Clarification of fire_hydrant:diameter

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Clarification of fire_hydrant:diameter

Viking
Hello,
as pointed out here [1], we need to clarify the meaning of  fire_hydrant:diameter=*.
We need to know which was the original meaning of this tag, because we probably misunderstood it when we rewrote fire hydrant page.
In Italy fire hydrant signboard doesn't report any diameter: the only diameter that you can read is printed on the cast iron pillar and it is the diameter of the flanged connection to the underground pipe.
Which diameter is instead reported on the signboard in other countries? And should we put this data in fire_hydrant:diameter?

[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:emergency%3Dfire_hydrant#Clarification_of_diameter

Best regards,
Alberto


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Re: Clarification of fire_hydrant:diameter

Paul Allen
On Thu, 24 Jan 2019 at 18:04, Viking <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello,
as pointed out here [1], we need to clarify the meaning of  fire_hydrant:diameter=*.
[...]
Which diameter is instead reported on the signboard in other countries?

In the UK, the yellow "H" sign indicates two numbers.  Upper number is the diameter of
the water main in millimetres, lower number distance to the hydrant in metres.  Older signage
used inches and feet, respectively (no ambiguity because if you see a diameter of 6 it's inches
and if you see 150 it's mm).  See

Note that the diameter on the sign is of the water main, not the hydrant coupling.  That is
standardized at 64mm (2.5 inch) across the UK.  The standarization became a legal
requirement many years ago after a fire crew from another area turned up and couldn't connect to

For what a few other countries do, you can get info about some of them from

After that, you'll have to google around, like I just did for the UK

And should we put this data in fire_hydrant:diameter?

[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:emergency%3Dfire_hydrant#Clarification_of_diameter

Your guess is as good as mine.  You'll have to see what other countries do before you can figure
out which of water main diameter and coupling diameter are useful.  Looking at the page,
there's already a tag for coupling diameter, so it looks like fire_hydrant:diameter must
originally have been intended for the diameter of the water main.   Water main diameter is
marked on signage in the UK and Australia but not in the US, where a colour code indicates
the water pressure.  I think you have some work ahead of you to come up with tagging that
covers everything, and even more work to document it clearly.

--
Paul


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Re: Clarification of fire_hydrant:diameter

François Lacombe-2
Hi Viking,

Good question, here is the situation in many French places.

As Paul mentioned for British hydrants, it is now mandatory to put signs next to hydrants in French also.
The displayed diameter is the diameter of the water main feeding the hydrant (the big water main going along the street, not the hydrant connecting pipe).
I already found diameters like 900mm displayed on such signs.

Manufacturers of hydrants like Bayard or Pont a Mousson also display a diameter on the hydrant itself (molded or painted)
It corresponds to the hydrant connecting pipe diameter and may often differ from the diameter displayed on the signs next to it.

Hydrants data models normalised in France for emergency and rescue services includes the second one, not the water main diameter.
=> I choose this one for fire_hydrant:diameter

Le jeu. 24 janv. 2019 à 19:36, Paul Allen <[hidden email]> a écrit :
Note that the diameter on the sign is of the water main, not the hydrant coupling.  That is
standardized at 64mm (2.5 inch) across the UK. 

Let's make it even more clearer, I see at least 3 possible diameter regarding a given fire hydrant :
- The water main diameter going along the street and (among other things) feed hydrants (going from DN50 to DN1200 in France)
- The water connecting pipe between the water main and the hydrant (normalised at DN100 in France)
- The hydrant couplings where firefighters connect their equipment. (normalised at DN80 in France if I remember well)

All the best

François


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Appropriate tagging for Redbox vending machines

Silent Spike
While looking to add appropriate "vending" tags into the name suggestion index project I came across a US based Redbox vending machine brand.

I'm across the globe so not familiar with it personally, but reading the wikipedia page it seems to dispense DVD and Blu-ray rentals. Unfortunately there's no clear "vending" tag for this (the OSM wiki page) so I wanted to gather thoughts here as to what would be most appropriate (and perhaps formalise this on the wiki).

Using overpass turbo I queried all the Redbox vending machines tagged with "vending" and the most common value (57 occurrences) is "vending=dvd". While this seems pretty appropriate, it's also not entirely accurate as it sounds like they also provide blu-ray rentals (plus they can be movies or games). All other values are variations of "movies", "media", "video_games" or lists combining these.

However, there's also the question as to whether "vending" is even the correct tag to use. An OSM help question from November 2012 on this very subject receives a suggestion to use the "rental" tag instead (0 results using overpass turbo for Redbox machines with this tag).

Any thoughts are appreciated!

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Re: Clarification of fire_hydrant:diameter

Marc Gemis
In reply to this post by Viking
In Belgium it is the inner diameter of the water main. Lowest value
I've seen is 50, highest 400 or so.
It's nicely explained on
http://brandweerbrasschaat.be/site/content/hydranten (in Dutch) with
pictures of the signs. The small ref number in the upper right corner
is not always there.
If you ever need pictures of those signs, please contact me, I have
plenty of them, but I have to look them up.

m.

p.s. the current JOSM preset & associated validation gives warnings
for 90, which is not uncommon here.

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Re: Clarification of fire_hydrant:diameter

François Lacombe-2
Hi Marc

Le ven. 25 janv. 2019 à 09:07, Marc Gemis <[hidden email]> a écrit :
In Belgium it is the inner diameter of the water main. Lowest value
I've seen is 50, highest 400 or so.

Are you sure it's the inner diameter instead of the nominal diameter?
They're not always equals

ISO 6708 defines the nominal diameter (DN) and it is way more used in plumbing than the internal one.

OSM diameter=* regards the nominal diameter

All the best

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Re: Clarification of fire_hydrant:diameter

Marc Gemis
Perhaps it's my fault, I just found

DN = Diameter Nominal. The term Diameter Nominal refers to the
internaldiameter of a pipe. Together with the nominal pressure rating
and the materials class, all dimensions of a piping line, e. g. flange
dimensions, are defined by indicating the nominal diameter. Steel is
often not specified, but assumed as material.

So perhaps I should have translated binnendiameter to "internaldiameter" ?

m.


On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 10:41 AM François Lacombe
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hi Marc
>
> Le ven. 25 janv. 2019 à 09:07, Marc Gemis <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>>
>> In Belgium it is the inner diameter of the water main. Lowest value
>> I've seen is 50, highest 400 or so.
>
>
> Are you sure it's the inner diameter instead of the nominal diameter?
> They're not always equals
>
> ISO 6708 defines the nominal diameter (DN) and it is way more used in plumbing than the internal one.
> https://www.techstreet.com/standards/din-en-iso-6708?product_id=1072836
>
> OSM diameter=* regards the nominal diameter
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:diameter
>
> All the best
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
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Re: Clarification of fire_hydrant:diameter

dieterdreist


Am Fr., 25. Jan. 2019 um 10:55 Uhr schrieb Marc Gemis <[hidden email]>:
Perhaps it's my fault, I just found

DN = Diameter Nominal. The term Diameter Nominal refers to the
internaldiameter of a pipe.


it refers to the nominal diameter, which corrisponds roughly to the internal diameter, but not exactly. You could look up the exact measurements in the standards which describe the thing, if you know which standard applies (for which use the pipe is standardized).

In OSM we should use the term "nominal diameter" or "DN" and not "internal diameter", because this is easy to find out (is written on it).

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: Clarification of fire_hydrant:diameter

François Lacombe-2
It should be said that internal diameter physically change over time and operational status of pipes.

Nominal diameter is theoretical value that is expressed in precise pressure and temperature conditions and true at anytime.
It should be used on OSM since we prefer static data and +1 with Martin "it's written on it".

All the best

François

Le ven. 25 janv. 2019 à 11:07, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> a écrit :


Am Fr., 25. Jan. 2019 um 10:55 Uhr schrieb Marc Gemis <[hidden email]>:
Perhaps it's my fault, I just found

DN = Diameter Nominal. The term Diameter Nominal refers to the
internaldiameter of a pipe.


it refers to the nominal diameter, which corrisponds roughly to the internal diameter, but not exactly. You could look up the exact measurements in the standards which describe the thing, if you know which standard applies (for which use the pipe is standardized).

In OSM we should use the term "nominal diameter" or "DN" and not "internal diameter", because this is easy to find out (is written on it).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: Appropriate tagging for Redbox vending machines

EthnicFood IsGreat
In reply to this post by Silent Spike

> Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 23:27:04 +0000
> From: Silent Spike <[hidden email]>
> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
> <[hidden email]>
> Subject: [Tagging] Appropriate tagging for Redbox vending machines
>
>
> While looking to add appropriate "vending" tags into the name suggestion
> index project <https://github.com/osmlab/name-suggestion-index> I came
> across a US based Redbox vending machine brand.
>
> I'm across the globe so not familiar with it personally, but reading the
> wikipedia page <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redbox> it seems to dispense
> DVD and Blu-ray rentals. Unfortunately there's no clear "vending" tag for
> this (the OSM wiki page
> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dvending_machine>) so I
> wanted to gather thoughts here as to what would be most appropriate (and
> perhaps formalise this on the wiki).
>
> Using overpass turbo I queried all the Redbox vending machines tagged with
> "vending" and the most common value (57 occurrences) is "vending=dvd".
> While this seems pretty appropriate, it's also not entirely accurate as it
> sounds like they also provide blu-ray rentals (plus they can be movies or
> games). All other values are variations of "movies", "media", "video_games"
> or lists combining these.
>
> However, there's also the question as to whether "vending" is even the
> correct tag to use. An OSM help question from November 2012
> <https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/17987/how-should-i-tag-a-redbox-dvd-blu-ray-and-video-game-rental-vending-machine>
> on
> this very subject receives a suggestion to use the "rental" tag instead (0
> results using overpass turbo for Redbox machines with this tag).
>
> Any thoughts are appreciated!


I think "rental" is more accurate.

Mark



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Re: Appropriate tagging for Redbox vending machines

Shawn K. Quinn
On 1/25/19 11:13, EthnicFood IsGreat wrote:
>> While looking to add appropriate "vending" tags into the name suggestion
>> index project <https://github.com/osmlab/name-suggestion-index> I came
>> across a US based Redbox vending machine brand.
[...]
> I think "rental" is more accurate.

Some if not all RedBox machines do also sell used DVDs/games. Though
their primary function is rental, adding vending=* in addition wouldn't
be entirely inaccurate.

--
Shawn K. Quinn <[hidden email]>
http://www.rantroulette.com
http://www.skqrecordquest.com

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Re: Clarification of fire_hydrant:diameter

Viking
In reply to this post by Viking


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Re: Clarification of fire_hydrant:diameter

Viking
In reply to this post by Viking
Sorry for multiple emails...

Anyway, the situation is this:

1) The water main diameter going along the street and (among other things) feed hydrants => fire_hydrant:diameter, according to the original meaning of this tag. It is  generally acquired from signboards.

2) The water connecting pipe between the water main and the hydrant => there is not a tag for this

3) The hydrant couplings where firefighters connect their equipment. => couplings:diameters, as documented on fire hydrant wiki page.

When I rewrote fire hydrant page, I did an error: I confused (1) and (2), because here in Italy, water main diameter (1) is not reported anywhere (nor on signboard nor on hydrant).
So I propose to rewrite fire_hydrant:diameter definition, removing references to (2) and simultaneously I will delete all fire_hydrant:diameter tags that I added, because all of them contain wrong data.

Best regards,
Alberto




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Re: Clarification of fire_hydrant:diameter

Viking
In reply to this post by Viking
I've fixed fire_hydrant:diameter legend on wiki page.

> If you ever need pictures of those signs, please contact me, I have plenty of them, but I have to look them up.

Marc, and anyone that has pictures of these signs, can you give them to us, to insert them on wiki page?

Thank you,
Alberto


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Re: Clarification of fire_hydrant:diameter

Marc Gemis
Hi Viking,

here is one for Belgium. It's on my photo website and I release it
hereby in Public Domain, feel free to download it and upload it to the
wiki.
https://xian.smugmug.com/OSM/OSM-2017/2017-01-01-Dikkelvenne/i-5MQMcZ3/A

On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 7:27 PM Viking <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> I've fixed fire_hydrant:diameter legend on wiki page.
>
> > If you ever need pictures of those signs, please contact me, I have plenty of them, but I have to look them up.
>
> Marc, and anyone that has pictures of these signs, can you give them to us, to insert them on wiki page?
>
> Thank you,
> Alberto
>
>
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> Questa e-mail è stata controllata per individuare virus con Avast antivirus.
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