Can OSM become a geospacial database?

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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Sergio Manzi

If this is meant to be a statement of the superiority of the English language (and hence English culture)  in face of any other language/people of world, I'd be really cautious...

As I said, I'd leave to each one to deal with its culture/sensibility and be open to the possibility to have (some) language/culture-specific tags.


On 2018-12-06 01:14, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
Fortunately English has an an unusually large vocabulary and is amenable to borrowing words, so it’s usually possible to invent a good tag for OSM purposes, based on English.

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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Joseph Eisenberg
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg
I forgot to mention that it is already possible to add “озеро” with expiation alternative name tags. For example, here in Indonesia a river might have 
waterway=river
name=Baliem
name:id=Sungai Baliem
name:en=Baliem River
alt_name:id=Kali Baliem
“Sungai” is the word for river in standard Indonesian and “Kali” is a dialectal variant.

So in Russia it might be appropriate to tag Lake Baikal like this:
natural=water
water=lake
name=Байкал
name:ru=Байкал
name:en=Lake Baikal
alt_name:ru=Байкал озеро
(Or is it “озеро Байкал“?)

WITh this tagging, a search for “озеро” and “Байкал” should work fine.

This may also help foreign visitors who might not know the Russian word for lake.

-Joseph

Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 8:28 AM Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
Assuming that “озеро” is a more or less direct translation of “lake”, then the Russian use is going to have to search for “water=lake”, though I hope someone will make a translation interface for Overpass Turbo that will understand natural language queries.

You wouldn’t suggest that I add tags such as “alam=air” and “air=danau” to every lake in your country so that Indonesians can search in their own language, perhaps?

(That’s “natural=water” and “water=lake” in Bahasa Indonesia. Yes, “air” means “water”)

-Joseph

On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 8:19 AM Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]> wrote:

I understand your concerns and tend to agree, but how would you manage the situation where a Russian want to name the lake as it is known in his language, just "Байкал" (assuming this is the case...), but also wanting to find it with the "озеро" (lake) keyword?

On 2018-12-06 00:12, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
But I don’t see a need to translate water=lake into Russian; lest we have to do this for every tag in every language. But I believe the Editor applications, like JOSM and ID, will provide a Russian translation for mappers.
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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Joseph Eisenberg
In reply to this post by Sergio Manzi
Certainly not, I just mean that it is convenient that English has many words, so it’s usually possible to find an English word or short phrase that works.

On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 9:24 AM Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]> wrote:

If this is meant to be a statement of the superiority of the English language (and hence English culture)  in face of any other language/people of world, I'd be really cautious...

As I said, I'd leave to each one to deal with its culture/sensibility and be open to the possibility to have (some) language/culture-specific tags.


On 2018-12-06 01:14, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
Fortunately English has an an unusually large vocabulary and is amenable to borrowing words, so it’s usually possible to invent a good tag for OSM purposes, based on English.
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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Sergio Manzi
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg

In this case I think the "alt_name:ru" tag solution could be a very good solution (but I leave this to our Russian friend to decide...), but why do you see that preferable to the water:ru=озеро solution?


On 2018-12-06 01:29, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
I forgot to mention that it is already possible to add “озеро” with expiation alternative name tags. For example, here in Indonesia a river might have 
waterway=river
name=Baliem
name:id=Sungai Baliem
name:en=Baliem River
alt_name:id=Kali Baliem
“Sungai” is the word for river in standard Indonesian and “Kali” is a dialectal variant.

So in Russia it might be appropriate to tag Lake Baikal like this:
natural=water
water=lake
name=Байкал
name:ru=Байкал
name:en=Lake Baikal
alt_name:ru=Байкал озеро
(Or is it “озеро Байкал“?)

WITh this tagging, a search for “озеро” and “Байкал” should work fine.

This may also help foreign visitors who might not know the Russian word for lake.

-Joseph

Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 8:28 AM Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
Assuming that “озеро” is a more or less direct translation of “lake”, then the Russian use is going to have to search for “water=lake”, though I hope someone will make a translation interface for Overpass Turbo that will understand natural language queries.

