Anyone who likes to organize an ID discussion panel at SotM?

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Anyone who likes to organize an ID discussion panel at SotM?

Christine Karch
Hi,

reading the discussions about the direction of ID development and how
the community wants the ID at the OSM website I had the idea that there
could perhaps be a panel at SotM. Does anyone want to organize an ID
discussion panel at SotM? Please tell me or us (program committee in CC)
and we can consider it. At the moment it would be sufficient to have
someone (or more) who wants to organize it. All details could be defined
later.

As ID is a core feature at the OSM website I think this would be
suitable for the main program at SotM.

Additionally it is always possible to organize informal meetings, panels
during SotM in the unconference space (we will provide a lot of it).

By the way ticket sales is open. The Early Bird phase is until 7 July.
Program announcement will be around 20 June.

We will have our schedule meeting at 8 June. So it would be good to know
if an ID panel should be planned. Details for the program booklet should
be provided until end of July.

Cheers

Christine

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Re: [Osmf-talk] Anyone who likes to organize an ID discussion panel at SotM?

Bryan Housel-2
Christine.. 

We mustn't define “the community” as the few remaining handful of people who have not yet been driven off the mailing lists by persistent abusers and trolls.

I am very aware of what people are saying about iD on all discussion channels.  I read all of it, even the stuff written in other languages, and even archives of mailing lists that I’ve long unsubscribed from.

I encourage everyone to not put too much stock into what “the community” of mailing list haters thinks about iD.  It’s the same dozen or so people who have never liked me or iD much anyway.

I meet with stakeholders every week about the improvements we’ve made in iD, and I’m proud of the work that our small team has been able to accomplish with each new release.  Right now there are 1000s of people editing with iD (most volunteering, but some paid) who will never stop by mailing list or a GitHub thread.  They far outnumber the voices that you hear on `talk` or `tagging`.

In large part because of the escalating negativity, I will not be attending State of the Map.  

My strong recommendation to you is to fill the program with content that encourages community health, inspires people to be better to one another, and celebrates the great things people are building with OpenStreetMap.

Thanks, Bryan
❤️, 🆔



On May 29, 2019, at 5:55 AM, Christine Karch <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi,

reading the discussions about the direction of ID development and how
the community wants the ID at the OSM website I had the idea that there
could perhaps be a panel at SotM. Does anyone want to organize an ID
discussion panel at SotM? Please tell me or us (program committee in CC)
and we can consider it. At the moment it would be sufficient to have
someone (or more) who wants to organize it. All details could be defined
later.

As ID is a core feature at the OSM website I think this would be
suitable for the main program at SotM.

Additionally it is always possible to organize informal meetings, panels
during SotM in the unconference space (we will provide a lot of it).

By the way ticket sales is open. The Early Bird phase is until 7 July.
Program announcement will be around 20 June.

We will have our schedule meeting at 8 June. So it would be good to know
if an ID panel should be planned. Details for the program booklet should
be provided until end of July.

Cheers

Christine

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Re: [Osmf-talk] Anyone who likes to organize an ID discussion panel at SotM?

Heather Leson-2
Dear Christine, Bryan and colleagues,

Thank you for this conversation. Christine, thanks for the consideration. Many people use ID. It is part of OSM. 

Bryan, i will reach out to separately on this topic. My goal is really to understand using this example on how we might improve for all people. The negativity is hard for me to, so we can start with a chat? More in a separate note.
 
I have also had some interesting experiences and frankly, I think OSM deserves to really think and do more. Call me an ally, but I believe there is room for all of us. Community health is a big concern. 

Thank you

Heather

Heather Leson
[hidden email]
Twitter/skype: HeatherLeson
Blog: textontechs.com


On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 5:23 PM Bryan Housel <[hidden email]> wrote:
Christine.. 

We mustn't define “the community” as the few remaining handful of people who have not yet been driven off the mailing lists by persistent abusers and trolls.

I am very aware of what people are saying about iD on all discussion channels.  I read all of it, even the stuff written in other languages, and even archives of mailing lists that I’ve long unsubscribed from.

I encourage everyone to not put too much stock into what “the community” of mailing list haters thinks about iD.  It’s the same dozen or so people who have never liked me or iD much anyway.

I meet with stakeholders every week about the improvements we’ve made in iD, and I’m proud of the work that our small team has been able to accomplish with each new release.  Right now there are 1000s of people editing with iD (most volunteering, but some paid) who will never stop by mailing list or a GitHub thread.  They far outnumber the voices that you hear on `talk` or `tagging`.

In large part because of the escalating negativity, I will not be attending State of the Map.  

My strong recommendation to you is to fill the program with content that encourages community health, inspires people to be better to one another, and celebrates the great things people are building with OpenStreetMap.

