Can OSM become a geospacial database?

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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

OSMDoudou
So, are you then asking how to find this school or any other, without searching through the name tag ?

Then, search for elements tagged with amenity=school.


And if you want to search elementary schools, search for school=* or isced:level=* (provided it’s tagged).


This school happens to be tagged with school:FR=élémentaire.


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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Sergio Manzi
In reply to this post by Eugene Podshivalov

There is no way I can think of: for lack of better tagging some very different shop categories (very different in our culture...), like the aforementioned "salumeria", "rosticeria", "polleria", the generic "alimentari", and many others, have all been tagged as "shop=deli", so we have "lost part of our traditions" for the sake of simplification and the urge of a methodical tagging schema which is rooted in a different culture.

It is sad, I guess..


On 2018-12-05 22:10, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
What is your solution for denoting "salumeria" shop so that it was possible to grab all shops of that kind from the database?

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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Sergio Manzi

But maybe I've misunderstood your question: if you where asking how I would like to tag a salumeria, the answer for me would be really simple: "shop=salumeria"

On 2018-12-05 22:23, Sergio Manzi wrote:

There is no way I can think of: for lack of better tagging some very different shop categories (very different in our culture...), like the aforementioned "salumeria", "rosticeria", "polleria", the generic "alimentari", and many others, have all been tagged as "shop=deli", so we have "lost part of our traditions" for the sake of simplification and the urge of a methodical tagging schema which is rooted in a different culture.

It is sad, I guess..


On 2018-12-05 22:10, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
What is your solution for denoting "salumeria" shop so that it was possible to grab all shops of that kind from the database?

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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Sergio Manzi

... or maybe a better solution, if we would like the kind of shop to be comprhensible to people of different culture, then I would establish a namespace for food shops and then specify the (locally relevant) kind of shop, like eg. shop:food=salumeria.

On 2018-12-05 22:26, Sergio Manzi wrote:

But maybe I've misunderstood your question: if you where asking how I would like to tag a salumeria, the answer for me would be really simple: "shop=salumeria"

On 2018-12-05 22:23, Sergio Manzi wrote:

There is no way I can think of: for lack of better tagging some very different shop categories (very different in our culture...), like the aforementioned "salumeria", "rosticeria", "polleria", the generic "alimentari", and many others, have all been tagged as "shop=deli", so we have "lost part of our traditions" for the sake of simplification and the urge of a methodical tagging schema which is rooted in a different culture.

It is sad, I guess..


On 2018-12-05 22:10, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
What is your solution for denoting "salumeria" shop so that it was possible to grab all shops of that kind from the database?

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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

marc marc
In reply to this post by Eugene Podshivalov
Le 05. 12. 18 à 20:20, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
> Marc,
>
>     the "lake of the 4 cantons" in Switzerland is called the "lake of
>     the 4 cantons". If you ask someone where "of the 4 cantons" are
>     located,
>     he don't understand what you're talking about because that not its
>     name.
>
> Would you be understoon if you ask someone "where is 'The 4 cantons""?

not at all !
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantons_of_Switzerland
Switzerland has 26 cantons and if you ask where the 4 cantons are, you
will be asked which one ? those from the north? those speaking French?
those from the plain? in short, "the 4 cantons" mean nothing.
the lake of the 4 cantons+ is the real and complete name of a lake.
it is so called because at one point in the past, it was spread over
4 cantons. but nothing at this place is called "4 cantons" without
the word lake. and currently the lake is spread over 5 cantons :)

Le 05. 12. 18 à 20:31, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
 > How do you find all french ecoles?

may I ask you if it's your first use of osm ?
to look for all french ecoles : amenity=school in France
for ex with overpass https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/Ej3
you may also look for all french "ecoles" without a name in osm!
if you want to said that amenity=school return several subtype
then you need a "sub-tag", France do it with school:FR
and maybe one day, a international sub-tag 'll be used
But in all case, it's fully wrong to parse the name tag for this.

Regards,
Marc
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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Graeme Fitzpatrick
In reply to this post by Eugene Podshivalov


On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 at 04:04, Eugene Podshivalov <[hidden email]> wrote:
if you cannot perform such simple tasks with it like getting a list of for example lakes within a specific country? You search for water=lake but you get results which differ a lot from what is locally called a "lake".

When you say "you get results which differ a lot from what is locally called a "lake".", do you mean what is called a lake in Russia, 
or what is called a lake in the country you are searching in?

Because, if you search for "lake" in Australia, you will find a lot of references to salt lakes, possibly dry, that may only actually have water in them very rarely, 
or in some cases, never in human memory! But they are still called lakes, the same as the "normal" inland bodies of water.
 
