Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

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Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

Joseph Eisenberg
We recently discussed the confusion about unclassified vs residential
recently, but a more significant issue is that different countries and
regions have a wide variety of practices about assigning the major
highway classes, especially trunk and primary.

In some countries, including parts of Europe and parts of the USA,
highway=trunk is reserved for "expressways" or "motorroads" with
certain physical characteristics. However, in England where the tag
originated, highway=trunk is used for the main, non-motorway highways
in the country. As can be seen by glancing at the rendering of
England, these highway=trunk connect just about every place=town in
England: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=6/53.021/-1.033

This means that highway=primary and highway=secondary is used for most
other paved roads with one lane in each direction. Many place=villages
in England are connected to a  highway=primary and the rest have a
highway=secondary. And most hamlets are on a highway=tertiary which
connects to larger villages or a town.

This leaves highway=unclassified for very minor roads, often too
narrow for 2 wide vehicles to pass each other, connecting isolated
dwellings and farms. This is how they are like residential roads, in
the English system.

I would like to adapt this system to Indonesia, where the government
has not yet classified most roads below the National level, but the
"Jalan Nasional" class of major highways has already been decided to
be mapped as highway=trunk.

See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Indonesian_Tagging_Guidelines#Roads
for an attempt.

The idea is that one can determine the classification of highway based
on what size of settlements it connects:

trunk - connects cities to cities ("National Roads")
primary - connects a town to a city or another town
secondary - connects a village to a town/city or another village
tertiary - connects a hamlet to a village/town or another hamlet
unclassified - connect farms / isolated dwellings to a hamlet/vilage
or another farm.

This system is internally consistent and works well for rendering, as
well as for routing.

Thoughts?
- Joseph
(I wish I could review this with other Indonesian mappers, but we
don't have an active forum or mailing list)

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Re: Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

Julien djakk
Hello !

I've been thinking about this for a long time.

Classifying roads should be the same all over the world ! :O

The highway tag shuffles administration grade (in England for example
or for motorways), physical characteristics / abutters (example :
residential, motorway), access, and importance (commuting and
long-distance trip). I think the highway tag should be split into
those 5 features : admin_level, abutters, access, commute_importance
and long_distance_importance (by experience, there should be 6 levels
for importance, from the cul-de-sac road to the main artery).

Importance tags could also apply to bicycle path and footways :D


Julien "djakk"

Le sam. 10 août 2019 à 10:27, Joseph Eisenberg
<[hidden email]> a écrit :

>
> We recently discussed the confusion about unclassified vs residential
> recently, but a more significant issue is that different countries and
> regions have a wide variety of practices about assigning the major
> highway classes, especially trunk and primary.
>
> In some countries, including parts of Europe and parts of the USA,
> highway=trunk is reserved for "expressways" or "motorroads" with
> certain physical characteristics. However, in England where the tag
> originated, highway=trunk is used for the main, non-motorway highways
> in the country. As can be seen by glancing at the rendering of
> England, these highway=trunk connect just about every place=town in
> England: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=6/53.021/-1.033
>
> This means that highway=primary and highway=secondary is used for most
> other paved roads with one lane in each direction. Many place=villages
> in England are connected to a  highway=primary and the rest have a
> highway=secondary. And most hamlets are on a highway=tertiary which
> connects to larger villages or a town.
>
> This leaves highway=unclassified for very minor roads, often too
> narrow for 2 wide vehicles to pass each other, connecting isolated
> dwellings and farms. This is how they are like residential roads, in
> the English system.
>
> I would like to adapt this system to Indonesia, where the government
> has not yet classified most roads below the National level, but the
> "Jalan Nasional" class of major highways has already been decided to
> be mapped as highway=trunk.
>
> See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Indonesian_Tagging_Guidelines#Roads
> for an attempt.
>
> The idea is that one can determine the classification of highway based
> on what size of settlements it connects:
>
> trunk - connects cities to cities ("National Roads")
> primary - connects a town to a city or another town
> secondary - connects a village to a town/city or another village
> tertiary - connects a hamlet to a village/town or another hamlet
> unclassified - connect farms / isolated dwellings to a hamlet/vilage
> or another farm.
>
> This system is internally consistent and works well for rendering, as
> well as for routing.
>
> Thoughts?
> - Joseph
> (I wish I could review this with other Indonesian mappers, but we
> don't have an active forum or mailing list)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

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Re: Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

Peter Elderson
Good luck with that!

Mvg Peter Elderson

> Op 10 aug. 2019 om 11:59 heeft Julien djakk <[hidden email]> het volgende geschreven:
>
> Hello !
>
> I've been thinking about this for a long time.
>
> Classifying roads should be the same all over the world ! :O
>
> The highway tag shuffles administration grade (in England for example
> or for motorways), physical characteristics / abutters (example :
> residential, motorway), access, and importance (commuting and
> long-distance trip). I think the highway tag should be split into
> those 5 features : admin_level, abutters, access, commute_importance
> and long_distance_importance (by experience, there should be 6 levels
> for importance, from the cul-de-sac road to the main artery).
>
> Importance tags could also apply to bicycle path and footways :D
>
>
> Julien "djakk"
>
> Le sam. 10 août 2019 à 10:27, Joseph Eisenberg
> <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>>
>> We recently discussed the confusion about unclassified vs residential
>> recently, but a more significant issue is that different countries and
>> regions have a wide variety of practices about assigning the major
>> highway classes, especially trunk and primary.
>>
>> In some countries, including parts of Europe and parts of the USA,
>> highway=trunk is reserved for "expressways" or "motorroads" with
>> certain physical characteristics. However, in England where the tag
>> originated, highway=trunk is used for the main, non-motorway highways
>> in the country. As can be seen by glancing at the rendering of
>> England, these highway=trunk connect just about every place=town in
>> England: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=6/53.021/-1.033
>>
>> This means that highway=primary and highway=secondary is used for most
>> other paved roads with one lane in each direction. Many place=villages
>> in England are connected to a  highway=primary and the rest have a
>> highway=secondary. And most hamlets are on a highway=tertiary which
>> connects to larger villages or a town.
>>
>> This leaves highway=unclassified for very minor roads, often too
>> narrow for 2 wide vehicles to pass each other, connecting isolated
>> dwellings and farms. This is how they are like residential roads, in
>> the English system.
>>
>> I would like to adapt this system to Indonesia, where the government
>> has not yet classified most roads below the National level, but the
>> "Jalan Nasional" class of major highways has already been decided to
>> be mapped as highway=trunk.
>>
>> See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Indonesian_Tagging_Guidelines#Roads
>> for an attempt.
>>
>> The idea is that one can determine the classification of highway based
>> on what size of settlements it connects:
>>
>> trunk - connects cities to cities ("National Roads")
>> primary - connects a town to a city or another town
>> secondary - connects a village to a town/city or another village
>> tertiary - connects a hamlet to a village/town or another hamlet
>> unclassified - connect farms / isolated dwellings to a hamlet/vilage
>> or another farm.
>>
>> This system is internally consistent and works well for rendering, as
>> well as for routing.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>> - Joseph
>> (I wish I could review this with other Indonesian mappers, but we
>> don't have an active forum or mailing list)
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tagging mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

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Re: Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

Paul Allen
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg
On Sat, 10 Aug 2019 at 09:27, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

However, in England where the tag originated, highway=trunk is used for the main,
non-motorway highways in the country.

Erm, no.  It's not like that.  Almost, but not quite.

There are A roads (known in OSM as primary routes) which are important routes connecting
major population centres.  There are B roads (known in OSM as secondary routes) which
have lower traffic densities than A routes and/or connect lesser population centres.

"A" roads are not synonymous with trunks in the UK.  In the UK a trunk road is more of an
A+ road rather than just an A road and is funded/maintained by national government rather
than local government.  Ignoring motorways, all(?) UK trunks are A roads but not all A roads
are trunks.  As far as motorists are concerned, trunks are indistinguishable from A roads
in terms of signage.  Although a non-trunk A road usually does not have the capacity of a
trunk A road there are cases where that is not true.

And then there are motorways.  In OSM-speak they might be called nullary (nihilary?) routes.
"A" roads are level 1, B roads are level 2 and motorways are level 0.  Trunks are maybe level
0.9 or 0.75 or 0.99 or something like that - a little better than non-trunk A roads, maybe.
 