Thanks, Bryan
❤️, 🆔



On May 29, 2019, at 5:55 AM, Christine Karch <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi,

reading the discussions about the direction of ID development and how
the community wants the ID at the OSM website I had the idea that there
could perhaps be a panel at SotM. Does anyone want to organize an ID
discussion panel at SotM? Please tell me or us (program committee in CC)
and we can consider it. At the moment it would be sufficient to have
someone (or more) who wants to organize it. All details could be defined
later.

As ID is a core feature at the OSM website I think this would be
suitable for the main program at SotM.

Additionally it is always possible to organize informal meetings, panels
during SotM in the unconference space (we will provide a lot of it).

By the way ticket sales is open. The Early Bird phase is until 7 July.
Program announcement will be around 20 June.

We will have our schedule meeting at 8 June. So it would be good to know
if an ID panel should be planned. Details for the program booklet should
be provided until end of July.

Cheers

Christine

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Re: [Osmf-talk] Anyone who likes to organize an ID discussion panel at SotM?

john whelan-2
In reply to this post by Bryan Housel-2
I take it by this email you are putting your views and that of your team of what should be done above everyone else and no one else's views should count which would be fine for any other editor. 

Unfortunately I honestly think there is a change management problem with the default editor on the front page being updated without any change management procedures.

Just for the record I'm happy if people wish to use iD, I do have reservations about the number of horse=yes tags in Africa and I do have reservations about odd shaped buildings created in iD.

Cheerio John





On Wed, 29 May 2019 at 11:23, Bryan Housel <[hidden email]> wrote:
Christine.. 

We mustn't define “the community” as the few remaining handful of people who have not yet been driven off the mailing lists by persistent abusers and trolls.

I am very aware of what people are saying about iD on all discussion channels.  I read all of it, even the stuff written in other languages, and even archives of mailing lists that I’ve long unsubscribed from.

I encourage everyone to not put too much stock into what “the community” of mailing list haters thinks about iD.  It’s the same dozen or so people who have never liked me or iD much anyway.

I meet with stakeholders every week about the improvements we’ve made in iD, and I’m proud of the work that our small team has been able to accomplish with each new release.  Right now there are 1000s of people editing with iD (most volunteering, but some paid) who will never stop by mailing list or a GitHub thread.  They far outnumber the voices that you hear on `talk` or `tagging`.

In large part because of the escalating negativity, I will not be attending State of the Map.  

My strong recommendation to you is to fill the program with content that encourages community health, inspires people to be better to one another, and celebrates the great things people are building with OpenStreetMap.

Thanks, Bryan
❤️, 🆔



On May 29, 2019, at 5:55 AM, Christine Karch <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi,

reading the discussions about the direction of ID development and how
the community wants the ID at the OSM website I had the idea that there
could perhaps be a panel at SotM. Does anyone want to organize an ID
discussion panel at SotM? Please tell me or us (program committee in CC)
and we can consider it. At the moment it would be sufficient to have
someone (or more) who wants to organize it. All details could be defined
later.

As ID is a core feature at the OSM website I think this would be
suitable for the main program at SotM.

Additionally it is always possible to organize informal meetings, panels
during SotM in the unconference space (we will provide a lot of it).

By the way ticket sales is open. The Early Bird phase is until 7 July.
Program announcement will be around 20 June.

We will have our schedule meeting at 8 June. So it would be good to know
if an ID panel should be planned. Details for the program booklet should
be provided until end of July.

Cheers

Christine

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Re: [Osmf-talk] Anyone who likes to organize an ID discussion panel at SotM?

jbosm
In reply to this post by Heather Leson-2
We really have victims here, it seems.
Dear Christine, thank you for your work, thanks for your help, thanks for your ideas, thanks for your presence at many OSM events.
Il semble que des personnes n'arrivent pas à gérer des idées différentes des leurs. Leurs idées seront toujours les bonnes et les meilleures. Ein iD-Panel ist ein gute Idee, aber ich wird in SOTM nicht kommen dieses Jahr.
And yes, the message from this list non-reader confirms that having an updates-unwatched iD as default editor on osm.org is now really a bad idea. Unfortunately, I (and others probably) will just do nothing about it.
JB, a sometimes-reader, seldom-writer.

Le 29/05/2019 à 17:32, Heather Leson a écrit :
Dear Christine, Bryan and colleagues,

Thank you for this conversation. Christine, thanks for the consideration. Many people use ID. It is part of OSM. 

Bryan, i will reach out to separately on this topic. My goal is really to understand using this example on how we might improve for all people. The negativity is hard for me to, so we can start with a chat? More in a separate note.
 
I have also had some interesting experiences and frankly, I think OSM deserves to really think and do more. Call me an ally, but I believe there is room for all of us. Community health is a big concern. 

