Amazon Logistics edits

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Amazon Logistics edits

Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)-2
I've just looked at a number of Amazon Logistics in my local area. A lot of
service roads are getting added which on face value look perhaps to be
driveways but that tag hasn't been added. Just stinks of armchair mapping.
The users (three I spotted off the bat) all have the following   "I work for
Amazon Logistics. At Amazon Logistics, we've been utilizing OSM in some
cases related to our delivery programs. In connection with those delivery
programs, we have collected information that we think is valuable to the OSM
community such as names and info about new roads that are not currently in
the map today, new data on turn restrictions, and road connectivity, to name
a few. When we hear feedback, we've been editing to provide that information
for the benefit of the entire OSM user community. If you have more
questions, please contact [hidden email]" in their username
profiles but there is no link to what's really going on and what the basis
of the edits are.

Anyone else have concerns over benefits?

Cheers
Andy


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Re: Amazon Logistics edits

Dan S
"stinks of armchair mapping" - that sounds rather derogatory. My
understanding is that these are organised edits informed in
significant part by Amazon's own GPS logs from their delivery staff.
(Am I misunderstanding?) If so, referring to it as "armchair" is
irrelevant; either way, referring to it as "stinks" is just not very
nice. If they should be adding driveway tags then how about emailing
their nominated contact address and teaching them the good ways?

Best
Dan

Op ma 29 jul. 2019 om 09:37 schreef Andy Robinson <[hidden email]>:

>
> I've just looked at a number of Amazon Logistics in my local area. A lot of
> service roads are getting added which on face value look perhaps to be
> driveways but that tag hasn't been added. Just stinks of armchair mapping.
> The users (three I spotted off the bat) all have the following   "I work for
> Amazon Logistics. At Amazon Logistics, we've been utilizing OSM in some
> cases related to our delivery programs. In connection with those delivery
> programs, we have collected information that we think is valuable to the OSM
> community such as names and info about new roads that are not currently in
> the map today, new data on turn restrictions, and road connectivity, to name
> a few. When we hear feedback, we've been editing to provide that information
> for the benefit of the entire OSM user community. If you have more
> questions, please contact [hidden email]" in their username
> profiles but there is no link to what's really going on and what the basis
> of the edits are.
>
> Anyone else have concerns over benefits?
>
> Cheers
> Andy
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Talk-GB mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

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Re: Amazon Logistics edits

Gareth L
Hello,

Amazon are indeed adding service roads at quite a pace, although with gps from their drivers and aerial imagery to support.
As noted here https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2019-July/023252.html they are responding and soliciting to community feedback on their tagging, which I consider quite responsible. 

Driveways are a refinement of highway=service, so tagging it as highway service strikes me as a decent start to incrementing the detail of the map. So far I’ve only seen them add missing ways rather than alter existing ones, or revert some tagging they did on the ways they created following community feedback.

I agree with you, Andy, that their user profile boilerplate messages could be more helpful. An email address isn’t the most transparent way of seeing what concerns are being raised.

Gareth 

On 29 Jul 2019, at 09:43, Dan S <[hidden email]> wrote:

"stinks of armchair mapping" - that sounds rather derogatory. My
understanding is that these are organised edits informed in
significant part by Amazon's own GPS logs from their delivery staff.
(Am I misunderstanding?) If so, referring to it as "armchair" is
irrelevant; either way, referring to it as "stinks" is just not very
nice. If they should be adding driveway tags then how about emailing
their nominated contact address and teaching them the good ways?

Best
Dan

Op ma 29 jul. 2019 om 09:37 schreef Andy Robinson <[hidden email]>:

I've just looked at a number of Amazon Logistics in my local area. A lot of
service roads are getting added which on face value look perhaps to be
driveways but that tag hasn't been added. Just stinks of armchair mapping.
The users (three I spotted off the bat) all have the following   "I work for
Amazon Logistics. At Amazon Logistics, we've been utilizing OSM in some
cases related to our delivery programs. In connection with those delivery
programs, we have collected information that we think is valuable to the OSM
community such as names and info about new roads that are not currently in
the map today, new data on turn restrictions, and road connectivity, to name
a few. When we hear feedback, we've been editing to provide that information
for the benefit of the entire OSM user community. If you have more
questions, please contact [hidden email]" in their username
profiles but there is no link to what's really going on and what the basis
of the edits are.

Anyone else have concerns over benefits?

Cheers
Andy


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Re: Amazon Logistics edits

Jez Nicholson
This can be where having the OSMUK organisation comes in useful. It gives a focal point to discuss organisation to organisation. We will continue to open a channel of communication.

Personally, I'm excited that Amazon are both users of, and contributing back to OSM. As long as they behave as a good citizen.

- Jez

On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 10:29 Gareth L, <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello,

Amazon are indeed adding service roads at quite a pace, although with gps from their drivers and aerial imagery to support.
As noted here https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2019-July/023252.html they are responding and soliciting to community feedback on their tagging, which I consider quite responsible. 

Driveways are a refinement of highway=service, so tagging it as highway service strikes me as a decent start to incrementing the detail of the map. So far I’ve only seen them add missing ways rather than alter existing ones, or revert some tagging they did on the ways they created following community feedback.

I agree with you, Andy, that their user profile boilerplate messages could be more helpful. An email address isn’t the most transparent way of seeing what concerns are being raised.

Gareth 

On 29 Jul 2019, at 09:43, Dan S <[hidden email]> wrote:

"stinks of armchair mapping" - that sounds rather derogatory. My
understanding is that these are organised edits informed in
significant part by Amazon's own GPS logs from their delivery staff.
(Am I misunderstanding?) If so, referring to it as "armchair" is
irrelevant; either way, referring to it as "stinks" is just not very
nice. If they should be adding driveway tags then how about emailing
their nominated contact address and teaching them the good ways?

Best
Dan

Op ma 29 jul. 2019 om 09:37 schreef Andy Robinson <[hidden email]>:

I've just looked at a number of Amazon Logistics in my local area. A lot of
service roads are getting added which on face value look perhaps to be
driveways but that tag hasn't been added. Just stinks of armchair mapping.
The users (three I spotted off the bat) all have the following   "I work for
Amazon Logistics. At Amazon Logistics, we've been utilizing OSM in some
cases related to our delivery programs. In connection with those delivery
programs, we have collected information that we think is valuable to the OSM
community such as names and info about new roads that are not currently in
the map today, new data on turn restrictions, and road connectivity, to name
a few. When we hear feedback, we've been editing to provide that information
for the benefit of the entire OSM user community. If you have more
questions, please contact [hidden email]" in their username
profiles but there is no link to what's really going on and what the basis
of the edits are.

Anyone else have concerns over benefits?

Cheers
Andy


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ael
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Re: Amazon Logistics edits

ael
In reply to this post by Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)-2
On Mon, Jul 29, 2019 at 09:35:36AM +0100, Andy Robinson wrote:
> I've just looked at a number of Amazon Logistics in my local area. A lot of
> service roads are getting added which on face value look perhaps to be
>  [snip]
> Anyone else have concerns over benefits?

I noticed a similar problem in a area that I regularly survey. I
contacted them and someone else from Amazon logistics replied
and corrected the mistakes.

Had the original Amazon armchair mapper looked at the history and the source
tags, he/she should have realized that the area was being actively
mapped with regular gps surveys.

Sadly, it is not only Amazon armchair mappers who neglect to do basic checks
before changing things.

So, yes, I have some concerns. But maybe they are doing useful work in
area without local mappers. Perhaps they should be encouraged to be more
careful?

ael



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Re: Amazon Logistics edits

ael
In reply to this post by Dan S
On Mon, Jul 29, 2019 at 09:42:27AM +0100, Dan S wrote:
> "stinks of armchair mapping" - that sounds rather derogatory. My
> understanding is that these are organised edits informed in
> significant part by Amazon's own GPS logs from their delivery staff.

In the case that I mentioned, it was certainly not from their own GPS
logs. The construction area was inaccesible, even on a bicycle. It
was definitely armchair mapping.

ael


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Re: Amazon Logistics edits

Dan S
Op ma 29 jul. 2019 om 11:22 schreef ael <[hidden email]>:
>
> On Mon, Jul 29, 2019 at 09:42:27AM +0100, Dan S wrote:
> > "stinks of armchair mapping" - that sounds rather derogatory. My
> > understanding is that these are organised edits informed in
> > significant part by Amazon's own GPS logs from their delivery staff.
>
> In the case that I mentioned, it was certainly not from their own GPS
> logs. The construction area was inaccesible, even on a bicycle. It
> was definitely armchair mapping.

That's useful to know, thanks

Dan

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Re: Amazon Logistics edits

Great Britain mailing list
In reply to this post by Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)-2
Andy

There is nothing wrong with adding just highway=service.

If you know that the OSM database can be improved by adding additional
tags, then do so. (Although I note you're not too sure, yourself)

As I understand it Amazon have gpx traces from their delivery vehicles
along roads which the general public have little or no access to. Their
mappers having been adding good detail

Of course, they make mistakes; who doesn't. If you spot any please
rectify or contact the mapper. I've had good feedback from them.

 From the evidence I've no "concerns".

DaveF

On 29/07/2019 09:35, Andy Robinson wrote:

> I've just looked at a number of Amazon Logistics in my local area. A lot of
> service roads are getting added which on face value look perhaps to be
> driveways but that tag hasn't been added. Just stinks of armchair mapping.
> The users (three I spotted off the bat) all have the following   "I work for
> Amazon Logistics. At Amazon Logistics, we've been utilizing OSM in some
> cases related to our delivery programs. In connection with those delivery
> programs, we have collected information that we think is valuable to the OSM
> community such as names and info about new roads that are not currently in
> the map today, new data on turn restrictions, and road connectivity, to name
> a few. When we hear feedback, we've been editing to provide that information
> for the benefit of the entire OSM user community. If you have more
> questions, please contact [hidden email]" in their username
> profiles but there is no link to what's really going on and what the basis
> of the edits are.
>
> Anyone else have concerns over benefits?
>
> Cheers
> Andy
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Talk-GB mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb


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Re: Amazon Logistics edits

Great Britain mailing list
In reply to this post by ael
Construction areas aren't inaccessible. They have constant traffic of
deliveries.
Please provide a link.

DaveF

On 29/07/2019 11:21, ael wrote:

> On Mon, Jul 29, 2019 at 09:42:27AM +0100, Dan S wrote:
>> "stinks of armchair mapping" - that sounds rather derogatory. My
>> understanding is that these are organised edits informed in
>> significant part by Amazon's own GPS logs from their delivery staff.
> In the case that I mentioned, it was certainly not from their own GPS
> logs. The construction area was inaccesible, even on a bicycle. It
> was definitely armchair mapping.
>
> ael
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Talk-GB mailing list
> [hidden email]
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Re: Amazon Logistics edits

Martin Wynne
In reply to this post by Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)-2
On 29/07/2019 09:35, Andy Robinson wrote:
> I've just looked at a number of Amazon Logistics in my local area. A lot of
> service roads are getting added which on face value look perhaps to be
> driveways but that tag hasn't been added.

Amazon have been asking for help with this, see:

  https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/jguthula/diary/390322

Martin.

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Re: Amazon Logistics edits

Great Britain mailing list
In reply to this post by Great Britain mailing list
On Mon, Jul 29, 2019 at 11:39:11AM +0100, Dave F wrote:
> Construction areas aren't inaccessible. They have constant traffic of
> deliveries.

This construction area is inaccesible for anything but large specialist
vehicles with all-terrain tyres. The construction workers are all
instructed to ask visitors to leave. There are locked gates, only
unlocked for construction vehicles to get through. It is a Health and
Safety issue, I suspect, and probably required by their insurance
company.  No doubt there are deliveries to the peripheral areas, but
that is nearly always by specialist building supplies companies with
suitable vehicles. I spoke informally in context, so it seems a bit
picky to question this. The particular roads that they marked
(residential, as I recall) were at that time bare ground tracks, fenced
off and were being used for access to other parts by the construction
vehicles.  Those details could not be seen on the satelite imagery which
happened to have very recent updates in this area.  Later they will
presumably be surfaced and become proper roads: the developers gave me a
copy of their plans.  As I recall, they are now tagged corrected as
construction roads.  As far as I am concerned, I don't think an access
tag on construction roads makes sense in any normal situation.
Construction implies that the access will vary over time.

