Bad coastline edits in Sweden

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Bad coastline edits in Sweden

General Discussion mailing list
Hi list! I'm doing a lot coastline fixings all over the world. Normally
only with few pain. But since a few weeks the user Aki_Suokas is doing
very bad coastline edits in the area of Sweden. I've written him several
time via changeset discussion but no reaction. At least he has stopped
in an other area where I was warning him with notifying OSM foundation.
Now he was editing again without any benefit but doing a lot mistakes.
It seems that he is not willing to learn and just do some useless
things. And since he is using the (bad) ID editor it is also nearly
impossible to revert the changesets which created the mess. As of today
you can see the errors here:
http://tools.geofabrik.de/osmi/?view=coastline&lon=20.93588&lat=59.91265&zoom=13&overlays=coastline,coastline_error_lines,line_not_a_ring,line_overlap,line_invalid,line_direction,questionable,coastline_error_points,unconnected,intersections,not_a_ring,double_node,tagged_node
As my own coastline checker is doing global checks without creating a
map it is hard for me to distinguish the errors in Sweden with other
errors worldwide. As of this I will stop fixing coastline errors now for
a while until this special situation is fixed. I'm asking for help here
how to handle the situation. Maybe the notification of OSM foundation is
ok, maybe not... Andre


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Re: Bad coastline edits in Sweden

Jochen123
Hi!

can you point us to some of the changesets where you left comments?

Jochen

On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 10:54:53AM +0100, Andre Hinrichs via talk wrote:

> Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 10:54:53 +0100
> From: Andre Hinrichs via talk <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [OSM-talk] Bad coastline edits in Sweden
>
> Hi list! I'm doing a lot coastline fixings all over the world. Normally
> only with few pain. But since a few weeks the user Aki_Suokas is doing
> very bad coastline edits in the area of Sweden. I've written him several
> time via changeset discussion but no reaction. At least he has stopped
> in an other area where I was warning him with notifying OSM foundation.
> Now he was editing again without any benefit but doing a lot mistakes.
> It seems that he is not willing to learn and just do some useless
> things. And since he is using the (bad) ID editor it is also nearly
> impossible to revert the changesets which created the mess. As of today
> you can see the errors here:
> http://tools.geofabrik.de/osmi/?view=coastline&lon=20.93588&lat=59.91265&zoom=13&overlays=coastline,coastline_error_lines,line_not_a_ring,line_overlap,line_invalid,line_direction,questionable,coastline_error_points,unconnected,intersections,not_a_ring,double_node,tagged_node
> As my own coastline checker is doing global checks without creating a
> map it is hard for me to distinguish the errors in Sweden with other
> errors worldwide. As of this I will stop fixing coastline errors now for
> a while until this special situation is fixed. I'm asking for help here
> how to handle the situation. Maybe the notification of OSM foundation is
> ok, maybe not... Andre
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

--
Jochen Topf  [hidden email]  https://www.jochentopf.com/  +49-351-31778688

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Re: Bad coastline edits in Sweden

General Discussion mailing list
Hi!

Difficult to find, but here are the changesets where i left comments:

93965382
94097597
94134166

And the links to them:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/93965382
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/94097597
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/94134166

Andre


On 21.11.20 11:16, Jochen Topf wrote:

> Hi!
>
> can you point us to some of the changesets where you left comments?
>
> Jochen
>
> On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 10:54:53AM +0100, Andre Hinrichs via talk wrote:
>> Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 10:54:53 +0100
>> From: Andre Hinrichs via talk <[hidden email]>
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: [OSM-talk] Bad coastline edits in Sweden
>>
>> Hi list! I'm doing a lot coastline fixings all over the world. Normally
>> only with few pain. But since a few weeks the user Aki_Suokas is doing
>> very bad coastline edits in the area of Sweden. I've written him several
>> time via changeset discussion but no reaction. At least he has stopped
>> in an other area where I was warning him with notifying OSM foundation.
>> Now he was editing again without any benefit but doing a lot mistakes.
>> It seems that he is not willing to learn and just do some useless
>> things. And since he is using the (bad) ID editor it is also nearly
>> impossible to revert the changesets which created the mess. As of today
>> you can see the errors here:
>> http://tools.geofabrik.de/osmi/?view=coastline&lon=20.93588&lat=59.91265&zoom=13&overlays=coastline,coastline_error_lines,line_not_a_ring,line_overlap,line_invalid,line_direction,questionable,coastline_error_points,unconnected,intersections,not_a_ring,double_node,tagged_node
>> As my own coastline checker is doing global checks without creating a
>> map it is hard for me to distinguish the errors in Sweden with other
>> errors worldwide. As of this I will stop fixing coastline errors now for
>> a while until this special situation is fixed. I'm asking for help here
>> how to handle the situation. Maybe the notification of OSM foundation is
>> ok, maybe not... Andre
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk



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Re: Bad coastline edits in Sweden

Michael Reichert-3
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Hi Andre,

Am 21/11/2020 um 10.54 schrieb Andre Hinrichs via talk:
> Hi list! I'm doing a lot coastline fixings all over the world. Normally
> only with few pain. But since a few weeks the user Aki_Suokas is doing
> very bad coastline edits in the area of Sweden. I've written him several
> time via changeset discussion but no reaction.

