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Church hierarchy

Bill & Kathy Patterson
Are there any recommendations for reporting church hierarchies in OSM?  For example, in the Presbyterian Church in Canada, and the United Church of Canada, congregations are members of presbyteries, and presbyteries members of synods, a bottom-up structure.  In the Anglican and Roman Catholic churches I know that the diocese is part of their top-down structure.

Should these be tags, relations, or ignored?

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Re: Church hierarchy

John Sturdy
I haven't seen any; what type of objects are you looking at mapping?
You could map the boundaries of the administrative areas, although I
don't think this is done.  For example, for my area and my
denomination (Anglican), if I search on the front page map for the
government county "Cambridgeshire", I get the county boundary, as a
relation containing several ways, but if I search for "Diocese of Ely"
I don't get anything.  But if you have the boundaries of the
lowest-level units (e.g. parishes) you could map those, and then build
deaneries and dioceses on top of those.

__John


On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 7:48 PM, Bill & Kathy Patterson
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Are there any recommendations for reporting church hierarchies in OSM?  For
> example, in the Presbyterian Church in Canada, and the United Church of
> Canada, congregations are members of presbyteries, and presbyteries members
> of synods, a bottom-up structure.  In the Anglican and Roman Catholic
> churches I know that the diocese is part of their top-down structure.
>
> Should these be tags, relations, or ignored?
>
> _______________________________________________
> newbies mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/newbies
>

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Re: Church hierarchy

Bill & Kathy Patterson
Actually I wasn't thinking of mapping the boundaries.  Rather I meant my query to relate to the detail assigned while mapping specific church buildings.  The denomination is already a tag (if I have my parlance correct), but would it be reasonable to also specify within which deanery and diocese (or which presbytery and synod) a church lies?  If so, should this be done as a tag or as a relation? And although the denomination is already in the information, does it add anything to specify the governing body such as the Presbyterian Church in Canada vs. the Church of Scotland or the Presbyterian Church in the United States.  And then there are the baptists, with the American Baptist churches, the Southern Baptist Convention, the General Baptist Ministries, the Fellowship of Evangelical Baptists, and goodness knows how many other groups.  Somehow the tag "Baptist" seems inadequate.


From: John Sturdy <[hidden email]>
To: Bill & Kathy Patterson <[hidden email]>; Help for newbie mappers <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2015 8:08 AM
Subject: Re: [OSM-newbies] Church hierarchy

I haven't seen any; what type of objects are you looking at mapping?
You could map the boundaries of the administrative areas, although I
don't think this is done.  For example, for my area and my
denomination (Anglican), if I search on the front page map for the
government county "Cambridgeshire", I get the county boundary, as a
relation containing several ways, but if I search for "Diocese of Ely"
I don't get anything.  But if you have the boundaries of the
lowest-level units (e.g. parishes) you could map those, and then build
deaneries and dioceses on top of those.

__John




On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 7:48 PM, Bill & Kathy Patterson
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Are there any recommendations for reporting church hierarchies in OSM?  For
> example, in the Presbyterian Church in Canada, and the United Church of
> Canada, congregations are members of presbyteries, and presbyteries members
> of synods, a bottom-up structure.  In the Anglican and Roman Catholic
> churches I know that the diocese is part of their top-down structure.
>
> Should these be tags, relations, or ignored?

>
> _______________________________________________
> newbies mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/newbies

>



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Re: Church hierarchy

Serge Wroclawski-2
Bill,

Organizational hierarchies are interesting and useful, but they're a
bit outside what we normally map in OSM.

There are other organizational hierarchies one might consider, such as
government facilities, town, county, state, federal government
facilities, or corporations which have subsidiaries, etc.

That's very valuable information, but you can't really observe it on the ground.

There are places where such information would be of great value, such
as Wikipedia or Wikidata.

