Automatically generated changeset discussion comments by OSMCha

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Automatically generated changeset discussion comments by OSMCha

Michael Reichert-3
Hi,

OSMCha started posting comments to changesets a few days ago when a user
marks a changeset as good or bad.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/wille/diary/43101
I would like to ask the author(s) of OSMCha to disable this feature.

We expect to read all mappers incoming message (personal messages and
changeset comments). If third-party tools start to post comments to lots
of changesets automatically, this is some kind of spamming. If OSM sends
to much emails to a user, the user will probably ignore them or treat
them as spam.

I think that OSMCha should not post a comment automatically except if
the user has explicitly asked for feedback or there are quality issues
regarding the edit (mistakes, vandalism, guideline violations or
anything else which makes it necessary to talk to the user).

I post this email to this mailing list instead of filing a bug report a
Github [1] because I want to bring this problem to the wider audience
and initiate a general discussion on the acceptable usage of the
changeset comments API.

What are your thoughts and opinions on this issue?

Best regards

Michael


[1] Btw, which Github repository would be the correct one the file the
bug report at?
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=osmcha+github&t=ffsb&ia=web


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Re: Automatically generated changeset discussion comments by OSMCha

Bryan Housel
I love this feature, and I hope Wille keeps it in.
The message is very well written, and it’s not spam if the user asks for their changeset to be reviewed and then somebody actually does it.

Thanks Bryan


> On Jan 12, 2018, at 9:07 AM, Michael Reichert <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> OSMCha started posting comments to changesets a few days ago when a user
> marks a changeset as good or bad.
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/wille/diary/43101
> I would like to ask the author(s) of OSMCha to disable this feature.
>
> We expect to read all mappers incoming message (personal messages and
> changeset comments). If third-party tools start to post comments to lots
> of changesets automatically, this is some kind of spamming. If OSM sends
> to much emails to a user, the user will probably ignore them or treat
> them as spam.
>
> I think that OSMCha should not post a comment automatically except if
> the user has explicitly asked for feedback or there are quality issues
> regarding the edit (mistakes, vandalism, guideline violations or
> anything else which makes it necessary to talk to the user).
>
> I post this email to this mailing list instead of filing a bug report a
> Github [1] because I want to bring this problem to the wider audience
> and initiate a general discussion on the acceptable usage of the
> changeset comments API.
>
> What are your thoughts and opinions on this issue?
>
> Best regards
>
> Michael
>
>
> [1] Btw, which Github repository would be the correct one the file the
> bug report at?
> https://duckduckgo.com/?q=osmcha+github&t=ffsb&ia=web
>
>
> --
> Per E-Mail kommuniziere ich bevorzugt GPG-verschlüsselt. (Mailinglisten
> ausgenommen)
> I prefer GPG encryption of emails. (does not apply on mailing lists)
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk


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Fwd: Automatically generated changeset discussion comments by OSMCha

Erwin Olario
In reply to this post by Michael Reichert-3

reposting an earlier reply, which i mistakenly sent directly just to Michael
---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Erwin Olario <[hidden email]>
Date: Fri, Jan 12, 2018 at 10:15 PM
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Automatically generated changeset discussion comments by OSMCha
To: Michael Reichert <[hidden email]>


I believe it's a good idea. At present, any OSM user (and all OsmCha users, are OSM users) can leave any comment to a changeset, whether or not the mapper asked for any.

Earlier, I filed a ticket to enhance OsmCha behavior. Instead of posting a default message, the reviewer should leave details outlining how the changeset could be improved (or why they think it's bad.)

[0]: https://github.com/mapbox/osmcha-frontend/issues/248

On Fri, Jan 12, 2018 at 10:10 PM Michael Reichert <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

OSMCha started posting comments to changesets a few days ago when a user
marks a changeset as good or bad.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/wille/diary/43101
I would like to ask the author(s) of OSMCha to disable this feature.

We expect to read all mappers incoming message (personal messages and
changeset comments). If third-party tools start to post comments to lots
of changesets automatically, this is some kind of spamming. If OSM sends
to much emails to a user, the user will probably ignore them or treat
them as spam.

