An old chestnut - looking for clarity for road names beginning "St ..."

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An old chestnut - looking for clarity for road names beginning "St ..."

Stuart Reynolds
Hi All,

I have read and re-read all of the guidance and local rules relating to the use of abbreviations where it would be wrong to expand “St” into “Saint”. It is quite clear that, for the UK, “Saint Ives” is wrong, whereas “St Ives” is correct. There is also one page where I have found “St Mary’s Church” is correct, but “Saint Mary’s Church” is wrong. All of this I agree with.

The question I want to clarify is the use of “Saint” in street names. I think that is similarly clear that e.g. “St Nicholas Road” (with the full expansion of “road”!) is correct, and “Saint Nicholas Road” isn’t. But since the small handful that I initially came across in Great Yarmouth were last edited by an experienced OSMer (Rob Whittaker), I thought that it was better to check with the community than just change it.

A not-so-quick Overpass query (using a map which contained the whole of the UK, and hence Ireland and a bit of Belgium) tells me that there are 10,324 ways which are named “Saint *” which potentially need changing if we agree that “St *” is correct.

By contrast there are 26,559 ways that are named “St *”, and a further 7,252 that are named “St. *”.

Regards,
Stuart Reynolds
for traveline south east & anglia




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Re: An old chestnut - looking for clarity for road names beginning "St ..."

Colin Smale
It is pretty obvious in my mind. St is correct, Saint is wrong. Unless there is evidence that Saint is the prevalent spelling on the ground. And I am unanimous in that.

A great uncle+aunt of mine used to live in St Nicholas Road, in one of the old Row houses with an outside dunny! Could never understand a word they said...

//colin


On 17 July 2017 14:45:22 CEST, Stuart Reynolds <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi All,

I have read and re-read all of the guidance and local rules relating to the use of abbreviations where it would be wrong to expand “St” into “Saint”. It is quite clear that, for the UK, “Saint Ives” is wrong, whereas “St Ives” is correct. There is also one page where I have found “St Mary’s Church” is correct, but “Saint Mary’s Church” is wrong. All of this I agree with.

The question I want to clarify is the use of “Saint” in street names. I think that is similarly clear that e.g. “St Nicholas Road” (with the full expansion of “road”!) is correct, and “Saint Nicholas Road” isn’t. But since the small handful that I initially came across in Great Yarmouth were last edited by an experienced OSMer (Rob Whittaker), I thought that it was better to check with the community than just change it.

A not-so-quick Overpass query (using a map which contained the whole of the UK, and hence Ireland and a bit of Belgium) tells me that there are 10,324 ways which are named “Saint *” which potentially need changing if we agree that “St *” is correct.

By contrast there are 26,559 ways that are named “St *”, and a further 7,252 that are named “St. *”.

Regards,
Stuart Reynolds
for traveline south east & anglia




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Re: An old chestnut - looking for clarity for road names beginning "St ..."

Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)-2
In reply to this post by Stuart Reynolds

We should be applying the on the ground rule of verification. As in, if looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then there is a better than average chance it is a duck. So if the road sign, church sign or whatever says Saint or St. etc then best to stick to that so as not to offend just as many people as those who agree it’s wrong!

 

Cheers

Andy

 

PS Other deities are available

 

From: Stuart Reynolds [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: 17 July 2017 13:45
To: Talk GB
Subject: [Talk-GB] An old chestnut - looking for clarity for road names beginning "St ..."

 

Hi All,

 

I have read and re-read all of the guidance and local rules relating to the use of abbreviations where it would be wrong to expand “St” into “Saint”. It is quite clear that, for the UK, “Saint Ives” is wrong, whereas “St Ives” is correct. There is also one page where I have found “St Mary’s Church” is correct, but “Saint Mary’s Church” is wrong. All of this I agree with.

 

The question I want to clarify is the use of “Saint” in street names. I think that is similarly clear that e.g. “St Nicholas Road” (with the full expansion of “road”!) is correct, and “Saint Nicholas Road” isn’t. But since the small handful that I initially came across in Great Yarmouth were last edited by an experienced OSMer (Rob Whittaker), I thought that it was better to check with the community than just change it.

