Baby-sitting

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Baby-sitting

cascafico
How can I tag an hotel which features baby-sitting?


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Re: Baby-sitting

Sergio Manzi
On 2019-03-07 23:31, Cascafico Giovanni wrote:
> How can I tag an hotel which features baby-sitting?

I think it should be something in the lines of "service:babysitting=yes" unless we already have something different in use...

Cheers!

Sergio



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Re: Baby-sitting

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by cascafico


sent from a phone

> On 7. Mar 2019, at 23:31, Cascafico Giovanni <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> How can I tag an hotel which features baby-sitting?


what does babysitting mean? Ages 0-3?

Cheers, Martin

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Re: Baby-sitting

Sergio Manzi

On 2019-03-08 17:36, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

>
> sent from a phone
>
>> On 7. Mar 2019, at 23:31, Cascafico Giovanni <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> How can I tag an hotel which features baby-sitting?
>
> what does babysitting mean? Ages 0-3?
>
> Cheers, Martin
>
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/babysitting

Ciao,

Sergio



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Re: Baby-sitting

Philip Barnes
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
It can be a child of any age that is too young to be left alone. The legal age will vary by country or state but entirely possible a 14 year old could be babysat. Don't take the word baby too literally, technically its short term adhoc childcare whilst the parents go out for an evening.

Phil (trigpoint)

On 8 March 2019 16:36:21 GMT, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:


sent from a phone

On 7. Mar 2019, at 23:31, Cascafico Giovanni <[hidden email]> wrote:

How can I tag an hotel which features baby-sitting?


what does babysitting mean? Ages 0-3?

Cheers, Martin
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Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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Re: Baby-sitting

dieterdreist


Am Fr., 8. März 2019 um 20:37 Uhr schrieb Philip Barnes <[hidden email]>:
It can be a child of any age that is too young to be left alone. The legal age will vary by country or state but entirely possible a 14 year old could be babysat. Don't take the word baby too literally, technically its short term adhoc childcare whilst the parents go out for an evening.


On the other hand, actual babies require different kind of attention and training, most hotels won't sit actual "babies", while some others might be specialized.

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: Baby-sitting

Jmapb
In reply to this post by Sergio Manzi
On 3/7/2019 6:33 PM, Sergio Manzi wrote:
> On 2019-03-07 23:31, Cascafico Giovanni wrote:
>> How can I tag an hotel which features baby-sitting?
> I think it should be something in the lines of "service:babysitting=yes" unless we already have something different in use...

I'd be inclined towards childcare=yes, as it reuses the amenity=childcare value as a key. Not a lot of support in taginfo for childcare as a key (57 hits) but better than service:childcare, service:babysitting, or just babysitting (all 0 hits).

Jason


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Re: Baby-sitting

Graeme Fitzpatrick

On Sat, 9 Mar 2019 at 05:56, Jmapb <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'd be inclined towards childcare=yes,

Yes, that seems a better option than baby_sitting

Define ages as well?

age=0-14
min_age=
max_age=

Thanks

Graeme

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Re: Baby-sitting

cascafico
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
Well, hotels dataset I'm manually importing has a boolean baby-sitting field (as for "pets" in other ML thread).
I think that a generic info is better than no info, particularly if hotel features childcare=yes and whatever contact tag.


Il ven 8 mar 2019, 20:45 Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> ha scritto:


Am Fr., 8. März 2019 um 20:37 Uhr schrieb Philip Barnes <[hidden email]>:
It can be a child of any age that is too young to be left alone. The legal age will vary by country or state but entirely possible a 14 year old could be babysat. Don't take the word baby too literally, technically its short term adhoc childcare whilst the parents go out for an evening.


On the other hand, actual babies require different kind of attention and training, most hotels won't sit actual "babies", while some others might be specialized.

Cheers,
Martin
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Hotel dataset import? / Re: Baby-sitting

Tom Pfeifer
On 09.03.2019 10:10, Cascafico Giovanni wrote:
> Well, hotels dataset I'm manually importing has a boolean baby-sitting field (as for "pets" in other
> ML thread).
> I think that a generic info is better than no info, particularly if hotel features childcare=yes and
> whatever contact tag.

Giovanni,

can you please let us know, which hotels dataset you are importing,
under what license this dataset is published,
and where you discussed the import with the OSM community?

Please not that an import is an import even if you do just one hotel per day.

tom

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Re: Hotel dataset import? / Re: Baby-sitting

cascafico
In short (I'm on phone)...
Please find here [1] umap used for manual conflation. For source data and license, follow footer info link.

