Best practice in Lane Editing 3

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Best practice in Lane Editing 3

Horea Meleg

Hello all,

Me and my Telenav colleagues are editing lane numbers in Detroit area. We have two cases, where any opinion would be appreciated.

Case 1

We are editing lanes and turn lanes and we came across with those 2 situations:

  1. 42.4479327, -83.0484338

   

  1. 42.2826283, -83.3683861

  

 

Which road geometry do you think is correct edited? The links are edited different even that, according to Bing aerial imagery they should be edited in the same way. Also, in these situations, each road geometry causes a different lane and turn lane tagging.

Case 2

We have this situation:

42.6515832, -83.1619915

 

According to US driving rules, are those turns allowed? Are you allowed to go on the link if you are coming from South?

 

Thank you,

Horea

 


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Re: Best practice in Lane Editing 3

Shawn K. Quinn
On 07/13/2017 02:15 AM, Horea Meleg wrote:
> *According to US driving rules, are those turns allowed? Are you allowed
> to go on the link if you are coming from South?*

Probably not; even if technically not prohibited explicitly, it would
probably be cited as reckless driving or careless driving if attempted
with any non-trivial amount of other traffic on the road and observed. I
would add a turn restriction just for the sake of routing software that
would route hapless motorists on such a turn.

--
Shawn K. Quinn <[hidden email]>
http://www.rantroulette.com
http://www.skqrecordquest.com

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Re: Best practice in Lane Editing 3

Marc Gemis
In reply to this post by Horea Meleg
(A) seems to be correct to me. No new OSM-way when there is only a solid white line.
The segment with the solid white line should get a change:lane=no|only_right|yes|yes|yes
Unfortunately no navigation software recognizes the change:lane at this moment. 
Therefore people started to use (B) so they get notified on time to make the move to the left.

Maybe Telenav could be the first nav app to implement this tag ? (hint :-)  )

regards

m

On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 9:15 AM, Horea Meleg <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello all,

Me and my Telenav colleagues are editing lane numbers in Detroit area. We have two cases, where any opinion would be appreciated.

Case 1

We are editing lanes and turn lanes and we came across with those 2 situations:

  1. 42.4479327, -83.0484338

   

  1. 42.2826283, -83.3683861

  

 

Which road geometry do you think is correct edited? The links are edited different even that, according to Bing aerial imagery they should be edited in the same way. Also, in these situations, each road geometry causes a different lane and turn lane tagging.

Case 2

We have this situation:

42.6515832, -83.1619915

 

According to US driving rules, are those turns allowed? Are you allowed to go on the link if you are coming from South?

 

Thank you,

Horea

 


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Re: Best practice in Lane Editing 3

Tod Fitch
In reply to this post by Horea Meleg
Case 1: First example is much closer to how I would tag it based on the the rule that it should not be a separate way if it is only separated by paint.

Case 2: I would not expect the two paths to be considered safe or legal where I live in the US (not in Michigan). While there is some effort at coordinating traffic laws between states, ultimately it is up to the state to define their own rules so it might vary from state to state.

On Jul 13, 2017, at 12:15 AM, Horea Meleg <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello all,

Me and my Telenav colleagues are editing lane numbers in Detroit area. We have two cases, where any opinion would be appreciated.

Case 1 

We are editing lanes and turn lanes and we came across with those 2 situations:

  1. 42.4479327, -83.0484338
<image001.jpg>    <image002.jpg>
  1. 42.2826283, -83.3683861
<image003.jpg>   <image004.jpg>

 

Which road geometry do you think is correct edited? The links are edited different even that, according to Bing aerial imagery they should be edited in the same way. Also, in these situations, each road geometry causes a different lane and turn lane tagging. 

Case 2

We have this situation:

42.6515832, -83.1619915

<image005.jpg>

 

According to US driving rules, are those turns allowed? Are you allowed to go on the link if you are coming from South?

 

Thank you,

Horea 




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Re: Best practice in Lane Editing 3

Eric Ladner-2
Just to play Devil's advocate:  B is probably more TECHNICALLY correct since a solid white line indicates "lane change discouraged, but not illegal" and you'd probably want the routing software to indicate where the turn lane starts, not 200 feet later (esp. in heavy traffic and the lane's already full of cars).  

Whether it's practical to map it like that or not is another matter.

On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 9:40 AM Tod Fitch <[hidden email]> wrote:
Case 1: First example is much closer to how I would tag it based on the the rule that it should not be a separate way if it is only separated by paint.

Case 2: I would not expect the two paths to be considered safe or legal where I live in the US (not in Michigan). While there is some effort at coordinating traffic laws between states, ultimately it is up to the state to define their own rules so it might vary from state to state.

On Jul 13, 2017, at 12:15 AM, Horea Meleg <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello all,

Me and my Telenav colleagues are editing lane numbers in Detroit area. We have two cases, where any opinion would be appreciated.