I think that OSMCha should not post a comment automatically except if
the user has explicitly asked for feedback or there are quality issues
regarding the edit (mistakes, vandalism, guideline violations or
anything else which makes it necessary to talk to the user).

I post this email to this mailing list instead of filing a bug report a
Github [1] because I want to bring this problem to the wider audience
and initiate a general discussion on the acceptable usage of the
changeset comments API.

What are your thoughts and opinions on this issue?

Best regards

Michael


[1] Btw, which Github repository would be the correct one the file the
bug report at?
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=osmcha+github&t=ffsb&ia=web


--
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ausgenommen)
I prefer GPG encryption of emails. (does not apply on mailing lists)

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Re: Automatically generated changeset discussion comments by OSMCha

Michael Reichert-3
In reply to this post by Bryan Housel
Hi,

Am 2018-01-12 um 15:13 schrieb Bryan Housel:
> I love this feature, and I hope Wille keeps it in.
> The message is very well written, and it’s not spam if the user asks for their changeset to be reviewed and then somebody actually does it.

It should be optional to post a changeset comment. If someone marks all
changesets in his home area as good, all changesets get a comment. If I
get a comment on all my changesets, I will write a filter on my personal
mail server to drop all these unsolicited emails (all comments with the
OSMCha default text). I can write filters on my own but I am sure that
many of our users are not able to do (or don't want to do and might
reduce their OSM activity).

Ideally, this comment should be localized. If a user uses the German
locale of his editor, he should the receive the comment in German if the
reviewer also uses a German locale (it is then very likely that they
would use German for their normal conversation). Receiving lots of
similar foreign-language comments is not far away from receiving ten
emails whose subject is "Bitcoin Millions".

That's why I consider it as some kind of spam (half of all recent
comments are just automatically generated):
http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussions?c=Germany#6/51.727/9.338

All in all, the usage of the changeset discussions by OSMCha just points
out that a feature is missing on osm.org. This cannot be fully replaced
by a third-party application.

Best regards

Michael

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Re: Automatically generated changeset discussion comments by OSMCha

Mike N.
In reply to this post by Bryan Housel
On 1/12/2018 9:13 AM, Bryan Housel wrote:
> I love this feature, and I hope Wille keeps it in.
> The message is very well written, and it’s not spam if the user asks for their changeset to be reviewed and then somebody actually does it.

   I haven't used this yet because I wanted to add my own detail to the
message.   A quick sampling of these shows that most are in response to
review_requested.   I did run across 2 that did not have review
requested however - the message is occasionally being used instead of a
dedicated thumbs up/down flag on changesets.


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Re: Automatically generated changeset discussion comments by OSMCha

Maarten Deen
In reply to this post by Michael Reichert-3
On 2018-01-12 15:07, Michael Reichert wrote:

> Hi,
>
> OSMCha started posting comments to changesets a few days ago when a
> user
> marks a changeset as good or bad.
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/wille/diary/43101
> I would like to ask the author(s) of OSMCha to disable this feature.
>
> We expect to read all mappers incoming message (personal messages and
> changeset comments). If third-party tools start to post comments to
> lots
> of changesets automatically, this is some kind of spamming. If OSM
> sends
> to much emails to a user, the user will probably ignore them or treat
> them as spam.
>
> I think that OSMCha should not post a comment automatically except if
> the user has explicitly asked for feedback or there are quality issues
> regarding the edit (mistakes, vandalism, guideline violations or
> anything else which makes it necessary to talk to the user).
>
> I post this email to this mailing list instead of filing a bug report a
> Github [1] because I want to bring this problem to the wider audience
> and initiate a general discussion on the acceptable usage of the
> changeset comments API.
>
> What are your thoughts and opinions on this issue?

I agree. I would see a comment like that as very condescending.
Mind you: I have not used OSMcha and when I tried to use it
(osmcha.mapbox.com ?) I can't seem to log in. I get a few error messages
and the sign in box does nothing.
So I can't really check what kinds of edits would be affected by this.

