Can OSM become a geospacial database?

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Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Eugene Podshivalov
This email is a forward message of this forum topic

I guess this topic has been raised may times already but let me add to it.
Right now OSM is a collection of dots and lines with some generic tags for rendering them on a map. They do compile into nice maps but does it really work when it comes to searching for objects of real life categories? Let's look into some examples.
* place=city/town/village/hamlet/isolated_dwelling stand for settlements of some pupulation ranges. But each country has its own categorization of settlements which may absolutely differ from the suggested gradation.
* waterway=river/stream are used for natural relatively large or small waterways. But the notion of river may differ from country to country and they may have a much wider range of categories then just these two ones.
* amenity=school/university/college have some generic notion of secondary, higher and further edicution institutions. But again each country has it's own categorization of educational institutions and in some cases it even contradicts the suggested tag names, e.g. in Russia they have colleges as something intermediate between high school and university.

To wrap it up it is hard to impossible to get objects of some real live category from OSM database in order for example to hight light them on a map or to list them in search results.

There are two workarounds used right now. The first one is to bind some new tags to local categories e.g. school=high_school, school=college. This approach is very contradictary because it is recognized only locally and may conflict with notations in other countries.
The second one is to put category name into "name" tag, e.g. "Liberty avenue", "Blue lake", "South park". This approach works pretty fine until you think of applying it to everything, e.g. "Manchester" would become "Manchester city", all shops would become "[name] shop" and will be rendered as such on maps or otherwise additional algorithms will need to be coded for rederers to decide whether to cut a category name from the displayed name or not for each particular country.

I invision the following solution here.
* First of all, the "name" tag should containt proper name only.
* Secondly, introduce a new tag for the real life language specific category name. I know that "name:prefix/postfix" key was originally introduced for another purpose but it can be a candidate here as well. Note that in some languages the place of category name relative to the proper name matters.
* Thirdly, in order to make the life of renderers simple, introduce one more tag for holding the name which can be displayed on maps as is without any modifications, e.g. "display_name". This tag may contain whatever content is considered locally appropriate specifically for rendering on maps. For example, it may contain proper name with category abbriviation like "r. Missisipi" or proper name with category full name like "Liberty avenue" or if an object has no proper name but is worth being labeled like "police station". Locally agreed upon rules should prevail here and if somebody needs another format he is free to utilize "name" and "name:prefix" tags the way he likes it.
If proper name is considered good for rendering without any modifications like "Manchester" city then display_name can be missing.

Here are a couple of collective examples:
* highway=residential + name:ru=Независимости + name:prefix:ru=проспект + display_name:ru="пр-т Независимости"
* waterway=river + name:de=Elbe + name:prefix:de=Fluß (no "display_name" tag becase they usually display only proper names of rivers on maps in Germany)
* place=city + name:en=Manchester (no "display_name" tag because it is equal to "name", and no "name:prefix" tag if and only if the values in "place" tag correspond to the real life settlement categories in US)

Regards,
Eugene P


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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

François Lacombe-2
Hi Eugene,

I don't get the link between geospatial db or not and the difficulties regarding the local side of tagging.
The same issues can raise on geospatial db as well don't you ?

All the best

François

Le mer. 5 déc. 2018 à 16:50, Eugene Podshivalov <[hidden email]> a écrit :
This email is a forward message of this forum topic

I guess this topic has been raised may times already but let me add to it.
Right now OSM is a collection of dots and lines with some generic tags for rendering them on a map. They do compile into nice maps but does it really work when it comes to searching for objects of real life categories? Let's look into some examples.
* place=city/town/village/hamlet/isolated_dwelling stand for settlements of some pupulation ranges. But each country has its own categorization of settlements which may absolutely differ from the suggested gradation.
* waterway=river/stream are used for natural relatively large or small waterways. But the notion of river may differ from country to country and they may have a much wider range of categories then just these two ones.
* amenity=school/university/college have some generic notion of secondary, higher and further edicution institutions. But again each country has it's own categorization of educational institutions and in some cases it even contradicts the suggested tag names, e.g. in Russia they have colleges as something intermediate between high school and university.

To wrap it up it is hard to impossible to get objects of some real live category from OSM database in order for example to hight light them on a map or to list them in search results.

There are two workarounds used right now. The first one is to bind some new tags to local categories e.g. school=high_school, school=college. This approach is very contradictary because it is recognized only locally and may conflict with notations in other countries.
The second one is to put category name into "name" tag, e.g. "Liberty avenue", "Blue lake", "South park". This approach works pretty fine until you think of applying it to everything, e.g. "Manchester" would become "Manchester city", all shops would become "[name] shop" and will be rendered as such on maps or otherwise additional algorithms will need to be coded for rederers to decide whether to cut a category name from the displayed name or not for each particular country.