- Serge


On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 5:59 PM, Bill & Kathy Patterson
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Actually I wasn't thinking of mapping the boundaries.  Rather I meant my
> query to relate to the detail assigned while mapping specific church
> buildings.  The denomination is already a tag (if I have my parlance
> correct), but would it be reasonable to also specify within which deanery
> and diocese (or which presbytery and synod) a church lies?  If so, should
> this be done as a tag or as a relation? And although the denomination is
> already in the information, does it add anything to specify the governing
> body such as the Presbyterian Church in Canada vs. the Church of Scotland or
> the Presbyterian Church in the United States.  And then there are the
> baptists, with the American Baptist churches, the Southern Baptist
> Convention, the General Baptist Ministries, the Fellowship of Evangelical
> Baptists, and goodness knows how many other groups.  Somehow the tag
> "Baptist" seems inadequate.
>
> ________________________________
> From: John Sturdy <[hidden email]>
> To: Bill & Kathy Patterson <[hidden email]>; Help for
> newbie mappers <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2015 8:08 AM
> Subject: Re: [OSM-newbies] Church hierarchy
>
> I haven't seen any; what type of objects are you looking at mapping?
> You could map the boundaries of the administrative areas, although I
> don't think this is done.  For example, for my area and my
> denomination (Anglican), if I search on the front page map for the
> government county "Cambridgeshire", I get the county boundary, as a
> relation containing several ways, but if I search for "Diocese of Ely"
> I don't get anything.  But if you have the boundaries of the
> lowest-level units (e.g. parishes) you could map those, and then build
> deaneries and dioceses on top of those.
>
> __John
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 7:48 PM, Bill & Kathy Patterson
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Are there any recommendations for reporting church hierarchies in OSM?
>> For
>> example, in the Presbyterian Church in Canada, and the United Church of
>> Canada, congregations are members of presbyteries, and presbyteries
>> members
>> of synods, a bottom-up structure.  In the Anglican and Roman Catholic
>> churches I know that the diocese is part of their top-down structure.
>>
>> Should these be tags, relations, or ignored?
>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> newbies mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/newbies
>
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> newbies mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/newbies
>

_______________________________________________
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Re: Church hierarchy

Mike Thompson
I have seen churches where at least part of the hierarchy is listed on the sign out front.  Something like "Redeemer Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod" 

Mike

On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 4:15 PM, Serge Wroclawski <[hidden email]> wrote:
Bill,

Organizational hierarchies are interesting and useful, but they're a
bit outside what we normally map in OSM.

There are other organizational hierarchies one might consider, such as
government facilities, town, county, state, federal government
facilities, or corporations which have subsidiaries, etc.

That's very valuable information, but you can't really observe it on the ground.

There are places where such information would be of great value, such
as Wikipedia or Wikidata.

- Serge


On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 5:59 PM, Bill & Kathy Patterson
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Actually I wasn't thinking of mapping the boundaries.  Rather I meant my
> query to relate to the detail assigned while mapping specific church
> buildings.  The denomination is already a tag (if I have my parlance
> correct), but would it be reasonable to also specify within which deanery
> and diocese (or which presbytery and synod) a church lies?  If so, should
> this be done as a tag or as a relation? And although the denomination is
> already in the information, does it add anything to specify the governing
> body such as the Presbyterian Church in Canada vs. the Church of Scotland or
> the Presbyterian Church in the United States.  And then there are the
> baptists, with the American Baptist churches, the Southern Baptist
> Convention, the General Baptist Ministries, the Fellowship of Evangelical
> Baptists, and goodness knows how many other groups.  Somehow the tag
> "Baptist" seems inadequate.
>
> ________________________________
> From: John Sturdy <[hidden email]>
> To: Bill & Kathy Patterson <[hidden email]>; Help for
> newbie mappers <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2015 8:08 AM
> Subject: Re: [OSM-newbies] Church hierarchy
>
> I haven't seen any; what type of objects are you looking at mapping?
> You could map the boundaries of the administrative areas, although I
> don't think this is done.  For example, for my area and my
> denomination (Anglican), if I search on the front page map for the
> government county "Cambridgeshire", I get the county boundary, as a
> relation containing several ways, but if I search for "Diocese of Ely"
> I don't get anything.  But if you have the boundaries of the
> lowest-level units (e.g. parishes) you could map those, and then build
> deaneries and dioceses on top of those.
>
> __John
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 7:48 PM, Bill & Kathy Patterson
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Are there any recommendations for reporting church hierarchies in OSM?
>> For
>> example, in the Presbyterian Church in Canada, and the United Church of
>> Canada, congregations are members of presbyteries, and presbyteries
>> members
>> of synods, a bottom-up structure.  In the Anglican and Roman Catholic
>> churches I know that the diocese is part of their top-down structure.
>>
>> Should these be tags, relations, or ignored?
>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> newbies mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/newbies
>
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> newbies mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/newbies
>