Thank you

Heather

Heather Leson
[hidden email]
Twitter/skype: HeatherLeson
Blog: textontechs.com


On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 5:23 PM Bryan Housel <[hidden email]> wrote:
Christine.. 

We mustn't define “the community” as the few remaining handful of people who have not yet been driven off the mailing lists by persistent abusers and trolls.

I am very aware of what people are saying about iD on all discussion channels.  I read all of it, even the stuff written in other languages, and even archives of mailing lists that I’ve long unsubscribed from.

I encourage everyone to not put too much stock into what “the community” of mailing list haters thinks about iD.  It’s the same dozen or so people who have never liked me or iD much anyway.

I meet with stakeholders every week about the improvements we’ve made in iD, and I’m proud of the work that our small team has been able to accomplish with each new release.  Right now there are 1000s of people editing with iD (most volunteering, but some paid) who will never stop by mailing list or a GitHub thread.  They far outnumber the voices that you hear on `talk` or `tagging`.

In large part because of the escalating negativity, I will not be attending State of the Map.  

My strong recommendation to you is to fill the program with content that encourages community health, inspires people to be better to one another, and celebrates the great things people are building with OpenStreetMap.

Thanks, Bryan
❤️, 🆔



On May 29, 2019, at 5:55 AM, Christine Karch <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi,

reading the discussions about the direction of ID development and how
the community wants the ID at the OSM website I had the idea that there
could perhaps be a panel at SotM. Does anyone want to organize an ID
discussion panel at SotM? Please tell me or us (program committee in CC)
and we can consider it. At the moment it would be sufficient to have
someone (or more) who wants to organize it. All details could be defined
later.

As ID is a core feature at the OSM website I think this would be
suitable for the main program at SotM.

Additionally it is always possible to organize informal meetings, panels
during SotM in the unconference space (we will provide a lot of it).

By the way ticket sales is open. The Early Bird phase is until 7 July.
Program announcement will be around 20 June.

We will have our schedule meeting at 8 June. So it would be good to know
if an ID panel should be planned. Details for the program booklet should
be provided until end of July.

Cheers

Christine

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Re: Anyone who likes to organize an ID discussion panel at SotM?

Christoph Hormann-2
In reply to this post by Christine Karch
On Wednesday 29 May 2019, Christine Karch wrote:
>
> reading the discussions about the direction of ID development and how
> the community wants the ID at the OSM website I had the idea that
> there could perhaps be a panel at SotM. Does anyone want to organize
> an ID discussion panel at SotM? Please tell me or us (program
> committee in CC) and we can consider it. At the moment it would be
> sufficient to have someone (or more) who wants to organize it. All
> details could be defined later.

I think this is a good idea but it should be done based on the
realization that however such panel is composed and no matter what
specific questions it covers it will not be representative for the OSM
community as a whole - if for no other reason than because it is being
held in English language at a conference with a significant economic
barrier of entry.

Underneath the specific issues with iD development that are being
discussed right now lies a broader problem of ideas of cultural
exceptionalism (that is the opinion that certain cultural values and
preferences are inherently more significant than others and don't have
to defend themselves in an open discourse) are increasingly pursued and
advocated in and around the OSM community.  You can find this for
example in Bryan Housels statements here and on the iD issue tracker
engrossing a huge number of people here as "mailing list haters" - an
attitude that is mirrored by quite a few other people including OSMF
board members who have also made demeaning statements about using
maining lists as communication channels.  This is to some extent
understandable when people are overwhelmed with the diversity in views
and positions as well as communication styles of a cross cultural
international community like OSM and the difficulties of gauging
opinions and developing consensus in such an environment.  This is even
harder if you are professionally involved in the field and you get
pressure from employers or business partners of course.  To retreat
into a smaller and culturally more homogeneous community where it is
much easier to find a consensus and possibly even developing a binary
friend/ally vs. enemies image of the OSM community is to some extent a
natural reaction.

Because these reactions will as explained inevitably happen when people
are overwhelmed by the cultural diversity of OSM and the difficulties
this creates in practical work what we really need to discuss is how we
can cultivate and communicate the specific core ideas and values of the
OpenStreetMap project (the idea that people from all over the world
freely and without being steered by a central authority collect their
local geographic knowledge into a database for the benefit of each
other) and help people realize the immense value of this to help bridge
the gaps between these cultural bubbles created by people in reaction
to the challenges of the project.  

I think most individuals active in the OSM community as a hobby are
aware of the immense value of the cultural diversity of OSM or at least
are able to understand it and openly embrance the challenges this comes
with.  The bigger challenge seems to be the organizational cultures of
corporations and organizations around OSM which are often much more
centralized and based on an exceptionalist principle.

--
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: Anyone who likes to organize an ID discussion panel at SotM?

Darafei "Komяpa" Praliaskouski
Underneath the specific issues with iD development that are being
discussed right now lies a broader problem of ideas of cultural
exceptionalism
...

I believe the problem is much simpler. iD is not developed by employees of OpenStreetMap Foundation so there is no formal way to ask anything from its developers. It is an independent project that never took oath "support but not shape the project", so it is going to shape it. Can there be an official editor from OSM Foundation with actual developers behind it though, with current financial governance model?

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Re: [Osmf-talk] Anyone who likes to organize an ID discussion panel at SotM?

Andrew Hain
In reply to this post by Christine Karch
This would be a good idea and it shouldn’t be confined to iD. This is just a particularly acute example of something that sometimes happens in OSM. Ideally there would be several developers there including iD.

--
Andrew

From: Christine Karch <[hidden email]>
Sent: 29 May 2019 10:55
To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
Cc: program-sotm
Subject: [Osmf-talk] Anyone who likes to organize an ID discussion panel at SotM?
 
Hi,

reading the discussions about the direction of ID development and how
the community wants the ID at the OSM website I had the idea that there
could perhaps be a panel at SotM. Does anyone want to organize an ID
discussion panel at SotM? Please tell me or us (program committee in CC)
and we can consider it. At the moment it would be sufficient to have
someone (or more) who wants to organize it. All details could be defined
later.

As ID is a core feature at the OSM website I think this would be
suitable for the main program at SotM.

Additionally it is always possible to organize informal meetings, panels
during SotM in the unconference space (we will provide a lot of it).

By the way ticket sales is open. The Early Bird phase is until 7 July.
Program announcement will be around 20 June.

We will have our schedule meeting at 8 June. So it would be good to know
if an ID panel should be planned. Details for the program booklet should
be provided until end of July.

Cheers

Christine

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Re: [Osmf-talk] Anyone who likes to organize an ID discussion panel at SotM?

Roland Olbricht
In reply to this post by Christine Karch
Hi,

> reading the discussions about the direction of ID development and how
> the community wants the ID at the OSM website I had the idea that there
> could perhaps be a panel at SotM. Does anyone want to organize an ID
> discussion panel at SotM? Please tell me or us (program committee in CC)
> and we can consider it. At the moment it would be sufficient to have
> someone (or more) who wants to organize it. All details could be defined
> later.

I volunteer to run of birds-of-a-feather on
"New processes to agree on tagging suggestions and their interaction
with the editing software available on openstreetmap.org"
(Feel free to shorten th title as you see fit).

I do not think that a tribunal on iD is helpful to anyone. Nonetheless,
mappers (and data users) would like to easily find what common sense is
for each kind of object. There is only limited support for the current
wiki and mailing list model. iD's approach earned backlash as well.

I do have 3 to 5 ideas how to lining out common sense of tagging could
be improved. I will not tell them right now: I highly value my
audience's attention, and half-baked ideas waste that precious resource.
Working on them right now, a couple of days before the SotM-FR,
jeopardizes my contribution to that conference and would waste the
attention of the audience there.

I instead suggest to collect ideas with deadline 1st of September. I
commit to present my ideas then and invite everyone to do so as well (on
this list, the wiki, or the forum, other channels if known and openly
available). This gives people not attending the conference better
chances to get involved.

That preparation ensures that we end up with one (or more) deliverables
that can be worked on. This is also the reason to prefer the BoF over a
panel discussion. I am unable to organize a panel discussion in a way
such that it produces a deliverable.

Some keywords to foster hope that there is a way forward:
- Changeset discussions as a social feature have widespread acclaim
- The "Any-Tag-You-Like" principle accompanies and serves OpenStreetMap
since more than a decade
- IETF's "Rough consensus" (RFC7282) has built the internet
- many tools already facilitate to make evidence based decisions,
   e.g. Taginfo in general and Taginfo's list of tag usage
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/highway#projects

Best regards,

Roland

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Re: [Osmf-talk] Anyone who likes to organize an ID discussion panel at SotM?

Mateusz Konieczny-3



4 Jun 2019, 13:14 by [hidden email]:
Hi,
reading the discussions about the direction of ID development and how
the community wants the ID at the OSM website I had the idea that there
could perhaps be a panel at SotM. Does anyone want to organize an ID
discussion panel at SotM? Please tell me or us (program committee in CC)
and we can consider it. At the moment it would be sufficient to have
someone (or more) who wants to organize it. All details could be defined
later.

I volunteer to run of birds-of-a-feather on
"New processes to agree on tagging suggestions and their interaction
with the editing software available on openstreetmap.org"
(Feel free to shorten th title as you see fit).
Sounds very interesting!
This gives people not attending the conference better
chances to get involved.
Especially this part.



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