn't render and wasn't displayed by iD.

The other interesting fact is that the proposal page for

Ah, the proposal page.  Last time I looked it had a link to an example, created by the
proposer.  Which didn't use ref=* but did use name=*.  The name IS displayed by iD,
but isn't rendered.  So, for the sake of my sanity, I used name as well as ref so I could see
what I was doing.

I should also point out that the name of the plot in the example made it clear it was a memorial
plot (something like "Fred J Bloggs Memorial Plot").  Using the name of the person utilizing the
plot would possibly breach data protection legislation.  Just saying, for those tempted to do
that.

allotments=plot and the wiki page both show this as an "approved" tag,
however there were 8 opposing votes and only 9 approving votes in the
14 day voting period, so it should have been marked as rejected back
in 2013. Perhaps the status should be changed to "in use", since it is
used 11,000 times.

Yeah, the proposer was naughty.  But it's now a de facto tag anyway and should be documented
as such.  One day plots may even be rendered, but I'm not holding my breath.


--
Paul

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Re: Allotments plot / lot tagging and ref?

Anton Klim
I think iD might be rendering refs now, unless I misremember. Using ref seems more logical than coming up with a ref replacement just for allotments. 

Ant

7 янв. 2019 г., в 0:37, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> написал(а):

“One day plots may even be rendered, but I'm not holding my breath.”

I’m working on the SQL query right now... but I thought we should discuss this here first.

Re: name=* for plots: I didn’t expect an individual plot to have a name. But if this is possible it should be documented on the wiki page too.
On Mon, Jan 7, 2019 at 8:59 AM Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Sun, 6 Jan 2019 at 23:46, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
The current wiki page for landuse=allotments
(https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dallotments) states
that one should "Use allotments=plot and/or boundary=lot for an
individual plot and lot=number_of_plot for number of plot."

It has changed since I looked at it several months ago (or my memory of it has).  I don't
remember boundary=lot or lot=number_of_plot.

However, the wiki page for allotments=plot
(https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:allotments%3Dplot) states
"You may want to use the ref=* to indicate the number assigned to your
plot."

That I remember.  And found it to be of little value as it didn't render and wasn't displayed by iD.

The other interesting fact is that the proposal page for

Ah, the proposal page.  Last time I looked it had a link to an example, created by the
proposer.  Which didn't use ref=* but did use name=*.  The name IS displayed by iD,
but isn't rendered.  So, for the sake of my sanity, I used name as well as ref so I could see
what I was doing.

I should also point out that the name of the plot in the example made it clear it was a memorial
plot (something like "Fred J Bloggs Memorial Plot").  Using the name of the person utilizing the
plot would possibly breach data protection legislation.  Just saying, for those tempted to do
that.

allotments=plot and the wiki page both show this as an "approved" tag,
however there were 8 opposing votes and only 9 approving votes in the
14 day voting period, so it should have been marked as rejected back
in 2013. Perhaps the status should be changed to "in use", since it is
used 11,000 times.

Yeah, the proposer was naughty.  But it's now a de facto tag anyway and should be documented
as such.  One day plots may even be rendered, but I'm not holding my breath.


--
Paul

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Re: Allotments plot / lot tagging and ref?

Paul Allen
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg
On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 at 00:38, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
“One day plots may even be rendered, but I'm not holding my breath.”

I’m working on the SQL query right now... but I thought we should discuss this here first.

Excellent news.  Thanks for this.

Point of discussion: should ref=* be all there is or should name=* also be rendered in
a similar way that addr:name and addr:housenumber are rendered (with, I think, the
name rendered in preference to the number where space is tight)?

I'd have to dig out the photo I took of a drawing of plot assignments to get the exact
details, but my recollection of assignments in my local(ish) allotments (the only ones
I've mapped) plot 10a is also titled "Collective Orchard" (or some such).  And, as I
mentioned earlier, the guy who proposed the plot tag had mapped something like
"name=J Bloggs Memorial Allotment".

I think a case can be made for handling the name as well as the ref, but perhaps not a
very strong case.  And, TBH, just rendering the borders of the plots would be a big
improvement, so I'll take what I can get.

--
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Re: Allotments plot / lot tagging and ref?

Paul Allen
In reply to this post by Anton Klim
On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 at 06:45, Anton Klim <[hidden email]> wrote:
I think iD might be rendering refs now, unless I misremember.

I just checked, and iD doesn't display the ref, only the name.  But it no longer needs
an explicit area=yes to get the label in the centre of the plot rather than putting it along
the edge as though the closed way were a highway.
 
Using ref seems more logical than coming up with a ref replacement just for allotments.

