Chain Store Cleanup

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
5 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Chain Store Cleanup

Rob Nickerson

>I think eventually chains will see the >light, and publish their locations in an >open format compatible manner. At >that point a quick cross check with >OSM would clear up most of the >issues.
>

Agree. Has anyone actually asked the retail chains?

I haven't because I don't want to suggest that we will do anything with the data until I know we have the right tools in place to match entries in their database and in OSM. I'm sure it's an easy task but I don't know how to do that. I'd also like to see community support in place so that we can merge in some of their attributes (phone number, opening hours, etc). This could be a bigger challenge!

Regards,
Rob


_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Chain Store Cleanup

Johan C

2015-05-01 13:36 GMT+02:00 Rob Nickerson <[hidden email]>:

>I think eventually chains will see the >light, and publish their locations in an >open format compatible manner. At >that point a quick cross check with >OSM would clear up most of the >issues.
>

Agree. Has anyone actually asked the retail chains?

That's a good question Rob. 'Seeing the light' possibly means maintaining your own platform/apps as a business. I did ask McDonald's back in 2012, I got the following reply: "We put focus on optimizing this McDonald's app and want to keep the management of the associated database as efficiently as possible. Keeping databases for others makes that ambition tricky. With the McDonald's app we also communicate information about McDonald's products, actions, nutrition values, different locations and opening times of the restaurants and the McDrives. Also, restaurant renovations and therefore temporary adjusted opening hours are regularly incorporated into an update. For the above reasons, we will not consent to the inclusion of McDonald's restaurants in Openstreetmap."

Of course I was disappointed, because I still believe OSM can be the best platform. On the other hand, McDonald's has a point. Breaking the answer down: 1) It's not efficient trying to maintain more than one database 2) that single database serves more purposes than just geocoding 3) Other databases do not have the same quality.

So, how does that compare to one of the better POI databases, Google Maps? Having a quick look at GM shows that McDonald's despite copyright allows GM to copy opening hours into the GM database. But maybe they have an arrangement to copy (changing) opening hours on the fly in order to prevent dissatified customers standing in front of a closed door. Since McDonald's does have an incentive to maintain their own database (customer focus), quality of McDonald's data in OSM will always be lower. For me it means that I do map the McDonald's POI's based on ground thruth along with the url to the McDonald's website, but not the opening hours. Reaason for that is that I often see them from the road, but don't visit them daily to have a look at the opening hours.

I'm looking forward to other experiences, I sure hope that I'm not the only mapper who has had contact with McDonald's

Cheers, Johan

I haven't because I don't want to suggest that we will do anything with the data until I know we have the right tools in place to match entries in their database and in OSM. I'm sure it's an easy task but I don't know how to do that. I'd also like to see community support in place so that we can merge in some of their attributes (phone number, opening hours, etc). This could be a bigger challenge!

Regards,
Rob


_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk



_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Chain Store Cleanup

brycenesbitt


On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 12:26 PM, Johan C <[hidden email]> wrote:
That's a good question Rob. 'Seeing the light' possibly means maintaining your own platform/apps as a business. I did ask McDonald's back in 2012, I got the following reply: "We put focus on optimizing this McDonald's app and want to keep the management of the associated database as efficiently as possible. Keeping databases for others makes that ambition tricky. With the McDonald's app we also communicate information about McDonald's products, actions, nutrition values, different locations and opening times of the restaurants and the McDrives. Also, restaurant renovations and therefore temporary adjusted opening hours are regularly incorporated into an update. For the above reasons, we will not consent to the inclusion of McDonald's restaurants in Openstreetmap."

They also want the eyeballs on their website, not "ours".
I think they understood the request well.

Perhaps the right approach is to ask for limited access to specific fields.  The position of the restaurant showing up a a benefit to McD stockholders.
The opening hours might be seen as competition for eyeballs.


Beyond that it's unclear if querying for existence is a violation of any sort. In other words if I ping
https://ajax.bigchainstore.com?storeid=2323&format=json  and it comes up empty, I learned something.  But did I also violate their terms of service?




_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Chain Store Cleanup

Rob Nickerson
In reply to this post by Johan C
On 1 May 2015 at 20:26, Johan C <[hidden email]> wrote:

2015-05-01 13:36 GMT+02:00 Rob Nickerson <[hidden email]>:

>I think eventually chains will see the >light, and publish their locations in an >open format compatible manner. At >that point a quick cross check with >OSM would clear up most of the >issues.
>

Agree. Has anyone actually asked the retail chains?

That's a good question Rob. 'Seeing the light' possibly means maintaining your own platform/apps as a business. I did ask McDonald's back in 2012, I got the following reply: "We put focus on optimizing this McDonald's app and want to keep the management of the associated database as efficiently as possible. Keeping databases for others makes that ambition tricky. With the McDonald's app we also communicate information about McDonald's products, actions, nutrition values, different locations and opening times of the restaurants and the McDrives. Also, restaurant renovations and therefore temporary adjusted opening hours are regularly incorporated into an update. For the above reasons, we will not consent to the inclusion of McDonald's restaurants in Openstreetmap."