> Please provide a link.

The link is my personal knowledge and my regular visits on bicycle with
gps. I occasionally do enter such areas to get a gps trace in advance of
the completion of the roads, but only with great care and caution, and
always leave if and when asked to do so. Sometimes site-managers give me
permission to collect a trace when I explain what I am doing.

Are you telling me that Amazon have driven a large non-construction
vehicle on these unfinished roads with locked gates and construction
workers around in working hours?

ael


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Re: Amazon Logistics edits

Great Britain mailing list
I'm aware how construction sites work.

Trades will occasionally have small items delivered, especially if
specialized or in an emergency.  A foreman I know had his kid's
Christmas present sent to site to keep the surprise.

Please provide an OSM link to the site.

DaveF

On 29/07/2019 12:25, ael via Talk-GB wrote:

> On Mon, Jul 29, 2019 at 11:39:11AM +0100, Dave F wrote:
>> Construction areas aren't inaccessible. They have constant traffic of
>> deliveries.
> This construction area is inaccesible for anything but large specialist
> vehicles with all-terrain tyres. The construction workers are all
> instructed to ask visitors to leave. There are locked gates, only
> unlocked for construction vehicles to get through. It is a Health and
> Safety issue, I suspect, and probably required by their insurance
> company.  No doubt there are deliveries to the peripheral areas, but
> that is nearly always by specialist building supplies companies with
> suitable vehicles. I spoke informally in context, so it seems a bit
> picky to question this. The particular roads that they marked
> (residential, as I recall) were at that time bare ground tracks, fenced
> off and were being used for access to other parts by the construction
> vehicles.  Those details could not be seen on the satelite imagery which
> happened to have very recent updates in this area.  Later they will
> presumably be surfaced and become proper roads: the developers gave me a
> copy of their plans.  As I recall, they are now tagged corrected as
> construction roads.  As far as I am concerned, I don't think an access
> tag on construction roads makes sense in any normal situation.
> Construction implies that the access will vary over time.
>
>> Please provide a link.
> The link is my personal knowledge and my regular visits on bicycle with
> gps. I occasionally do enter such areas to get a gps trace in advance of
> the completion of the roads, but only with great care and caution, and
> always leave if and when asked to do so. Sometimes site-managers give me
> permission to collect a trace when I explain what I am doing.
>
> Are you telling me that Amazon have driven a large non-construction
> vehicle on these unfinished roads with locked gates and construction
> workers around in working hours?
>
> ael
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Talk-GB mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb


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Re: Amazon Logistics edits

Gregory Marler
I've exchanged a number of messages with the Amazon mappers and their team lead Jothirnadh. First of all, if anything isn't quite right then I would encourage the person who spots it to...
a) contact the editor about it (or better if you post a comment on the changeset)
b) add tags yourself to further clarify the way (OSM is a wiki).
c) a combination of the above.

Amazon are using OpenStreetMap (great) and they are putting in some work to improve it (great).
They've been a bit behind on widely communicating with the community, but they are slowly getting better. They're also working in a number of countries, where similar concerns are coming up, and they're replying in similar ways. They are keen to learn and do better.

Communication certainly helps people get better. Most (all?) of us have had something we've learnt from other mappers. Often we don't know a tag is used, or we don't know the map data is used in a certain way.

Amazon obviously have their specific interests in mapping, but so do all of us. You're unlikely to see me adding tags for voltage of an electricity line, but you may see me add the pylon.


Happy mapping everyone,
Gregory.



On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 at 13:10, Dave F via Talk-GB <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm aware how construction sites work.

Trades will occasionally have small items delivered, especially if
specialized or in an emergency.  A foreman I know had his kid's
Christmas present sent to site to keep the surprise.

Please provide an OSM link to the site.

DaveF

On 29/07/2019 12:25, ael via Talk-GB wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 29, 2019 at 11:39:11AM +0100, Dave F wrote:
>> Construction areas aren't inaccessible. They have constant traffic of
>> deliveries.
> This construction area is inaccesible for anything but large specialist
> vehicles with all-terrain tyres. The construction workers are all
> instructed to ask visitors to leave. There are locked gates, only
> unlocked for construction vehicles to get through. It is a Health and
> Safety issue, I suspect, and probably required by their insurance
> company.  No doubt there are deliveries to the peripheral areas, but
> that is nearly always by specialist building supplies companies with
> suitable vehicles. I spoke informally in context, so it seems a bit
> picky to question this. The particular roads that they marked
> (residential, as I recall) were at that time bare ground tracks, fenced
> off and were being used for access to other parts by the construction
> vehicles.  Those details could not be seen on the satelite imagery which
> happened to have very recent updates in this area.  Later they will
> presumably be surfaced and become proper roads: the developers gave me a
> copy of their plans.  As I recall, they are now tagged corrected as
> construction roads.  As far as I am concerned, I don't think an access
> tag on construction roads makes sense in any normal situation.
> Construction implies that the access will vary over time.
>
>> Please provide a link.
> The link is my personal knowledge and my regular visits on bicycle with
> gps. I occasionally do enter such areas to get a gps trace in advance of
> the completion of the roads, but only with great care and caution, and
> always leave if and when asked to do so. Sometimes site-managers give me
> permission to collect a trace when I explain what I am doing.
>
> Are you telling me that Amazon have driven a large non-construction
> vehicle on these unfinished roads with locked gates and construction
> workers around in working hours?
>
> ael
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Talk-GB mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb


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--
Gregory Marler
No More Grapes
07939 689 691

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Re: Amazon Logistics edits

Great Britain mailing list
It would be good if they could add address data. Probably not postcodes
- I assume they're a customer of Royal Mail's PAF, but house numbers &
names.

DaveF

On 29/07/2019 13:32, Gregory Marler wrote:

> I've exchanged a number of messages with the Amazon mappers and their team
> lead Jothirnadh. First of all, if anything isn't quite right then I would
> encourage the person who spots it to...
> a) contact the editor about it (or better if you post a comment on the
> changeset)
> b) add tags yourself to further clarify the way (OSM is a wiki).
> c) a combination of the above.
>
> Amazon are using OpenStreetMap (great) and they are putting in some work to
> improve it (great).
> They've been a bit behind on widely communicating with the community, but
> they are slowly getting better. They're also working in a number of
> countries, where similar concerns are coming up, and they're replying in
> similar ways. They are keen to learn and do better.
>
> Communication certainly helps people get better. Most (all?) of us have had
> something we've learnt from other mappers. Often we don't know a tag is
> used, or we don't know the map data is used in a certain way.
>
> Amazon obviously have their specific interests in mapping, but so do all of
> us. You're unlikely to see me adding tags for voltage of an electricity
> line, but you may see me add the pylon.
>
>
> Happy mapping everyone,
> Gregory.


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Re: Amazon Logistics edits

Silent Spike
I've seen a suggestion somewhere to contact amazon about the possibility of running street imagery cameras. Would be a great way to get many local details available for so-called armchair mappers.

On Mon, Jul 29, 2019 at 2:14 PM Dave F via Talk-GB <[hidden email]> wrote:
It would be good if they could add address data. Probably not postcodes
- I assume they're a customer of Royal Mail's PAF, but house numbers &
names.

DaveF

On 29/07/2019 13:32, Gregory Marler wrote:
> I've exchanged a number of messages with the Amazon mappers and their team
> lead Jothirnadh. First of all, if anything isn't quite right then I would
> encourage the person who spots it to...
> a) contact the editor about it (or better if you post a comment on the
> changeset)
> b) add tags yourself to further clarify the way (OSM is a wiki).
> c) a combination of the above.
>
> Amazon are using OpenStreetMap (great) and they are putting in some work to
> improve it (great).
> They've been a bit behind on widely communicating with the community, but
> they are slowly getting better. They're also working in a number of
> countries, where similar concerns are coming up, and they're replying in
> similar ways. They are keen to learn and do better.
>
> Communication certainly helps people get better. Most (all?) of us have had
> something we've learnt from other mappers. Often we don't know a tag is
> used, or we don't know the map data is used in a certain way.
>
> Amazon obviously have their specific interests in mapping, but so do all of
> us. You're unlikely to see me adding tags for voltage of an electricity
> line, but you may see me add the pylon.
>
>
> Happy mapping everyone,
> Gregory.


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Re: Amazon Logistics edits

Andy Townsend
In reply to this post by Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)-2
On 29/07/2019 09:35, Andy Robinson wrote:
> I've just looked at a number of Amazon Logistics in my local area....

Just to give everyone a bit of a heads-up about the DWG's involvement
here - we got a number of messages about Amazon's mapping.  The biggest
immediate problem was their use of "motor_vehicle=yes" on
"highway=track" regardless of the actual legal access status.  To cut a
long story short, they have removed this where they've blanket added it,
and have since asked exactly how to map sort of thing (at
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/jguthula/diary/390322 and elsewhere).

The list of Amazon editors is quite long -
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Amazon_Logistics#Editors - and not
all are active in the UK.  I used overpass queries like
https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/Lea to check the edits.  With regard to the
"motor_vehicle=yes" issue, I contacted each of the Amazon mappers active
in the UK individually rather than going through a "manager" to try and
get them talking to the local community.  In order to get from edits
there to changeset discussion comments, click on an object on that map,
then on the changeset, then "changeset XML" and copy the "uid=" value
and use it in a URL such as
resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussion-comments?uid=9310279 .

One other issue that people have raised with these edits have been
"adding connectivity where there isn't any public connectivity" (i.e.
adding a "highway=service" or "highway=track" that is in reality a
private farm track, that connects two public roads).  Personally I
wouldn't assume that either of these had public access in England and
Wales* (Scotland has a different legal system), and I don't think that
we can blame Amazon for adding missing geometry but only some missing
tags.  Local mappers will still be needed to add these.  Amazon editors
tend to have their own "local area" so a variation of the overpass query
above can be used to identify newly added objects - I'm sure that some
people will be able to use local knowledge to say "well obviously way
XYZ should be access=private" and similar.

While looking at these issues I did notice quite a few other tracks and
rural service roads (driveways etc.) where the access tags looked a bit
unlikely - and there are of course many examples were designations
haven't been added (where that isn't open data, that needs survey).  I
notice that someone from the National Trust has written a diary entry
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/AJW92/diary/390378 to discuss how to
tag England and Wales "rights of way" designations.

Best Regards,

Andy (from the DWG)

* I'd suggest that it's also not correct to tag "access=private" on
newly traced farm etc. tracks - if the example above
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/120277748 is a "byway open to all
traffic" then access=yes or motor_vehicle=yes on there will be correct,
and "private" would be wrong (TROs notwithstanding).




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Re: Amazon Logistics edits

Andy Townsend
In reply to this post by ael
On 29/07/2019 11:21, ael wrote:
> In the case that I mentioned, it was certainly not from their own GPS
> logs.

A few examples I came across while looking at these with a DWG hat on
were also not from GPS logs.  In one case Amazon would have had to have
been delivering by tractor; in another the actual building they would
have been delivering to was first mapped in 2013 and was derelict then.

What I suspect that they were doing was "doing other mapping while they
were in the area" (which to be fair is pretty much what nearly everyone
else does too).

Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: Amazon Logistics edits

Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)-2
In reply to this post by Andy Townsend
Thanks Andy, that provides some useful context. As others have also pointed out new data is generally good for OSM and we can't expect all users to ever get all the tags right on a first pass. I'll be keeping a closer eye in my area and will make direct contact with mappers who seem to be routinely missing the important point. My biggest concern was your noted "adding connectivity where there isn't any public connectivity" point. It's almost impossible to see if a service road (especially private driveways) has any access rights without being on the ground and even then it might not say. Even a gps trace doesn’t confirm that there was permission to travel, just that they did. The question is whether it's better to have connectivity implied within the OSM database or to leave it out of OSM until you have a better understanding on the ground.