_______________________________________________
newbies mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/newbies


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Re: Church hierarchy

John F. Eldredge
In reply to this post by Bill & Kathy Patterson
Note that Baptists are less hierarchical than some other denominations. A given congregation may or may not be associated with local, state, and national associations, in any combination, and membership in a local association, for example, doesn't confer state or national membership. Among Southern Baptists, the state and national associations are commonly referred to as Conventions.


On April 24, 2015 4:59:01 PM CDT, Bill & Kathy Patterson <[hidden email]> wrote:
Actually I wasn't thinking of mapping the boundaries.  Rather I meant my query to relate to the detail assigned while mapping specific church buildings.  The denomination is already a tag (if I have my parlance correct), but would it be reasonable to also specify within which deanery and diocese (or which presbytery and synod) a church lies?  If so, should this be done as a tag or as a relation? And although the denomination is already in the information, does it add anything to specify the governing body such as the Presbyterian Church in Canada vs. the Church of Scotland or the Presbyterian Church in the United States.  And then there are the baptists, with the American Baptist churches, the Southern Baptist Convention, the General Baptist Ministries, the Fellowship of Evangelical Baptists, and goodness knows how many other groups.  Somehow the tag "Baptist" seems inadequate.


From: John Sturdy <[hidden email]>
To: Bill & Kathy Patterson <[hidden email]>; Help for newbie mappers <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2015 8:08 AM
Subject: Re: [OSM-newbies] Church hierarchy

I haven't seen any; what type of objects are you looking at mapping?
You could map the boundaries of the administrative areas, although I
don't think this is done.  For example, for my area and my
denomination (Anglican), if I search on the front page map for the
government county "Cambridgeshire", I get the county boundary, as a
relation containing several ways, but if I search for "Diocese of Ely"
I don't get anything.  But if you have the boundaries of the
lowest-level units (e.g. parishes) you could map those, and then build
deaneries and dioceses on top of those.

__John




On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 7:48 PM, Bill & Kathy Patterson
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Are there any recommendations for reporting church hierarchies in OSM?  For
> example, in the Presbyterian Church in Canada, and the United Church of
> Canada, congregations are members of presbyteries, and presbyteries members
> of synods, a bottom-up structure.  In the Anglican and Roman Catholic
> churches I know that the diocese is part of their top-down structure.
>
> Should these be tags, relations, or ignored?

>
> _______________________________________________
> newbies mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/newbies

>




newbies mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/newbies

--
John F. Eldredge -- [hidden email]
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
_______________________________________________
newbies mailing list
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Re: Church hierarchy

John Deters
This is an outstanding example of why the hierarchy shouldn't be mapped in the main database. If it's important to the churches in question, it's their business. 

--
John
Awkwardly thumbed in on a phone.

On Apr 25, 2015, at 10:18 AM, "John F. Eldredge" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Note that Baptists are less hierarchical than some other denominations. A given congregation may or may not be associated with local, state, and national associations, in any combination, and membership in a local association, for example, doesn't confer state or national membership. Among Southern Baptists, the state and national associations are commonly referred to as Conventions.