I invision the following solution here.
* First of all, the "name" tag should containt proper name only.
* Secondly, introduce a new tag for the real life language specific category name. I know that "name:prefix/postfix" key was originally introduced for another purpose but it can be a candidate here as well. Note that in some languages the place of category name relative to the proper name matters.
* Thirdly, in order to make the life of renderers simple, introduce one more tag for holding the name which can be displayed on maps as is without any modifications, e.g. "display_name". This tag may contain whatever content is considered locally appropriate specifically for rendering on maps. For example, it may contain proper name with category abbriviation like "r. Missisipi" or proper name with category full name like "Liberty avenue" or if an object has no proper name but is worth being labeled like "police station". Locally agreed upon rules should prevail here and if somebody needs another format he is free to utilize "name" and "name:prefix" tags the way he likes it.
If proper name is considered good for rendering without any modifications like "Manchester" city then display_name can be missing.

Here are a couple of collective examples:
* highway=residential + name:ru=Независимости + name:prefix:ru=проспект + display_name:ru="пр-т Независимости"
* waterway=river + name:de=Elbe + name:prefix:de=Fluß (no "display_name" tag becase they usually display only proper names of rivers on maps in Germany)
* place=city + name:en=Manchester (no "display_name" tag because it is equal to "name", and no "name:prefix" tag if and only if the values in "place" tag correspond to the real life settlement categories in US)

Regards,
Eugene P

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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Eugene Podshivalov


Am Mi., 5. Dez. 2018 um 16:50 Uhr schrieb Eugene Podshivalov <[hidden email]>:
I invision the following solution here.

* First of all, the "name" tag should containt proper name only.



this is already the case. At least it should be like this, if you see places where the name tag is abused for descriptions you should fix it. I admit, it is not always possible to clearly tell which is the correct name, for some kind of things, not even in the real world.
At least in OSM you can add alternative names, generically or with specific meaning (loc_name, short_name, etc.)

 

* Secondly, introduce a new tag for the real life language specific category name. I know that "name:prefix/postfix" key was originally introduced for another purpose but it can be a candidate here as well. Note that in some languages the place of category name relative to the proper name matters.



I agree this could make sense, I am doing it for places where you can eat with this tag and local values:

I would not expect it useful for any kind of things, but there are fields with cultural specialties where I agree that it would be hard to agree on detailed categories on a global level, and still it might not make sense outside of a specific cultural context anyway.


Cheers,
Martin

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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Eugene Podshivalov
In reply to this post by François Lacombe-2
Hi François,
I guess you come from France, so let's me try to get some example applicable to your location.
I do not know much about edicuation system in France but found out from wiki that your school system consists of "ecole maternelle", "ecole elementaire", "college" and "lycee".
How do you get all colleges in France from OSM database? amanity=college tag which stands for a higher than university institution will not help you here, will it? You defintely need some other tag for you local categorizaiton of schools or you search by the respective word in the "name" tag but the "name" tag does not always contain a category name.

Regards,
Eugene

ср, 5 дек. 2018 г. в 19:32, François Lacombe <[hidden email]>:
Hi Eugene,

I don't get the link between geospatial db or not and the difficulties regarding the local side of tagging.
The same issues can raise on geospatial db as well don't you ?

All the best

François

Le mer. 5 déc. 2018 à 16:50, Eugene Podshivalov <[hidden email]> a écrit :
This email is a forward message of this forum topic

I guess this topic has been raised may times already but let me add to it.
Right now OSM is a collection of dots and lines with some generic tags for rendering them on a map. They do compile into nice maps but does it really work when it comes to searching for objects of real life categories? Let's look into some examples.
* place=city/town/village/hamlet/isolated_dwelling stand for settlements of some pupulation ranges. But each country has its own categorization of settlements which may absolutely differ from the suggested gradation.
* waterway=river/stream are used for natural relatively large or small waterways. But the notion of river may differ from country to country and they may have a much wider range of categories then just these two ones.
* amenity=school/university/college have some generic notion of secondary, higher and further edicution institutions. But again each country has it's own categorization of educational institutions and in some cases it even contradicts the suggested tag names, e.g. in Russia they have colleges as something intermediate between high school and university.

To wrap it up it is hard to impossible to get objects of some real live category from OSM database in order for example to hight light them on a map or to list them in search results.

There are two workarounds used right now. The first one is to bind some new tags to local categories e.g. school=high_school, school=college. This approach is very contradictary because it is recognized only locally and may conflict with notations in other countries.
The second one is to put category name into "name" tag, e.g. "Liberty avenue", "Blue lake", "South park". This approach works pretty fine until you think of applying it to everything, e.g. "Manchester" would become "Manchester city", all shops would become "[name] shop" and will be rendered as such on maps or otherwise additional algorithms will need to be coded for rederers to decide whether to cut a category name from the displayed name or not for each particular country.

I invision the following solution here.
* First of all, the "name" tag should containt proper name only.
* Secondly, introduce a new tag for the real life language specific category name. I know that "name:prefix/postfix" key was originally introduced for another purpose but it can be a candidate here as well. Note that in some languages the place of category name relative to the proper name matters.
* Thirdly, in order to make the life of renderers simple, introduce one more tag for holding the name which can be displayed on maps as is without any modifications, e.g. "display_name". This tag may contain whatever content is considered locally appropriate specifically for rendering on maps. For example, it may contain proper name with category abbriviation like "r. Missisipi" or proper name with category full name like "Liberty avenue" or if an object has no proper name but is worth being labeled like "police station". Locally agreed upon rules should prevail here and if somebody needs another format he is free to utilize "name" and "name:prefix" tags the way he likes it.
If proper name is considered good for rendering without any modifications like "Manchester" city then display_name can be missing.

Here are a couple of collective examples:
* highway=residential + name:ru=Независимости + name:prefix:ru=проспект + display_name:ru="пр-т Независимости"
* waterway=river + name:de=Elbe + name:prefix:de=Fluß (no "display_name" tag becase they usually display only proper names of rivers on maps in Germany)
* place=city + name:en=Manchester (no "display_name" tag because it is equal to "name", and no "name:prefix" tag if and only if the values in "place" tag correspond to the real life settlement categories in US)

Regards,
Eugene P

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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

François Lacombe-2
Thanks Eugene,

That's a good example and I agree with you.
This is nevertheless not related to the geospacial nor relational database type but it's localisation issues.

Then I'm ok with you regarding name tags, it's hard to maintain at world scale and is often cluttered with specific local terms

All the best

François

Le mer. 5 déc. 2018 à 18:35, Eugene Podshivalov <[hidden email]> a écrit :
Hi François,
I guess you come from France, so let's me try to get some example applicable to your location.
I do not know much about edicuation system in France but found out from wiki that your school system consists of "ecole maternelle", "ecole elementaire", "college" and "lycee".
How do you get all colleges in France from OSM database? amanity=college tag which stands for a higher than university institution will not help you here, will it? You defintely need some other tag for you local categorizaiton of schools or you search by the respective word in the "name" tag but the "name" tag does not always contain a category name.

Regards,
Eugene

ср, 5 дек. 2018 г. в 19:32, François Lacombe <[hidden email]>:
Hi Eugene,

I don't get the link between geospatial db or not and the difficulties regarding the local side of tagging.
The same issues can raise on geospatial db as well don't you ?

All the best

François

Le mer. 5 déc. 2018 à 16:50, Eugene Podshivalov <[hidden email]> a écrit :
This email is a forward message of this forum topic

I guess this topic has been raised may times already but let me add to it.
Right now OSM is a collection of dots and lines with some generic tags for rendering them on a map. They do compile into nice maps but does it really work when it comes to searching for objects of real life categories? Let's look into some examples.
* place=city/town/village/hamlet/isolated_dwelling stand for settlements of some pupulation ranges. But each country has its own categorization of settlements which may absolutely differ from the suggested gradation.
* waterway=river/stream are used for natural relatively large or small waterways. But the notion of river may differ from country to country and they may have a much wider range of categories then just these two ones.
* amenity=school/university/college have some generic notion of secondary, higher and further edicution institutions. But again each country has it's own categorization of educational institutions and in some cases it even contradicts the suggested tag names, e.g. in Russia they have colleges as something intermediate between high school and university.

To wrap it up it is hard to impossible to get objects of some real live category from OSM database in order for example to hight light them on a map or to list them in search results.

There are two workarounds used right now. The first one is to bind some new tags to local categories e.g. school=high_school, school=college. This approach is very contradictary because it is recognized only locally and may conflict with notations in other countries.
The second one is to put category name into "name" tag, e.g. "Liberty avenue", "Blue lake", "South park". This approach works pretty fine until you think of applying it to everything, e.g. "Manchester" would become "Manchester city", all shops would become "[name] shop" and will be rendered as such on maps or otherwise additional algorithms will need to be coded for rederers to decide whether to cut a category name from the displayed name or not for each particular country.

I invision the following solution here.
* First of all, the "name" tag should containt proper name only.
* Secondly, introduce a new tag for the real life language specific category name. I know that "name:prefix/postfix" key was originally introduced for another purpose but it can be a candidate here as well. Note that in some languages the place of category name relative to the proper name matters.
* Thirdly, in order to make the life of renderers simple, introduce one more tag for holding the name which can be displayed on maps as is without any modifications, e.g. "display_name". This tag may contain whatever content is considered locally appropriate specifically for rendering on maps. For example, it may contain proper name with category abbriviation like "r. Missisipi" or proper name with category full name like "Liberty avenue" or if an object has no proper name but is worth being labeled like "police station". Locally agreed upon rules should prevail here and if somebody needs another format he is free to utilize "name" and "name:prefix" tags the way he likes it.
If proper name is considered good for rendering without any modifications like "Manchester" city then display_name can be missing.

Here are a couple of collective examples:
* highway=residential + name:ru=Независимости + name:prefix:ru=проспект + display_name:ru="пр-т Независимости"
* waterway=river + name:de=Elbe + name:prefix:de=Fluß (no "display_name" tag becase they usually display only proper names of rivers on maps in Germany)
* place=city + name:en=Manchester (no "display_name" tag because it is equal to "name", and no "name:prefix" tag if and only if the values in "place" tag correspond to the real life settlement categories in US)

Regards,
Eugene P

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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Eugene Podshivalov
François,
This is nevertheless not related to the geospacial nor relational database type but it's localisation issues. 
On one hand you are right, on the other hand how can you call OSM a database if you cannot perform such simple tasks with it like getting a list of for example lakes within a specific country? You search for water=lake but you get results which differ a lot from what is locally called a "lake".
Is there any approach which resolves this thing?

Regards,
Eugene

ср, 5 дек. 2018 г. в 20:40, François Lacombe <[hidden email]>:
Thanks Eugene,

That's a good example and I agree with you.
This is nevertheless not related to the geospacial nor relational database type but it's localisation issues.

Then I'm ok with you regarding name tags, it's hard to maintain at world scale and is often cluttered with specific local terms

All the best

François

Le mer. 5 déc. 2018 à 18:35, Eugene Podshivalov <[hidden email]> a écrit :
Hi François,
I guess you come from France, so let's me try to get some example applicable to your location.
I do not know much about edicuation system in France but found out from wiki that your school system consists of "ecole maternelle", "ecole elementaire", "college" and "lycee".
How do you get all colleges in France from OSM database? amanity=college tag which stands for a higher than university institution will not help you here, will it? You defintely need some other tag for you local categorizaiton of schools or you search by the respective word in the "name" tag but the "name" tag does not always contain a category name.

Regards,
Eugene

ср, 5 дек. 2018 г. в 19:32, François Lacombe <[hidden email]>:
Hi Eugene,

I don't get the link between geospatial db or not and the difficulties regarding the local side of tagging.
The same issues can raise on geospatial db as well don't you ?

All the best

François

Le mer. 5 déc. 2018 à 16:50, Eugene Podshivalov <[hidden email]> a écrit :
This email is a forward message of this forum topic

I guess this topic has been raised may times already but let me add to it.
Right now OSM is a collection of dots and lines with some generic tags for rendering them on a map. They do compile into nice maps but does it really work when it comes to searching for objects of real life categories? Let's look into some examples.
* place=city/town/village/hamlet/isolated_dwelling stand for settlements of some pupulation ranges. But each country has its own categorization of settlements which may absolutely differ from the suggested gradation.
* waterway=river/stream are used for natural relatively large or small waterways. But the notion of river may differ from country to country and they may have a much wider range of categories then just these two ones.
* amenity=school/university/college have some generic notion of secondary, higher and further edicution institutions. But again each country has it's own categorization of educational institutions and in some cases it even contradicts the suggested tag names, e.g. in Russia they have colleges as something intermediate between high school and university.

To wrap it up it is hard to impossible to get objects of some real live category from OSM database in order for example to hight light them on a map or to list them in search results.

There are two workarounds used right now. The first one is to bind some new tags to local categories e.g. school=high_school, school=college. This approach is very contradictary because it is recognized only locally and may conflict with notations in other countries.
The second one is to put category name into "name" tag, e.g. "Liberty avenue", "Blue lake", "South park". This approach works pretty fine until you think of applying it to everything, e.g. "Manchester" would become "Manchester city", all shops would become "[name] shop" and will be rendered as such on maps or otherwise additional algorithms will need to be coded for rederers to decide whether to cut a category name from the displayed name or not for each particular country.

I invision the following solution here.
* First of all, the "name" tag should containt proper name only.
* Secondly, introduce a new tag for the real life language specific category name. I know that "name:prefix/postfix" key was originally introduced for another purpose but it can be a candidate here as well. Note that in some languages the place of category name relative to the proper name matters.
* Thirdly, in order to make the life of renderers simple, introduce one more tag for holding the name which can be displayed on maps as is without any modifications, e.g. "display_name". This tag may contain whatever content is considered locally appropriate specifically for rendering on maps. For example, it may contain proper name with category abbriviation like "r. Missisipi" or proper name with category full name like "Liberty avenue" or if an object has no proper name but is worth being labeled like "police station". Locally agreed upon rules should prevail here and if somebody needs another format he is free to utilize "name" and "name:prefix" tags the way he likes it.
If proper name is considered good for rendering without any modifications like "Manchester" city then display_name can be missing.

Here are a couple of collective examples:
* highway=residential + name:ru=Независимости + name:prefix:ru=проспект + display_name:ru="пр-т Независимости"
* waterway=river + name:de=Elbe + name:prefix:de=Fluß (no "display_name" tag becase they usually display only proper names of rivers on maps in Germany)
* place=city + name:en=Manchester (no "display_name" tag because it is equal to "name", and no "name:prefix" tag if and only if the values in "place" tag correspond to the real life settlement categories in US)

Regards,
Eugene P

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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Eugene Podshivalov
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
Martin,
this is already the case. At least it should be like this, if you see places where the name tag is abused for descriptions you should fix it. I admit, it is not always possible to clearly tell which is the correct name, for some kind of things, not even in the real world.
At least in OSM you can add alternative names, generically or with specific meaning (loc_name, short_name, etc.)
The name tag is abused very often and systematically. Let's take at look at this spot in the centre of Paris
You can see category names displayed everywhere there, e.g. musium, hotel, school (in French).
As a result when you query OSM database for some category items you have to apply algorithms for clearing category names from the name field to get just proper names.

Regards,
Eugene


ср, 5 дек. 2018 г. в 20:25, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]>:


Am Mi., 5. Dez. 2018 um 16:50 Uhr schrieb Eugene Podshivalov <[hidden email]>:
I invision the following solution here.

* First of all, the "name" tag should containt proper name only.



this is already the case. At least it should be like this, if you see places where the name tag is abused for descriptions you should fix it. I admit, it is not always possible to clearly tell which is the correct name, for some kind of things, not even in the real world.
At least in OSM you can add alternative names, generically or with specific meaning (loc_name, short_name, etc.)

 

* Secondly, introduce a new tag for the real life language specific category name. I know that "name:prefix/postfix" key was originally introduced for another purpose but it can be a candidate here as well. Note that in some languages the place of category name relative to the proper name matters.



I agree this could make sense, I am doing it for places where you can eat with this tag and local values:

I would not expect it useful for any kind of things, but there are fields with cultural specialties where I agree that it would be hard to agree on detailed categories on a global level, and still it might not make sense outside of a specific cultural context anyway.


Cheers,
Martin
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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

marc marc
Le 05. 12. 18 à 19:36, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
> The name tag is abused very often and systematically.  
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/48.86138/2.36028

just because a hotel's name contains the word hotel does not necessarily
mean it is a false name. Some names are "hotêl abc" and not "abc"

the same for the lakes.
the lake near Geneva (France/Switzerland) is indeed called "Léman"
and it is a tautology (an error) to say Lake Léman.
But the "lake of the 4 cantons" in Switzerland is called the "lake of
the 4 cantons". If you ask someone where "of the 4 cantons" are located,
he don't understand what you're talking about because that not its name.
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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

OSMDoudou
In reply to this post by Eugene Podshivalov
> Let's take at look at this spot in the centre of Paris
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/48.86138/2.36028
> You can see category names displayed everywhere there, e.g. musium, hotel, school (in French).
> As a result when you query OSM database for some category items you have to apply algorithms for clearing
> category names from the name field to get just proper names

Not sure I understand.

Do you mean "École primaire des Quatre Fils" doesn't have a proper name ?

What would be a better name ?


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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Topographe Fou
In reply to this post by Eugene Podshivalov
I don't see as many issues in your exemple... If École or Musée is part of the name, I don't see why we shall invent a truncated name. It's not because the type is part of the name that we shall remove it.

Let's take a more famous example: 'Arc de Triomphe' is the name of a landmark in Paris but it is also an 'Arc' (Arch in English). Same for 'Tour Eiffel' (which is a Tour, i.e. a Tower, but also an antenna). I don't see any solution in renaming them Eiffel or Triomphe. Instead we use the name for the 'name' and add their types (a Tower, an arch, a landmark, an antenna...) in attributes.

And if one needs to list all Lakes in a given country then you have your answer: If it is on a geological basis, then he will look for attributes others than 'name'. If it is on a 'per use' basis, i.e. he wants to know which water area is called lake no matter if it is really one or not, then he will look in the name considering all possible translations. If I live next to a place called 'Hudson Bay' then I put name='Hudson Bay' even if some may argue it may not be a Bay.

Consequently I don't see a real issue there.

Yours

LeTopographeFou
Envoyé: 5 décembre 2018 7:37 PM
Répondre à: [hidden email]
Objet: Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Martin,
this is already the case. At least it should be like this, if you see places where the name tag is abused for descriptions you should fix it. I admit, it is not always possible to clearly tell which is the correct name, for some kind of things, not even in the real world.
At least in OSM you can add alternative names, generically or with specific meaning (loc_name, short_name, etc.)
The name tag is abused very often and systematically. Let's take at look at this spot in the centre of Paris
You can see category names displayed everywhere there, e.g. musium, hotel, school (in French).
As a result when you query OSM database for some category items you have to apply algorithms for clearing category names from the name field to get just proper names.

Regards,
Eugene


ср, 5 дек. 2018 г. в 20:25, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]>:


Am Mi., 5. Dez. 2018 um 16:50 Uhr schrieb Eugene Podshivalov <[hidden email]>:
I invision the following solution here.

* First of all, the "name" tag should containt proper name only.



this is already the case. At least it should be like this, if you see places where the name tag is abused for descriptions you should fix it. I admit, it is not always possible to clearly tell which is the correct name, for some kind of things, not even in the real world.
At least in OSM you can add alternative names, generically or with specific meaning (loc_name, short_name, etc.)

 

* Secondly, introduce a new tag for the real life language specific category name. I know that "name:prefix/postfix" key was originally introduced for another purpose but it can be a candidate here as well. Note that in some languages the place of category name relative to the proper name matters.



