Apps of delivery

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Apps of delivery

santamariense
How to tag POIs that deliver by some specific apps? E.g.,
https://www.ifood.com.br/delivery/santa-maria-rs/cheiro-verde-rua-coronel-valenca/08b63811-671f-4da9-956b-da875e07abad

Such apps work as social media, so I've thought that this case would
fit in contacts, something like

contact:<appname>=direct_weblink_to_the_POI

The specific example would be tagged as follows:
contact:ifood=https://www.ifood.com.br/delivery/santa-maria-rs/cheiro-verde-rua-coronel-valenca/08b63811-671f-4da9-956b-da875e07abad

What do you guys think about it?

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Re: Apps of delivery

TonyS
Like the idea.

delivery_contact might be better.

What about multiple delivery companies from one poi/restaurant?

Maintainability of the tag might be an issue - how often does the
delivery supplier change? In my area there are at least 3 delivery
suppliers all competing for business.

TonyS999

On 12/05/2019 02:45, santamariense wrote:

> How to tag POIs that deliver by some specific apps? E.g.,
> https://www.ifood.com.br/delivery/santa-maria-rs/cheiro-verde-rua-coronel-valenca/08b63811-671f-4da9-956b-da875e07abad
>
> Such apps work as social media, so I've thought that this case would
> fit in contacts, something like
>
> contact:<appname>=direct_weblink_to_the_POI
>
> The specific example would be tagged as follows:
> contact:ifood=https://www.ifood.com.br/delivery/santa-maria-rs/cheiro-verde-rua-coronel-valenca/08b63811-671f-4da9-956b-da875e07abad
>
> What do you guys think about it?
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Apps of delivery

santamariense
In reply to this post by santamariense
> delivery_contact might be better.

Or simply delivery:<appname>=* . Searching in taginfo there are
already 27 uses for the tag delivery:deliveroo [1], but with the value
"yes" and not the link.

On the other hand there is also one use for contact:deliveroo=weblink [4]

> What about multiple delivery companies from one poi/restaurant?

Yeah, for this reason I've suggested the suffix *:<appname>=*

And this situation seems to be common. E.g., for the same POI: [2] and [3]

> Maintainability of the tag might be an issue - how often does the
> delivery supplier change? In my area there are at least 3 delivery
> suppliers all competing for business.

In here delivery suppliers don't seem to have exclusivity in POI's
deliveries. So naturally there are some of them working with the same
POI.

*:<appname>=* can avoid problems with many suppliers

[1] - https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/delivery%3Adeliveroo
[2] - https://www.ifood.com.br/delivery/santa-maria-rs/camobi-pizza-camobi/cd4983de-4ba3-4f00-8946-35a52884722b
[3] - https://www.deliverymuch.com.br/dm/santa-maria-rs/camobi-pizza-p7wk7
[4] - https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/contact%3Adeliveroo

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Re: Apps of delivery

Graeme Fitzpatrick
In reply to this post by TonyS


On Sun, 12 May 2019 at 19:28, Tony Shield <[hidden email]> wrote:
Like the idea.

delivery_contact might be better.

I prefer delivery over contact

Maybe (using our local companies as an eg) 
delivery:ubereats="url"
delivery:menulog="url"
delivery:deliveroo="url"
with "url" in each case being that delivery companies online menu for that restaurant?

Thanks

Graeme

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Re: Apps of delivery

Graeme Fitzpatrick
In reply to this post by santamariense
I don't know why this message appeared separately in my in-box to the other messages in this thread?

Please ignore my other reply as you've already covered it here! :-)
 
Thanks

Graeme

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Re: Apps of delivery

Jmapb
In reply to this post by Graeme Fitzpatrick

On 5/12/2019 8:19 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:

On Sun, 12 May 2019 at 19:28, Tony Shield <[hidden email]> wrote:
Like the idea.

delivery_contact might be better.

I prefer delivery over contact

Maybe (using our local companies as an eg) 
delivery:ubereats="url"
delivery:menulog="url"
delivery:deliveroo="url"
with "url" in each case being that delivery companies online menu for that restaurant?

I'm reluctant to recommend the OSM database as the best place to collect links to the individual restaurant pages of various delivery services. I prefer this "delivery:partner=*" recommendation on https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:delivery . The value could be semicoloned, eg delivery:partner=deliveroo;menulog;ubereats.