Cheers
Andy

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: 31 July 2019 15:53
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Amazon Logistics edits

On 29/07/2019 09:35, Andy Robinson wrote:
> I've just looked at a number of Amazon Logistics in my local area....

Just to give everyone a bit of a heads-up about the DWG's involvement
here - we got a number of messages about Amazon's mapping.  The biggest
immediate problem was their use of "motor_vehicle=yes" on
"highway=track" regardless of the actual legal access status.  To cut a
long story short, they have removed this where they've blanket added it,
and have since asked exactly how to map sort of thing (at
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/jguthula/diary/390322 and elsewhere).

The list of Amazon editors is quite long -
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Amazon_Logistics#Editors - and not
all are active in the UK.  I used overpass queries like
https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/Lea to check the edits.  With regard to the
"motor_vehicle=yes" issue, I contacted each of the Amazon mappers active
in the UK individually rather than going through a "manager" to try and
get them talking to the local community.  In order to get from edits
there to changeset discussion comments, click on an object on that map,
then on the changeset, then "changeset XML" and copy the "uid=" value
and use it in a URL such as
resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussion-comments?uid=9310279 .

One other issue that people have raised with these edits have been
"adding connectivity where there isn't any public connectivity" (i.e.
adding a "highway=service" or "highway=track" that is in reality a
private farm track, that connects two public roads).  Personally I
wouldn't assume that either of these had public access in England and
Wales* (Scotland has a different legal system), and I don't think that
we can blame Amazon for adding missing geometry but only some missing
tags.  Local mappers will still be needed to add these.  Amazon editors
tend to have their own "local area" so a variation of the overpass query
above can be used to identify newly added objects - I'm sure that some
people will be able to use local knowledge to say "well obviously way
XYZ should be access=private" and similar.

While looking at these issues I did notice quite a few other tracks and
rural service roads (driveways etc.) where the access tags looked a bit
unlikely - and there are of course many examples were designations
haven't been added (where that isn't open data, that needs survey).  I
notice that someone from the National Trust has written a diary entry
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/AJW92/diary/390378 to discuss how to
tag England and Wales "rights of way" designations.

Best Regards,

Andy (from the DWG)

* I'd suggest that it's also not correct to tag "access=private" on
newly traced farm etc. tracks - if the example above
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/120277748 is a "byway open to all
traffic" then access=yes or motor_vehicle=yes on there will be correct,
and "private" would be wrong (TROs notwithstanding).




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Re: Amazon Logistics edits

ael
In reply to this post by Andy Townsend
On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 04:20:31PM +0100, [hidden email] wrote:

> On 29/07/2019 11:21, ael wrote:
> > In the case that I mentioned, it was certainly not from their own GPS
> > logs.
>
> A few examples I came across while looking at these with a DWG hat on were
> also not from GPS logs.  In one case Amazon would have had to have been
> delivering by tractor; in another the actual building they would have been
> delivering to was first mapped in 2013 and was derelict then.
>
> What I suspect that they were doing was "doing other mapping while they were
> in the area" (which to be fair is pretty much what nearly everyone else does
> too).

Indeed. My case was
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/71388804#map=16/51.7817/-1.5188,
and as I said Amazon replied and adjusted.
They said explicitly that it was from "Maxar Premium Imagery (Beta)".

ael


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Re: Amazon Logistics edits

ael
In reply to this post by Great Britain mailing list
On Mon, Jul 29, 2019 at 01:12:24PM +0100, Dave F via Talk-GB wrote:
>
> Trades will occasionally have small items delivered, especially if
> specialized or in an emergency.  A foreman I know had his kid's Christmas
> present sent to site to keep the surprise.
>
> Please provide an OSM link to the site.

Already given in another reply:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/71388804#map=16/51.7817/-1.5188

Having refreshed my memory, they explicitly stated that it was from
Maxar Premium Imagery (Beta).

If you look at that imagery, it is pretty obvious that those roads are
no more than construction tracks as yet. Nearly the whole of that site
was mapped before any imagery was available from multiple visits with
fairly accurate gps.  Those gps tracks are public and can be inspected.
It is overdue for another visit.

ael


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