I agree this could make sense, I am doing it for places where you can eat with this tag and local values:

I would not expect it useful for any kind of things, but there are fields with cultural specialties where I agree that it would be hard to agree on detailed categories on a global level, and still it might not make sense outside of a specific cultural context anyway.


Cheers,
Martin
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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Eugene Podshivalov
In reply to this post by marc marc
Marc,
the "lake of the 4 cantons" in Switzerland is called the "lake of 
the 4 cantons". If you ask someone where "of the 4 cantons" are located, 
he don't understand what you're talking about because that not its name.  
Would you be understoon if you ask someone "where is 'The 4 cantons""? 

ср, 5 дек. 2018 г. в 21:56, marc marc <[hidden email]>:
Le 05. 12. 18 à 19:36, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
> The name tag is abused very often and systematically. 
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/48.86138/2.36028

just because a hotel's name contains the word hotel does not necessarily
mean it is a false name. Some names are "hotêl abc" and not "abc"

the same for the lakes.
the lake near Geneva (France/Switzerland) is indeed called "Léman"
and it is a tautology (an error) to say Lake Léman.
But the "lake of the 4 cantons" in Switzerland is called the "lake of
the 4 cantons". If you ask someone where "of the 4 cantons" are located,
he don't understand what you're talking about because that not its name.
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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Eugene Podshivalov
In reply to this post by OSMDoudou
OSMDoudou,
Do you mean "École primaire des Quatre Fils" doesn't have a proper name ?
What would be a better name ?
I would say that the category is "École primaire" and the proper name is "des Quatre Fils" but the the commonly used phrase is all together.
The question was about some general approach for seaching objects of a particular category? How do you find all french ecoles? By name tag? How do you find other objects which do not have category name in the name tag then?

ср, 5 дек. 2018 г. в 21:58, OSMDoudou <[hidden email]>:
> Let's take at look at this spot in the centre of Paris
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/48.86138/2.36028
> You can see category names displayed everywhere there, e.g. musium, hotel, school (in French).
> As a result when you query OSM database for some category items you have to apply algorithms for clearing
> category names from the name field to get just proper names

Not sure I understand.

Do you mean "École primaire des Quatre Fils" doesn't have a proper name ?

What would be a better name ?


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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Yves-2
Eugene, unlike other geodatabase, OSM does not try really hard to standardize it's elements into worldwide applicable categories. The simple reason is that we have no chief, no standard.
Yes, there are tags that can differ in meaning locally, although it's not particularly desired, it happens.
OSM is human made, more particularly crowdsourced with its lot of exceptions and idiomatic.
We tend everyday to normalize the tagging on this list, but certainly never will make it completely 'square'. That's maybe the price to pay for the richness of OSM.

Anyway this absolutely does not mean that you should rely on the name tag to guess the nature of a particular element. If in doubt, the way to go is to ask the (local) community.
Yves
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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Sergio Manzi
In reply to this post by Eugene Podshivalov

About the "École primaire des Quatre Fils, the proper name would be the officialy registered one (or at least that's how it works in Europe), and I'm ready to bet whatever you want that it is not "de Quatre Fils".

About the "Lac des Quatre-Cantons" [1], no, you cannot ask "ou sont les Quatre-Cantons?" (Where are the four Cantons?): that would mean "Where are the 4 administratvie divisions called Cantons" as "a canton" [2] is firstly and formost an administrtive division (and not only in Switzerland): the lake itself has sevral names, depending on the language, and "Lac des Quatre-Cantons" is the proper name in French.

Trying to make the whole world reality simpler than it is and constrain it into a schema sometimes (very often, probably) doesn't work...

Cheers,

Sergio

[1] https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lac_des_Quatre-Cantons
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canton_(country_subdivision)


On 2018-12-05 20:31, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
OSMDoudou,
Do you mean "École primaire des Quatre Fils" doesn't have a proper name ?
What would be a better name ?
I would say that the category is "École primaire" and the proper name is "des Quatre Fils" but the the commonly used phrase is all together.
The question was about some general approach for seaching objects of a particular category? How do you find all french ecoles? By name tag? How do you find other objects which do not have category name in the name tag then?

ср, 5 дек. 2018 г. в 21:58, OSMDoudou <[hidden email]>:
> Let's take at look at this spot in the centre of Paris
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/48.86138/2.36028
> You can see category names displayed everywhere there, e.g. musium, hotel, school (in French).
> As a result when you query OSM database for some category items you have to apply algorithms for clearing
> category names from the name field to get just proper names

Not sure I understand.

Do you mean "École primaire des Quatre Fils" doesn't have a proper name ?

What would be a better name ?


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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Imre Samu
In reply to this post by Topographe Fou
> If I live next to a place called 'Hudson Bay' then I put name='Hudson Bay' even if some may argue it may not be a Bay.

