Charging stations: socket:<type>:output -- which format for the value?

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Charging stations: socket:<type>:output -- which format for the value?

Daniel Korn
Hello,

the OSM-Wiki-page on charging stations [1] defines the tag
socket:<type>:output=watt

wheres the examples contain values like "22 kW".

What would the preferred format be? "22000" or "22 kW"? I would like to
clearify this on the wiki-page.

Personally I would prefer "22000" as it fits with other OSM-values (no
units).

Cheers,
dktue

[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dcharging_station

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Re: Charging stations: socket:<type>:output -- which format for the value?

dieterdreist


Am Mo., 29. Juli 2019 um 12:39 Uhr schrieb dktue <[hidden email]>:
Hello,

the OSM-Wiki-page on charging stations [1] defines the tag
socket:<type>:output=watt

wheres the examples contain values like "22 kW".

What would the preferred format be? "22000" or "22 kW"? I would like to
clearify this on the wiki-page.

Personally I would prefer "22000" as it fits with other OSM-values (no
units).


generally people are encouraged to add units for disambiguation reasons and to use locally used units and preferably SI units.

For power, no default units are currently specified on this page:

And it doesn't even mention horsepower for power, a unit that for many people may be more evocative than Watt (everybody can imagine 30 horses, but how much are 22 kW?) ;-)

Personally, if we were to set up a default for power units, I would prefer kW, because if we'd use Watt we will get very high numbers for MW (e.g. needed for power generators). Presuming, we would have the same standard unit for all things power, and not different defaults for socket and say power stations.

Cheers,
Martin


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Re: Charging stations: socket:<type>:output -- which format for the value?

Daniel Korn
I'd vote for kW aswell (and a value of "22" then), since we're not always using SI and not always base-unit-values (see kilometers per hour).

Am 29.07.2019 um 12:53 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:


Am Mo., 29. Juli 2019 um 12:39 Uhr schrieb dktue <[hidden email]>:
Hello,

the OSM-Wiki-page on charging stations [1] defines the tag
socket:<type>:output=watt

wheres the examples contain values like "22 kW".

What would the preferred format be? "22000" or "22 kW"? I would like to
clearify this on the wiki-page.

Personally I would prefer "22000" as it fits with other OSM-values (no
units).


generally people are encouraged to add units for disambiguation reasons and to use locally used units and preferably SI units.

For power, no default units are currently specified on this page:

And it doesn't even mention horsepower for power, a unit that for many people may be more evocative than Watt (everybody can imagine 30 horses, but how much are 22 kW?) ;-)

Personally, if we were to set up a default for power units, I would prefer kW, because if we'd use Watt we will get very high numbers for MW (e.g. needed for power generators). Presuming, we would have the same standard unit for all things power, and not different defaults for socket and say power stations.

Cheers,
Martin


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Re: Charging stations: socket:<type>:output -- which format for the value?

Warin
The use of 'multipliers' is common ..

As well as kilometers per hour (100 kmh would be come 100,000 mh without the multiplier) there is mass kg and tonnes .. (10kg would be come 10,000 g with the multiplier) , elevation in meters and kilometers etc.

Preference should be for what is commonly used for that particular amount and feature. 

I would leave this alone - let the mapper use that thing that should be applied - common sense.

On 29/07/19 21:00, dktue wrote:
I'd vote for kW aswell (and a value of "22" then), since we're not always using SI and not always base-unit-values (see kilometers per hour).

Am 29.07.2019 um 12:53 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:


Am Mo., 29. Juli 2019 um 12:39 Uhr schrieb dktue <[hidden email]>:
Hello,

the OSM-Wiki-page on charging stations [1] defines the tag
socket:<type>:output=watt

wheres the examples contain values like "22 kW".

What would the preferred format be? "22000" or "22 kW"? I would like to
clearify this on the wiki-page.

Personally I would prefer "22000" as it fits with other OSM-values (no
units).


generally people are encouraged to add units for disambiguation reasons and to use locally used units and preferably SI units.

For power, no default units are currently specified on this page:

And it doesn't even mention horsepower for power, a unit that for many people may be more evocative than Watt (everybody can imagine 30 horses, but how much are 22 kW?) ;-)

Personally, if we were to set up a default for power units, I would prefer kW, because if we'd use Watt we will get very high numbers for MW (e.g. needed for power generators). Presuming, we would have the same standard unit for all things power, and not different defaults for socket and say power stations.

Cheers,
Martin



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Re: Charging stations: socket:<type>:output -- which format for the value?

brad
In reply to this post by Daniel Korn
I don't have an opinion about kw or w, but if the value is only a number, then to prevent confusion and reduce mistagging the key should specify, output-kw=22 .   