Not reacting on changeset comments (or not following the advice given in
the comments) but continuing to edit, is a usual reason for 0-hour block
by Data Working Group. Please email [hidden email] and explain
the issue with links to changesets/objects.

Best regards

Michael


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Re: Bad coastline edits in Sweden

dieterdreist
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sent from a phone

> On 21. Nov 2020, at 10:59, Andre Hinrichs via talk <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> And since he is using the (bad) ID editor it is also nearly
> impossible to revert the changesets which created the mess.


ask him to stop using the bad iD editor and point him to the good iD editor ;-)

Cheers Martin
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Re: Bad coastline edits in Sweden

General Discussion mailing list
In reply to this post by General Discussion mailing list



Nov 21, 2020, 10:54 by [hidden email]:
Now he was editing again without any benefit but doing a lot mistakes.
It seems that he is not willing to learn and just do some useless
things. And since he is using the (bad) ID editor it is also nearly
impossible to revert the changesets which created the mess.
You can use also other editors like JOSM to revert (with reverted plugin).

And if edits are actually not including anything useful
reverts should be easy (revert latest edit, later latest not reverted one
and so on).

Edits made with iD are not revert-proof.

(node, I made 0 attempt to investigate this specific case and have
not checked whatever full revert of everything is optimal)

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Re: Bad coastline edits in Sweden

General Discussion mailing list
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Nov 21, 2020, 11:42 by [hidden email]:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/94097597

Note that you made comment "And WHY did you delete the island relation for Idö?"
in changeset that made no edits (especially deletions) to any relations.

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Re: Bad coastline edits in Sweden

Andy Townsend
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On 21/11/2020 10:42, Andre Hinrichs via talk wrote:
Hi!

Difficult to find, but here are the changesets where i left comments:

93965382
94097597
94134166

And the links to them:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/93965382
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/94097597
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/94134166

Andre



Hello,

A couple of points immediately spring to mind.  Apologies to anyone on this list who's seen me make these sort of points before, but sometimes I think it bears repeating.  I'll use your messages here as an example but to be honest what I'm about to say applies to lots of inter-mapper communication within OSM.

One is that you've left changeset comments in English, and here this editor is editing in Finland with a "fi" locale, as you can see at the changeset: https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/94134166 .  The Åland Islands (where this is) are actually Swedish speaking I believe, but the mapper has edited in other places in Finland too,  Not everyone in Finland understands English - my impression (from when I used to work there) was that many do, but plenty don't, and it often depends on the job that someone does or how old they are whether they are likely to or not.

Another is that your three messages are fairly abrupt and  by the second and third have got capitalised words in them.  Finnish as a language never uses 3 words where 1 will do, so this contributor will be used to terse communication, but you still need to communicate effectively.

Taking https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/93965382 as an example, you've said that there is a problem with coastlines (but not said exactly which OSM feature they edited it was), told them not to edit coastlines again but then asked them to fix the problem.  At the very least the advice is self-contradictory.

The other two, https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/94097597 and https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/94134166 , are probably best described as "shouting at someone in a foreign language"**, and are unlikely to have the desired effect.  Also, well-meaning changes aren't "vandalism" - they may cause significant problems that need fixing, but they're not vandalism.

What I'd suggest instead is:

  • Write a longer initial changeset comment, as if you were communicating with another human being for the first time (which of course you are).
  • Look at the context to see things like where this mapper is mapping geographically, what language they are likely to understand, and how long have they been mapping in OSM.
  • Link to things that explain the problem - here perhaps https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Coastline#Tagging_coastlines_in_OSM , one of the QA sites that show these sorts of problems and the specific ways or relations in their changeset that caused the problem.
  • Try and be consistent - if you say "you've broken X please don't edit it again" then logically you must offer to fix X yourself; alternatively you need to explain how they can fix X themselves, since they clearly don't know how to, having caused the problem in the first place.
  • Also post your comment in a language that they are likely to understand.  An online translator such as translate.google.com won't be perfect*, but at least it'll convert your message into words in a language with which they are familiar.
  • As has already been suggested, by all means do ask the DWG to deal with it if you've tried to get in contact and communication isn't occurring.

Best Regards,

Andy


* actually (having just tested it) translate.google.com does a surprising good job of detecting cases in English and choosing the correct word ending, which is how those are expressed in Finnish

** yes - I know - I'm English, and it is something that we are somewhat renowned for.


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