Of course I was disappointed, because I still believe OSM can be the best platform. On the other hand, McDonald's has a point. Breaking the answer down: 1) It's not efficient trying to maintain more than one database 2) that single database serves more purposes than just geocoding 3) Other databases do not have the same quality.

Glad to hear that you have had a go at contacting one of these big chains. Their response is disappointing but I think we need to be looking at some potential solutions and better explaining the benefits of being on OpenStreetMap to them.

Tackling the benefits of being in OSM first. I would point out that because OpenStreetMap provides a rich database of geographic features there are many apps that use OpenStreetMap's data. For example Maps.Me uses OSM in it's SatNav style app for iOS and Android. Their app also displays clickable points of interest including fast food outlets. Right now OpenStreetMap includes some McDonald's stores (as contributed by our community) but may be missing some. If McDonald's was to provide locations of all stores then we could update our map data and as such all apps that use our data would pick up these additional stores when they next update.

As for tackling some of their concerns then first the opening hours concern. We could offer to link to their website for each store via opening_hours:url=http://bigchainstore.com?storeid=12345 . As for keeping the database up to date this is where we would benefit from more conflation tools. For example it would be great if we had a tool that compares BigChainStores data dump month 1 against BigChainStores data dump month 2 (should be easier as most entries will be the same). We would also want a tool that compares BigChainStores data dump against what's already in OSM. Currently there is no user firendly tool to do this (you end up back in traditional GIS solutions which tend to go over my head).

I think we can get there but we'd need someone to help in regards to the comparison tools.

Best,
Rob



_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Chain Store Cleanup

Pmailkeey .
Approaching bigchains.com and asking them stupid questions is only going to downgrade the quality of OSM in their eyes. Consequently, it'd be better for OSM not to contact them - unless you can offer them 'something'. Google (maps) is a business - so has a significant advantage. As for variable data like opening hours, phone number etc. (even postal address is no use to them) their building needs to appear on the map with a one-click link to the outlet's website that shows phone number and opening hours. Feel free to go back to McD when you can offer them a flashing 'neon' building on the map and when the building is 'dim' replace it with their logo M. You just need to figure out what you'd charge them for this advertising. If you don't charge them they'll think it's a pointless gimmick and show no interest.

On 1 May 2015 at 21:44, Rob Nickerson <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 1 May 2015 at 20:26, Johan C <[hidden email]> wrote:

2015-05-01 13:36 GMT+02:00 Rob Nickerson <[hidden email]>:

>I think eventually chains will see the >light, and publish their locations in an >open format compatible manner. At >that point a quick cross check with >OSM would clear up most of the >issues.
>

Agree. Has anyone actually asked the retail chains?

That's a good question Rob. 'Seeing the light' possibly means maintaining your own platform/apps as a business. I did ask McDonald's back in 2012, I got the following reply: "We put focus on optimizing this McDonald's app and want to keep the management of the associated database as efficiently as possible. Keeping databases for others makes that ambition tricky. With the McDonald's app we also communicate information about McDonald's products, actions, nutrition values, different locations and opening times of the restaurants and the McDrives. Also, restaurant renovations and therefore temporary adjusted opening hours are regularly incorporated into an update. For the above reasons, we will not consent to the inclusion of McDonald's restaurants in Openstreetmap."

Of course I was disappointed, because I still believe OSM can be the best platform. On the other hand, McDonald's has a point. Breaking the answer down: 1) It's not efficient trying to maintain more than one database 2) that single database serves more purposes than just geocoding 3) Other databases do not have the same quality.

Glad to hear that you have had a go at contacting one of these big chains. Their response is disappointing but I think we need to be looking at some potential solutions and better explaining the benefits of being on OpenStreetMap to them.

Tackling the benefits of being in OSM first. I would point out that because OpenStreetMap provides a rich database of geographic features there are many apps that use OpenStreetMap's data. For example Maps.Me uses OSM in it's SatNav style app for iOS and Android. Their app also displays clickable points of interest including fast food outlets. Right now OpenStreetMap includes some McDonald's stores (as contributed by our community) but may be missing some. If McDonald's was to provide locations of all stores then we could update our map data and as such all apps that use our data would pick up these additional stores when they next update.

As for tackling some of their concerns then first the opening hours concern. We could offer to link to their website for each store via opening_hours:url=http://bigchainstore.com?storeid=12345 . As for keeping the database up to date this is where we would benefit from more conflation tools. For example it would be great if we had a tool that compares BigChainStores data dump month 1 against BigChainStores data dump month 2 (should be easier as most entries will be the same). We would also want a tool that compares BigChainStores data dump against what's already in OSM. Currently there is no user firendly tool to do this (you end up back in traditional GIS solutions which tend to go over my head).

I think we can get there but we'd need someone to help in regards to the comparison tools.

Best,
Rob



_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk




--
Mike.
@millomweb - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland
via the area's premier website - 

currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property & pets


_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk