Amphitheatre or outdoor non-sports venue

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Amphitheatre or outdoor non-sports venue

John Willis
I’m trying to tag an outdoor venue I would call an https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphitheatre. It is a “natural” one, with a stage near a lake, with terraces seating for picnics or standing for a crowded performance. 

Here is the one I am mapping. it is inside a giant flower and amusement park. https://goo.gl/maps/x6K7y6z1n2s 2000 people?

One in a city park in San Diego. my father puts on a blues concert there. https://goo.gl/maps/zaBDyd2HZZ52 200 people?


No sports played there! 
 


Large camps, outdoor parks, and other places will have a outdoor stadium-like place, but has no ability to host a sporting event - it is a “performance” venue - people on a “stage" doing something for an audience: a music concert, standup, religious performance

Event Venue, music Venue, and proposals are abandoned. "Stadium" seems to be focused on sports, as it should be. Sports Arenas and stadiums can be adapted for music events, but like a movie theatre or performance hall, these are primarily a performance-only venue. these are outdoor versions of a performance hall. 

is there some amenity=* tag I am missing that I should be using? Putting “stadium” or sports venue on these seems pretty wrong. 

Javbw

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Re: Amphitheatre or outdoor non-sports venue

Hans De Kryger
We have a small one here in Glendale, Arizona 


Regards,
Hans

On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 10:04 PM, johnw <[hidden email]> wrote:
I’m trying to tag an outdoor venue I would call an https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphitheatre. It is a “natural” one, with a stage near a lake, with terraces seating for picnics or standing for a crowded performance. 

Here is the one I am mapping. it is inside a giant flower and amusement park. https://goo.gl/maps/x6K7y6z1n2s 2000 people?

One in a city park in San Diego. my father puts on a blues concert there. https://goo.gl/maps/zaBDyd2HZZ52 200 people?


No sports played there! 
 


Large camps, outdoor parks, and other places will have a outdoor stadium-like place, but has no ability to host a sporting event - it is a “performance” venue - people on a “stage" doing something for an audience: a music concert, standup, religious performance

Event Venue, music Venue, and proposals are abandoned. "Stadium" seems to be focused on sports, as it should be. Sports Arenas and stadiums can be adapted for music events, but like a movie theatre or performance hall, these are primarily a performance-only venue. these are outdoor versions of a performance hall. 

is there some amenity=* tag I am missing that I should be using? Putting “stadium” or sports venue on these seems pretty wrong. 

Javbw

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Re: Amphitheatre or outdoor non-sports venue

Shawn K. Quinn
In reply to this post by John Willis
On Wed, 2016-09-14 at 14:04 +0900, johnw wrote:
> I’m trying to tag an outdoor venue I would call
> an https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphitheatre. It is a “natural” one,
> with a stage near a lake, with terraces seating for picnics or
> standing for a crowded performance.
[...]

> Large camps, outdoor parks, and other places will have a outdoor
> stadium-like place, but has no ability to host a sporting event - it
> is a “performance” venue - people on a “stage" doing something for an
> audience: a music concert, standup, religious performance
>
>
> Event Venue, music Venue, and proposals are abandoned. "Stadium" seems
> to be focused on sports, as it should be. Sports Arenas and stadiums
> can be adapted for music events, but like a movie theatre or
> performance hall, these are primarily a performance-only venue. these
> are outdoor versions of a performance hall.
>
>
> is there some amenity=* tag I am missing that I should be using?
> Putting “stadium” or sports venue on these seems pretty wrong.

Is there anything about amenity=arts_centre that says it has to
necessarily be indoor?

I propose:

amenity=arts_centre and either:
arts_centre=ampitheatre or
arts_centre=outdoor


--
Shawn K. Quinn <[hidden email]>


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Re: Amphitheatre or outdoor non-sports venue

John Willis

On Sep 14, 2016, at 2:15 PM, Shawn K. Quinn <[hidden email]> wrote:


is there some amenity=* tag I am missing that I should be using?
Putting “stadium” or sports venue on these seems pretty wrong. 

Is there anything about amenity=arts_centre that says it has to
necessarily be indoor?

I propose:

amenity=arts_centre and either:
arts_centre=ampitheatre or
arts_centre=outdoor

I like the arts_centre=outdoor sub-tag. Although the stage may be covered or structural (like the Hollywood Bowl), the fact that the seating is permanently outdoors and/or built into the terrain seems to be a key feature. 

Wikipedia has 3 categories - historic, modern, and natural. 

Perhaps arts_centre=amphitheatre” can be an arts centre with a large substantial structure for the performance area.


I think that sub-tag value is inevitable. 

However, the other ones I mentioned, particularly Mt Helix, is a famous venue, but it is much smaller and offers little to no protection for the performers, however. [ehh… It is on the list of amphitheatres (not by me), so I don’t know where the line should be drawn…]  But the smaller venues found in parks, school grounds, camps, and corporate facilities would benefit from having arts_centre=outdoors, esp since they are small and offer little-to-no protection (or facilities) for a venue. 


I just thought of this: I was looking for a way to tag a stage that is in our park. the entire park is converted into an event space during summer events - dance contests and concerts are held there for a few days each year. Other people have been looking for a way to tag random “stages” that are permanent structures *but* are used only when called upon. Tagging the park as an outdoor event space seems wrong, so having a arts_centre=stage tag could be useful: here is a place where events are held, here is the permanent structure that is built, but it is considered an amenity to a larger facility ( a stage in a park, a stage in a corporate campus or school grounds.) my high school, my old employer, and my town park all have a visible-via-imagery stage structure that uses the surrounding grass, normally used for other things, as an event space rarely when desired. 

Unlike the “outdoor” - an area purposefully built and used just for performances, a stage would be an amenity of a larger outdoor multi-use facility. 


So: 

arts_centre=amphitheatre
arts_centre=outdoor
arts_centre=stage

sounds good to me. 

Javbw


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Re: Amphitheatre or outdoor non-sports venue

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Shawn K. Quinn


sent from a phone

> Il giorno 14 set 2016, alle ore 07:15, Shawn K. Quinn <[hidden email]> ha scritto:
>
> Is there anything about amenity=arts_centre that says it has to
> necessarily be indoor?
>
> I propose:
>
> amenity=arts_centre and either:
> arts_centre=ampitheatre or
> arts_centre=outdoor


I find this a bit of a stretch. To me it seems more similar to a theatre, although that doesn't catch it well either (because there isn't a theatre institution, just a theatre structure).
What about man_made=amphitheatre ? I have mapped some historic ones as building=amphitheatre and there are also few historic=amphitheatre
http://taginfo.osm.org/tags/historic=amphitheatre
http://taginfo.osm.org/tags/building=amphitheatre
http://taginfo.osm.org/tags/man_made=amphitheatre
http://taginfo.osm.org/tags/amenity=amphitheatre
http://taginfo.osm.org/tags/leisure=amphitheatre


usage numbers are all low, so I wouldn't pay too much attention, rather choose the tag that seems best suited for mapping a generic amphitheatre structure and put up a proposal in the wiki for documentation

cheers,
Martin
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Re: Amphitheatre or outdoor non-sports venue

John Willis
In reply to this post by Shawn K. Quinn
after searching the wiki for the correct spelling of amphitheatre (oops),  I found: 


"For tagging amphitheatres, open-air or outdoor theatres, the Talk page suggests using theatre:type=amphi.” 


*sigh*  what is an Amphi? theatre:type=amphitheatre makes more sense, and the other types I suggest would be :type=natural and :type=stage. 

looking for input on how to reconcile arts_centre and theatre. 

Javbw.  


On Sep 14, 2016, at 2:15 PM, Shawn K. Quinn <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Wed, 2016-09-14 at 14:04 +0900, johnw wrote:
I’m trying to tag an outdoor venue I would call
an https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphitheatre. It is a “natural” one,
with a stage near a lake, with terraces seating for picnics or
standing for a crowded performance.
[...]
Large camps, outdoor parks, and other places will have a outdoor
stadium-like place, but has no ability to host a sporting event - it
is a “performance” venue - people on a “stage" doing something for an
audience: a music concert, standup, religious performance


Event Venue, music Venue, and proposals are abandoned. "Stadium" seems
to be focused on sports, as it should be. Sports Arenas and stadiums
can be adapted for music events, but like a movie theatre or
performance hall, these are primarily a performance-only venue. these
are outdoor versions of a performance hall.


is there some amenity=* tag I am missing that I should be using?
Putting “stadium” or sports venue on these seems pretty wrong.

Is there anything about amenity=arts_centre that says it has to
necessarily be indoor?

I propose:

amenity=arts_centre and either:
arts_centre=ampitheatre or
arts_centre=outdoor


--
Shawn K. Quinn <[hidden email]>


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Re: Amphitheatre or outdoor non-sports venue

moltonel 3x Combo


On 14 September 2016 09:42:59 GMT+01:00, johnw <[hidden email]> wrote:

>after searching the wiki for the correct spelling of amphitheatre
>(oops),  I found:
>
>https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dtheatre
><https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity=theatre>
>
>"For tagging amphitheatres
><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphitheatre>, open-air or outdoor
>theatres, the Talk page
><https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:amenity%3Dtheatre#open_air_theatre>
>suggests using theatre:type
><https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:theatre:type&action=edit&redlink=1>=amphi
><https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:theatre:type%3Damphi&action=edit&redlink=1>.”
>
>
>
>*sigh*  what is an Amphi? theatre:type=amphitheatre makes more sense,
>and the other types I suggest would be :type=natural and :type=stage.
>
>looking for input on how to reconcile arts_centre and theatre.

An art_centre has a much wider scope than a theare. It's not just about plays, coursee are held there, etc (see wiki). IMHO an amphitheatre is definitely an amenity=theatre, not art_centre.

http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/theatre%3Atype#values is fairly well established, and 'amphi' seems to be a mundane abbrev of 'amphitheatre'
--
Vincent Dp

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Re: Amphitheatre or outdoor non-sports venue

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

> Il giorno 14 set 2016, alle ore 11:41, moltonel <[hidden email]> ha scritto:
>
> http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/theatre%3Atype#values is fairly well established, and 'amphi' seems to be a mundane abbrev of 'amphitheatre'


I've just discovered that amenity=theatre has theatre:type=amphi documented. IMHO a bad choice (abbreviated)


cheers,
Martin
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Re: Amphitheatre or outdoor non-sports venue

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by John Willis


sent from a phone

Il giorno 14 set 2016, alle ore 10:42, johnw <[hidden email]> ha scritto:

*sigh*  what is an Amphi? theatre:type=amphitheatre makes more sense, and the other types I suggest would be :type=natural and :type=stage. 


the latter two don't make much sense, especially "stage" (you can rarely find a theatre without a stage).


Generally I want to point out that amphitheatres should be round (circular or oval), places like these are not amphitheatres: 
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidauros#/media/File:Theater_Epidauros.jpg (~330BC, one kf the most famous ancient theatres), at least not in German or Italian, and English Wikipedia seems to confirm this, but I have also found websites describing it as amphitheatre



looking for input on how to reconcile arts_centre and theatre. 


Wikipedia en says about arts centres: An art centre or arts center is distinct from an art gallery or art museum. An arts centre is a functional community centre with a specific remit to encourage arts practice and to provide facilities such as theatre space, gallery space, venues for musical performance, workshop areas, educational facilities, technical equipment, etc.[1]


This seems quite different to a theatre (a "theatre space" already indicates it is not a "real" theatre, where everything is focused on the theatre.

cheers,
Martin 

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Re: Amphitheatre or outdoor non-sports venue

EthnicFood IsGreat
In reply to this post by John Willis
> Il giorno 14 set 2016, alle ore 07:15, Shawn K. Quinn <[hidden email]> ha scritto:
>
> Is there anything about amenity=arts_centre that says it has to
> necessarily be indoor?
>
> I propose:
>
> amenity=arts_centre and either:
> arts_centre=ampitheatre or
> arts_centre=outdoor


> I find this a bit of a stretch. To me it seems more similar to a theatre, although that doesn't catch it well either (because there isn't a > theatre institution, just a theatre structure).
> What about man_made=amphitheatre ? I have mapped some historic ones as building=amphitheatre and there are also few historic=amphitheatre
> http://taginfo.osm.org/tags/historic=amphitheatre
> http://taginfo.osm.org/tags/building=amphitheatre
> http://taginfo.osm.org/tags/man_made=amphitheatre
> http://taginfo.osm.org/tags/amenity=amphitheatre
> http://taginfo.osm.org/tags/leisure=amphitheatre


> usage numbers are all low, so I wouldn't pay too much attention, rather choose the tag that seems best suited for mapping a generic amphitheatre structure and put up a proposal in the wiki for documentation

> cheers,
> Martin


I agree with Martin.  I think any tag that has the connotation of arts
or theatre is too restrictive, because not all outdoor amphitheatres
are used for these purposes.  I know of some at religious sites that
are only used for worship.  I would prefer man_made=amphitheatre, with
subtags to describe how the amphitheatre is used or what type it is.

Mark Bradley

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Re: Amphitheatre or outdoor non-sports venue

John Willis
In reply to this post by dieterdreist


Javbw

On 14 Sep 2016, at 10:48 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:

amphitheatres should be round (circular or oval), places like these are not amphitheatres: 

Historic ones are - the "modern ones" listed are more like a generic outdoor performance venue, so I think its shape is not as important to the definition. 

Javbw 

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Re: Amphitheatre or outdoor non-sports venue

John Willis
In reply to this post by dieterdreist




Javbw
On 14 Sep 2016, at 10:48 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:

the latter two don't make much sense, especially "stage" (you can rarely find a theatre without a stage).

Yea, but you can find a stage without a theatre, especially in multiuse areas.  


I took the picture a few minutes ago. It is the stage in our local park. Our park has a huge grass expanse, many Japanese Elm trees, playground, fountain, bathrooms, sculptures, and a place for kids to play in the water, adjacent to our town's library a and small (indoor) performance hall. It. Also has this purpose-built stage in one corner of the park. It is pretty useless most of the time, besides our running club doing sit-ups on it in the morning. 

Every few months, an event is held in the park, using the grass as seating that is a normal park area the rest of the time - like a marathon or a dance contest or other event that uses the stage.  There is no structure, seating, landscaping or otherwise in service of being a theatre besides a stage. It is an orphaned stage, an amenity to the park like a bathroom or a playground. On the park map, it is labeled "ステージ" - stage. 

I would like a way to tag these "orphaned" stages that pop up in multipurpose areas. I think that, if mapped, these stages would outnumber the Amphitheatres. There are a lot of them. 

Contrast this to the outdoor venue in the park in San Diego I linked to that my father uses. It has a 10x5m concrete stage in a natural bowl, with grass and concrete ramps and sidewalks that form seating for about 200, making the area (stage, seating, access ways) useless for anything other than as a small informal venue for park events. Mapping the entire area (the stage, the seating, the trellis around the walkways, and the access walkways) would be a single area - the theatre:type=outdoor (or similar). 

But the stage in my park is a mappable structure just by itself. There is no seating or area that should be included, as it is the common grass covered with dogs and elementary students any other day. 

That's why I want a "stage" object in some way - whatever tag or subtag is appropriate. 

But I hope you see the need for some some kind of "stage only" tag. 

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Re: Amphitheatre or outdoor non-sports venue

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by John Willis


sent from a phone

Il giorno 15 set 2016, alle ore 01:43, John Willis <[hidden email]> ha scritto:

Historic ones are - the "modern ones" listed are more like a generic outdoor performance venue, so I think its shape is not as important to the definition. 


I think this is subject to discussion, "modern" outdoor theatres that aren't closed but have the term "amphitheatre" in their name still might not actually be amphitheatres, hence not get this tag. Question to the English native speakers: is it common in British English as well to call these "amphitheatre", or is it maybe American usage only? By looking at the word itself (greek), it would clearly exclude semicircles. As I wrote before, other languages like German and Italian don't consider the semicircular ones amphitheatre.

cheers,
Martin 

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Re: Amphitheatre or outdoor non-sports venue

Kevin Kenny-4
Thus saith Wikipedia:
In modern usage, an amphitheatre is a circular, semicircular or curved, acoustically vibrant performance space, particularly one located outdoors. Contemporary amphitheatres often include standing structures, called bandshells, sometimes curved or bowl-shaped, both behind the stage and behind the audience, creating an area which echoes or amplifies sound, making the amphitheatre ideal for musical or theatrical performances. Small-scale amphitheatres can serve to host outdoor local community performances.

In short, Wikipedia's editors appear not to think that a circular or oval plan is essential to the definition. The California and Ohio examples in the illustrations clearly do not have a round plan.

I observe that there's controversy on the talk page for the Wikipedia article, also.

Some searching turns up modern facilities in the UK with 'amphitheatre' in their names that are clearly not amphitheatres sensu stricto.
The Amphitheatre, South Shields, Tyneside.
Trebah Garden Amphitheatre, Near Falmouth, Cornwall
Kelvingrove Bandstand and Amphitheatre, Glasgow
Canon's Marsh Amphitheatre, Bristol
et cetera

'Amphitheatre' in the sense of an outdoor performance venue, usually but not always with seating arranged in tiers, is common enough in the US and Canada that I'd argue that it is the predominant modern use of the term.

It's also current in all the English-speaking countries in the sense of a lecture hall with tiered seating, or in the sense of a geologic feature shaped like a bowl or inverted cone - often a glacial cirque or a riverbend in a canyon, but these are unlikely to have confusing tagging; the one is a room in a building, and the other would have some sort of natural=* tag.

If we want to disallow 'amphitheatre' sensu lato, we would surely surprise most North Americans, and we'd have both to document carefully OSM's understanding of the term, and to provide alternative tagging to identiffy such a performance space.


On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 3:56 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:


sent from a phone

Il giorno 15 set 2016, alle ore 01:43, John Willis <[hidden email]> ha scritto:

Historic ones are - the "modern ones" listed are more like a generic outdoor performance venue, so I think its shape is not as important to the definition. 


I think this is subject to discussion, "modern" outdoor theatres that aren't closed but have the term "amphitheatre" in their name still might not actually be amphitheatres, hence not get this tag. Question to the English native speakers: is it common in British English as well to call these "amphitheatre", or is it maybe American usage only? By looking at the word itself (greek), it would clearly exclude semicircles. As I wrote before, other languages like German and Italian don't consider the semicircular ones amphitheatre.

cheers,
Martin 

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