We can link most of the objects to the Wikidata 
https://nominatim.openstreetmap.org/details.php?place_id=1282777       -> wikidata=Q3040  ->  https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q3040 ->   instance of ["inland sea" ;  "bay" ]

So if somebody don't like the osm categories ( for query ),   it is possible to use the Wikidata categories  

instance of
-  lattice tower 
-  observation tower 
-  landmark 
-  tourist destination

So with linked data (wikidata, lau numbers )  - we can extend the power of the OSM 
One of the example:  https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Sophox  ( some query is not working yet )

Imre


Topographe Fou <[hidden email]> ezt írta (időpont: 2018. dec. 5., Sze, 20:07):
I don't see as many issues in your exemple... If École or Musée is part of the name, I don't see why we shall invent a truncated name. It's not because the type is part of the name that we shall remove it.

Let's take a more famous example: 'Arc de Triomphe' is the name of a landmark in Paris but it is also an 'Arc' (Arch in English). Same for 'Tour Eiffel' (which is a Tour, i.e. a Tower, but also an antenna). I don't see any solution in renaming them Eiffel or Triomphe. Instead we use the name for the 'name' and add their types (a Tower, an arch, a landmark, an antenna...) in attributes.

And if one needs to list all Lakes in a given country then you have your answer: If it is on a geological basis, then he will look for attributes others than 'name'. If it is on a 'per use' basis, i.e. he wants to know which water area is called lake no matter if it is really one or not, then he will look in the name considering all possible translations. If I live next to a place called 'Hudson Bay' then I put name='Hudson Bay' even if some may argue it may not be a Bay.

Consequently I don't see a real issue there.

Yours

LeTopographeFou
Envoyé: 5 décembre 2018 7:37 PM
Répondre à: [hidden email]
Objet: Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Martin,
this is already the case. At least it should be like this, if you see places where the name tag is abused for descriptions you should fix it. I admit, it is not always possible to clearly tell which is the correct name, for some kind of things, not even in the real world.
At least in OSM you can add alternative names, generically or with specific meaning (loc_name, short_name, etc.)
The name tag is abused very often and systematically. Let's take at look at this spot in the centre of Paris
You can see category names displayed everywhere there, e.g. musium, hotel, school (in French).
As a result when you query OSM database for some category items you have to apply algorithms for clearing category names from the name field to get just proper names.

Regards,
Eugene


ср, 5 дек. 2018 г. в 20:25, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]>:


Am Mi., 5. Dez. 2018 um 16:50 Uhr schrieb Eugene Podshivalov <[hidden email]>:
I invision the following solution here.

* First of all, the "name" tag should containt proper name only.



this is already the case. At least it should be like this, if you see places where the name tag is abused for descriptions you should fix it. I admit, it is not always possible to clearly tell which is the correct name, for some kind of things, not even in the real world.
At least in OSM you can add alternative names, generically or with specific meaning (loc_name, short_name, etc.)

 

* Secondly, introduce a new tag for the real life language specific category name. I know that "name:prefix/postfix" key was originally introduced for another purpose but it can be a candidate here as well. Note that in some languages the place of category name relative to the proper name matters.



I agree this could make sense, I am doing it for places where you can eat with this tag and local values:

I would not expect it useful for any kind of things, but there are fields with cultural specialties where I agree that it would be hard to agree on detailed categories on a global level, and still it might not make sense outside of a specific cultural context anyway.


Cheers,
Martin
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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Paul Johnson-3


On Wed, Dec 5, 2018, 14:10 Imre Samu <[hidden email] wrote:
> If I live next to a place called 'Hudson Bay' then I put name='Hudson Bay' even if some may argue it may not be a Bay.

I'd assume you meant a department store, and if I knew you were near me, I'd also assume it to be a Saks Fifth Avenue (Hudson Bay's main US brand that flies the HBC company flag in front of its stores) specifically.

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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Eugene Podshivalov
In reply to this post by Imre Samu
It looks like I've directed you a bit off the initial topic to the definition of proper name.
Let us look at it from the other side. Assume we all agree that "École primaire des Quatre Fils" is the proper name.
Is there some common approach for denoting locally recognized categories which differ from commonly approved tags?
E.g. how to denote the " École primaire" category?

ср, 5 дек. 2018 г. в 23:10, Imre Samu <[hidden email]>:
> If I live next to a place called 'Hudson Bay' then I put name='Hudson Bay' even if some may argue it may not be a Bay.

We can link most of the objects to the Wikidata 
https://nominatim.openstreetmap.org/details.php?place_id=1282777       -> wikidata=Q3040  ->  https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q3040 ->   instance of ["inland sea" ;  "bay" ]

So if somebody don't like the osm categories ( for query ),   it is possible to use the Wikidata categories  

instance of
-  lattice tower 
-  observation tower 
-  landmark 
-  tourist destination

So with linked data (wikidata, lau numbers )  - we can extend the power of the OSM 
One of the example:  https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Sophox  ( some query is not working yet )

Imre


Topographe Fou <[hidden email]> ezt írta (időpont: 2018. dec. 5., Sze, 20:07):
I don't see as many issues in your exemple... If École or Musée is part of the name, I don't see why we shall invent a truncated name. It's not because the type is part of the name that we shall remove it.

Let's take a more famous example: 'Arc de Triomphe' is the name of a landmark in Paris but it is also an 'Arc' (Arch in English). Same for 'Tour Eiffel' (which is a Tour, i.e. a Tower, but also an antenna). I don't see any solution in renaming them Eiffel or Triomphe. Instead we use the name for the 'name' and add their types (a Tower, an arch, a landmark, an antenna...) in attributes.

And if one needs to list all Lakes in a given country then you have your answer: If it is on a geological basis, then he will look for attributes others than 'name'. If it is on a 'per use' basis, i.e. he wants to know which water area is called lake no matter if it is really one or not, then he will look in the name considering all possible translations. If I live next to a place called 'Hudson Bay' then I put name='Hudson Bay' even if some may argue it may not be a Bay.

Consequently I don't see a real issue there.

Yours

LeTopographeFou
Envoyé: 5 décembre 2018 7:37 PM
Répondre à: [hidden email]
Objet: Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Martin,
this is already the case. At least it should be like this, if you see places where the name tag is abused for descriptions you should fix it. I admit, it is not always possible to clearly tell which is the correct name, for some kind of things, not even in the real world.
At least in OSM you can add alternative names, generically or with specific meaning (loc_name, short_name, etc.)
The name tag is abused very often and systematically. Let's take at look at this spot in the centre of Paris
You can see category names displayed everywhere there, e.g. musium, hotel, school (in French).
As a result when you query OSM database for some category items you have to apply algorithms for clearing category names from the name field to get just proper names.

Regards,
Eugene


ср, 5 дек. 2018 г. в 20:25, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]>:


Am Mi., 5. Dez. 2018 um 16:50 Uhr schrieb Eugene Podshivalov <[hidden email]>:
I invision the following solution here.

* First of all, the "name" tag should containt proper name only.



this is already the case. At least it should be like this, if you see places where the name tag is abused for descriptions you should fix it. I admit, it is not always possible to clearly tell which is the correct name, for some kind of things, not even in the real world.
At least in OSM you can add alternative names, generically or with specific meaning (loc_name, short_name, etc.)

 

* Secondly, introduce a new tag for the real life language specific category name. I know that "name:prefix/postfix" key was originally introduced for another purpose but it can be a candidate here as well. Note that in some languages the place of category name relative to the proper name matters.



I agree this could make sense, I am doing it for places where you can eat with this tag and local values:

I would not expect it useful for any kind of things, but there are fields with cultural specialties where I agree that it would be hard to agree on detailed categories on a global level, and still it might not make sense outside of a specific cultural context anyway.


Cheers,
Martin
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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Sergio Manzi

Once again, reality is complex and multifaced: I don't think one should try to frame what is a local French reality, an "École primaire", into an US or UK based context: let the French decide...

I have the same problem for some shop categories which are not part of the US/UK tradition: an Italian "salumeria" [1] is in no way similar to a US "deli" shop...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salumeria


On 2018-12-05 21:45, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
It looks like I've directed you a bit off the initial topic to the definition of proper name.
Let us look at it from the other side. Assume we all agree that "École primaire des Quatre Fils" is the proper name.
Is there some common approach for denoting locally recognized categories which differ from commonly approved tags?
E.g. how to denote the " École primaire" category?

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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Sergio Manzi

P.S.: ... but if I want my salumeria to show up on the map, I have to "lie for the rendering" and tag it as a shop=deli: but'I'm not happy at all...

On 2018-12-05 22:02, Sergio Manzi wrote:

Once again, reality is complex and multifaced: I don't think one should try to frame what is a local French reality, an "École primaire", into an US or UK based context: let the French decide...

I have the same problem for some shop categories which are not part of the US/UK tradition: an Italian "salumeria" [1] is in no way similar to a US "deli" shop...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salumeria


On 2018-12-05 21:45, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
It looks like I've directed you a bit off the initial topic to the definition of proper name.
Let us look at it from the other side. Assume we all agree that "École primaire des Quatre Fils" is the proper name.
Is there some common approach for denoting locally recognized categories which differ from commonly approved tags?
E.g. how to denote the " École primaire" category?

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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Eugene Podshivalov
In reply to this post by Sergio Manzi
Sergio,
I don't think one should try to frame what is a local French reality, an "École primaire", into an US or UK based context  
The is no need to do it. But there should be some generally recognized concept for doing it locally for local context.
What is your solution for denoting "salumeria" shop so that it was possible to grab all shops of that kind from the database?

чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 00:03, Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]>:

Once again, reality is complex and multifaced: I don't think one should try to frame what is a local French reality, an "École primaire", into an US or UK based context: let the French decide...

I have the same problem for some shop categories which are not part of the US/UK tradition: an Italian "salumeria" [1] is in no way similar to a US "deli" shop...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salumeria


On 2018-12-05 21:45, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
It looks like I've directed you a bit off the initial topic to the definition of proper name.
Let us look at it from the other side. Assume we all agree that "École primaire des Quatre Fils" is the proper name.
Is there some common approach for denoting locally recognized categories which differ from commonly approved tags?
E.g. how to denote the " École primaire" category?
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