On 7/29/19 5:00 AM, dktue wrote:
I'd vote for kW aswell (and a value of "22" then), since we're not always using SI and not always base-unit-values (see kilometers per hour).

Am 29.07.2019 um 12:53 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:


Am Mo., 29. Juli 2019 um 12:39 Uhr schrieb dktue <[hidden email]>:
Hello,

the OSM-Wiki-page on charging stations [1] defines the tag
socket:<type>:output=watt

wheres the examples contain values like "22 kW".

What would the preferred format be? "22000" or "22 kW"? I would like to
clearify this on the wiki-page.

Personally I would prefer "22000" as it fits with other OSM-values (no
units).


generally people are encouraged to add units for disambiguation reasons and to use locally used units and preferably SI units.

For power, no default units are currently specified on this page:

And it doesn't even mention horsepower for power, a unit that for many people may be more evocative than Watt (everybody can imagine 30 horses, but how much are 22 kW?) ;-)

Personally, if we were to set up a default for power units, I would prefer kW, because if we'd use Watt we will get very high numbers for MW (e.g. needed for power generators). Presuming, we would have the same standard unit for all things power, and not different defaults for socket and say power stations.

Cheers,
Martin


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Re: Charging stations: socket:<type>:output -- which format for the value?

Lionel Giard
All electric charging station that i have ever encounter are in "kW" not in watt (ex: 3 kW, 50 kW, 120 kW, 175 kW...). To me, it is the same as the maxspeed tag, we don't put it in m/h but in km/h -> we use the common unit as everyone use it. Thus we don't use the SI value everywhere and that seem logical, so here it seems ok to me to leave it in kW.

Le mar. 30 juil. 2019 à 04:40, brad <[hidden email]> a écrit :
I don't have an opinion about kw or w, but if the value is only a number, then to prevent confusion and reduce mistagging the key should specify, output-kw=22 .   


On 7/29/19 5:00 AM, dktue wrote:
I'd vote for kW aswell (and a value of "22" then), since we're not always using SI and not always base-unit-values (see kilometers per hour).

Am 29.07.2019 um 12:53 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:


Am Mo., 29. Juli 2019 um 12:39 Uhr schrieb dktue <[hidden email]>:
Hello,

the OSM-Wiki-page on charging stations [1] defines the tag
socket:<type>:output=watt

wheres the examples contain values like "22 kW".

What would the preferred format be? "22000" or "22 kW"? I would like to
clearify this on the wiki-page.

Personally I would prefer "22000" as it fits with other OSM-values (no
units).


generally people are encouraged to add units for disambiguation reasons and to use locally used units and preferably SI units.

For power, no default units are currently specified on this page:

And it doesn't even mention horsepower for power, a unit that for many people may be more evocative than Watt (everybody can imagine 30 horses, but how much are 22 kW?) ;-)

Personally, if we were to set up a default for power units, I would prefer kW, because if we'd use Watt we will get very high numbers for MW (e.g. needed for power generators). Presuming, we would have the same standard unit for all things power, and not different defaults for socket and say power stations.

Cheers,
Martin


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Re: Charging stations: socket:<type>:output -- which format for the value?

Warin
In reply to this post by brad
On 30/07/19 12:38, brad wrote:
I don't have an opinion about kw or w, but if the value is only a number, then to prevent confusion and reduce mistagging the key should specify, output-kw=22 .   

OSM typically places unit after the value.
For examples see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features/Units#Explicit_specifications



On 7/29/19 5:00 AM, dktue wrote:
I'd vote for kW aswell (and a value of "22" then), since we're not always using SI and not always base-unit-values (see kilometers per hour).

Am 29.07.2019 um 12:53 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:


Am Mo., 29. Juli 2019 um 12:39 Uhr schrieb dktue <[hidden email]>:
Hello,

the OSM-Wiki-page on charging stations [1] defines the tag
socket:<type>:output=watt

wheres the examples contain values like "22 kW".

What would the preferred format be? "22000" or "22 kW"? I would like to
clearify this on the wiki-page.

Personally I would prefer "22000" as it fits with other OSM-values (no
units).


generally people are encouraged to add units for disambiguation reasons and to use locally used units and preferably SI units.

For power, no default units are currently specified on this page:

And it doesn't even mention horsepower for power, a unit that for many people may be more evocative than Watt (everybody can imagine 30 horses, but how much are 22 kW?) ;-)

Personally, if we were to set up a default for power units, I would prefer kW, because if we'd use Watt we will get very high numbers for MW (e.g. needed for power generators). Presuming, we would have the same standard unit for all things power, and not different defaults for socket and say power stations.