 

A not-so-quick Overpass query (using a map which contained the whole of the UK, and hence Ireland and a bit of Belgium) tells me that there are 10,324 ways which are named “Saint *” which potentially need changing if we agree that “St *” is correct.

 

By contrast there are 26,559 ways that are named “St *”, and a further 7,252 that are named “St. *”.

 

Regards,

Stuart Reynolds

for traveline south east & anglia

 

 

 


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Re: An old chestnut - looking for clarity for road names beginning "St ..."

Colin Smale
Agreed, however I don't think we should be fussy about minor typographic differences like apostrophes or full stops. There are often variations at this level from sign to sign. If one bit is signed "St." and another bit of the same road is signed "St" I think we should use a single style for the whole road, taking it from the longest length. We can never determine where the transition should go, and it is the same road after all, so consistency is good.
//colin

On 17 July 2017 18:35:07 CEST, Andy Robinson <[hidden email]> wrote:

We should be applying the on the ground rule of verification. As in, if looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then there is a better than average chance it is a duck. So if the road sign, church sign or whatever says Saint or St. etc then best to stick to that so as not to offend just as many people as those who agree it’s wrong!

 

Cheers

Andy

 

PS Other deities are available

 

From: Stuart Reynolds [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: 17 July 2017 13:45
To: Talk GB
Subject: [Talk-GB] An old chestnut - looking for clarity for road names beginning "St ..."

 

Hi All,

 

I have read and re-read all of the guidance and local rules relating to the use of abbreviations where it would be wrong to expand “St” into “Saint”. It is quite clear that, for the UK, “Saint Ives” is wrong, whereas “St Ives” is correct. There is also one page where I have found “St Mary’s Church” is correct, but “Saint Mary’s Church” is wrong. All of this I agree with.

 

The question I want to clarify is the use of “Saint” in street names. I think that is similarly clear that e.g. “St Nicholas Road” (with the full expansion of “road”!) is correct, and “Saint Nicholas Road” isn’t. But since the small handful that I initially came across in Great Yarmouth were last edited by an experienced OSMer (Rob Whittaker), I thought that it was better to check with the community than just change it.

 

A not-so-quick Overpass query (using a map which contained the whole of the UK, and hence Ireland and a bit of Belgium) tells me that there are 10,324 ways which are named “Saint *” which potentially need changing if we agree that “St *” is correct.

 

By contrast there are 26,559 ways that are named “St *”, and a further 7,252 that are named “St. *”.

 

Regards,

Stuart Reynolds

for traveline south east & anglia

 

 

 


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Re: An old chestnut - looking for clarity for road names beginning "St ..."

Pierre Riteau
If you want to be exhaustive, you can add another spelling variant as alt_name: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:alt_name

For something as minor as St vs St., if there is no clear winner for a specific street, maybe match style of other streets around?

On Mon, 17 Jul 2017, at 18:32, Colin Smale wrote:
Agreed, however I don't think we should be fussy about minor typographic differences like apostrophes or full stops. There are often variations at this level from sign to sign. If one bit is signed "St." and another bit of the same road is signed "St" I think we should use a single style for the whole road, taking it from the longest length. We can never determine where the transition should go, and it is the same road after all, so consistency is good.
//colin

On 17 July 2017 18:35:07 CEST, Andy Robinson <[hidden email]> wrote:

We should be applying the on the ground rule of verification. As in, if looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then there is a better than average chance it is a duck. So if the road sign, church sign or whatever says Saint or St. etc then best to stick to that so as not to offend just as many people as those who agree it’s wrong!





 



Cheers




Andy





 



PS Other deities are available





 



From: Stuart Reynolds [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: 17 July 2017 13:45
To: Talk GB
Subject: [Talk-GB] An old chestnut - looking for clarity for road names beginning "St ..."





 

Hi All,



 

I have read and re-read all of the guidance and local rules relating to the use of abbreviations where it would be wrong to expand “St” into “Saint”. It is quite clear that, for the UK, “Saint Ives” is wrong, whereas “St Ives” is correct. There is also one page where I have found “St Mary’s Church” is correct, but “Saint Mary’s Church” is wrong. All of this I agree with.