You wouldn’t suggest that I add tags such as “alam=air” and “air=danau” to every lake in your country so that Indonesians can search in their own language, perhaps?

(That’s “natural=water” and “water=lake” in Bahasa Indonesia. Yes, “air” means “water”)

-Joseph

On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 8:19 AM Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]> wrote:

I understand your concerns and tend to agree, but how would you manage the situation where a Russian want to name the lake as it is known in his language, just "Байкал" (assuming this is the case...), but also wanting to find it with the "озеро" (lake) keyword?

On 2018-12-06 00:12, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
But I don’t see a need to translate water=lake into Russian; lest we have to do this for every tag in every language. But I believe the Editor applications, like JOSM and ID, will provide a Russian translation for mappers.
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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Sergio Manzi

I mean, in a more general way and going back to the pond case,

object 1:

natural=water
water=pond
water:RU=пруд

object 2

natural=water
water=pond
water:RU=копанка

would respect both our sensibility to "see" the two objects as ponds and their sensibility to "see" the two as whatever they think they are.


On 2018-12-06 01:37, Sergio Manzi wrote:

In this case I think the "alt_name:ru" tag solution could be a very good solution (but I leave this to our Russian friend to decide...), but why do you see that preferable to the water:ru=озеро solution?


On 2018-12-06 01:29, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
I forgot to mention that it is already possible to add “озеро” with expiation alternative name tags. For example, here in Indonesia a river might have 
waterway=river
name=Baliem
name:id=Sungai Baliem
name:en=Baliem River
alt_name:id=Kali Baliem
“Sungai” is the word for river in standard Indonesian and “Kali” is a dialectal variant.

So in Russia it might be appropriate to tag Lake Baikal like this:
natural=water
water=lake
name=Байкал
name:ru=Байкал
name:en=Lake Baikal
alt_name:ru=Байкал озеро
(Or is it “озеро Байкал“?)

WITh this tagging, a search for “озеро” and “Байкал” should work fine.

This may also help foreign visitors who might not know the Russian word for lake.

-Joseph

Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 8:28 AM Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
Assuming that “озеро” is a more or less direct translation of “lake”, then the Russian use is going to have to search for “water=lake”, though I hope someone will make a translation interface for Overpass Turbo that will understand natural language queries.

You wouldn’t suggest that I add tags such as “alam=air” and “air=danau” to every lake in your country so that Indonesians can search in their own language, perhaps?

(That’s “natural=water” and “water=lake” in Bahasa Indonesia. Yes, “air” means “water”)

-Joseph

On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 8:19 AM Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]> wrote:

I understand your concerns and tend to agree, but how would you manage the situation where a Russian want to name the lake as it is known in his language, just "Байкал" (assuming this is the case...), but also wanting to find it with the "озеро" (lake) keyword?

On 2018-12-06 00:12, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
But I don’t see a need to translate water=lake into Russian; lest we have to do this for every tag in every language. But I believe the Editor applications, like JOSM and ID, will provide a Russian translation for mappers.
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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Joseph Eisenberg
It’s difficult enough that Indonesians have to understand English to use OpenStreetMap effectively, or at least have to find English-based tags that match Indonesian words. But if we encourage inventing tagging things in hundreds of languages it will become even more difficult to use this global database.

I’d suggest that the original poster, Eugene Podshivaliv, or other Russian language speakers, talk about what defines the difference between the two types of pond, “пруд” and “копанка”, and then make a new subtag for pond=*
If there is no better word we could even use pond=копанка for example, but I suspect that it could be translated.

If there is no consistent difference between the two words, then a new tag should not be used.

For example, in America we can call a waterway=stream a “brook”, “creek”, “run” and several other things. These waterways will be tagged waterway=stream or =river (depending on size) with name=“Bull Run”, =“Walker Creek”, =“Johnson’s Brook”, etc. 