Yes and no.  IIRC, ref has been pressed into use for things it was never intended to do
and caused some problems.  OTOH, it's now well-established so you're right that it
doesn't seem logical to invent a replacement, especially when the original proposal
(and its purportedly approved version) said to use ref=*.

--
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Re: Allotments plot / lot tagging and ref?

Christoph Hormann-2
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg
On Monday 07 January 2019, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
> The current wiki page for landuse=allotments
> (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dallotments) states
> that one should "Use allotments=plot and/or boundary=lot for an
> individual plot and lot=number_of_plot for number of plot."
>
> However, the wiki page for allotments=plot
> (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:allotments%3Dplot) states
> "You may want to use the ref=* to indicate the number assigned to
> your plot."

I am wondering about the practical verifiability of such numbers.  I
mean in OSM we do not map internal numbering systems of organizations
for their infrastructure if those are not manifested in the form of
signs visible to the outside observer.

If plot numbers are signed the question is why these are not considered
addresses.

--
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: Allotments plot / lot tagging and ref?

Paul Allen
On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 at 12:47, Christoph Hormann <[hidden email]> wrote:

I am wondering about the practical verifiability of such numbers.  I
mean in OSM we do not map internal numbering systems of organizations
for their infrastructure if those are not manifested in the form of
signs visible to the outside observer.

They are verifiable by asking the organization in charge of the allotments, as I initially did
when mapping some allotments.  Or there may be a hand-drawn map in the window of a hut
on the allotments, as I found when I later went up to survey the place.

There are situations where signage is not a requirement for mapping.   There are several named
bridges in my area, where the names are shown on OS OpendData StreetView (which we are
allowed to use and is avaiable as background imagery) but which do not have signs.

I find your "internal numbering systems of organizations" argument a little weak.  I cannot, in
general, walk into a private company and wander around unaccompanied, so knowiung their
numbering or rooms is not useful.  I can wander around my local allotments.  I can apply for an
allotment and be told that plots 4 and 7 are available and, if they are shown on a map, I can
wander around to inspect them without needing a guide.
 
If plot numbers are signed the question is why these are not considered
addresses.

How about because addr:housenumber makes little sense in the context of an allotment plot?
How about because allotments do not have postcodes?  How about because addresses are
generally a means of figuring out where to deliver physical mail and allotments are not on
postal delivery routes?  Even addr:unit would be stretching the definition of unit past its breaking
point.

--
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Re: Allotments plot / lot tagging and ref?

Christoph Hormann-2
On Monday 07 January 2019, Paul Allen wrote:
>
> They are verifiable by asking the organization in charge of the
> allotments, as I initially did
> when mapping some allotments.

Verifiability in OSM means *independent* verifiability based on
observations of the geographic reality.  Same as with any other kind of
proprietary ID.

> How about because allotments do not have postcodes?

That might depend on the country but AFAIK in many countries postal
codes cover the whole country.

> How about
> because addresses are
> generally a means of figuring out where to deliver physical mail and
> allotments are not on
> postal delivery routes?

There are many addresses that do not receive postal delivery - in
particular for example corporate infrastructure where mail is
collectively delivered to a single location while individual buildings
and other infrastructure still have their own addesses.

> Even addr:unit would be stretching the
> definition of unit past its breaking
> point.

I have not made any suggestion as to what kind of address tag to use but
if the plot number is signed and you invite your friends for a grilling
party at plot 42 that is definitely an address from my perspective.

--
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: Allotments plot / lot tagging and ref?

Joseph Eisenberg
I believe many areas of allotments have a single postal address assigned to the entire area, while the individual plots are not registered as official addresses.

Perhaps this explains why a different tag was used.
On Mon, Jan 7, 2019 at 10:41 PM Christoph Hormann <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Monday 07 January 2019, Paul Allen wrote:
>
> They are verifiable by asking the organization in charge of the
> allotments, as I initially did
> when mapping some allotments.

Verifiability in OSM means *independent* verifiability based on
observations of the geographic reality.  Same as with any other kind of
proprietary ID.

> How about because allotments do not have postcodes?

That might depend on the country but AFAIK in many countries postal
codes cover the whole country.

> How about
> because addresses are
> generally a means of figuring out where to deliver physical mail and
> allotments are not on
> postal delivery routes?

There are many addresses that do not receive postal delivery - in
particular for example corporate infrastructure where mail is
collectively delivered to a single location while individual buildings
and other infrastructure still have their own addesses.

> Even addr:unit would be stretching the
> definition of unit past its breaking
> point.

I have not made any suggestion as to what kind of address tag to use but
if the plot number is signed and you invite your friends for a grilling
party at plot 42 that is definitely an address from my perspective.

--
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: Allotments plot / lot tagging and ref?

Sérgio V.
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg
Hi, BTW, What is actually the difference between:

Tag:place=plot 
(Status: in use / wiki-start: 7 April 2015)
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:place%3Dplot
"Use the tag place=plot to identify a named plot is a tract or parcel of land owned or meant to be owned by some owner."

Tag:allotments=plot 
(Status: approved / wiki-start: 5 October 2013) 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:allotments%3Dplot
"The allotments=plot tag is used to demarcate an area within an allotment site given over to an individual or group. An allotment site is typically broken up into many of these allotment plots. Define an area within an area tagged as landuse=allotments."

What's the practical difference? I'm understanding it's inducing a subtle difference in a plot being owned (sold) or not yet.
But in both cases, the plot is empty, isnt' it? Their plot numbers are used just for sale purpose, arent'? They are not a permanent number as a further building number given by the municipality.

For Tag:place=plot says: "OSM does not aim to be a land registry. You can add plot data if you want but only where the plot boundaries are actually visible on the ground. "

What would be the purpose of mapping indivual empty plots? 
If it's for routing purposes, fine, I imagine someone should live over there. Then having a number would be reasonable.
If nobody lives there yet, say it's just a commercial allotment with empty plots yet, then mapping them wouldn't be a land registry?
In the case of mapping empty plots, would identification of plots make conflicts with further mapping of true buildings, or farmyards, constructed over them, that might be actually routed for someones address? 


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Sérgio - http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/smaprs


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Re: Allotments plot / lot tagging and ref?

Paul Allen
On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 at 14:57, Sérgio V. <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi, BTW, What is actually the difference between:

Tag:place=plot 
(Status: in use / wiki-start: 7 April 2015)
"Use the tag place=plot to identify a named plot is a tract or parcel of land owned or meant to be owned by some owner."

It is a plot of land that is owned.  Its purpose is as yet unrealized and it is as yet unused.  It
might end up with a house on it.  Depends what the owner intends to do with it and what zoning
permits.

Tag:allotments=plot 
(Status: approved / wiki-start: 5 October 2013) 
"The allotments=plot tag is used to demarcate an area within an allotment site given over to an individual or group. An allotment site is typically broken up into many of these allotment plots. Define an area within an area tagged as landuse=allotments."

Allotment plots ARE in use, as gardens/agriculture.  An allotment plot is for people who want to
be able to do some gardening but their residential property does not have a garden.  Their plot
is defined (growing plants).  They are in use (most of them).  They are not to be built on (although
the terms may permit a small garden shed).  They are not for any purpose other than gardening.

--
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Re: Allotments plot / lot tagging and ref?

Joseph Eisenberg
Many “allotments” in Central Europe have small cabins or even full-sized houses which are used as part-time residences. Take a look at the “allotments” around Vienna, Austria for example, or most any German city.

The Vienna allotments don’t seem to fit our wiki definition, but I think they may have started out as allotment gardens years ago and evolved into residential areas over time?
On Tue, Jan 8, 2019 at 12:37 AM Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 at 14:57, Sérgio V. <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi, BTW, What is actually the difference between:

Tag:place=plot 
(Status: in use / wiki-start: 7 April 2015)
"Use the tag place=plot to identify a named plot is a tract or parcel of land owned or meant to be owned by some owner."

It is a plot of land that is owned.  Its purpose is as yet unrealized and it is as yet unused.  It
might end up with a house on it.  Depends what the owner intends to do with it and what zoning
permits.

Tag:allotments=plot 
(Status: approved / wiki-start: 5 October 2013) 
"The allotments=plot tag is used to demarcate an area within an allotment site given over to an individual or group. An allotment site is typically broken up into many of these allotment plots. Define an area within an area tagged as landuse=allotments."

Allotment plots ARE in use, as gardens/agriculture.  An allotment plot is for people who want to
be able to do some gardening but their residential property does not have a garden.  Their plot
is defined (growing plants).  They are in use (most of them).  They are not to be built on (although
the terms may permit a small garden shed).  They are not for any purpose other than gardening.

--
Paul

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Re: Allotments plot / lot tagging and ref?

Paul Allen
On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 at 21:51, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

The Vienna allotments don’t seem to fit our wiki definition, but I think they may have started out as allotment gardens years ago and evolved into residential areas over time?

Back when I mapped some allotments, about a year ago, I came across something in the
wiki saying that allotment plots shouldn't be confused with some other type of plot (or maybe
it was some other type of allotment) which seems similar to what you describe for Vienna,
except I vaguely remember it was in Russia (but I could well be misremembering).  I can't find
it again, so it's probably been edited out of the wiki.

But i did find the Wikipedia entry about allotments, and the stuff about the Russian
equivalent seems to confirm my vague memories and what you describe for Vienna
to think of all the Russian oligarchs living in garden sheds on allotments.

--
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