On April 24, 2015 4:59:01 PM CDT, Bill & Kathy Patterson <[hidden email]> wrote:
Actually I wasn't thinking of mapping the boundaries.  Rather I meant my query to relate to the detail assigned while mapping specific church buildings.  The denomination is already a tag (if I have my parlance correct), but would it be reasonable to also specify within which deanery and diocese (or which presbytery and synod) a church lies?  If so, should this be done as a tag or as a relation? And although the denomination is already in the information, does it add anything to specify the governing body such as the Presbyterian Church in Canada vs. the Church of Scotland or the Presbyterian Church in the United States.  And then there are the baptists, with the American Baptist churches, the Southern Baptist Convention, the General Baptist Ministries, the Fellowship of Evangelical Baptists, and goodness knows how many other groups.  Somehow the tag "Baptist" seems inadequate.


From: John Sturdy <[hidden email]>
To: Bill & Kathy Patterson <[hidden email]>; Help for newbie mappers <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2015 8:08 AM
Subject: Re: [OSM-newbies] Church hierarchy

I haven't seen any; what type of objects are you looking at mapping?
You could map the boundaries of the administrative areas, although I
don't think this is done.  For example, for my area and my
denomination (Anglican), if I search on the front page map for the
government county "Cambridgeshire", I get the county boundary, as a
relation containing several ways, but if I search for "Diocese of Ely"
I don't get anything.  But if you have the boundaries of the
lowest-level units (e.g. parishes) you could map those, and then build
deaneries and dioceses on top of those.

__John




On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 7:48 PM, Bill & Kathy Patterson
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Are there any recommendations for reporting church hierarchies in OSM?  For
> example, in the Presbyterian Church in Canada, and the United Church of
> Canada, congregations are members of presbyteries, and presbyteries members
> of synods, a bottom-up structure.  In the Anglican and Roman Catholic
> churches I know that the diocese is part of their top-down structure.
>
> Should these be tags, relations, or ignored?

>
> _______________________________________________
> newbies mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/newbies

>




newbies mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/newbies

--
John F. Eldredge -- [hidden email]
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.

_______________________________________________
newbies mailing list
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https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/newbies
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Re: Church hierarchy

Jim Mays
Perhaps best to follow USGS format & simply mark their existence with either a star, a crescent or a cross, or other symbols as appropriate.
JimM

On Sun, Apr 26, 2015 at 1:47 PM, John Deters <[hidden email]> wrote:
This is an outstanding example of why the hierarchy shouldn't be mapped in the main database. If it's important to the churches in question, it's their business. 

--
John
Awkwardly thumbed in on a phone.

On Apr 25, 2015, at 10:18 AM, "John F. Eldredge" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Note that Baptists are less hierarchical than some other denominations. A given congregation may or may not be associated with local, state, and national associations, in any combination, and membership in a local association, for example, doesn't confer state or national membership. Among Southern Baptists, the state and national associations are commonly referred to as Conventions.


On April 24, 2015 4:59:01 PM CDT, Bill & Kathy Patterson <[hidden email]> wrote:
Actually I wasn't thinking of mapping the boundaries.  Rather I meant my query to relate to the detail assigned while mapping specific church buildings.  The denomination is already a tag (if I have my parlance correct), but would it be reasonable to also specify within which deanery and diocese (or which presbytery and synod) a church lies?  If so, should this be done as a tag or as a relation? And although the denomination is already in the information, does it add anything to specify the governing body such as the Presbyterian Church in Canada vs. the Church of Scotland or the Presbyterian Church in the United States.  And then there are the baptists, with the American Baptist churches, the Southern Baptist Convention, the General Baptist Ministries, the Fellowship of Evangelical Baptists, and goodness knows how many other groups.  Somehow the tag "Baptist" seems inadequate.


From: John Sturdy <[hidden email]>
To: Bill & Kathy Patterson <[hidden email]>; Help for newbie mappers <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2015 8:08 AM
Subject: Re: [OSM-newbies] Church hierarchy

I haven't seen any; what type of objects are you looking at mapping?
You could map the boundaries of the administrative areas, although I
don't think this is done.  For example, for my area and my
denomination (Anglican), if I search on the front page map for the
government county "Cambridgeshire", I get the county boundary, as a
relation containing several ways, but if I search for "Diocese of Ely"
I don't get anything.  But if you have the boundaries of the
lowest-level units (e.g. parishes) you could map those, and then build
deaneries and dioceses on top of those.