Case 1 

We are editing lanes and turn lanes and we came across with those 2 situations:

  1. 42.4479327, -83.0484338
<image001.jpg>    <image002.jpg>
  1. 42.2826283, -83.3683861
<image003.jpg>   <image004.jpg>

 

Which road geometry do you think is correct edited? The links are edited different even that, according to Bing aerial imagery they should be edited in the same way. Also, in these situations, each road geometry causes a different lane and turn lane tagging. 

Case 2

We have this situation:

42.6515832, -83.1619915

<image005.jpg>

 

According to US driving rules, are those turns allowed? Are you allowed to go on the link if you are coming from South?

 

Thank you,

Horea 

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Re: Best practice in Lane Editing 3

Tod Fitch
At least one routing app I have been using seems to use the turn:lane tagging [1] convention shown on the wiki. That allows the route guidance to let you know you should be getting into the turn lane at an appropriate time. Not sure if the change:lanes [2] tagging is being followed but it does allow for showing that crossing the solid line is not legal. Between turn:lanes and change:lanes, I don’t see the need to have a separate way that doesn’t really exist.

[2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/change

On Jul 13, 2017, at 1:14 PM, Eric Ladner <[hidden email]> wrote:

Just to play Devil's advocate:  B is probably more TECHNICALLY correct since a solid white line indicates "lane change discouraged, but not illegal" and you'd probably want the routing software to indicate where the turn lane starts, not 200 feet later (esp. in heavy traffic and the lane's already full of cars).  

Whether it's practical to map it like that or not is another matter.

On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 9:40 AM Tod Fitch <[hidden email]> wrote:
Case 1: First example is much closer to how I would tag it based on the the rule that it should not be a separate way if it is only separated by paint.

Case 2: I would not expect the two paths to be considered safe or legal where I live in the US (not in Michigan). While there is some effort at coordinating traffic laws between states, ultimately it is up to the state to define their own rules so it might vary from state to state.

On Jul 13, 2017, at 12:15 AM, Horea Meleg <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello all,

Me and my Telenav colleagues are editing lane numbers in Detroit area. We have two cases, where any opinion would be appreciated.

Case 1 

We are editing lanes and turn lanes and we came across with those 2 situations:

  1. 42.4479327, -83.0484338
<image001.jpg>    <image002.jpg>
  1. 42.2826283, -83.3683861
<image003.jpg>   <image004.jpg>

 

Which road geometry do you think is correct edited? The links are edited different even that, according to Bing aerial imagery they should be edited in the same way. Also, in these situations, each road geometry causes a different lane and turn lane tagging. 

Case 2

We have this situation:

42.6515832, -83.1619915

<image005.jpg>

 

According to US driving rules, are those turns allowed? Are you allowed to go on the link if you are coming from South?

 

Thank you,

Horea 



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Re: Best practice in Lane Editing 3

Eric Ladner-2
yeah, I agree..  just prodding thought.

On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 3:21 PM Tod Fitch <[hidden email]> wrote:
At least one routing app I have been using seems to use the turn:lane tagging [1] convention shown on the wiki. That allows the route guidance to let you know you should be getting into the turn lane at an appropriate time. Not sure if the change:lanes [2] tagging is being followed but it does allow for showing that crossing the solid line is not legal. Between turn:lanes and change:lanes, I don’t see the need to have a separate way that doesn’t really exist.



On Jul 13, 2017, at 1:14 PM, Eric Ladner <[hidden email]> wrote:

Just to play Devil's advocate:  B is probably more TECHNICALLY correct since a solid white line indicates "lane change discouraged, but not illegal" and you'd probably want the routing software to indicate where the turn lane starts, not 200 feet later (esp. in heavy traffic and the lane's already full of cars).  

Whether it's practical to map it like that or not is another matter.

On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 9:40 AM Tod Fitch <[hidden email]> wrote:
Case 1: First example is much closer to how I would tag it based on the the rule that it should not be a separate way if it is only separated by paint.

Case 2: I would not expect the two paths to be considered safe or legal where I live in the US (not in Michigan). While there is some effort at coordinating traffic laws between states, ultimately it is up to the state to define their own rules so it might vary from state to state.

On Jul 13, 2017, at 12:15 AM, Horea Meleg <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello all,

Me and my Telenav colleagues are editing lane numbers in Detroit area. We have two cases, where any opinion would be appreciated.

Case 1 

We are editing lanes and turn lanes and we came across with those 2 situations:

  1. 42.4479327, -83.0484338
<image001.jpg>    <image002.jpg>
  1. 42.2826283, -83.3683861
<image003.jpg>   <image004.jpg>

 

Which road geometry do you think is correct edited? The links are edited different even that, according to Bing aerial imagery they should be edited in the same way. Also, in these situations, each road geometry causes a different lane and turn lane tagging. 