Thanks

Graeme
 

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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Dave F
In reply to this post by Sergio Manzi
Going off topic, but you /can/ tag it as "shop=salumeria", it will still be searchable & will be displayed on the standard map with its name & a dot.

DaveF

On 05/12/2018 21:26, Sergio Manzi wrote:

But maybe I've misunderstood your question: if you where asking how I would like to tag a salumeria, the answer for me would be really simple: "shop=salumeria"

On 2018-12-05 22:23, Sergio Manzi wrote:

There is no way I can think of: for lack of better tagging some very different shop categories (very different in our culture...), like the aforementioned "salumeria", "rosticeria", "polleria", the generic "alimentari", and many others, have all been tagged as "shop=deli", so we have "lost part of our traditions" for the sake of simplification and the urge of a methodical tagging schema which is rooted in a different culture.

It is sad, I guess..


On 2018-12-05 22:10, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
What is your solution for denoting "salumeria" shop so that it was possible to grab all shops of that kind from the database?


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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Sergio Manzi

you're probably right, but it would nonetheless be the "child of a lesser God" compared to a "deli" in New York, USA...


On 2018-12-05 22:51, Dave F wrote:

Going off topic, but you /can/ tag it as "shop=salumeria", it will still be searchable & will be displayed on the standard map with its name & a dot.


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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Eugene Podshivalov
Marc and OSMDoudou,
I did see that in France they put their local school categories into "school:FR" tag but do you think this approach can be propogated for all other categories?
E.g. in Russian there are different types of man-made small bodies of water. Will it work to denote them as water:RU=пруд and water:RU=копанка instead of the generic water=pond?

Graeme,
When you say "you get results which differ a lot from what is locally called a "lake".", do you mean what is called a lake in Russia, 
or what is called a lake in the country you are searching in?
I mean when you search for "water=lake" tag you don't necesseraly get "озеро" (which is usually tranlated from Russian as "lake"). So unless you have "озеро" in the name tag you will never find all these objects which are called "озеро" in Russian.
Because, if you search for "lake" in Australia, you will find a lot of references to salt lakes, possibly dry, that may only actually have water in them very rarely, 
or in some cases, never in human memory! But they are still called lakes, the same as the "normal" inland bodies of water.
There is intermitent=yes tag to denote dry lakes as far as I remember.

чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 01:04, Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]>:

you're probably right, but it would nonetheless be the "child of a lesser God" compared to a "deli" in New York, USA...


On 2018-12-05 22:51, Dave F wrote:

Going off topic, but you /can/ tag it as "shop=salumeria", it will still be searchable & will be displayed on the standard map with its name & a dot.

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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

marc marc
Le 05. 12. 18 à 23:41, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
> I did see that in France they put their local school categories into
> "school:FR" tag but do you think this approach can be propogated for all
> other categories?

school:FR is a visible sign of a failure of the global proposal for
school reform at the global level, so no, I really wouldn't advise
to do it again.
I think it is more interesting to try to find a global criterion to make
subcategories, otherwise we end up with one osm per country instead of
one global osm
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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Sergio Manzi
In reply to this post by Eugene Podshivalov

I understand the name of Lake Baikal in Russian is "Байкал", without the "озерo" attribute, but you want to be able to search for озеро as well: would the following be acceptable/valid?

water=lake
water:RU=озеро
name=Lake Baikal
name:RU=Байкал
name:FR=Lac Baïkal

On 2018-12-05 23:41, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
Marc and OSMDoudou,
I did see that in France they put their local school categories into "school:FR" tag but do you think this approach can be propogated for all other categories?
E.g. in Russian there are different types of man-made small bodies of water. Will it work to denote them as water:RU=пруд and water:RU=копанка instead of the generic water=pond?

Graeme,
When you say "you get results which differ a lot from what is locally called a "lake".", do you mean what is called a lake in Russia, 
or what is called a lake in the country you are searching in?
I mean when you search for "water=lake" tag you don't necesseraly get "озеро" (which is usually tranlated from Russian as "lake"). So unless you have "озеро" in the name tag you will never find all these objects which are called "озеро" in Russian.
Because, if you search for "lake" in Australia, you will find a lot of references to salt lakes, possibly dry, that may only actually have water in them very rarely, 
or in some cases, never in human memory! But they are still called lakes, the same as the "normal" inland bodies of water.
There is intermitent=yes tag to denote dry lakes as far as I remember.

чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 01:04, Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]>:

you're probably right, but it would nonetheless be the "child of a lesser God" compared to a "deli" in New York, USA...


On 2018-12-05 22:51, Dave F wrote:

Going off topic, but you /can/ tag it as "shop=salumeria", it will still be searchable & will be displayed on the standard map with its name & a dot.


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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Joseph Eisenberg
In reply to this post by marc marc
Re:
> “when you search for "water=lake" tag you don't necesseraly get "озеро" (which is usually tranlated from Russian as "lake").

> So unless you have "озеро" in the name tag you will never find all these objects which are called "озеро" in Russian.

Ok, so you’ve noticed that many lakes are tagged as natural=water only, correct? It is recommended to add water=lake, but because natural=water is sufficient to get a water area to render on most maps, I believe many mappers don’t bother to add the more precise tags.

Re:
> “in Russian there are different types of man-made small bodies of water.
> “Will it work to denote them as water:RU=пруд and water:RU=копанка instead of the generic water=pond?”

I don’t know Russian and Google Translate is not helping, but I would recommend tagging all small man-made ponds as natural=water plus water=pond. If пруд and копанка are two types of pond that can be clearly distinguished, then you could try to translate these words and make up a sub-category for ponds, eg pond=копанка or better pond=<копанка translated into British English>, which could be added in addition to water=pond.

(Also note that larger artificial water bodies are called reservoirs in English rather than ponds, so there is already one distinction)

Could you describe the physical difference between a пруд and a копанка?


On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 7:51 AM marc marc <[hidden email]> wrote:
Le 05. 12. 18 à 23:41, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
> I did see that in France they put their local school categories into
> "school:FR" tag but do you think this approach can be propogated for all
> other categories?

school:FR is a visible sign of a failure of the global proposal for
school reform at the global level, so no, I really wouldn't advise
to do it again.
I think it is more interesting to try to find a global criterion to make
subcategories, otherwise we end up with one osm per country instead of
one global osm
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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Joseph Eisenberg
In reply to this post by Sergio Manzi
Probably should be

name=Байкал
name:en=Lake Baikal
Etc.

But I don’t see a need to translate water=lake into Russian; lest we have to do this for every tag in every language. But I believe the Editor applications, like JOSM and ID, will provide a Russian translation for mappers.

 Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 8:07 AM Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]> wrote:

I understand the name of Lake Baikal in Russian is "Байкал", without the "озерo" attribute, but you want to be able to search for озеро as well: would the following be acceptable/valid?

water=lake
water:RU=озеро
name=Lake Baikal
name:RU=Байкал
name:FR=Lac Baïkal

On 2018-12-05 23:41, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
Marc and OSMDoudou,
I did see that in France they put their local school categories into "school:FR" tag but do you think this approach can be propogated for all other categories?
E.g. in Russian there are different types of man-made small bodies of water. Will it work to denote them as water:RU=пруд and water:RU=копанка instead of the generic water=pond?

Graeme,
When you say "you get results which differ a lot from what is locally called a "lake".", do you mean what is called a lake in Russia, 
or what is called a lake in the country you are searching in?
I mean when you search for "water=lake" tag you don't necesseraly get "озеро" (which is usually tranlated from Russian as "lake"). So unless you have "озеро" in the name tag you will never find all these objects which are called "озеро" in Russian.
Because, if you search for "lake" in Australia, you will find a lot of references to salt lakes, possibly dry, that may only actually have water in them very rarely, 
or in some cases, never in human memory! But they are still called lakes, the same as the "normal" inland bodies of water.
There is intermitent=yes tag to denote dry lakes as far as I remember.

чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 01:04, Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]>:

you're probably right, but it would nonetheless be the "child of a lesser God" compared to a "deli" in New York, USA...


On 2018-12-05 22:51, Dave F wrote:

Going off topic, but you /can/ tag it as "shop=salumeria", it will still be searchable & will be displayed on the standard map with its name & a dot.

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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Sergio Manzi

I understand your concerns and tend to agree, but how would you manage the situation where a Russian want to name the lake as it is known in his language, just "Байкал" (assuming this is the case...), but also wanting to find it with the "озеро" (lake) keyword?

On 2018-12-06 00:12, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
But I don’t see a need to translate water=lake into Russian; lest we have to do this for every tag in every language. But I believe the Editor applications, like JOSM and ID, will provide a Russian translation for mappers.

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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Daniel Koć
In reply to this post by marc marc
W dniu 05.12.2018 o 23:50, marc marc pisze:
> school:FR is a visible sign of a failure of the global proposal for
> school reform at the global level, so no, I really wouldn't advise
> to do it again.


There's also additional, practical side of the problem, related to
"tagging for rendering".