We don’t use waterway=creek or waterway=run because there is no consistent difference between these. In fact in Standard British English a Creek is often a tidal channel in a salt marsh or mangroves.

OSM tags should have a consistent definition.

On the other hand, a name can contain whatever the feature is called locally, and this can include pond, lake, mere, tarn, brook, stream, creek, run, etc.

So it would be best to use one of the many existing name tags to include the local term, which is often considered part of the name. 

Eg, alt_name:ru=, loc_name=, official_name= etc, as appropriate based on local usage.

-Joseph

On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 9:47 AM Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]> wrote:

I mean, in a more general way and going back to the pond case,

object 1:

natural=water
water=pond
water:RU=пруд

object 2

natural=water
water=pond
water:RU=копанка

would respect both our sensibility to "see" the two objects as ponds and their sensibility to "see" the two as whatever they think they are.


On 2018-12-06 01:37, Sergio Manzi wrote:

In this case I think the "alt_name:ru" tag solution could be a very good solution (but I leave this to our Russian friend to decide...), but why do you see that preferable to the water:ru=озеро solution?



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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Sergio Manzi

Joseph, I take note of your opinion (but I beg to differ as I was thinking in a general/theoretical way and not specifically to the example brought on by Eugene).

Just let me clarify that in my examples the English tag were always present (there were always water=pond): that was on purpose as I never thought about features tagged by language-specific tags only.

Cheers,

Sergio


On 2018-12-06 02:16, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
It’s difficult enough that Indonesians have to understand English to use OpenStreetMap effectively, or at least have to find English-based tags that match Indonesian words. But if we encourage inventing tagging things in hundreds of languages it will become even more difficult to use this global database.

I’d suggest that the original poster, Eugene Podshivaliv, or other Russian language speakers, talk about what defines the difference between the two types of pond, “пруд” and “копанка”, and then make a new subtag for pond=*
If there is no better word we could even use pond=копанка for example, but I suspect that it could be translated.

If there is no consistent difference between the two words, then a new tag should not be used.

For example, in America we can call a waterway=stream a “brook”, “creek”, “run” and several other things. These waterways will be tagged waterway=stream or =river (depending on size) with name=“Bull Run”, =“Walker Creek”, =“Johnson’s Brook”, etc. 

We don’t use waterway=creek or waterway=run because there is no consistent difference between these. In fact in Standard British English a Creek is often a tidal channel in a salt marsh or mangroves.

OSM tags should have a consistent definition.

On the other hand, a name can contain whatever the feature is called locally, and this can include pond, lake, mere, tarn, brook, stream, creek, run, etc.

So it would be best to use one of the many existing name tags to include the local term, which is often considered part of the name. 

Eg, alt_name:ru=, loc_name=, official_name= etc, as appropriate based on local usage.

-Joseph

On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 9:47 AM Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]> wrote:

I mean, in a more general way and going back to the pond case,

object 1:

natural=water
water=pond
water:RU=пруд

object 2

natural=water
water=pond
water:RU=копанка

would respect both our sensibility to "see" the two objects as ponds and their sensibility to "see" the two as whatever they think they are.


On 2018-12-06 01:37, Sergio Manzi wrote:

In this case I think the "alt_name:ru" tag solution could be a very good solution (but I leave this to our Russian friend to decide...), but why do you see that preferable to the water:ru=озеро solution?



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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Sergio Manzi


sent from a phone

> On 5. Dec 2018, at 22:02, Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I have the same problem for some shop categories which are not part of the US/UK tradition: an Italian "salumeria" [1] is in no way similar to a US "deli" shop...


indeed there could be room to add a category or subcategory for these.
It is similar to a French charcuterie though, do they have a specific tag?

Cheers, Martin
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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Michal Fabík
In reply to this post by Sergio Manzi
On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 10:03 PM Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I have the same problem for some shop categories which are not part of the US/UK tradition: an Italian "salumeria" [1] is in no way similar to a US "deli" shop...

