Area with restaurants, hotels, cinemas - is it landuse=commercial?

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Area with restaurants, hotels, cinemas - is it landuse=commercial?

Mateusz Konieczny-3

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Re: Area with restaurants, hotels, cinemas - is it landuse=commercial?

Graeme Fitzpatrick


On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 at 07:32, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:
Based on my understanding of term "commercial ara" and how landuse tagging is used in OSM
I think that area with restaurants, hotels, cinemas fits landuse=commercial.

I would have thought that it would be =retail rather than =commercial?

Thanks

Graeme 

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Re: Area with restaurants, hotels, cinemas - is it landuse=commercial?

Mateusz Konieczny-3

28. Oct 2018 23:14 by [hidden email]:

On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 at 07:32, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:
Based on my understanding of term "commercial ara" and how landuse tagging is used in OSM
I think that area with restaurants, hotels, cinemas fits landuse=commercial.

I would have thought that it would be =retail rather than =commercial?


I can see that for restaurants (see recent discussion that recommended building=retail

or building=shop for buildings constructed as a restaurant).


But are you sure that retail is better than commercial for hotels and cinemas?


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Re: Area with restaurants, hotels, cinemas - is it landuse=commercial?

Daniel Koć
In reply to this post by Graeme Fitzpatrick
W dniu 28.10.2018 o 23:14, Graeme Fitzpatrick pisze:
On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 at 07:32, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:
Based on my understanding of term "commercial ara" and how landuse tagging is used in OSM
I think that area with restaurants, hotels, cinemas fits landuse=commercial.

I would have thought that it would be =retail rather than =commercial?


I also think so - when we have two similar landuses, we should use the one which is more specific:

1. "Commercial" landuse has been defined more general, as if it was "offices" mainly, but also including sale:

"Commercial landuse mainly deals with services and trade (tertiary sector). Such area may consists of offices, administration, laboratories, warehouses (logistics park), car repair stations and their associated infrastructure (car parks, service roads, lawns and so-on)."

2. Unfortunately retail is similar, but mainly about sale:

"Predominantly shops and their associated infrastructure (car parks, service roads, lawns and so-on)."


-- 
"Excuse me, I have some growing up to do" [P. Gabriel]

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Re: Area with restaurants, hotels, cinemas - is it landuse=commercial?

Graeme Fitzpatrick


On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 at 08:26, Daniel Koć <[hidden email]> wrote:
"Commercial landuse mainly deals with services and trade (tertiary sector). Such area may consists of offices, administration, laboratories, warehouses (logistics park), car repair stations and their associated infrastructure (car parks, service roads, lawns and so-on)."
 
Not too sure why "car repair stations" would be included in that list though, when you have shop=car_repair, which strikes me as either retail or maybe industrial?
 
Thanks

Graeme

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Re: Area with restaurants, hotels, cinemas - is it landuse=commercial?

Mateusz Konieczny-3
In reply to this post by Mateusz Konieczny-3
I made first edits - documenting that restaurants, fast food places, fuel stations are
considered retail for landuse purposes - see



28. Oct 2018 22:30 by [hidden email]:


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Re: Area with restaurants, hotels, cinemas - is it landuse=commercial?

SelfishSeahorse
In reply to this post by Mateusz Konieczny-3
I'm not very happy with our definition of landuse=commercial as it
isn't self-explanatory: it is mainly used for offices and warehouses,
while retail, although belonging to commerce, has its own landuse=*
value. In my opinion, it would make more sense either to tag retail as
landuse=commercial + commercial=retail or to tag different commercial
land uses with separate landuse=* values, e.g. landuse=offices,
landuse=wholesale or landuse=storage.

Concerning restaurants, hotels and cinemas:

    - Restaurants are more similar to shops than to offices or
warehouses (what landuse=commercial is mainly used for), so i think
landuse=retails is ok.

    - Hotels are more about services than sale, so i wouldn't use
landuse=retail for them. Maybe landuse=residential?

    - Cinemas: What about landuse=leisure?

Regards

Markus

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Re: Area with restaurants, hotels, cinemas - is it landuse=commercial?

Graeme Fitzpatrick


On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 at 23:23, SelfishSeahorse <[hidden email]> wrote:

    - Hotels are more about services than sale, so i wouldn't use
landuse=retail for them. Maybe landuse=residential?

I think that one would depend on what sort of hotel we're talking about?

Is it a place to stay: tourism=accommodation, which would / could be =residential,
or a place to get a cold beer: amenity=pub, which I think would still be =retail?
 
    - Cinemas: What about landuse=leisure?

There's probably a good case for landuse=leisure, but I think you'll probably get a few arguments against as well!

Thanks

Graeme


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Re: Area with restaurants, hotels, cinemas - is it landuse=commercial?

bkil
I use commercial and retail landuse a lot. If you plan to do some
refactoring, please consider that a map is most informative if it has
distinct colours. if we applied landuse=residential on hotels, it
would blend in with other houses. To me, mapping non-housing areas
where some kind of commercial activities are taking place in a
different value is a bonus. However, we probably shouldn't have more
than a handful of colors inside the same city center, maybe 4 tops.

Also, has anybody got a rule of thumb when to map a multi-use area as
retail considering that it is common to see shops and cafes on the
first floor of tall buildings?
On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 9:33 PM Graeme Fitzpatrick
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
>
> On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 at 23:23, SelfishSeahorse <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>     - Hotels are more about services than sale, so i wouldn't use
>> landuse=retail for them. Maybe landuse=residential?
>
>
> I think that one would depend on what sort of hotel we're talking about?
>
> Is it a place to stay: tourism=accommodation, which would / could be =residential,
> or a place to get a cold beer: amenity=pub, which I think would still be =retail?
>
>>
>>     - Cinemas: What about landuse=leisure?
>
>
> There's probably a good case for landuse=leisure, but I think you'll probably get a few arguments against as well!
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

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Re: Area with restaurants, hotels, cinemas - is it landuse=commercial?

Joseph Eisenberg
We should map the most intensive landuse, from a map user standpoint. So a mixed-use area of tall buildings would be retail. There might be condos and apartments on the 20th to 40th floor, offices on the 10th 20th floors, a garage for cars from floor 2 to 9, but the first couple of levels are retail, therefore it is just as interesting as a 1 or 2 Storey retail building for map users.

I believe one of the wiki pages already suggests mapping the “highest” / most valuable landuse. In other words, retail > commercial > industrial / residential.
On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 6:29 AM bkil <bkil.hu+[hidden email]> wrote:
I use commercial and retail landuse a lot. If you plan to do some
refactoring, please consider that a map is most informative if it has
distinct colours. if we applied landuse=residential on hotels, it
would blend in with other houses. To me, mapping non-housing areas
where some kind of commercial activities are taking place in a
different value is a bonus. However, we probably shouldn't have more
than a handful of colors inside the same city center, maybe 4 tops.

Also, has anybody got a rule of thumb when to map a multi-use area as
retail considering that it is common to see shops and cafes on the
first floor of tall buildings?
On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 9:33 PM Graeme Fitzpatrick
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 at 23:23, SelfishSeahorse <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>     - Hotels are more about services than sale, so i wouldn't use
>> landuse=retail for them. Maybe landuse=residential?
>
>
> I think that one would depend on what sort of hotel we're talking about?
>
> Is it a place to stay: tourism=accommodation, which would / could be =residential,
> or a place to get a cold beer: amenity=pub, which I think would still be =retail?
>
>>
>>     - Cinemas: What about landuse=leisure?
>
>
> There's probably a good case for landuse=leisure, but I think you'll probably get a few arguments against as well!
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

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Re: Area with restaurants, hotels, cinemas - is it landuse=commercial?

Graeme Fitzpatrick


On Tue, 30 Oct 2018 at 08:51, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
We should map the most intensive landuse, from a map user standpoint. So a mixed-use area of tall buildings would be retail. There might be condos and apartments on the 20th to 40th floor, offices on the 10th 20th floors, a garage for cars from floor 2 to 9, but the first couple of levels are retail, therefore it is just as interesting as a 1 or 2 Storey retail building for map users.

But the wiki for apartments https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:building%3Dapartments says in part
"Some apartment blocks may also have retail outlets on the ground floor" with one example being
Residential tower - The Taikoo Shing development on Hong Kong Island involved placing a large number of tower apartment blocks above a large shopping mall. 
 
So wouldn't that building you described also be a building=apartment with landuse=residential? 

Thanks

Graeme

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Re: Area with restaurants, hotels, cinemas - is it landuse=commercial?

Joseph Eisenberg
If it’s 40 storeys of apartments above a 3 storey mall, use landuse=retail for the whole mall area, and building=apartment for the residential towers. The whole, larger mall building could probably be building=mall; it sounds like there are several tall but narrow residential towers around or on top of a bigger mall.

Basically, retail is the most interesting landuse. Consider that Google shows very few areas on its maps, but it does highlight retail areas as “areas of interest”, because they contain the shops and restaurants that people are most likely to want to search for.

You only look for a new job or residence very occasionally, but most of us like to eat out and shop once a week or more (even in poor countries like here in Indonesia).

Commercial areas are less important but are still more likely to be destinations of trips, compared to residential and industrial.

I initially disliked the idea of only tagging retail landuse for mixed-use urban centers, but it makes sense based on the need to tag one feature on one area, and the limited options for rendering maps with overlapping landuse.
On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 8:11 AM Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Tue, 30 Oct 2018 at 08:51, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
We should map the most intensive landuse, from a map user standpoint. So a mixed-use area of tall buildings would be retail. There might be condos and apartments on the 20th to 40th floor, offices on the 10th 20th floors, a garage for cars from floor 2 to 9, but the first couple of levels are retail, therefore it is just as interesting as a 1 or 2 Storey retail building for map users.

But the wiki for apartments https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:building%3Dapartments says in part
"Some apartment blocks may also have retail outlets on the ground floor" with one example being
Residential tower - The Taikoo Shing development on Hong Kong Island involved placing a large number of tower apartment blocks above a large shopping mall. 
 
So wouldn't that building you described also be a building=apartment with landuse=residential? 

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: Area with restaurants, hotels, cinemas - is it landuse=commercial?

Michael Patrick
In reply to this post by Mateusz Konieczny-3
> If it’s 40 storeys of apartments above a 3 storey mall, use landuse=retail
for the whole mall area, and building=apartment for the residential towers.
The whole, larger mall building could probably be building=mall; it sounds
like there are several tall but narrow residential towers around or on top
of a bigger mall.

You're describing ( in the USA anyways) Mixed Use classification.
Mixed-use development is a type of urban development that blends residential, commercial, cultural, institutional, or entertainment uses, where those functions are physically and functionally integrated, and that provides pedestrian connections. Mixed-use development can take the form of a single building, a city block, or entire neighbourhoods. The term may also be used more specifically to refer to a mixed-use real estate development project—a building, complex of buildings, or district of a town or city that is developed for mixed-use by a private developer, (quasi-) governmental agency, or a combination thereof.

In the USA, under the impetus of Growth Management legislation in most states and metropolitan areas, the concept isn't only restricted to urban areas.

> Commercial areas are less important but are still more likely to be destinations of trips, compared to residential and industrial.

There is lots of trip data, but most trips are multiple pairs and or multi-modal.
> I initially disliked the idea of only tagging retail landuse for mixed-use
> urban centers, but it makes sense based on the need to tag one feature on
> one area, and the limited options for rendering maps with overlapping
> landuse.

Back in 1994, after examining existing schemes, the APA came up with the LBCS as a minimal schema to make sense of the semantics of LULC. The EU also has a similar LULC harmonization under the INSPIRE framework.

Michael Patrick
Data Ferret

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Re: Area with restaurants, hotels, cinemas - is it landuse=commercial?

bkil
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg
Yes, I agree that this sounds reasonable.
On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 1:23 AM Joseph Eisenberg
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> If it’s 40 storeys of apartments above a 3 storey mall, use landuse=retail for the whole mall area, and building=apartment for the residential towers. The whole, larger mall building could probably be building=mall; it sounds like there are several tall but narrow residential towers around or on top of a bigger mall.
>
> Basically, retail is the most interesting landuse. Consider that Google shows very few areas on its maps, but it does highlight retail areas as “areas of interest”, because they contain the shops and restaurants that people are most likely to want to search for.
>
> You only look for a new job or residence very occasionally, but most of us like to eat out and shop once a week or more (even in poor countries like here in Indonesia).
>
> Commercial areas are less important but are still more likely to be destinations of trips, compared to residential and industrial.
>
> I initially disliked the idea of only tagging retail landuse for mixed-use urban centers, but it makes sense based on the need to tag one feature on one area, and the limited options for rendering maps with overlapping landuse.
> On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 8:11 AM Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 30 Oct 2018 at 08:51, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> We should map the most intensive landuse, from a map user standpoint. So a mixed-use area of tall buildings would be retail. There might be condos and apartments on the 20th to 40th floor, offices on the 10th 20th floors, a garage for cars from floor 2 to 9, but the first couple of levels are retail, therefore it is just as interesting as a 1 or 2 Storey retail building for map users.
>>
>>
>> But the wiki for apartments https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:building%3Dapartments says in part
>> "Some apartment blocks may also have retail outlets on the ground floor" with one example being
>> Residential tower - The Taikoo Shing development on Hong Kong Island involved placing a large number of tower apartment blocks above a large shopping mall.
>>
>> So wouldn't that building you described also be a building=apartment with landuse=residential?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Graeme
>> _______________________________________________
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Re: Area with restaurants, hotels, cinemas - is it landuse=commercial?

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

On 1. Nov 2018, at 15:47, bkil <[hidden email]> wrote:

I initially disliked the idea of only tagging retail landuse for mixed-use urban centers, but it makes sense based on the need to tag one feature on one area, and the limited options for rendering maps with overlapping landuse.


I still believe we could have landuse for mixed areas. It was my first proposal in OSM, ten years ago:

and I had almost forgotten about it ;-)

Cheers, Martin 

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