Shops are kind of safe, because whatever shop you will tag, it will
render on default map with at least violet dot and a name. The same for
natural=water - one can add more detailed tag as lake or pond, but that
is not necessary - or building=*.

But many other objects are second class in OSM. In general we have no
separate keys for gastronomy or education, they are mostly in amenity=*
namespace, which is just a big basket for everything (and it looks like
nobody quite gets what is the real meaning of "amenity", so we could
define it). I have no idea how to tag bubble tea or juice bar, even if
they are quite uncomplicated cases for drinking something other than
coffee or an alcohol. It would be more coherent if I at last knew that
all such objects belong to gastronomy=* for example.

There are also some objects between - highways or waterways have their
own key, but if you try to add highway=escape, waterway=fish_pass, it
will not be visible, even if the are quite similar to other highways or
waterways. Yet it's much easier to add new types when there is a general
category for that.


--
"Excuse me, I have some growing up to do" [P. Gabriel]



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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Joseph Eisenberg
In reply to this post by Sergio Manzi
Assuming that “озеро” is a more or less direct translation of “lake”, then the Russian use is going to have to search for “water=lake”, though I hope someone will make a translation interface for Overpass Turbo that will understand natural language queries.

You wouldn’t suggest that I add tags such as “alam=air” and “air=danau” to every lake in your country so that Indonesians can search in their own language, perhaps?

(That’s “natural=water” and “water=lake” in Bahasa Indonesia. Yes, “air” means “water”)

-Joseph

On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 8:19 AM Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]> wrote:

I understand your concerns and tend to agree, but how would you manage the situation where a Russian want to name the lake as it is known in his language, just "Байкал" (assuming this is the case...), but also wanting to find it with the "озеро" (lake) keyword?

On 2018-12-06 00:12, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
But I don’t see a need to translate water=lake into Russian; lest we have to do this for every tag in every language. But I believe the Editor applications, like JOSM and ID, will provide a Russian translation for mappers.
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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Sergio Manzi

air == water is one of those things that makes me really smile and think on how wonderfully diverse we are...

but your examples are different to what I thought. In my examples it would be:

natural:ID=air
water:ID=danau

which I understand it would be overkill and probably better served by automatic translation.

But you know, different languages/cultures have different sensibilities on how two things may be diverse (once someone told me that Eskimo people have dozens of different names for "snow"), so maybe there could be two things that for me and you are both a "pond", but for a Russian are two different things that must be distinguished...


On 2018-12-06 00:28, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
Assuming that “озеро” is a more or less direct translation of “lake”, then the Russian use is going to have to search for “water=lake”, though I hope someone will make a translation interface for Overpass Turbo that will understand natural language queries.

You wouldn’t suggest that I add tags such as “alam=air” and “air=danau” to every lake in your country so that Indonesians can search in their own language, perhaps?

(That’s “natural=water” and “water=lake” in Bahasa Indonesia. Yes, “air” means “water”)

-Joseph

On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 8:19 AM Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]> wrote:

I understand your concerns and tend to agree, but how would you manage the situation where a Russian want to name the lake as it is known in his language, just "Байкал" (assuming this is the case...), but also wanting to find it with the "озеро" (lake) keyword?

On 2018-12-06 00:12, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
But I don’t see a need to translate water=lake into Russian; lest we have to do this for every tag in every language. But I believe the Editor applications, like JOSM and ID, will provide a Russian translation for mappers.
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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Paul Allen
On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 11:43 PM Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]> wrote:
so maybe there could be two things that for me and you are both a "pond", but for a Russian are two different things that must be distinguished...

It's entirely possible.  I believe that Russian uses a single word for both apes and monkeys.  That's
not geographic, but it shows that some languages/cultures make distinctions that others do not.

The real world is messy.

--
Paul


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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Sergio Manzi

Naaahhh... just "complex" or "complicated"  (I don't know which one is better in English)...    :-)

On 2018-12-06 00:48, Paul Allen wrote:
The real world is messy.


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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Joseph Eisenberg
Re: “once someone told me that Eskimo people have dozens of different names for "snow"”

It’s a bit complex, starting with defining “Eskimo”: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskimo_words_for_snow

Many Trans-New-Guinean languages here will use only one word for all water features, eg river, lake, spring, swamp are all “ok” meaning “water”. But of course they all understand that there is a difference between a flowing river and standing water in a lake.

Fortunately English has an an unusually large vocabulary and is amenable to borrowing words, so it’s usually possible to invent a good tag for OSM purposes, based on English.
On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 8:56 AM Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]> wrote:

Naaahhh... just "complex" or "complicated"  (I don't know which one is better in English)...    :-)

On 2018-12-06 00:48, Paul Allen wrote:
The real world is messy.

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