Hi, the wiki specifically mentions this and suggests a different way
of tagging American delis:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Ddeli

--
Michal Fabík

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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Graeme Fitzpatrick
In reply to this post by dieterdreist



On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 at 17:06, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:


sent from a phone

> On 5. Dec 2018, at 22:02, Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I have the same problem for some shop categories which are not part of the US/UK tradition: an Italian "salumeria" [1] is in no way similar to a US "deli" shop...


indeed there could be room to add a category or subcategory for these.
It is similar to a French charcuterie though, do they have a specific tag?

Would it work as
shop=deli
deli_type=salumeria / charcuterie / whatever the local name is? !

Thanks

Graeme

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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Johnparis
In reply to this post by Michal Fabík
Thanks, Michal. Following that link led me to:

shop=butcher + butcher=pork

which specifically mentions charcuterie. Presumably covers this too.

Best,

John


On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 8:18 AM Michal Fabík <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 10:03 PM Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I have the same problem for some shop categories which are not part of the US/UK tradition: an Italian "salumeria" [1] is in no way similar to a US "deli" shop...

Hi, the wiki specifically mentions this and suggests a different way
of tagging American delis:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Ddeli

--
Michal Fabík

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Salumeria(it) / charcuterie(fr) / Wurstwaren (de) WAS Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Sergio Manzi


sent from a phone

On 5. Dec 2018, at 22:08, Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]> wrote:

P.S.: ... but if I want my salumeria to show up on the map, I have to "lie for the rendering" and tag it as a shop=deli: but'I'm not happy at all...


no you don’t have to, it will rather be counterproductive, because if everybody does like this they will never reach the limit that the rendering team will consider rendering them.

A dictionary lookup suggests “cold_cut”, are there any native speakers who know what a salumeria is and if that term could work/apply ?

Cheers, Martin 


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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Eugene Podshivalov
In reply to this post by Johnparis
Let me clarify the meaning of those Russian words
"пруд" - is usually a natural but modified by a man body of water which is smaller than lake. this is usually translated as "pond"
"копанка" - is a very small body of water, escavated by an individual family for private fishing, usually of a square shape about 10x20 meters in size.

Making additional subcategories makes sense only when they are commonly recognized.
Adding language sepecific tag would work better here in my mind:
water=pond + water:ru=копанка
this way we preserve the generic categorization and let it be expanded for local purpose.

With regards to "озеро" (lake) it is even more complecated. In Russian we may call "озеро" both natural and man-modified bodies of water.
So both water=lake and water=pond can be called "озеро".
The afore-mentioned solution could solve it:
water=lake + water:ru=озеро
water=pond + water:ru=озеро

Another solution as suggested in the original post is to introduce some generic (category independent) tag like "name:prefix/postfix" or "type:<lang>" etc. for such things.

чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 04:17, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]>: 
For example, in America we can call a waterway=stream a “brook”, “creek”, “run” and several other things. These waterways will be tagged waterway=stream or =river (depending on size) with name=“Bull Run”, =“Walker Creek”, =“Johnson’s Brook”, etc. 
We don’t use waterway=creek or waterway=run because there is no consistent difference between these. In fact in Standard British English a Creek is often a tidal channel in a salt marsh or mangroves.
If you put “brook”, “creek”, “run” etc. in the name field you will get tautology in search results like: "stream Blue creek". So either all objects should have their category in the name field and the search engine will not add anything or no objects should have category in the name fields and the search engine will take the category from some other field and append it to name.
E.g. assume you have name=Blue + waterway=stream + waterway:en=creek, you search for "Blue" and get "Blue creek".

чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 10:26, Johnparis <[hidden email]>:
Thanks, Michal. Following that link led me to:

shop=butcher + butcher=pork

which specifically mentions charcuterie. Presumably covers this too.

Best,

John


On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 8:18 AM Michal Fabík <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 10:03 PM Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I have the same problem for some shop categories which are not part of the US/UK tradition: an Italian "salumeria" [1] is in no way similar to a US "deli" shop...

Hi, the wiki specifically mentions this and suggests a different way
of tagging American delis:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Ddeli

--
Michal Fabík

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Re: Salumeria(it) / charcuterie(fr) / Wurstwaren (de) WAS Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Johnparis
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
Cold cut, in American English anyway, is any sliced meat that is packaged and sold chilled. Often pork based (ham and sausages like bologna are popular) but also other meats like turkey.

shop=butcher + butcher=pork is what the wiki suggests.

I personally think of a butcher as someone who slices and packages raw meat, but the wiki is clear that shop=butcher is for any sort of meat shop.

John


On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 9:46 AM Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:


sent from a phone

On 5. Dec 2018, at 22:08, Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]> wrote:

P.S.: ... but if I want my salumeria to show up on the map, I have to "lie for the rendering" and tag it as a shop=deli: but'I'm not happy at all...


no you don’t have to, it will rather be counterproductive, because if everybody does like this they will never reach the limit that the rendering team will consider rendering them.

A dictionary lookup suggests “cold_cut”, are there any native speakers who know what a salumeria is and if that term could work/apply ?

Cheers, Martin 

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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Warin
In reply to this post by Eugene Podshivalov
On 06/12/18 20:25, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
Let me clarify the meaning of those Russian words
"пруд" - is usually a natural but modified by a man body of water which is smaller than lake. this is usually translated as "pond"
"копанка" - is a very small body of water, escavated by an individual family for private fishing, usually of a square shape about 10x20 meters in size.

Making additional subcategories makes sense only when they are commonly recognized.
Adding language sepecific tag would work better here in my mind:
water=pond + water:ru=копанка
this way we preserve the generic categorization and let it be expanded for local purpose.

With regards to "озеро" (lake) it is even more complecated. In Russian we may call "озеро" both natural and man-modified bodies of water.
So both water=lake and water=pond can be called "озеро".
The afore-mentioned solution could solve it:
water=lake + water:ru=озеро
water=pond + water:ru=озеро

Another solution as suggested in the original post is to introduce some generic (category independent) tag like "name:prefix/postfix" or "type:<lang>" etc. for such things.

Please.. not 'type'.

How about using 'description' ...
description:ru=копанка
description:ru=пруд
description:ru=озеро

???

чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 04:17, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]>: 
For example, in America we can call a waterway=stream a “brook”, “creek”, “run” and several other things. These waterways will be tagged waterway=stream or =river (depending on size) with name=“Bull Run”, =“Walker Creek”, =“Johnson’s Brook”, etc. 
We don’t use waterway=creek or waterway=run because there is no consistent difference between these. In fact in Standard British English a Creek is often a tidal channel in a salt marsh or mangroves.
If you put “brook”, “creek”, “run” etc. in the name field you will get tautology in search results like: "stream Blue creek". So either all objects should have their category in the name field and the search engine will not add anything or no objects should have category in the name fields and the search engine will take the category from some other field and append it to name.
E.g. assume you have name=Blue + waterway=stream + waterway:en=creek, you search for "Blue" and get "Blue creek".

чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 10:26, Johnparis <[hidden email]>:
Thanks, Michal. Following that link led me to:

shop=butcher + butcher=pork

which specifically mentions charcuterie. Presumably covers this too.

Best,

John


On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 8:18 AM Michal Fabík <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 10:03 PM Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I have the same problem for some shop categories which are not part of the US/UK tradition: an Italian "salumeria" [1] is in no way similar to a US "deli" shop...

Hi, the wiki specifically mentions this and suggests a different way
of tagging American delis:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Ddeli

--
Michal Fabík

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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Eugene Podshivalov
description - is used for other purposes already - it lets you describe an object in free manner which can be several sentances long.

чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 12:50, Warin <[hidden email]>:
On 06/12/18 20:25, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
Let me clarify the meaning of those Russian words
"пруд" - is usually a natural but modified by a man body of water which is smaller than lake. this is usually translated as "pond"
"копанка" - is a very small body of water, escavated by an individual family for private fishing, usually of a square shape about 10x20 meters in size.

Making additional subcategories makes sense only when they are commonly recognized.
Adding language sepecific tag would work better here in my mind:
water=pond + water:ru=копанка
this way we preserve the generic categorization and let it be expanded for local purpose.

With regards to "озеро" (lake) it is even more complecated. In Russian we may call "озеро" both natural and man-modified bodies of water.
So both water=lake and water=pond can be called "озеро".
The afore-mentioned solution could solve it:
water=lake + water:ru=озеро
water=pond + water:ru=озеро

Another solution as suggested in the original post is to introduce some generic (category independent) tag like "name:prefix/postfix" or "type:<lang>" etc. for such things.

Please.. not 'type'.

How about using 'description' ...
description:ru=копанка
description:ru=пруд
description:ru=озеро

???

чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 04:17, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]>: 
For example, in America we can call a waterway=stream a “brook”, “creek”, “run” and several other things. These waterways will be tagged waterway=stream or =river (depending on size) with name=“Bull Run”, =“Walker Creek”, =“Johnson’s Brook”, etc. 
We don’t use waterway=creek or waterway=run because there is no consistent difference between these. In fact in Standard British English a Creek is often a tidal channel in a salt marsh or mangroves.
If you put “brook”, “creek”, “run” etc. in the name field you will get tautology in search results like: "stream Blue creek". So either all objects should have their category in the name field and the search engine will not add anything or no objects should have category in the name fields and the search engine will take the category from some other field and append it to name.
E.g. assume you have name=Blue + waterway=stream + waterway:en=creek, you search for "Blue" and get "Blue creek".

чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 10:26, Johnparis <[hidden email]>:
Thanks, Michal. Following that link led me to:

shop=butcher + butcher=pork

which specifically mentions charcuterie. Presumably covers this too.

Best,

John


On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 8:18 AM Michal Fabík <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 10:03 PM Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I have the same problem for some shop categories which are not part of the US/UK tradition: an Italian "salumeria" [1] is in no way similar to a US "deli" shop...

Hi, the wiki specifically mentions this and suggests a different way
of tagging American delis:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Ddeli

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Michal Fabík

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Re: Salumeria(it) / charcuterie(fr) / Wurstwaren (de) WAS Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

AlaskaDave
In reply to this post by Johnparis
I have no idea how to tag a shop selling salumeri  but I do know that shop=butcher and butcher=pork is totally wrong for a shop that sells cold cuts. Johnparis is quite right that a butcher is someone who slices and packages raw meat. In American English, the closest approximation for a shop selling assorted cold cuts is deli. It's very unlikely that a butcher would ever be involved in a deli operation.

Dave

On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 4:29 PM Johnparis <[hidden email]> wrote:
Cold cut, in American English anyway, is any sliced meat that is packaged and sold chilled. Often pork based (ham and sausages like bologna are popular) but also other meats like turkey.

shop=butcher + butcher=pork is what the wiki suggests.

I personally think of a butcher as someone who slices and packages raw meat, but the wiki is clear that shop=butcher is for any sort of meat shop.

John


On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 9:46 AM Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:


sent from a phone

On 5. Dec 2018, at 22:08, Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]> wrote:

P.S.: ... but if I want my salumeria to show up on the map, I have to "lie for the rendering" and tag it as a shop=deli: but'I'm not happy at all...


no you don’t have to, it will rather be counterproductive, because if everybody does like this they will never reach the limit that the rendering team will consider rendering them.

A dictionary lookup suggests “cold_cut”, are there any native speakers who know what a salumeria is and if that term could work/apply ?

Cheers, Martin 

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Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com

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Re: Salumeria(it) / charcuterie(fr) / Wurstwaren (de) WAS Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Johnparis
To add to Dave's comment, what an American thinks of as a deli (or a New Yorker anyway) is quite different from what the tag shop=deli is for, according to the wiki. To its credit, the wiki makes that clear.