 

The question I want to clarify is the use of “Saint” in street names. I think that is similarly clear that e.g. “St Nicholas Road” (with the full expansion of “road”!) is correct, and “Saint Nicholas Road” isn’t. But since the small handful that I initially came across in Great Yarmouth were last edited by an experienced OSMer (Rob Whittaker), I thought that it was better to check with the community than just change it.



 

A not-so-quick Overpass query (using a map which contained the whole of the UK, and hence Ireland and a bit of Belgium) tells me that there are 10,324 ways which are named “Saint *” which potentially need changing if we agree that “St *” is correct.



 

By contrast there are 26,559 ways that are named “St *”, and a further 7,252 that are named “St. *”.



 

Regards,




Stuart Reynolds




for traveline south east & anglia





 




 


 

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Re: An old chestnut - looking for clarity for road names beginning "St ..."

Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)-2
In reply to this post by Colin Smale

I came up with a simple solution for road sign differences very early on in my mapping. I only map the name I see first J . Generally I ignore the sign at the other end of a street unless there has been a complete name change.

 

Cheers

Andy

 

From: Colin Smale [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: 17 July 2017 18:32
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] An old chestnut - looking for clarity for road names beginning "St ..."

 

Agreed, however I don't think we should be fussy about minor typographic differences like apostrophes or full stops. There are often variations at this level from sign to sign. If one bit is signed "St." and another bit of the same road is signed "St" I think we should use a single style for the whole road, taking it from the longest length. We can never determine where the transition should go, and it is the same road after all, so consistency is good.
//colin

On 17 July 2017 18:35:07 CEST, Andy Robinson <[hidden email]> wrote:

We should be applying the on the ground rule of verification. As in, if looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then there is a better than average chance it is a duck. So if the road sign, church sign or whatever says Saint or St. etc then best to stick to that so as not to offend just as many people as those who agree it’s wrong!

 

Cheers

Andy

 

PS Other deities are available

 

From: Stuart Reynolds [[hidden email]]
Sent: 17 July 2017 13:45
To: Talk GB
Subject: [Talk-GB] An old chestnut - looking for clarity for road names beginning "St ..."

 

Hi All,

 

I have read and re-read all of the guidance and local rules relating to the use of abbreviations where it would be wrong to expand “St” into “Saint”. It is quite clear that, for the UK, “Saint Ives” is wrong, whereas “St Ives” is correct. There is also one page where I have found “St Mary’s Church” is correct, but “Saint Mary’s Church” is wrong. All of this I agree with.

 

The question I want to clarify is the use of “Saint” in street names. I think that is similarly clear that e.g. “St Nicholas Road” (with the full expansion of “road”!) is correct, and “Saint Nicholas Road” isn’t. But since the small handful that I initially came across in Great Yarmouth were last edited by an experienced OSMer (Rob Whittaker), I thought that it was better to check with the community than just change it.

 

A not-so-quick Overpass query (using a map which contained the whole of the UK, and hence Ireland and a bit of Belgium) tells me that there are 10,324 ways which are named “Saint *” which potentially need changing if we agree that “St *” is correct.

 

By contrast there are 26,559 ways that are named “St *”, and a further 7,252 that are named “St. *”.

 

Regards,

Stuart Reynolds

for traveline south east & anglia

 

 

 


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Re: An old chestnut - looking for clarity for road names beginning "St ..."

Colin Smale
Andy, that sounds reasonable from the perspective of your mapping activities, but it doesn't address the question of the contents of the map. If someone else was at the other end of the street and saw a sign subtly different to yours, we would end up with an inconsistency in the map data and no arbitration rule to resolve it.
//colin


On 18 July 2017 10:15:38 CEST, Andy Robinson <[hidden email]> wrote:

I came up with a simple solution for road sign differences very early on in my mapping. I only map the name I see first J . Generally I ignore the sign at the other end of a street unless there has been a complete name change.

 

Cheers

Andy

 

From: Colin Smale [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: 17 July 2017 18:32
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] An old chestnut - looking for clarity for road names beginning "St ..."

 

Agreed, however I don't think we should be fussy about minor typographic differences like apostrophes or full stops. There are often variations at this level from sign to sign. If one bit is signed "St." and another bit of the same road is signed "St" I think we should use a single style for the whole road, taking it from the longest length. We can never determine where the transition should go, and it is the same road after all, so consistency is good.
//colin

On 17 July 2017 18:35:07 CEST, Andy Robinson <[hidden email]> wrote:

We should be applying the on the ground rule of verification. As in, if looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then there is a better than average chance it is a duck. So if the road sign, church sign or whatever says Saint or St. etc then best to stick to that so as not to offend just as many people as those who agree it’s wrong!

 

Cheers

Andy

 

PS Other deities are available

 

From: Stuart Reynolds [[hidden email]]
Sent: 17 July 2017 13:45
To: Talk GB
Subject: [Talk-GB] An old chestnut - looking for clarity for road names beginning "St ..."

 

Hi All,

 

I have read and re-read all of the guidance and local rules relating to the use of abbreviations where it would be wrong to expand “St” into “Saint”. It is quite clear that, for the UK, “Saint Ives” is wrong, whereas “St Ives” is correct. There is also one page where I have found “St Mary’s Church” is correct, but “Saint Mary’s Church” is wrong. All of this I agree with.

 

The question I want to clarify is the use of “Saint” in street names. I think that is similarly clear that e.g. “St Nicholas Road” (with the full expansion of “road”!) is correct, and “Saint Nicholas Road” isn’t. But since the small handful that I initially came across in Great Yarmouth were last edited by an experienced OSMer (Rob Whittaker), I thought that it was better to check with the community than just change it.

 

A not-so-quick Overpass query (using a map which contained the whole of the UK, and hence Ireland and a bit of Belgium) tells me that there are 10,324 ways which are named “Saint *” which potentially need changing if we agree that “St *” is correct.

 

By contrast there are 26,559 ways that are named “St *”, and a further 7,252 that are named “St. *”.

 

Regards,

Stuart Reynolds

for traveline south east & anglia

 

 

 


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Re: An old chestnut - looking for clarity for road names beginning "St ..."

Adam Snape
Ideally nominatim etc. would recognise that St Mary's Road = St. Mary's Road =  Saint Mary's Road but I do tag both if there is a difference in road signs.

Church names are more problematic because they and their dedications are signed very inconsistently. I tend to use the form St Somebody's Church as the main name tag as this is almost always the form the name takes in actual usage. 

Regards,

Adam

On 18 Jul 2017 9:51 a.m., "Colin Smale" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Andy, that sounds reasonable from the perspective of your mapping activities, but it doesn't address the question of the contents of the map. If someone else was at the other end of the street and saw a sign subtly different to yours, we would end up with an inconsistency in the map data and no arbitration rule to resolve it.
//colin


On 18 July 2017 10:15:38 CEST, Andy Robinson <[hidden email]> wrote:

I came up with a simple solution for road sign differences very early on in my mapping. I only map the name I see first J . Generally I ignore the sign at the other end of a street unless there has been a complete name change.

 

Cheers

Andy

 

From: Colin Smale [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: 17 July 2017 18:32
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] An old chestnut - looking for clarity for road names beginning "St ..."

 

Agreed, however I don't think we should be fussy about minor typographic differences like apostrophes or full stops. There are often variations at this level from sign to sign. If one bit is signed "St." and another bit of the same road is signed "St" I think we should use a single style for the whole road, taking it from the longest length. We can never determine where the transition should go, and it is the same road after all, so consistency is good.
//colin

On 17 July 2017 18:35:07 CEST, Andy Robinson <[hidden email]> wrote:

We should be applying the on the ground rule of verification. As in, if looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then there is a better than average chance it is a duck. So if the road sign, church sign or whatever says Saint or St. etc then best to stick to that so as not to offend just as many people as those who agree it’s wrong!

 

Cheers

Andy

 

PS Other deities are available

 

From: Stuart Reynolds [[hidden email]]
Sent: 17 July 2017 13:45
To: Talk GB
Subject: [Talk-GB] An old chestnut - looking for clarity for road names beginning "St ..."

 

Hi All,

 

I have read and re-read all of the guidance and local rules relating to the use of abbreviations where it would be wrong to expand “St” into “Saint”. It is quite clear that, for the UK, “Saint Ives” is wrong, whereas “St Ives” is correct. There is also one page where I have found “St Mary’s Church” is correct, but “Saint Mary’s Church” is wrong. All of this I agree with.

 

The question I want to clarify is the use of “Saint” in street names. I think that is similarly clear that e.g. “St Nicholas Road” (with the full expansion of “road”!) is correct, and “Saint Nicholas Road” isn’t. But since the small handful that I initially came across in Great Yarmouth were last edited by an experienced OSMer (Rob Whittaker), I thought that it was better to check with the community than just change it.

 

A not-so-quick Overpass query (using a map which contained the whole of the UK, and hence Ireland and a bit of Belgium) tells me that there are 10,324 ways which are named “Saint *” which potentially need changing if we agree that “St *” is correct.

 

By contrast there are 26,559 ways that are named “St *”, and a further 7,252 that are named “St. *”.

 

Regards,

Stuart Reynolds

for traveline south east & anglia

 

 

 


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Re: An old chestnut - looking for clarity for road names beginning "St ..."

Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)-2
In reply to this post by Colin Smale

On the basis that the majority of mappers make few edits I suspect that a change to the name would be seen as a correction by the other mapper and the change will remain in perpetuity till someone does the revers again! But I accept your point that if you are been really precise you ideally do a little more research and put the name in as that which it most likely should be from the choices and record the alternative in another tag with appropriate notes. I just think life is too short to worry about it J

 

Cheers

Andy

 

From: Colin Smale [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: 18 July 2017 09:45
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] An old chestnut - looking for clarity for road names beginning "St ..."

 

Andy, that sounds reasonable from the perspective of your mapping activities, but it doesn't address the question of the contents of the map. If someone else was at the other end of the street and saw a sign subtly different to yours, we would end up with an inconsistency in the map data and no arbitration rule to resolve it.
//colin

On 18 July 2017 10:15:38 CEST, Andy Robinson <[hidden email]> wrote:

I came up with a simple solution for road sign differences very early on in my mapping. I only map the name I see first J . Generally I ignore the sign at the other end of a street unless there has been a complete name change.

 

Cheers

Andy

 

From: Colin Smale [[hidden email]]
Sent: 17 July 2017 18:32
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] An old chestnut - looking for clarity for road names beginning "St ..."

 

Agreed, however I don't think we should be fussy about minor typographic differences like apostrophes or full stops. There are often variations at this level from sign to sign. If one bit is signed "St." and another bit of the same road is signed "St" I think we should use a single style for the whole road, taking it from the longest length. We can never determine where the transition should go, and it is the same road after all, so consistency is good.
//colin

On 17 July 2017 18:35:07 CEST, Andy Robinson <[hidden email]> wrote:

We should be applying the on the ground rule of verification. As in, if looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then there is a better than average chance it is a duck. So if the road sign, church sign or whatever says Saint or St. etc then best to stick to that so as not to offend just as many people as those who agree it’s wrong!

 

Cheers

Andy

 

PS Other deities are available

 

From: Stuart Reynolds [[hidden email]]
Sent: 17 July 2017 13:45
To: Talk GB
Subject: [Talk-GB] An old chestnut - looking for clarity for road names beginning "St ..."

 

Hi All,

 

I have read and re-read all of the guidance and local rules relating to the use of abbreviations where it would be wrong to expand “St” into “Saint”. It is quite clear that, for the UK, “Saint Ives” is wrong, whereas “St Ives” is correct. There is also one page where I have found “St Mary’s Church” is correct, but “Saint Mary’s Church” is wrong. All of this I agree with.

 

The question I want to clarify is the use of “Saint” in street names. I think that is similarly clear that e.g. “St Nicholas Road” (with the full expansion of “road”!) is correct, and “Saint Nicholas Road” isn’t. But since the small handful that I initially came across in Great Yarmouth were last edited by an experienced OSMer (Rob Whittaker), I thought that it was better to check with the community than just change it.

 

A not-so-quick Overpass query (using a map which contained the whole of the UK, and hence Ireland and a bit of Belgium) tells me that there are 10,324 ways which are named “Saint *” which potentially need changing if we agree that “St *” is correct.

 

By contrast there are 26,559 ways that are named “St *”, and a further 7,252 that are named “St. *”.

 

Regards,

Stuart Reynolds

for traveline south east & anglia

 

 

 


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