Cheers,
Martin





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Re: Charging stations: socket:<type>:output -- which format for the value?

Daniel Korn

> OSM typically places unit after the value.
> For examples see
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features/Units#Explicit_specifications
In Some cases the unit is omitted and a default is assumed. Would this
default be "kW" in this case?


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Re: Charging stations: socket:<type>:output -- which format for the value?

Joseph Eisenberg
The tag socket:<type>:output has been used 5000 times, so I think it's
best to describe existing usage on the wiki. The current usage is to
tag the units, which are almost always kW:

socket:type2:output has been used 3663 times, and the majority (>70%)
are tagged with 22kW, 22 kW, 43kW and 11 kW - they all have kW after
the number, but the presence of a space is variable.
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/socket%3Atype2%3Aoutput#values

socket:chademo:output has been used 1 275 times, and 91% are tagged
50kW or 50 kW - there are 12 with 50000 and 11 with 50 and no units
(0.1% each).

socket:schuko:output has been used 1 306 times and 80% are tagged
3.6kW, with another 11% tagged 3.7␣kW - all but one common value
included kW as a unit (3700 is used 11 times; 0.1%).

socket:typee:output has been used 128 times, and 84% area tagged "3
kW", none have no units.

socket:type1:output is used 83 times, all values end with "kW"

socket:tesla_supercharger:output is used 72 times, all values end with
"kW" except 2 (one is 120000, the other 120).

So 99% have the format "<number>kW" or "<number> kW" with a space.

I think the wiki should state that the output is specified in kW and
the unit is specified, to match current usage.

Joseph

On 7/30/19, dktue <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>> OSM typically places unit after the value.
>> For examples see
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features/Units#Explicit_specifications
> In Some cases the unit is omitted and a default is assumed. Would this
> default be "kW" in this case?
>
>
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Re: Charging stations: socket:<type>:output -- which format for the value?

brad
In reply to this post by Warin
On 7/30/19 2:59 AM, Warin wrote:
On 30/07/19 12:38, brad wrote:
I don't have an opinion about kw or w, but if the value is only a number, then to prevent confusion and reduce mistagging the key should specify, output-kw=22 .   

OSM typically places unit after the value.
For examples see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features/Units#Explicit_specifications
+1  I think this is best.





On 7/29/19 5:00 AM, dktue wrote:
I'd vote for kW aswell (and a value of "22" then), since we're not always using SI and not always base-unit-values (see kilometers per hour).

Am 29.07.2019 um 12:53 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:


Am Mo., 29. Juli 2019 um 12:39 Uhr schrieb dktue <[hidden email]>:
Hello,

the OSM-Wiki-page on charging stations [1] defines the tag
socket:<type>:output=watt

wheres the examples contain values like "22 kW".

What would the preferred format be? "22000" or "22 kW"? I would like to
clearify this on the wiki-page.

Personally I would prefer "22000" as it fits with other OSM-values (no
units).


generally people are encouraged to add units for disambiguation reasons and to use locally used units and preferably SI units.

For power, no default units are currently specified on this page:

And it doesn't even mention horsepower for power, a unit that for many people may be more evocative than Watt (everybody can imagine 30 horses, but how much are 22 kW?) ;-)

Personally, if we were to set up a default for power units, I would prefer kW, because if we'd use Watt we will get very high numbers for MW (e.g. needed for power generators). Presuming, we would have the same standard unit for all things power, and not different defaults for socket and say power stations.

Cheers,
Martin





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Re: Charging stations: socket:<type>:output -- which format for the value?

Warin
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg
On 31/07/19 01:39, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:

> The tag socket:<type>:output has been used 5000 times, so I think it's
> best to describe existing usage on the wiki. The current usage is to
> tag the units, which are almost always kW:
>
> socket:type2:output has been used 3663 times, and the majority (>70%)
> are tagged with 22kW, 22 kW, 43kW and 11 kW - they all have kW after
> the number, but the presence of a space is variable.
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/socket%3Atype2%3Aoutput#values
>
> socket:chademo:output has been used 1 275 times, and 91% are tagged
> 50kW or 50 kW - there are 12 with 50000 and 11 with 50 and no units
> (0.1% each).
>
> socket:schuko:output has been used 1 306 times and 80% are tagged
> 3.6kW, with another 11% tagged 3.7␣kW - all but one common value
> included kW as a unit (3700 is used 11 times; 0.1%).
>
> socket:typee:output has been used 128 times, and 84% area tagged "3
> kW", none have no units.
>
> socket:type1:output is used 83 times, all values end with "kW"
>
> socket:tesla_supercharger:output is used 72 times, all values end with
> "kW" except 2 (one is 120000, the other 120).
>
> So 99% have the format "<number>kW" or "<number> kW" with a space.
>
> I think the wiki should state that the output is specified in kW and
> the unit is specified, to match current usage.