To a New Yorker, there are two kinds of deli. The first, like the Broadway Deli or the Second Avenue Deli, is a sit-down place where you can order a sandwich big enough to feed a family of four, with kosher pickles on the side. The wiki says that's a restaurant.

The second is a place that sells cold cuts, salads, refrigerated soft drinks, sandwiches, and probably candy. The wiki says that's a convenience shop.

A deli, according to the wiki, is what an American thinks of as a gourmet food shop. That's the classic (European) definition as well.

In hindsight, it might have been better to use shop=meat instead of shop=butcher for a store that sells meat. But that was decided long ago.

John


On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 11:09 AM Dave Swarthout <[hidden email]> wrote:
I have no idea how to tag a shop selling salumeri  but I do know that shop=butcher and butcher=pork is totally wrong for a shop that sells cold cuts. Johnparis is quite right that a butcher is someone who slices and packages raw meat. In American English, the closest approximation for a shop selling assorted cold cuts is deli. It's very unlikely that a butcher would ever be involved in a deli operation.

Dave

On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 4:29 PM Johnparis <[hidden email]> wrote:
Cold cut, in American English anyway, is any sliced meat that is packaged and sold chilled. Often pork based (ham and sausages like bologna are popular) but also other meats like turkey.

shop=butcher + butcher=pork is what the wiki suggests.

I personally think of a butcher as someone who slices and packages raw meat, but the wiki is clear that shop=butcher is for any sort of meat shop.

John


On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 9:46 AM Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:


sent from a phone

On 5. Dec 2018, at 22:08, Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]> wrote:

P.S.: ... but if I want my salumeria to show up on the map, I have to "lie for the rendering" and tag it as a shop=deli: but'I'm not happy at all...


no you don’t have to, it will rather be counterproductive, because if everybody does like this they will never reach the limit that the rendering team will consider rendering them.

A dictionary lookup suggests “cold_cut”, are there any native speakers who know what a salumeria is and if that term could work/apply ?

Cheers, Martin 

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Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

SimonPoole
In reply to this post by marc marc
Just to inject a bit of OT here

- the EN name of the Vierwaldstättersee is Lake Lucerne

- the literal translation is "lake of the four forest settlements" (only
loosely related to the notion of cantons)

In both cases naming the lake  "Lucerne" or "Vierwaldstätten" would
obviously be nonsense.

Simon

Am 05.12.2018 um 19:55 schrieb marc marc:

> Le 05. 12. 18 à 19:36, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
>> The name tag is abused very often and systematically.  
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/48.86138/2.36028
> just because a hotel's name contains the word hotel does not necessarily
> mean it is a false name. Some names are "hotêl abc" and not "abc"
>
> the same for the lakes.
> the lake near Geneva (France/Switzerland) is indeed called "Léman"
> and it is a tautology (an error) to say Lake Léman.
> But the "lake of the 4 cantons" in Switzerland is called the "lake of
> the 4 cantons". If you ask someone where "of the 4 cantons" are located,
> he don't understand what you're talking about because that not its name.
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Re: Salumeria(it) / charcuterie(fr) / Wurstwaren (de) WAS Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Johnparis
Am Do., 6. Dez. 2018 um 11:30 Uhr schrieb Johnparis <[hidden email]>:
In hindsight, it might have been better to use shop=meat instead of shop=butcher for a store that sells meat. But that was decided long ago.



I am not sure about the British situation, but a German butcher is typically a place that sells not just raw meat, but also cold cuts, sausages, all kind of "Wurst", salads (the ones with mayonaise), often also cooked meat e.g. at lunch time (usually take away or to eat standing), and maybe will prepare sandwiches. In Italy a butcher only sells meat and raw sausages for roasting (not the kind of already cooked stuff, like "Wiener Würstel"). Generally you will not get something to directly eat at an Italian butcher, you'll have to cook it first. A German butcher is quite like an Italian salumeria and butcher in one shop.

Cheers,
Martin


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