Can OSM become a geospacial database?

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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Eugene Podshivalov
Another solution is to always put category name into "name" field. "Paris" would become "City of Paris" or "Paris city".
And the renderers will need to decide how to cut the category word from some names in order not to display then on the map or another ready-to-use tag will need to be inroduce which would contain just "Paris" in it.

чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 13:52, Simon Poole <[hidden email]>:
Just to inject a bit of OT here

- the EN name of the Vierwaldstättersee is Lake Lucerne

- the literal translation is "lake of the four forest settlements" (only
loosely related to the notion of cantons)

In both cases naming the lake  "Lucerne" or "Vierwaldstätten" would
obviously be nonsense.

Simon

Am 05.12.2018 um 19:55 schrieb marc marc:
> Le 05. 12. 18 à 19:36, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
>> The name tag is abused very often and systematically. 
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/48.86138/2.36028
> just because a hotel's name contains the word hotel does not necessarily
> mean it is a false name. Some names are "hotêl abc" and not "abc"
>
> the same for the lakes.
> the lake near Geneva (France/Switzerland) is indeed called "Léman"
> and it is a tautology (an error) to say Lake Léman.
> But the "lake of the 4 cantons" in Switzerland is called the "lake of
> the 4 cantons". If you ask someone where "of the 4 cantons" are located,
> he don't understand what you're talking about because that not its name.
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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Marc Gemis
> Another solution is to always put category name into "name" field. "Paris" would become "City of Paris" or "Paris city".
> And the renderers will need to decide how to cut the category word from some names in order not to display then on the map or another ready-to-use tag will need to be inroduce which would contain just "Paris" in it.

that's the world upside down.
You have to analyse the tags we put on the object
(natural=water;water=lake or place=town, etc.). You can query all
those tags.
Many items do not have detail descriptions via the tags (e.g. just
amenity=school and no isced:level), because mappers are not
interested, do not know the detail or do not know they can add those
details.

At this moment I see no interest in something like education 2.0
(available as a rejected proposal on the wiki) which tries to get rid
of amenity=school and replace that with a number of tags that breaks
up a object representing a school in smaller characteristics. Those
pieces together formed a "school".
But as said, many mapper do not add details and the proposal would
mean they have to add detail or go with something less than school , a
place of education. I would not only put a burden on mappers, but also
on all dataconsumers that what to provide a simple search for "driving
school", because you have to specify x number of characteristics
instead of just 1.

Over time we will add more information and all schools will have e.g.
isced:levels, etc. Perhaps this will still not be enough to
differentiate between Lycée and Atheneum, but I question whether OSM
alone should be the place to put all this information.
I do not believe that OSM should be the place to explain to any
researcher what the difference is between Lycée and atheneum. Another
database, perhaps Wikidata can be used for that. When OSM and Wikidata
are linked in one way or another you could query the combination of
databases and group schools in any way you want.

m.

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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Sergio Manzi
In reply to this post by Eugene Podshivalov

That's (quite obviously I would say...) not a solution: all it does is to move the problem from one place to another: how would you make up the name for one of yours пруд or копанка in English?


On 2018-12-06 12:51, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
Another solution is to always put category name into "name" field. "Paris" would become "City of Paris" or "Paris city".
And the renderers will need to decide how to cut the category word from some names in order not to display then on the map or another ready-to-use tag will need to be inroduce which would contain just "Paris" in it.

чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 13:52, Simon Poole <[hidden email]>:
Just to inject a bit of OT here

- the EN name of the Vierwaldstättersee is Lake Lucerne

- the literal translation is "lake of the four forest settlements" (only
loosely related to the notion of cantons)

In both cases naming the lake  "Lucerne" or "Vierwaldstätten" would
obviously be nonsense.

Simon

Am 05.12.2018 um 19:55 schrieb marc marc:
> Le 05. 12. 18 à 19:36, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
>> The name tag is abused very often and systematically. 
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/48.86138/2.36028
> just because a hotel's name contains the word hotel does not necessarily
> mean it is a false name. Some names are "hotêl abc" and not "abc"
>
> the same for the lakes.
> the lake near Geneva (France/Switzerland) is indeed called "Léman"
> and it is a tautology (an error) to say Lake Léman.
> But the "lake of the 4 cantons" in Switzerland is called the "lake of
> the 4 cantons". If you ask someone where "of the 4 cantons" are located,
> he don't understand what you're talking about because that not its name.
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Eugene Podshivalov
I am pursonally not in favour of the solution with category names in the "name" but have mentioned it because it is currently used in every country for highway=residential ways.

чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 15:08, Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]>:

That's (quite obviously I would say...) not a solution: all it does is to move the problem from one place to another: how would you make up the name for one of yours пруд or копанка in English?


On 2018-12-06 12:51, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
Another solution is to always put category name into "name" field. "Paris" would become "City of Paris" or "Paris city".
And the renderers will need to decide how to cut the category word from some names in order not to display then on the map or another ready-to-use tag will need to be inroduce which would contain just "Paris" in it.

чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 13:52, Simon Poole <[hidden email]>:
Just to inject a bit of OT here

- the EN name of the Vierwaldstättersee is Lake Lucerne

- the literal translation is "lake of the four forest settlements" (only
loosely related to the notion of cantons)

In both cases naming the lake  "Lucerne" or "Vierwaldstätten" would
obviously be nonsense.

Simon

Am 05.12.2018 um 19:55 schrieb marc marc:
> Le 05. 12. 18 à 19:36, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
>> The name tag is abused very often and systematically. 
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/48.86138/2.36028
> just because a hotel's name contains the word hotel does not necessarily
> mean it is a false name. Some names are "hotêl abc" and not "abc"
>
> the same for the lakes.
> the lake near Geneva (France/Switzerland) is indeed called "Léman"
> and it is a tautology (an error) to say Lake Léman.
> But the "lake of the 4 cantons" in Switzerland is called the "lake of
> the 4 cantons". If you ask someone where "of the 4 cantons" are located,
> he don't understand what you're talking about because that not its name.
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Eugene Podshivalov
Sergio,
how would you make up the name for one of yours пруд or копанка in English?  
Let me please answer your question with a question
How to you translate your French highway=residential's into in English like "Cité Pasteur", "Rue André Bru", "Voie des Roses" etc?

чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 15:17, Eugene Podshivalov <[hidden email]>:
I am pursonally not in favour of the solution with category names in the "name" but have mentioned it because it is currently used in every country for highway=residential ways.

чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 15:08, Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]>:

That's (quite obviously I would say...) not a solution: all it does is to move the problem from one place to another: how would you make up the name for one of yours пруд or копанка in English?


On 2018-12-06 12:51, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
Another solution is to always put category name into "name" field. "Paris" would become "City of Paris" or "Paris city".
And the renderers will need to decide how to cut the category word from some names in order not to display then on the map or another ready-to-use tag will need to be inroduce which would contain just "Paris" in it.

чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 13:52, Simon Poole <[hidden email]>:
Just to inject a bit of OT here

- the EN name of the Vierwaldstättersee is Lake Lucerne

- the literal translation is "lake of the four forest settlements" (only
loosely related to the notion of cantons)

In both cases naming the lake  "Lucerne" or "Vierwaldstätten" would
obviously be nonsense.

Simon

Am 05.12.2018 um 19:55 schrieb marc marc:
> Le 05. 12. 18 à 19:36, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
>> The name tag is abused very often and systematically. 
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/48.86138/2.36028
> just because a hotel's name contains the word hotel does not necessarily
> mean it is a false name. Some names are "hotêl abc" and not "abc"
>
> the same for the lakes.
> the lake near Geneva (France/Switzerland) is indeed called "Léman"
> and it is a tautology (an error) to say Lake Léman.
> But the "lake of the 4 cantons" in Switzerland is called the "lake of
> the 4 cantons". If you ask someone where "of the 4 cantons" are located,
> he don't understand what you're talking about because that not its name.
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Eugene Podshivalov
And how would you translate into French such American waterway=stream's as  “Bull Run”, “Walker Creek”, “Johnson’s Brook”, etc. 

чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 15:25, Eugene Podshivalov <[hidden email]>:
Sergio,
how would you make up the name for one of yours пруд or копанка in English?  
Let me please answer your question with a question
How to you translate your French highway=residential's into in English like "Cité Pasteur", "Rue André Bru", "Voie des Roses" etc?

чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 15:17, Eugene Podshivalov <[hidden email]>:
I am pursonally not in favour of the solution with category names in the "name" but have mentioned it because it is currently used in every country for highway=residential ways.

чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 15:08, Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]>:

That's (quite obviously I would say...) not a solution: all it does is to move the problem from one place to another: how would you make up the name for one of yours пруд or копанка in English?


On 2018-12-06 12:51, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
Another solution is to always put category name into "name" field. "Paris" would become "City of Paris" or "Paris city".
And the renderers will need to decide how to cut the category word from some names in order not to display then on the map or another ready-to-use tag will need to be inroduce which would contain just "Paris" in it.

чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 13:52, Simon Poole <[hidden email]>:
Just to inject a bit of OT here

- the EN name of the Vierwaldstättersee is Lake Lucerne

- the literal translation is "lake of the four forest settlements" (only
loosely related to the notion of cantons)

In both cases naming the lake  "Lucerne" or "Vierwaldstätten" would
obviously be nonsense.

Simon

Am 05.12.2018 um 19:55 schrieb marc marc:
> Le 05. 12. 18 à 19:36, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
>> The name tag is abused very often and systematically. 
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/48.86138/2.36028
> just because a hotel's name contains the word hotel does not necessarily
> mean it is a false name. Some names are "hotêl abc" and not "abc"
>
> the same for the lakes.
> the lake near Geneva (France/Switzerland) is indeed called "Léman"
> and it is a tautology (an error) to say Lake Léman.
> But the "lake of the 4 cantons" in Switzerland is called the "lake of
> the 4 cantons". If you ask someone where "of the 4 cantons" are located,
> he don't understand what you're talking about because that not its name.
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Eugene Podshivalov


sent from a phone

> On 6. Dec 2018, at 13:17, Eugene Podshivalov <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I am pursonally not in favour of the solution with category names in the "name" but have mentioned it because it is currently used in every country for highway=residential ways.


there is no way we could/would change the definition of the name tag.
It is for the name, whether that comprises a “category name” or not depends on the culture/language and instance, whether or not the category is part of the name (Deutschland, United Kingdom, United States of America, to name a few obvious, Bodensee, Lake Erie, Lago di Como, New York City, Feldberg, Mont Blanc, ....)  has to be decided with solid knowledge of the language and context, on an individual basis.


Cheers, Martin
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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Sergio Manzi
In reply to this post by Eugene Podshivalov

Eugene, those are "proper names" and as such they are untranslatable, and that's exactly why to put a category name within a proper name is "a very bad idea (tm)". But if a proper name happens to have a category has part of its proper name, just leave it alone... no problem...

Cheers!

Sergio


On 2018-12-06 13:30, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
And how would you translate into French such American waterway=stream's as  “Bull Run”, “Walker Creek”, “Johnson’s Brook”, etc. 

чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 15:25, Eugene Podshivalov <[hidden email]>:
Sergio,
how would you make up the name for one of yours пруд or копанка in English?  
Let me please answer your question with a question
How to you translate your French highway=residential's into in English like "Cité Pasteur", "Rue André Bru", "Voie des Roses" etc?

чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 15:17, Eugene Podshivalov <[hidden email]>:
I am pursonally not in favour of the solution with category names in the "name" but have mentioned it because it is currently used in every country for highway=residential ways.

чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 15:08, Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]>:

That's (quite obviously I would say...) not a solution: all it does is to move the problem from one place to another: how would you make up the name for one of yours пруд or копанка in English?


On 2018-12-06 12:51, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
Another solution is to always put category name into "name" field. "Paris" would become "City of Paris" or "Paris city".
And the renderers will need to decide how to cut the category word from some names in order not to display then on the map or another ready-to-use tag will need to be inroduce which would contain just "Paris" in it.

чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 13:52, Simon Poole <[hidden email]>:
Just to inject a bit of OT here

- the EN name of the Vierwaldstättersee is Lake Lucerne

- the literal translation is "lake of the four forest settlements" (only
loosely related to the notion of cantons)

In both cases naming the lake  "Lucerne" or "Vierwaldstätten" would
obviously be nonsense.