Case 2

We have this situation:

42.6515832, -83.1619915

<image005.jpg>

 

According to US driving rules, are those turns allowed? Are you allowed to go on the link if you are coming from South?

 

Thank you,

Horea 



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Re: Best practice in Lane Editing 3

Marc Gemis
In reply to this post by Eric Ladner-2
On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 10:14 PM, Eric Ladner <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Just to play Devil's advocate:  B is probably more TECHNICALLY correct since
> a solid white line indicates "lane change discouraged, but not illegal" and
> you'd probably want the routing software to indicate where the turn lane
> starts, not 200 feet later (esp. in heavy traffic and the lane's already
> full of cars).

In Belgium (and other European countries), it is illegal to cross a
solid white line under normal circumstances.

An OSM way represents a separate street, not a lane. When you start
representing lanes as ways, you break data consumers that count ways,
or that really need to know whether the physical divider is. Emergency
vehicles are not interested in solid white lines, but are interested
in physical dividers that they cannot cross.

For all those reasons, I will not map a separate way for a lane
separated by a solid line. I do hope that the  but routing apps should
start implementing change:lane, which is the proper way to map it
IMHO.

regards

m

(*) in some special case

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Re: Best practice in Lane Editing 3

Jack Burke-2
According to one Georgia lawyer's website[1] as well as the Indiana driver's handbook[2], it is illegal to cross a solid white line between lanes.  Having said that, I would map Case 1 as shown in A, because I don't think any police officer is going to bother writing a ticket if someone does so when entering a turn lane, as well as for the reasons Marc outlined.  I come across turn lanes mapped as separate ways all the time, especially when the lane has a median separation at the point of the turn.  I change them so that the _link road separates from the main road just before where the median is.  I will note that in some construction zones, particularly where the lanes have been shifted temporarily, they do put down solid white lines between lanes sometimes, specifically because they don't want vehicles changing lanes in that section of road.

A *double* solid white line, however, would almost certainly draw police attention if you were to cross it, so those probably should be mapped separately.

A turn lane that has a painted median, however, I do map as a separate _link because it is technically illegal to drive on the median, and routing software needs to be able to alert drivers before the turn lane separates from the main road.

Regarding case 2, I'm reasonably sure that it would be illegal for someone coming from the south to make those turns.  I seem to recall hearing that there is a legal minimum distance you're supposed to drive before changing lanes, although I can't find it in the Georgia driver's manual.  I periodically run into some local police officers who can probably answer that for me, at least as the law is in Georgia.  I think every state does have a minimum legal distance, which varies from state to state, that you're supposed to signal your turn before making it, and there is simply no way a driver coming from the south would be able to meet that requirement.  In the picture provided, I would actually "cheat" the link road a little so that it connects to the main road just before where the side road comes in.  It looks like a difference of only a few feet in the picture, so I don't think that's a critical enough distance where cheating the connection point is an issue.  (If it were more than just a few feet, then no, I wouldn't cheat the connection point.)

--jack




On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 4:02 PM, Marc Gemis <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 10:14 PM, Eric Ladner <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Just to play Devil's advocate:  B is probably more TECHNICALLY correct since
> a solid white line indicates "lane change discouraged, but not illegal" and
> you'd probably want the routing software to indicate where the turn lane
> starts, not 200 feet later (esp. in heavy traffic and the lane's already
> full of cars).

In Belgium (and other European countries), it is illegal to cross a
solid white line under normal circumstances.

An OSM way represents a separate street, not a lane. When you start
representing lanes as ways, you break data consumers that count ways,
or that really need to know whether the physical divider is. Emergency
vehicles are not interested in solid white lines, but are interested
in physical dividers that they cannot cross.

For all those reasons, I will not map a separate way for a lane
separated by a solid line. I do hope that the  but routing apps should
start implementing change:lane, which is the proper way to map it
IMHO.

regards

m

(*) in some special case

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Re: Best practice in Lane Editing 3

Paul Johnson-3
In reply to this post by Horea Meleg


On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 2:15 AM, Horea Meleg <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello all,

Me and my Telenav colleagues are editing lane numbers in Detroit area. We have two cases, where any opinion would be appreciated.

Case 1

We are editing lanes and turn lanes and we came across with those 2 situations:


I'd consider "a" to be better mapped, though could use improvement, connecting it to the ways to the north and south and specifying turn restrictions (since, theoretically, an emergency vehicle, could physically make it).
 

Which road geometry do you think is correct edited? The links are edited different even that, according to Bing aerial imagery they should be edited in the same way. Also, in these situations, each road geometry causes a different lane and turn lane tagging.

Case 2

We have this situation:

42.6515832, -83.1619915

I wouldn't consider the hooks to be part of the same ways on the sides, but their own links.  Might have to research local rules to find out what turn restrictions would be applicable. 

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