__John




On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 7:48 PM, Bill & Kathy Patterson
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Are there any recommendations for reporting church hierarchies in OSM?  For
> example, in the Presbyterian Church in Canada, and the United Church of
> Canada, congregations are members of presbyteries, and presbyteries members
> of synods, a bottom-up structure.  In the Anglican and Roman Catholic
> churches I know that the diocese is part of their top-down structure.
>
> Should these be tags, relations, or ignored?

>
> _______________________________________________
> newbies mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/newbies

>




newbies mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/newbies

--
John F. Eldredge -- [hidden email]
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.

_______________________________________________
newbies mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/newbies




--
Jim Mays 845-657-2013

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Re: Church hierarchy

Bill & Kathy Patterson
Thanks to everyone for your input.  It certainly sounds like the consensus is to leave the can of worms unopened.  I'm good with that.

Bill


From: Jim Mays <[hidden email]>
To: Help for newbie mappers <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2015 8:09 PM
Subject: Re: [OSM-newbies] Church hierarchy

Perhaps best to follow USGS format & simply mark their existence with either a star, a crescent or a cross, or other symbols as appropriate.
JimM

On Sun, Apr 26, 2015 at 1:47 PM, John Deters <[hidden email]> wrote:


This is an outstanding example of why the hierarchy shouldn't be mapped in the main database. If it's important to the churches in question, it's their business. 

--
John
Awkwardly thumbed in on a phone.

On Apr 25, 2015, at 10:18 AM, "John F. Eldredge" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Note that Baptists are less hierarchical than some other denominations. A given congregation may or may not be associated with local, state, and national associations, in any combination, and membership in a local association, for example, doesn't confer state or national membership. Among Southern Baptists, the state and national associations are commonly referred to as Conventions.


On April 24, 2015 4:59:01 PM CDT, Bill & Kathy Patterson <[hidden email]> wrote:
Actually I wasn't thinking of mapping the boundaries.  Rather I meant my query to relate to the detail assigned while mapping specific church buildings.  The denomination is already a tag (if I have my parlance correct), but would it be reasonable to also specify within which deanery and diocese (or which presbytery and synod) a church lies?  If so, should this be done as a tag or as a relation? And although the denomination is already in the information, does it add anything to specify the governing body such as the Presbyterian Church in Canada vs. the Church of Scotland or the Presbyterian Church in the United States.  And then there are the baptists, with the American Baptist churches, the Southern Baptist Convention, the General Baptist Ministries, the Fellowship of Evangelical Baptists, and goodness knows how many other groups.  Somehow the tag "Baptist" seems inadequate.


From: John Sturdy <[hidden email]>
To: Bill & Kathy Patterson <[hidden email]>; Help for newbie mappers <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2015 8:08 AM
Subject: Re: [OSM-newbies] Church hierarchy

I haven't seen any; what type of objects are you looking at mapping?
You could map the boundaries of the administrative areas, although I
don't think this is done.  For example, for my area and my
denomination (Anglican), if I search on the front page map for the
government county "Cambridgeshire", I get the county boundary, as a
relation containing several ways, but if I search for "Diocese of Ely"
I don't get anything.  But if you have the boundaries of the
lowest-level units (e.g. parishes) you could map those, and then build
deaneries and dioceses on top of those.

__John




On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 7:48 PM, Bill & Kathy Patterson
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Are there any recommendations for reporting church hierarchies in OSM?  For
> example, in the Presbyterian Church in Canada, and the United Church of
> Canada, congregations are members of presbyteries, and presbyteries members
> of synods, a bottom-up structure.  In the Anglican and Roman Catholic
> churches I know that the diocese is part of their top-down structure.
>
> Should these be tags, relations, or ignored?

>
> _______________________________________________
> newbies mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/newbies

>




newbies mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/newbies

--
John F. Eldredge -- [hidden email]
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.

_______________________________________________
newbies mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/newbies




--
Jim Mays 845-657-2013

_______________________________________________
newbies mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/newbies



_______________________________________________
newbies mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/newbies