Simon

Am 05.12.2018 um 19:55 schrieb marc marc:
> Le 05. 12. 18 à 19:36, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
>> The name tag is abused very often and systematically. 
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/48.86138/2.36028
> just because a hotel's name contains the word hotel does not necessarily
> mean it is a false name. Some names are "hotêl abc" and not "abc"
>
> the same for the lakes.
> the lake near Geneva (France/Switzerland) is indeed called "Léman"
> and it is a tautology (an error) to say Lake Léman.
> But the "lake of the 4 cantons" in Switzerland is called the "lake of
> the 4 cantons". If you ask someone where "of the 4 cantons" are located,
> he don't understand what you're talking about because that not its name.
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

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Re: Salumeria(it) / charcuterie(fr) / Wurstwaren (de) WAS Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Sergio Manzi
In reply to this post by dieterdreist

Martin,

I see you have "spawned" my comment from another thread into this thread.

I take for granted your good willingness in doing that, but you'll forgive me if I will not partecipate to this specific discussion.

My original intention was not to find an acceptable English name for a salumeria, but to underline how the details of the world diversity and the sensibilities, traditions and cultures of different peoples can hardly be constrained within terms taken from a single language (independently on how "flexible" one can percieve it).

Cheers,

Sergio

P.S.: I'm quite sure a salmeria, a charcuterie and a wurstwaren are different "things" although responding to the same basic need (to have a place where to buy something good to eat!): salamerie have centuries of history in Italy (probably a millennium or more) and I'm not willng to dilute their history with the history of different similar places.


On 2018-12-06 09:44, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


sent from a phone

On 5. Dec 2018, at 22:08, Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]> wrote:

P.S.: ... but if I want my salumeria to show up on the map, I have to "lie for the rendering" and tag it as a shop=deli: but'I'm not happy at all...


no you don’t have to, it will rather be counterproductive, because if everybody does like this they will never reach the limit that the rendering team will consider rendering them.

A dictionary lookup suggests “cold_cut”, are there any native speakers who know what a salumeria is and if that term could work/apply ?

Cheers, Martin 


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Re: Salumeria(it) / charcuterie(fr) / Wurstwaren (de) WAS Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Sergio Manzi

OK, sorry, a lot of typos... it's all salumeria (singular) and salumerie (plural)!

On 2018-12-06 13:39, Sergio Manzi wrote:

Martin,

I see you have "spawned" my comment from another thread into this thread.

I take for granted your good willingness in doing that, but you'll forgive me if I will not partecipate to this specific discussion.

My original intention was not to find an acceptable English name for a salumeria, but to underline how the details of the world diversity and the sensibilities, traditions and cultures of different peoples can hardly be constrained within terms taken from a single language (independently on how "flexible" one can percieve it).

Cheers,

Sergio

P.S.: I'm quite sure a salmeria, a charcuterie and a wurstwaren are different "things" although responding to the same basic need (to have a place where to buy something good to eat!): salamerie have centuries of history in Italy (probably a millennium or more) and I'm not willng to dilute their history with the history of different similar places.


On 2018-12-06 09:44, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


sent from a phone

On 5. Dec 2018, at 22:08, Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]> wrote:

P.S.: ... but if I want my salumeria to show up on the map, I have to "lie for the rendering" and tag it as a shop=deli: but'I'm not happy at all...


no you don’t have to, it will rather be counterproductive, because if everybody does like this they will never reach the limit that the rendering team will consider rendering them.

A dictionary lookup suggests “cold_cut”, are there any native speakers who know what a salumeria is and if that term could work/apply ?

Cheers, Martin 


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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Eugene Podshivalov


sent from a phone

> On 6. Dec 2018, at 13:30, Eugene Podshivalov <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> And how would you translate into French such American waterway=stream's as  “Bull Run”, “Walker Creek”, “Johnson’s Brook”, etc.


we do not translate anything, we do add names in different languages, but these aren’t translations, they are names.

Cheers, Martin
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Re: Salumeria(it) / charcuterie(fr) / Wurstwaren (de) WAS Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Sergio Manzi


sent from a phone

On 6. Dec 2018, at 13:39, Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]> wrote:

Martin,

I see you have "spawned" my comment from another thread into this thread.

I take for granted your good willingness in doing that, but you'll forgive me if I will not partecipate to this specific discussion.



this is not a discussion between me and you, I have taken your comment as an opportunity to discuss tagging of the salumerie, and as they might be similar to French charcuteries, and possibly in other countries, I am doing it on the international tagging ML. You are free to participate or refrain from doing so, but let’s keep the noise at a reasonable level and refrain from telling everyone if we decide not to participate.

Changing the subject when moving to a different topic out of an existing thread is encouraged on this list.

Cheers, Martin 

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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Paul Allen
In reply to this post by Sergio Manzi
On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 12:39 PM Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]> wrote:

Eugene, those are "proper names" and as such they are untranslatable, and that's exactly why to put a category name within a proper name is "a very bad idea (tm)". But if a proper name happens to have a category has part of its proper name, just leave it alone... no problem...


+99

Very often the name of an object is also descriptive.  Probably because it starts out being
purely descriptive and ends up being the proper name of the object.  There is a bridge in Paris
which is called "Pont Neuf" (New Bridge) - it's the oldest standing bridge in Paris but, at the
time it acquired that name, it was the newest.  There are a gazillion (rough estimate) farmhouses
in Wales called "Penrallt" (top of the wood).  Etc., etc.  Those terms describe those objects but
they're also the names of those objects.

Don't use an object's description as its name unless that description actually IS the name.  Some
people know only the first eight words of that instruction and are unaware of the last seven words.

--
Paul


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Re: Salumeria(it) / charcuterie(fr) / Wurstwaren (de) WAS Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Sergio Manzi
In reply to this post by dieterdreist

I understand this is not a discussion between you and me, but as you cited me, I felt obliged to explain you why I'm not (much) interested in the specific, just as an act of courtesy toward you (but apperently you misunderstood...)

take care,

Sergio


On 2018-12-06 14:02, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

this is not a discussion between me and you, I have taken your comment as an opportunity to discuss tagging of the salumerie, and as they might be similar to French charcuteries, and possibly in other countries, I am doing it on the international tagging ML. You are free to participate or refrain from doing so, but let’s keep the noise at a reasonable level and refrain from telling everyone if we decide not to participate.

Changing the subject when moving to a different topic out of an existing thread is encouraged on this list.

Cheers, Martin

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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Sergio Manzi
In reply to this post by dieterdreist

That's what I'm often hearing, and not only from you, but have a look at wiki page about the craft key [1], as in there I can read:

"You are free to use values that match your needs as a mapper and your local or country environment, culture and language. If using the English language, please use the singular form, e.g. carpenter not carpenters or carpenter's."

From the above I get:

  1. A recognition that sometimes English terms are not fit to convey a culture-specific concept.
  2. I can use terms that are not part of the English language if they are needed to convey such concepts.

Have a nice day,

Sergio

[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:craft


On 2018-12-06 13:53, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
we do not translate anything, we do add names in different languages, but these aren’t translations, they are names.

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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Kevin Kenny-3
On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 9:31 AM Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]> wrote:

That's what I'm often hearing, and not only from you, but have a look at wiki page about the craft key [1], as in there I can read:

"You are free to use values that match your needs as a mapper and your local or country environment, culture and language. If using the English language, please use the singular form, e.g. carpenter not carpenters or carpenter's."

From the above I get:

  1. A recognition that sometimes English terms are not fit to convey a culture-specific concept.
  2. I can use terms that are not part of the English language if they are needed to convey such concepts.
Right. But please don't resort to local-language words for terms that do have a satisfactory UK-English equivalent. Don't use craft=menuiscier in French when 'carpenter' is a serviceable English word. And please wikify your choices. 

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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Sergio Manzi

Totally agreed! Thanks!

Now, do you see anything wrong in an attempt of being "cross-cultuarlly correct" and, just as an example,  tag a feature as:

shop=deli
shop:it=salumeria

?

That, I think, would have value added for both "an American in Rome", trying to find a place where to buy food, and "an Italian in Rome" trying to find a proper salumeria...


On 2018-12-06 15:51, Kevin Kenny wrote:
On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 9:31 AM Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]> wrote:

That's what I'm often hearing, and not only from you, but have a look at wiki page about the craft key [1], as in there I can read:

"You are free to use values that match your needs as a mapper and your local or country environment, culture and language. If using the English language, please use the singular form, e.g. carpenter not carpenters or carpenter's."

From the above I get:

  1. A recognition that sometimes English terms are not fit to convey a culture-specific concept.
  2. I can use terms that are not part of the English language if they are needed to convey such concepts.
Right. But please don't resort to local-language words for terms that do have a satisfactory UK-English equivalent. Don't use craft=menuiscier in French when 'carpenter' is a serviceable English word. And please wikify your choices.

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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Kevin Kenny-3
Am Do., 6. Dez. 2018 um 15:52 Uhr schrieb Kevin Kenny <[hidden email]>:

Right. But please don't resort to local-language words for terms that do have a satisfactory UK-English equivalent. Don't use craft=menuiscier in French when 'carpenter' is a serviceable English word. And please wikify your choices. 



great you name carpenters, because there were actually some problems in the past classifying people working with wood.
Can you explain the difference between a framer, a carpenter, a cabinet maker, a joiner, a finish carpenter, a timberman, a ring builder, a jerry man, a binder?

Some of them might be synonyms, some reflect regional differences (e.g. AE vs. BE)?

Does the term "carpenter" imply someone will do structural wood work, like roofs, walls, stairs, ships or is it more generic?
Which one is a specialist for fine, precise wood work like furniture?
You could probably ask someone specialized in structural work to do finishings, just that the quality will typically not be what you get from someone specialized in interiors or furniture.

There is some documentation in the wiki, but there is also overlap in definitions, this is currently on the craft map features page:
* a carpenter is defined to make everything: "A workplace or office of carpenters that work with timber to construct, install and maintain buildings, furniture, and other objects.")
* cabinetmaker: A person who makes fine wooden furniture
* cooper: A person or company that manufacture of containers and vessels mainly made of wood.
* joiner: An artisan who builds things by joining pieces of wood, particularly furniture or ornamental work.


btw, just saw that roofer is defined as: "A workplace or office of a tradesman who is specialized in roof construction.", IMHO this should be more specific (if I am not misguided) by pointing out it isn't about the structure but about the cover, right?

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Xavier-2
On Thu, Dec 06, 2018 at 04:44:43PM +0100, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>btw, just saw that roofer is defined as: "A workplace or office of a
>tradesman who is specialized in roof construction.", IMHO this should be
>more specific (if I am not misguided) by pointing out it isn't about the
>structure but about the cover, right?

At least in the US, yes.  The term "roofer" is typically used (in the
US) to refer to tradesman who install roof coverings (i.e., roof
shingles, etc.) onto an already constructed roof sub-structure.

They ("roofers") also sometimes do small repair work (replace some
rotten roof boards, etc.) while installing a new roof cover on an
existing building, but they typically are not the builders of the full
roof substructure.

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Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Eugene Podshivalov
Let's look into some other examples.
Settlements are supposed to be defined with place=city/town/village/hamlet/isolated_dwelling tags. The value depends on the size of the settlement.
But in Belarus for example we call our settlements "город" (can be city or town), "городской посёлок" (can be town or village), "посёлок"/"деревня"/"хутор" (can be village or hamlet or isolated_dwelling).
When people use the maps created form OSM database they don't care about the generic OSM categorization of settlements. They need their local category names.
So what tag should be put those local category names in?

чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 18:52, Xavier <[hidden email]>:
On Thu, Dec 06, 2018 at 04:44:43PM +0100, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>btw, just saw that roofer is defined as: "A workplace or office of a
>tradesman who is specialized in roof construction.", IMHO this should be
>more specific (if I am not misguided) by pointing out it isn't about the
>structure but about the cover, right?

At least in the US, yes.  The term "roofer" is typically used (in the
US) to refer to tradesman who install roof coverings (i.e., roof
shingles, etc.) onto an already constructed roof sub-structure.

They ("roofers") also sometimes do small repair work (replace some
rotten roof boards, etc.) while installing a new roof cover on an
existing building, but they typically are not the builders of the full
roof substructure.

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