Maarten

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Re: Automatically generated changeset discussion comments by OSMCha

Mateusz Konieczny-2
In reply to this post by Michael Reichert-3
On Fri, 12 Jan 2018 15:07:11 +0100
Michael Reichert <[hidden email]> wrote:

>  If third-party tools start to post comments to lots
> of changesets automatically

In that case that would be clearly wrong.

But if I understand

> From now on, when we review a changeset in OSMCha, a comment will be
> posted in the OSM changeset page.

correctly then it is not automatic. It is posted from other tool/site
but allowing this is a purpose of API.

Is there any evidence that these
comments are spammy or used in de-facto automatic fashion? Os its it
really automatic and I misunderstand situation.

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Re: Automatically generated changeset discussion comments by OSMCha

Andy Townsend
In reply to this post by Michael Reichert-3
On 12/01/2018 14:07, Michael Reichert wrote:
> Hi,
>
> OSMCha started posting comments to changesets a few days ago when a user
> marks a changeset as good or bad.
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/wille/diary/43101
> I would like to ask the author(s) of OSMCha to disable this feature.

The example given at
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/wille/diary/43101 is certainly
"insufficiently localised" to European eyes (alternatively, "written by
a six-year-old") - every sentence ends with an exclamation mark*.

More seriously, any automatic use of OSM messages is problematical
because it devalues the messages that we want people to actually read -
the ones that are composed by and sent be a human, and have actual
useful information in them (and I'm glad to see that Mike N said "I
haven't used this yet because I wanted to add my own detail to the
message" - that's exactly what should be happening).

Best Regards,
Andy

* apparently, according to
http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20170301-what-overusing-exclamation-marks-says-about-you 
, this is a matter of life and death :)


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Re: Automatically generated changeset discussion comments by OSMCha

Bryan Housel
In reply to this post by Mike N.
Yes, I agree the feature could be improved.

Helpful:
- "I think it should be more clear that clicking the button will add a changeset comment”
- “I think localization could be improved and I’d love to help with this”
- “I would like the opportunity to customize the message or see it before it is posted”

Unhelpful:
- “This feature is spam equivalent to “Bitcoin Millions" ”
- “I am posting this to the talk list instead of directly working with the developer to improve it”
- “I have not even bothered to figure out which GitHub repo to open an issue in"
- “To European eyes the comments look like they were written by a six-year-old”


Be nice everyone!



> On Jan 12, 2018, at 9:25 AM, Mike N <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 1/12/2018 9:13 AM, Bryan Housel wrote:
>> I love this feature, and I hope Wille keeps it in.
>> The message is very well written, and it’s not spam if the user asks for their changeset to be reviewed and then somebody actually does it.
>
>  I haven't used this yet because I wanted to add my own detail to the message.   A quick sampling of these shows that most are in response to review_requested.   I did run across 2 that did not have review requested however - the message is occasionally being used instead of a dedicated thumbs up/down flag on changesets.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk


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Re: Automatically generated changeset discussion comments by OSMCha

Andy Townsend
On 12/01/2018 14:52, Bryan Housel wrote:
> - “To European eyes the comments look like they were written by a six-year-old”
>
>
> Be nice everyone!

Bryan, this is "being nice" in English.  It's a reply that incorporates
a certain amount of humour (quotes around sarcasm, link to
not-entirely-serious article containing an example where "Punctuation
saves lives", smiley at the end).  It's an attempt to say that yes,
there really is a problem here to be fixed, but doing it in a way that
attempts to get that message across in a humorous way to distract from
the necessarily negative message.

  Best Regards,
Andy


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Re: Fwd: Automatically generated changeset discussion comments by OSMCha

Clifford Snow
In reply to this post by Erwin Olario
I echo Bryan - this is a much needed feature. I started incorporating OSMCha into my review of new users in my area. That I could easily capture "good and bad" edits and post a comment to the user at the same time is nice. When I do come across a bad edit, and it doesn't happen often, I post a more complete changeset message. For example, a yesterday a new user made one bad and one good edit. The bad edit was to add a natural=water rectangle in a back yard, his I'm assuming. It was so large you could fit two or more olympic sized swimming pools in the same area. The other edit was to add a parking lot. I often even post tips when they make a good edit but the edit could use some improvement - often squaring houses.

OSMCha offers us the chance to catch problems early which is going to discourage vandalism by removing any trace of it. That way the new user can't show their friends how they added say a pokemon spawning feature next to their house.

Willie - thanks for the feature

Clifford

On Fri, Jan 12, 2018 at 6:17 AM, Erwin Olario <[hidden email]> wrote:

reposting an earlier reply, which i mistakenly sent directly just to Michael
---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Erwin Olario <[hidden email]>
Date: Fri, Jan 12, 2018 at 10:15 PM
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Automatically generated changeset discussion comments by OSMCha
To: Michael Reichert <[hidden email]>


I believe it's a good idea. At present, any OSM user (and all OsmCha users, are OSM users) can leave any comment to a changeset, whether or not the mapper asked for any.

Earlier, I filed a ticket to enhance OsmCha behavior. Instead of posting a default message, the reviewer should leave details outlining how the changeset could be improved (or why they think it's bad.)

[0]: https://github.com/mapbox/osmcha-frontend/issues/248

On Fri, Jan 12, 2018 at 10:10 PM Michael Reichert <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

OSMCha started posting comments to changesets a few days ago when a user
marks a changeset as good or bad.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/wille/diary/43101
I would like to ask the author(s) of OSMCha to disable this feature.

We expect to read all mappers incoming message (personal messages and
changeset comments). If third-party tools start to post comments to lots
of changesets automatically, this is some kind of spamming. If OSM sends
to much emails to a user, the user will probably ignore them or treat
them as spam.

I think that OSMCha should not post a comment automatically except if
the user has explicitly asked for feedback or there are quality issues
regarding the edit (mistakes, vandalism, guideline violations or
anything else which makes it necessary to talk to the user).

I post this email to this mailing list instead of filing a bug report a
Github [1] because I want to bring this problem to the wider audience
and initiate a general discussion on the acceptable usage of the
changeset comments API.

What are your thoughts and opinions on this issue?

Best regards

Michael


[1] Btw, which Github repository would be the correct one the file the
bug report at?
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=osmcha+github&t=ffsb&ia=web


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ausgenommen)
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Re: Automatically generated changeset discussion comments by OSMCha

Tordanik
In reply to this post by Andy Townsend
On 12.01.2018 15:39, Andy Townsend wrote:
> More seriously, any automatic use of OSM messages is problematical
> because it devalues the messages that we want people to actually read -
> the ones that are composed by and sent be a human, and have actual
> useful information in them

I agree. Right now, messages and comments sent via OSM channels tend to
be written by humans for a specific individual recipient, which gives
them a very good signal-to-noise ratio. I enjoy that a lot and would
like to keep things that way.

Subjectively, I also tend to find it a bit off-putting when canned
messages try to imitate human writing. Compared to obviously automated
messages ("your changeset was reviewed by user X"), they can feel
somewhat dishonest. I accept that people will feel differently about
this, though.

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Re: Automatically generated changeset discussion comments by OSMCha

Michael Reichert-3
Hi,

Am 2018-01-12 um 17:01 schrieb Tobias Knerr:

> On 12.01.2018 15:39, Andy Townsend wrote:
>> More seriously, any automatic use of OSM messages is problematical
>> because it devalues the messages that we want people to actually read -
>> the ones that are composed by and sent be a human, and have actual
>> useful information in them
>
> I agree. Right now, messages and comments sent via OSM channels tend to
> be written by humans for a specific individual recipient, which gives
> them a very good signal-to-noise ratio. I enjoy that a lot and would
> like to keep things that way.
We could introduce a special kind of changeset discussion comment which
does trigger email notification. Any comment which is automatically
generated should be such a "silent comment".

Best regards

Michael


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Re: Automatically generated changeset discussion comments by OSMCha

Stefan Keller
In reply to this post by Tordanik
2018-01-12 17:01 GMT+01:00 Tobias Knerr <[hidden email]>:
> I agree. Right now, messages and comments sent via OSM channels tend to
> be written by humans for a specific individual recipient, which gives
> them a very good signal-to-noise ratio.

Interesting discussion to me because I'm working on a tool that
enhances onosm.org and generates OSM notes and messages to inbox when
an OSM object has been modified. I think it should be allowed to send
auto-generated messages to OSM channels as long as it's fair use or if
one can opt-out (in case of "personal" comments).

> Subjectively, I also tend to find it a bit off-putting when canned
> messages try to imitate human writing. Compared to obviously automated

I would even go further by refering to policies about automated reply
mails and/or chat bots. I can't find an authoritative source but I
think there's at least a netiquette saying that communications to
humans generated from machines should start by declaring it's a
message from a machine.

In this case my reaction also was that "I reviewed..." is misleading.
I would propose s'thing like the following:
...
Hello!
This is a comment generated by #OSMCha:
#REVIEWED_GOOD
Thank you for your contributions to OpenStreetMap.
...

If the reviewer can edit the text before it's being send by OSMCha
(under the name of the user), then it's a kind of mixed "authorship"
and yet another case.

:Stefan

[0]: https://github.com/mapbox/osmcha-frontend/issues/248


2018-01-12 17:01 GMT+01:00 Tobias Knerr <[hidden email]>:

> On 12.01.2018 15:39, Andy Townsend wrote:
>> More seriously, any automatic use of OSM messages is problematical
>> because it devalues the messages that we want people to actually read -
>> the ones that are composed by and sent be a human, and have actual
>> useful information in them
>
> I agree. Right now, messages and comments sent via OSM channels tend to
> be written by humans for a specific individual recipient, which gives
> them a very good signal-to-noise ratio. I enjoy that a lot and would
> like to keep things that way.
>
> Subjectively, I also tend to find it a bit off-putting when canned
> messages try to imitate human writing. Compared to obviously automated
> messages ("your changeset was reviewed by user X"), they can feel
> somewhat dishonest. I accept that people will feel differently about
> this, though.
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

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Re: Automatically generated changeset discussion comments by OSMCha

Clifford Snow


On Fri, Jan 12, 2018 at 9:59 AM, Stefan Keller <[hidden email]> wrote:
I would even go further by refering to policies about automated reply
mails and/or chat bots. I can't find an authoritative source but I
think there's at least a netiquette saying that communications to
humans generated from machines should start by declaring it's a
message from a machine.

In this case my reaction also was that "I reviewed..." is misleading.
I would propose s'thing like the following:
...
Hello!
This is a comment generated by #OSMCha:
#REVIEWED_GOOD
Thank you for your contributions to OpenStreetMap.

Another option would be to allow each of us to create our own "canned" response.  

A quick count shows something like 300,000+ edits by new mappers in 2017. That would also include import accounts created in 2017 which inflates the number. But it's still a large number. Ideally we would review more edits by new mappers to help them get up to speed and offer words of encouragement. Having tools like OSMCha really help. I've started employing OSMCha late last year and find it helpful, especially being able to see what was deleted.

Stefan - Thank you for offering a suggestion on how OSMCha can be improved. 

Best,
Clifford

--
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OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch

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Re: Automatically generated changeset discussion comments by OSMCha

joost
I don't think "a comment generated by" is the correct description. It is a comment generated -through- OSMcha. A human decided the changeset was good, that's nice to know for mappers. I guess it would be better if the reviewer can decide not to send this message, or have the option to chose which kind of message.

It's a little silly to get fifty of these messages if they all get reviewed. But there is a second use case to these messages: it is the only way that another changeset reviewer using another tool can know that someone already looked at it. I would propose:

- a reviewer in OSMcha can adapt the message to his own personal message or an ad hoc message
- the "personal sounding text" is sent at most once to every single mapper. Every following message is as short and to the point as Stefan's proposal
- a reviewer can choose to not send a message if they feel like they're spamming

If we agree it's a problem that users get a message everytime someone reviews one of their changesets, then maybe we need a separate database for reviewing status. OSMcha has that, but we might integrate the reviewing status into OSM.org? That would of course also imply that third party tools can also write to the OSMcha database. So maybe a centralized solution would be better. I think reviewing is impartant enough to consider this.