And if delivery:*=* is adopted, I'd recommend to start with delivery:*=yes and make the url optional. (=yes might ultimately be a better idea... any app who wanted to link to the delivery services could forward the restaurant name and address to the service's search url, and we wouldn't have the duty of maintaining the individual restaurant links for each service. It means the links wouldn't be available directly from https://openstreetmap.org, but I'm fine with that.)

One weakness of both of these schemes is that there's no obvious way to indicate that the restaurant also does deliveries itself -- which many of them do, and prefer to do, since they don't have to give a cut to a dot-com middle man.

On principal I'm not a fan of giving airtime to these delivery services because of their predatory behavior -- listing restaurants without their consent, and squatting on restaurantname.com websites to steer traffic to their service. I've complained about these guys in the talk-us list; I'm not sure if their behavior worldwide is as sleazy as it is here in NYC but I wouldn't doubt it.

If these proposed tags are used I would strongly recommend that they be based only on physically (or photographically) verifiable signage, not just on the fact that a restaurant can be found in the online database of a given service -- which might be entirely involuntary, and therefore not, in fact, a verifiable property of the restaurant itself.

Jason


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Re: Apps of delivery

dieterdreist


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On 13. May 2019, at 18:06, Jmapb <[hidden email]> wrote:

I'm reluctant to recommend the OSM database as the best place to collect links to the individual restaurant pages of various delivery services. I prefer this "delivery:partner=*" recommendation on https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:delivery . The value could be semicoloned, eg delivery:partner=deliveroo;menulog;ubereats.



+1

And if delivery:*=* is adopted, I'd recommend to start with delivery:*=yes and make the url optional.



+1

One weakness of both of these schemes is that there's no obvious way to indicate that the restaurant also does deliveries itself -- which many of them do, and prefer to do, since they don't have to give a cut to a dot-com middle man.


Right, maybe we should introduce a code for this to be added along the delivery partners, something like “self”? (naturally this would break if a company called self would offer delivery services).
Maybe the delivery:partner tag should be called delivery:operator (self would fit better)?


On principal I'm not a fan of giving airtime to these delivery services because of their predatory behavior 



yes, just because we agreed on a tagging scheme doesn’t imply we have to add these tags ;-)

...s are used I would strongly recommend that they be based only on physically (or photographically) verifiable signage, not just on the fact that a restaurant can be found in the online database of a given service --



I’ve hardly seen signage (yet), but some restaurants have flyers and advertising on the bill.



which might be entirely involuntary, and therefore not, in fact, a verifiable property of the restaurant itself.



verifiable facts about a restaurant (or other feature) might not always be verifiable in the feature itself, but still be verifiable for everybody interested in it (elsewhere). If the URL is accessible for everybody it would satisfy the verifiability requirement, wouldn’t it?


Cheers, Martin 

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Re: Apps of delivery

Jmapb

On 5/13/2019 12:35 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

verifiable facts about a restaurant (or other feature) might not always be verifiable in the feature itself, but still be verifiable for everybody interested in it (elsewhere). If the URL is accessible for everybody it would satisfy the verifiability requirement, wouldn’t it?

Here's one story from a local restaurant: Fancy place, doesn't even do takeaway, much less delivery. One day the telephone starting ringing like crazy with takeaway orders. Eventually (the callers didn't initially make it clear) the restaurant owner discovers these are online orders from a delivery service that are being phoned in by the service's employees. He checks the service's website and there's his restaurant -- listed as new, featured on the neighborhood's page, and offering special discounts. The menu is there -- entirely wrong! Not just the prices, but the menu at this restaurant changes seasonally and the dishes were all from six months ago. He couldn't have filled the orders if he'd wanted to, because the ingredients were not in stock.

This delivery service never contacted him for permission to be listed. It never warned him that he was about to be featured. And now he's angry, and the customers placing these orders are angry at the restaurant and giving it bad reviews. Explaining the situation to the low-level employees making the phone calls is not effective. He spends the rest of the day trying to contact someone in management at the delivery service to have the restaurant removed. They refuse. They're doing him a favor. Get with the times, etc. The fact that he's physically incapable of filling these orders doesn't sway them. He threatens legal action, they threaten back!

So he hires a lawyer, who writes a cease-and-desist letter. The service removes him from the front page, but doesn't actually delete his listing until weeks later.

If this all sounds like a racket, well yes, it is! But it's a legal grey area, so instead of being dismantled as a criminal enterprise, this delivery company is valued at millions of dollars.

I have another friend who runs a restaurant, and she also reported being bullied by delivery services. Not as dramatic a story, but also listed without permission. So that's two data points, but these are the only two restaurateurs I know.

So this is why I believe that the appearance of a restaurant in a delivery service's database should not be considered a verifiable property of the restaurant itself. If it's signed on the door or the menu, sure! But these services also engage in restaurantname.com domain squatting, hosting fake restaurant websites intended to drive delivery, so I wouldn't even trust a restaurant's website unless it links to more than one service.

(I suppose if you successfully place an order and receive your food through a particular service, that's another form of verification. But be aware that the restaurant may have been coerced into this relationship.)

Jason


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Re: Apps of delivery

marc marc
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
Le 13.05.19 à 18:35, Martin Koppenhoefer a écrit :
>> there's no obvious way to indicate that the restaurant also does
>> deliveries itself
>
> Right, maybe we should introduce a code for this to be added along the
> delivery partners, something like “self”? (naturally this would break if
> a company called self would offer delivery services).
> Maybe the delivery:partner tag should be called delivery:operator (self
> would fit better)?

or use the name of the poi in the delivery:operator value :
delivery:operator=deliveroo;<the name of the poi>
so you 'll never have a clash between the "fake" value and
the name of a company
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Re: Apps of delivery

Graeme Fitzpatrick
Wow, thanks for all that, Jason!

I don't use any of these delivery services myself, nor know any restaurant owners, so wasn't aware that sort of thing happened, although I knew they were more expensive than picking your meal up yourself.

So, yes, delete the URL & only go with what is on the restaurant's door / menu.

On Tue, 14 May 2019 at 02:07, Jmapb <[hidden email]> wrote:

One weakness of both of these schemes is that there's no obvious way to indicate that the restaurant also does deliveries itself -- which many of them do, and prefer to do, since they don't have to give a cut to a dot-com middle man.

Maybe =self-delivered / own_delivery / "restaurant's name" ? 

Thanks

Graeme

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Re: Apps of delivery

santamariense
In reply to this post by santamariense
> or use the name of the poi in the delivery:operator value :
> delivery:operator=deliveroo;<the name of the poi>
> so you 'll never have a clash between the "fake" value and
> the name of a company

Possibly there'll be more than 1 POI within the same name on the same operator.

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Re: Apps of delivery

marc marc
Le 14.05.19 à 23:17, santamariense a écrit :
>> or use the name of the poi in the delivery:operator value :
>> delivery:operator=deliveroo;<the name of the poi>
>> so you 'll never have a clash between the "fake" value and
>> the name of a company
>
> Possibly there'll be more than 1 POI within the same name on the same operator.

I didn't understand what you mean. Exemple :
amenity=restaurant
name=foo
delivery:operator=deliveroo;foo
mean that 2 operators are available for this restaurant : deliveroo
and the restaurant itself.

of course another restaurant elsewhere may also have foo as name
but it's not the same objet in osm, no clash between both.
you don't confuse phone numbers either, so why would you confuse
the delivery operators?
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Re: Apps of delivery

Sebastian Dicke
In reply to this post by Graeme Fitzpatrick

To use "restaurant's name" is maybe not a good idea. It would easier to parse a standard value for it. This would also help to avoid possible problems if the name of the location is typed manually instead of copy and paste it.


Sebastian


Am 13.05.19 um 23:45 schrieb Graeme Fitzpatrick:

On Tue, 14 May 2019 at 02:07, Jmapb <[hidden email]> wrote:

One weakness of both of these schemes is that there's no obvious way to indicate that the restaurant also does deliveries itself -- which many of them do, and prefer to do, since they don't have to give a cut to a dot-com middle man.

Maybe =self-delivered / own_delivery / "restaurant's name" ? 


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Re: Apps of delivery

santamariense
In reply to this post by santamariense
> I didn't understand what you mean. Exemple :
> amenity=restaurant
> name=foo
> delivery:operator=deliveroo;foo
> mean that 2 operators are available for this restaurant : deliveroo
> and the restaurant itself.

Ohh sorry, well... I misunderstood you. I thought that you've meant:
"foo" in "deliveroo;foo" is how one would find "foo" in "deliveroo"
site/app.

> of course another restaurant elsewhere may also have foo as name
> but it's not the same objet in osm, no clash between both.
> you don't confuse phone numbers either, so why would you confuse
> the delivery operators?

Anyway there's no guarantee that the final user will find the correct
"foo" on operator's site/app only by its name. It's like to use the
tag contact:social_media=facebook;twitter.

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Re: Apps of delivery

Philip Barnes
We have deliveroo operating locally, however I have never seen verifiable evidence on the restaurants that they offer that service.

Therefore I would not consider this a suitable thing to tag in OSM.

Phil (trigpoint)

On Wednesday, 15 May 2019, santamariense wrote:

> > I didn't understand what you mean. Exemple :
> > amenity=restaurant
> > name=foo
> > delivery:operator=deliveroo;foo
> > mean that 2 operators are available for this restaurant : deliveroo
> > and the restaurant itself.
>
> Ohh sorry, well... I misunderstood you. I thought that you've meant:
> "foo" in "deliveroo;foo" is how one would find "foo" in "deliveroo"
> site/app.
>
> > of course another restaurant elsewhere may also have foo as name
> > but it's not the same objet in osm, no clash between both.
> > you don't confuse phone numbers either, so why would you confuse
> > the delivery operators?
>
> Anyway there's no guarantee that the final user will find the correct
> "foo" on operator's site/app only by its name. It's like to use the
> tag contact:social_media=facebook;twitter.
>
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Re: Apps of delivery

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

> On 15. May 2019, at 11:32, Philip Barnes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> We have deliveroo operating locally, however I have never seen verifiable evidence on the restaurants that they offer that service.
>
> Therefore I would not consider this a suitable thing to tag in OSM.


would you consider the thing validated if you ordered through them and the order arrived?

Cheers, Martin
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Re: Apps of delivery

Tom Pfeifer
On 15.05.2019 17:07, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>> On 15. May 2019, at 11:32, Philip Barnes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> We have deliveroo operating locally, however I have never seen verifiable evidence on the restaurants that they offer that service.
>>
>> Therefore I would not consider this a suitable thing to tag in OSM.
>
> would you consider the thing validated if you ordered through them and the order arrived?

That means, validation comes at the cost of an order?

I am against mapping business policies in OSM, which include

- detailed stock listings in the style nuts:stainless:metric:m5 = yes
- delivery services with which a restaurant or furniture shop cooperates.

tom

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Re: Apps of delivery

Philip Barnes
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
On Wednesday, 15 May 2019, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 15. May 2019, at 11:32, Philip Barnes <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > We have deliveroo operating locally, however I have never seen verifiable evidence on the restaurants that they offer that service.
> >
> > Therefore I would not consider this a suitable thing to tag in OSM.
>
>
> would you consider the thing validated if you ordered through them and the order arrived?
>
No, because that doesn't verify that the restaurant has endorsed the service.

If the food is cold would the restaurant accept my complaint.

Anybody can set up a company to buy something and sell it on at an inflated price.

Phil (trigpoint)

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Re: Apps of delivery

Paul Allen
On Wed, 15 May 2019 at 16:57, Philip Barnes <[hidden email]> wrote:
 
No, because that doesn't verify that the restaurant has endorsed the service.

If the food is cold would the restaurant accept my complaint.

Anybody can set up a company to buy something and sell it on at an inflated price.

I hadn't considered that possibility.  I was already leaning towards the opinion that many of
these services were likely to be ephemeral.  Some may have been set up purely to milk
money from investors and will never turn a profit.  Some may be honest endeavours but
will ultimately fail.  Some may have a workable business model that will break if/when
legislation ever appears to make the gig economy more fair to the workers.  Even if
two or three survive all that, market forces may mean takeaways switch allegiances
frequently in order to get the best deal and it would be no more sensible to map them
than it would be to map the "dish of the day."

And now, as you point out, some of these will be chancers who are not working in
co-operation with the takeaways and the takeaways themselves may not want to be
associated with them.

Overall, this tag seems to be a bad idea.  Just tag that the takeaway itself offers deliveries
by some means.  We don't care if they have their own driver(s) or if they make use of
these services, just that they offer deliveries.  See the takeaway's website or phone them for
more details.  If you want to risk using a delivery service app, that's down to you and the app
installed on your phone.  You'd need the app to make the order anyway, so you don't need us
to map which takeaways it claims to service.

--
Paul


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Re: Apps of delivery

Tagging mailing list
In reply to this post by Philip Barnes
On 2019-05-15 2:32 a.m., Philip Barnes wrote:
> We have deliveroo operating locally, however I have never seen verifiable evidence on the restaurants that they offer that service.

Deliveroo might not, but there are delivery services that are indicated
on restaurant doors here.


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