AFAIK <100 nodes don't fall in import category.

Il sab 9 mar 2019, 11:46 Tom Pfeifer <[hidden email]> ha scritto:
On 09.03.2019 10:10, Cascafico Giovanni wrote:
> Well, hotels dataset I'm manually importing has a boolean baby-sitting field (as for "pets" in other
> ML thread).
> I think that a generic info is better than no info, particularly if hotel features childcare=yes and
> whatever contact tag.

Giovanni,

can you please let us know, which hotels dataset you are importing,
under what license this dataset is published,
and where you discussed the import with the OSM community?

Please not that an import is an import even if you do just one hotel per day.

tom

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Re: Hotel dataset import? / Re: Baby-sitting

cascafico

Il sab 9 mar 2019, 12:18 Cascafico Giovanni <[hidden email]> ha scritto:
In short (I'm on phone)...
Please find here [1] umap used for manual conflation. For source data and license, follow footer info link.

AFAIK <100 nodes don't fall in import category.

Il sab 9 mar 2019, 11:46 Tom Pfeifer <[hidden email]> ha scritto:
On 09.03.2019 10:10, Cascafico Giovanni wrote:
> Well, hotels dataset I'm manually importing has a boolean baby-sitting field (as for "pets" in other
> ML thread).
> I think that a generic info is better than no info, particularly if hotel features childcare=yes and
> whatever contact tag.

Giovanni,

can you please let us know, which hotels dataset you are importing,
under what license this dataset is published,
and where you discussed the import with the OSM community?

Please not that an import is an import even if you do just one hotel per day.

tom

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Re: Hotel dataset import? / Re: Baby-sitting

voschix



AFAIK <100 nodes don't fall in import category.
 
I see 586 blue elements on the umap, or am I missing something?

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Re: Hotel dataset import? / Re: Baby-sitting

Tom Pfeifer
In reply to this post by cascafico
Giovanni,

I have severe problems with your process. First, yes it is an import. You called it an import
yourself ("manually importing") here, and on the Italien list where you first asked about the
tagging [2]. Where did you see a "100 nodes" limit documented? You are copying from one database
into another, and if you do just one node a day, it is a slow import.

Imports require the Import Guidelines to be followed [4]. I cannot see any discussion with the
community. I cannot see any check of license compatibility. There is no documentation. There is no
entry in the import catalogue.

You were criticized for stretching the opening_hours syntax to describe seasonal operations ("Jan 01
- Dec 31"), but did not respond nor adjust your tagging.[3]

The link on your Umap site leads to [5], which is licensed under the Italian Open Data License,
linked here [6]. It requires attribution, machine-translated: "On condition of: indicate the source
of the Information and the name of the Licensor, including, if possible, a copy of this license or a
link (link) to it."

You have not attributed correctly. You changesets, e.g. [7], give in the CS comment "RAFVG source",
which is an incomprehensible acronym if you don't know the context. The CS has no source tag at all
(although the editor you use has a mechanism for it), thus you do not name the source correctly, you
do not name the Licensor, and you do not include a link although possible. You have also not checked
if the attribution on the changeset only would be sufficient.

Your import does not include any check, how current or old the data in the imported set are. In the
hotel business, things can change very fast. Hotels open and close, and change ownership and
operations.

Your import focuses on soft business policies, such as allowing pets or supervising kids. Such
policies can change even more rapidly, and are better shown in separate datasets and not OSM itself.

You use and advertise in your umap the use of Level0 as an editor. This tool is excellent for
quickly fixing a tag, but I would find it error-prone to upload mass changes without a validation step.

Thus I conclude: Visualising the dataset in your Umap approach [1] is an excellent idea, unreviewed
copying of the data into OSM is not.

[2] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-it/2019-February/065837.html
[3] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-it/2019-February/065839.html
[4] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Guidelines
[5]
https://www.dati.friuliveneziagiulia.it/Istruzione-cultura-e-sport/Strutture-Alberghiere-e-RTA/fiiw-i5su
[6] https://www.dati.gov.it/content/italian-open-data-license-v20
[7] https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2088900846/history

Tom

On 09.03.2019 12:19, Cascafico Giovanni wrote:

> [1] http://umap.openstreetmap.fr/it/map/turismo-fvg_295722
>
> Il sab 9 mar 2019, 12:18 Cascafico Giovanni <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> ha
> scritto:
>
>     In short (I'm on phone)...
>     Please find here [1] umap used for manual conflation. For source data and license, follow footer
>     info link.
>
>     AFAIK <100 nodes don't fall in import category.
>
>     Il sab 9 mar 2019, 11:46 Tom Pfeifer <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> ha
>     scritto:
>
>         On 09.03.2019 10:10, Cascafico Giovanni wrote:
>          > Well, hotels dataset I'm manually importing has a boolean baby-sitting field (as for
>         "pets" in other
>          > ML thread).
>          > I think that a generic info is better than no info, particularly if hotel features
>         childcare=yes and
>          > whatever contact tag.
>
>         Giovanni,
>
>         can you please let us know, which hotels dataset you are importing,
>         under what license this dataset is published,
>         and where you discussed the import with the OSM community?
>
>         Please not that an import is an import even if you do just one hotel per day.
>
>         tom

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Re: Hotel dataset import? / Re: Baby-sitting

cascafico
Il giorno sab 9 mar 2019 alle ore 22:15 Tom Pfeifer <[hidden email]> ha scritto:

> I have severe problems with your process. First, yes it is an import. You called it an import
> yourself ("manually importing") here, and on the Italien list where you first asked about the
> tagging.
> Where did you see a "100 nodes" limit documented? You are copying from one database
> into another, and if you do just one node a day, it is a slow import.

As stated in the main wiki page [1], importing is "(also known as Bulk Importing)". Maybe I misunderstood this wider acceptation when I started a manual insertion of POIs, limiting by myself the number not to trigger it as an import.

If anybody in this ML considers that this activity is different from getting informations from hotel websites and putting them in OSM, I will immediately abort the insertions.

> You were criticized for stretching the opening_hours syntax to describe seasonal operations ("Jan 01
> - Dec 31"), but did not respond nor adjust your tagging.

Sorry for that. Is it wrong? I did test it with JOSM OpeningHoursEditor [2] plugin. If anybopdy in this ML prefers 24/7 I will change the values. I used "Jan 01 - Dec 31" just to set a value consistent to overall hotel dataset opening periods.

> Your import focuses on soft business policies, such as allowing pets or supervising kids. Such
> policies can change even more rapidly, and are better shown in separate datasets and not OSM itself.

This consideration raises a huge question about italian fuel stations, since operators, brands and names come and go.
In case of a future regular import, I'll remove pets and childcare, inserting just phisical elements like gymn, garage, air-conditioning, welness etc.

> Your import does not include any check, how current or old the data in the imported set are. In the
> hotel business, things can change very fast. Hotels open and close, and change ownership and
> operations.>

In umap, dataset layer you can read  RAFVG opendata, ottobre [october] 2017. Anyway terms like "very fast" are subjective: some time ago I aborted a draft for Bed& Breakfast import bacause surveys detected some business shut downs. So who's in charge of the "very" fast evaluations? If we demand that every entry in possible source dataaset is right what do you think will be the situation in OSM today?

> The link on your Umap site leads to [5], which is licensed under the Italian Open Data License,
> linked here [6]. It requires attribution, machine-translated: "On condition of: indicate the source
> of the Information and the name of the Licensor, including, if possible, a copy of this license or a
> link (link) to it."
> You have not attributed correctly. You changesets, e.g. [7], give in the CS comment "RAFVG source",
> which is an incomprehensible acronym if you don't know the context. The CS has no source tag at all
> (although the editor you use has a mechanism for it),

You are right, but I can't find that mechanism in Level0

>thus you do not name the source correctly, you
> do not name the Licensor, and you do not include a link although possible. You have also not checked
> if the attribution on the changeset only would be sufficient.> You use and advertise in your umap the use of Level0 as an editor. This tool is excellent for
> quickly fixing a tag, but I would find it error-prone to upload mass changes without a validation step.
> Thus I conclude: Visualising the dataset in your Umap approach [1] is an excellent idea, unreviewed
> copying of the data into OSM is not.

Anyway, If you consider the activity is definitely an import, I'll revert involved changesets,  taking in account  the above disapproval points.





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Re: Hotel dataset import? / Re: Baby-sitting

marc marc
Le 11.03.19 à 12:20, Cascafico Giovanni a écrit :
> limiting by myself the number not to trigger it as an import.
>
> If anybody in this ML considers that this activity is different from
> getting informations from hotel websites and putting them in OSM, I will
> immediately abort the insertions.

splitting a import into several changeset to "be under the radar" is
still an import and is indeed not the same as getting info from the poi
it-self
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Re: Hotel dataset import? / Re: Baby-sitting

Mateusz Konieczny-3
In reply to this post by cascafico



Mar 11, 2019, 12:20 PM by [hidden email]:
Il giorno sab 9 mar 2019 alle ore 22:15 Tom Pfeifer <[hidden email]> ha scritto:

> I have severe problems with your process. First, yes it is an import. You called it an import
> yourself ("manually importing") here, and on the Italien list where you first asked about the
> tagging.
> Where did you see a "100 nodes" limit documented? You are copying from one database
> into another, and if you do just one node a day, it is a slow import.