Err the wiki could state the default is kW.
There is no present default unit for power - see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features/Units#Default_units
Adding a default would be good, and kW is probably the most universal in this case, but for power generation MW is more universal.


And the wiki could also state that a space is required between the numeric values and the units, if any.
This is the case for all other units so the convention should be held.

>
> Joseph
>
> On 7/30/19, dktue <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> OSM typically places unit after the value.
>>> For examples see
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features/Units#Explicit_specifications
>> In Some cases the unit is omitted and a default is assumed. Would this
>> default be "kW" in this case?
>>
>>


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Re: Charging stations: socket:<type>:output -- which format for the value?

Paul Allen
On Wed, 31 Jul 2019 at 08:35, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:

Err the wiki could state the default is kW.
There is no present default unit for power - see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features/Units#Default_units
Adding a default would be good, and kW is probably the most universal in this case, but for power generation MW is more universal.

There have been sporadic discussions here about mapping the availability of USB charger
outlets.  A default of kW doesn't suit everything.  But, assuming we agree that SI multipliers
can be used, then sure, kW is a reasonable default.  I would also propose that any value
that defaults to any SI unit should allow SI multipliers.

And the wiki could also state that a space is required between the numeric values and the units, if any.
This is the case for all other units so the convention should be held.

It is certainly desirable that a space be there (in non-monospaced fonts, a good typographer
would insert a thin space rather than a full space, this does conform to SI requirements for
spacing).  However, people are fallible and may omit the space for many reasons (didn't
read the documentation, typo, etc.).  It would be nice if editors (at a minimum, it could be
applied to other steps in the chain too) applied Postel's robustness principle: "Be conservative
in what you send, be liberal in what you accept."  I.e., an editor would allow a user to enter
"7kW" but would upload it as "7 kW."  Some editors already strip superfluous spaces from
values (of any kind) so this would not be a drastic break from what they currently do.

--
Paul


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Re: Charging stations: socket:<type>:output -- which format for the value?

Warin
On 31/07/19 20:28, Paul Allen wrote:
On Wed, 31 Jul 2019 at 08:35, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:

Err the wiki could state the default is kW.
There is no present default unit for power - see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features/Units#Default_units
Adding a default would be good, and kW is probably the most universal in this case, but for power generation MW is more universal.

There have been sporadic discussions here about mapping the availability of USB charger
outlets.  A default of kW doesn't suit everything. 

USB outlets are typically specified by the current capability. So I would not tag power on them but current.
Say, current=0.5 A or current=2.1 A .. where A stands for Ampere.

But, assuming we agree that SI multipliers
can be used, then sure, kW is a reasonable default.  I would also propose that any value
that defaults to any SI unit should allow SI multipliers.

And the wiki could also state that a space is required between the numeric values and the units, if any.
This is the case for all other units so the convention should be held.

It is certainly desirable that a space be there (in non-monospaced fonts, a good typographer
would insert a thin space rather than a full space, this does conform to SI requirements for
spacing).  However, people are fallible and may omit the space for many reasons (didn't
read the documentation, typo, etc.).  It would be nice if editors (at a minimum, it could be
applied to other steps in the chain too) applied Postel's robustness principle: "Be conservative
in what you send, be liberal in what you accept."  I.e., an editor would allow a user to enter
"7kW" but would upload it as "7 kW."  Some editors already strip superfluous spaces from
values (of any kind) so this would not be a drastic break from what they currently do.
+1



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Re: Charging stations: socket:<type>:output -- which format for the value?

Tordanik
In reply to this post by Warin
On 31.07.19 09:34, Warin wrote:
> There is no present default unit for power - see
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features/Units#Default_units
> Adding a default would be good

Why would it be good to add a default value?

I believe explicit units are generally preferable because they avoid
ambiguity and misunderstandings. With other tags, values without an
explicit unit are already common in the database, so this usage needs to
be documented. But introducing a default for a tag that is generally
used with explicit units doesn't seem useful unless you *want* people to
start omitting the units and rely on the default.

> And the wiki could also state that a space is required between the
> numeric values and the units, if any.

The wiki mentions this as a general rule: "The following units can be
explicitly specified by adding them after the numeric value, separated
by a space". But I agree that this recommendation should also
be repeated on Key:* pages.

Tobias



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