2018-01-12 22:49 GMT+01:00 Clifford Snow <[hidden email]>:


On Fri, Jan 12, 2018 at 9:59 AM, Stefan Keller <[hidden email]> wrote:
I would even go further by refering to policies about automated reply
mails and/or chat bots. I can't find an authoritative source but I
think there's at least a netiquette saying that communications to
humans generated from machines should start by declaring it's a
message from a machine.

In this case my reaction also was that "I reviewed..." is misleading.
I would propose s'thing like the following:
...
Hello!
This is a comment generated by #OSMCha:
#REVIEWED_GOOD
Thank you for your contributions to OpenStreetMap.

Another option would be to allow each of us to create our own "canned" response.  

A quick count shows something like 300,000+ edits by new mappers in 2017. That would also include import accounts created in 2017 which inflates the number. But it's still a large number. Ideally we would review more edits by new mappers to help them get up to speed and offer words of encouragement. Having tools like OSMCha really help. I've started employing OSMCha late last year and find it helpful, especially being able to see what was deleted.

Stefan - Thank you for offering a suggestion on how OSMCha can be improved. 

Best,
Clifford

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OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch

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Joost Schouppe

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Re: Automatically generated changeset discussion comments by OSMCha

Tordanik
On 13.01.2018 11:02, joost schouppe wrote:
> - a reviewer in OSMcha can adapt the message to his own personal message
> or an ad hoc message
[...]
> - a reviewer can choose to not send a message if they feel like they're
> spamming

Those would be steps in the right direction, but I wonder why it's
necessary to even pre-fill a default message at all? I'd suggest to
leave it blank and have people compose their own messages.

Now ideally, those would be tailored to each changeset and mention
something that demonstrates you actually looked at the new user's work
(and in a perfect world, demonstrates local knowledge to show that
you're from the area).

But even if the reviewer writes a message only once and re-uses it for
subsequent changesets (which OSMCha could even make easier by
remembering your previous messages), that message will still be
infinitely better than the current default, as it's likely to be in the
local language, follow local communication styles, and have an
individual touch from the human mapper who wrote it.

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Re: Automatically generated changeset discussion comments by OSMCha

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Michael Reichert-3


sent from a phone

> On 12. Jan 2018, at 15:25, Michael Reichert <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Ideally, this comment should be localized. If a user uses the German
> locale of his editor, he should the receive the comment in German if the
> reviewer also uses a German locale (it is then very likely that they
> would use German for their normal conversation).


it depends on the context. From time to time I encounter changesets I want to comment on from (supposed) Germans which have edited around here (Italy). I’m usually writing the first comment in English, because I want my fellow Italian mappers to be able to follow.( Obviously, if the mapper doesn’t speak English, I’ll also communicate in German with them on the follow up). People mapping “abroad” is not a rare phenomenon in OSM.


Cheers,
Martin
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Re: Automatically generated changeset discussion comments by OSMCha

Mike N.
In reply to this post by joost
On 1/13/2018 5:02 AM, joost schouppe wrote:
>
> If we agree it's a problem that users get a message everytime someone
> reviews one of their changesets, then maybe we need a separate database
> for reviewing status. OSMcha has that, but we might integrate the
> reviewing status into OSM.org

There have been mentions of having a reviewed status on changesets.
This could be shown as summary feedback in editors as "toast-style"
status balloons the way waiting OSM messages is shown.   An addition to
the OSM.org changeset would be the review status (good, bad, mixed) and
who reviewed.  That would be a natural way to use OSMcha, with optional
messages only when it would be helpful.    Otherwise a flurry of
messages for edits is unexpected, as in

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/55390192

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Re: Automatically generated changeset discussion comments by OSMCha

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Andy Townsend


sent from a phone

> On 12. Jan 2018, at 16:41, Andy Townsend <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Bryan, this is "being nice" in English.


Andy, this might be nice for British natives, but it certainly bears a high risk of being perceived as offending by non-native speakers, even if it was in quotation marks and with a smiley at the end. (I’m “European” as well).

cheers,
Martin
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