As stated in the main wiki page [1], importing is "(also known as Bulk Importing)".
Fixed in https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Import&diff=1820348&oldid=1551233


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Re: Hotel dataset import? / Re: Baby-sitting

cascafico
In reply to this post by cascafico
Il giorno lun 11 mar 2019 alle ore 12:20 Cascafico Giovanni <[hidden email]> ha scritto:
> You were criticized for stretching the opening_hours syntax to describe seasonal operations ("Jan 01
> - Dec 31"), but did not respond nor adjust your tagging.

Sorry for that. Is it wrong? I did test it with JOSM OpeningHoursEditor [2] plugin. If anybopdy in this ML prefers 24/7 I will change the values. I used "Jan 01 - Dec 31" just to set a value consistent to overall hotel dataset opening periods.

 
> Your import focuses on soft business policies, such as allowing pets or supervising kids. Such
> policies can change even more rapidly, and are better shown in separate datasets and not OSM itself.

This consideration raises a huge question about italian fuel stations, since operators, brands and names come and go.
In case of a future regular import, I'll remove pets and childcare, inserting just phisical elements like gymn, garage, air-conditioning, welness etc.

I'm preparing in import wiki. Any thought about the above points?

 

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Re: Hotel dataset import? / Re: Baby-sitting

cascafico
In reply to this post by Mateusz Konieczny-3
Il giorno lun 11 mar 2019 alle ore 14:11 Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> ha scritto:
> Fixed in https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Import&diff=1820348&oldid=1551233


I took a 600+ dataset, geocoded them, manually conflate 53 of them, put source references on umap, put source institution name on changeset, ask for some tags clarification (yet didn't receive an agreed feedback).
Am I missing something? 

The only (sequential) results of this discussion are:

- I declare <100 nodes but Volker noticed source dataset has 600+, but then:
- I'm asked where the <100 was mentioned (cannot remember), conclusion: I'm malicious: it's an import!
- since there is one (1) ML unaswered doubt if "01 Jan - 31 Dec" should be replaced by 24/7: import is anyway bad
- pets and childcare information are "volatile" (payment methods aren't? and yet tag exists): import is anyway bad
- "bulk" word removed from main import wiki [1]: hence it's obviously an import

The lattest is great and leads to grotesque consequences: when a colleague hands me 12 guidepost locations to geocode, I must message planet import ML, local ML, write an import page and ask my fellow a consent form with certified signature. Is this what we aim? 
I think setting such a binding requirements on small size "imports" is putting a gravestone on many potential small, local sources.

Please, forgive my sarcasm, but I'm really discouraged. I published the 53 changeset id's [2]. Feel free to revert.
If anybody wants to help me, please feed back on the import doc I wrote on-the-fly [3]


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Re: Hotel dataset import? / Re: Baby-sitting

Tom Pfeifer
On 13.03.2019 10:50, Cascafico Giovanni wrote:

> The lattest is great and leads to grotesque consequences: when a colleague hands me 12 guidepost
> locations to geocode, I must message planet import ML, local ML, write an import page and ask my
> fellow a consent form with certified signature. Is this what we aim?
> I think setting such a binding requirements on small size "imports" is putting a gravestone on many
> potential small, local sources.

I think you misunderstand. OSM is based on locally sourced, handcrafted data. That creates the high
quality.

Import means data are copied from another database into OSM. That means, somebody else collected the
data. This collector has made his own mistakes. All databases contain errors, or outdated items,
even if they are labelled official, governmental etc.

IIRC the dataset you are using is several years old, last updated 2017. The items in your Umap do
not say when the database entry was last checked.

Thus when copying these data into OSM, they appear as freshly updated, March 2019, although the
information is much older and the hotel might have closed or changed ownership/pet policies/wifi in
2018. In particular in a "stealth" import, one node at a time, I would assume the OSM data to be
individually checked and current.

Thus your task is to discuss with the Italian community if your import, i.e. copying the other data,
improves or decreases the OSM data quality. The changeset size is less important, though I would
prefer an community-approved import to be traceable in not too many changesets.

Your colleagues data of 12 guideposts are fine if they are freshly collected from the ground.

Hope that helps to understand why we are careful with imports.

tom

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