As can be seen by glancing at the rendering of
England, these highway=trunk connect just about every place=town in
England: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=6/53.021/-1.033

Assuming they have all been tagged correctly, of course.  That may not be the case.

The idea is that one can determine the classification of highway based
on what size of settlements it connects:

trunk - connects cities to cities ("National Roads")
primary - connects a town to a city or another town
secondary - connects a village to a town/city or another village
tertiary - connects a hamlet to a village/town or another hamlet
unclassified - connect farms / isolated dwellings to a hamlet/vilage
or another farm.

In general, I dislike it when different countries interpret the same tags differently.  But
I also don't like the possibility that OSM will render routes in a way that differs from
their official classifications.  Civil servants have examined actual traffic statistics and
considered actual road construction (bends, constrictions, junctions, etc.) to classify
certain routes in certain ways.  If they say that the shortest road between town X and
town Y is a B road rather than an A road, they had a good  reason to do so (I hope).

Your scheme also suffers another problem.  I can point you at a road which connects
the biggest town in my county to the biggest (only) city in my county.  It passes through
a smaller town and a large number of hamlets.  Is it a primary (big town to city) or
a secondary (hamlet to hamlet to hamlet)?  You may think it's obvious, but there are
any number of circuitous routes connecting that big town to the city.  I can come up
with a route that takes me the thirty miles from the big town to the city by wandering
to the other end of the UK and back, but hat route DOES connect the two.  Equally, the
shortest route between X and Y could be a twisty, bendy thing whilst there's an A
road and a B road that connect the two which are longer but faster.

This system is internally consistent and works well for rendering, as
well as for routing.

Shortest route vs fastest route.  UK road designations take both factors into account,
mainly the latter.  People eyeballing things are likely to come up with the former.

--
Paul


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Re: Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

Joseph Eisenberg
Paul, thank you for clarifying the situation in England, as much as it
can be clarified.

Fortunately, our situation in eastern Indonesia is much simpler: most
roads have no official classification, and most towns and villages
only have one or two significant road connections to the rest of the
island.

I'm trying to help all of the HOT and facebook mappers classify the
highways in a reasonable way, instead of adding them all as
highway=unclassified (based on confusion) or highway=track (because
they are unpaved). And there was also a mapper adding every new road
as highway=primary, since it was the only road in the area, even it it
wandered off into the forest.

Generally I'm thinking about the many countries, outside of Europe,
where the tagging system has not yet been established, and where the
government hasn't clearly categorized the highways yet.

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Re: Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

Paul Allen
On Sat, 10 Aug 2019 at 15:32, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
Paul, thank you for clarifying the situation in England, as much as it
can be clarified.

As with OSM tagging, it evolved.  So we have things that are not ideal simply because of
historical accident.  If the UK were to come up with an all-new classification scheme,
based on everything we now know, it would probably look a lot different.  But the cost of
replacing all the signage, and all the printed maps, and the knowledge in people's
heads means that will never happen.  If we were to redesign the human body from
scratch it wouldn't have a recurrent laryngeal nerve, the epididymus would take a
different route and the eyes wouldn't be wired backwards, but evolution can't do that.

I'm sorry we inflicted our mess onto OSM, but that's just the way OSM evolved.  BTW,
that mess applies to the whole of Great Britan, not just England (things are somewhat
different in Northern Ireland).

Generally I'm thinking about the many countries, outside of Europe,
where the tagging system has not yet been established, and where the
government hasn't clearly categorized the highways yet.

Your original post read like you intended it to be applied globally.  As a set of
heuristics to apply in places where there are no official categories of roads,
then go for it.  I think it needs more work because the road network is a mesh
with many pairs of population centres having many routes between them,
some routes being longer, some routes being quicker.  The preferred route
from X to Y may be a detour via Z even though there is a shorter, direct route
from X to Y.

--
Paul


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Re: Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

Peter Elderson
OT 
"If we were to redesign the human body from
scratch it wouldn't have a recurrent laryngeal nerve, the epididymus would take a
different route and the eyes wouldn't be wired backwards,..." 

...and we would be born with wheels, wings and wifi...

Fr gr Peter Elderson




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Re: Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

Paul Johnson-3
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg
On Sat, Aug 10, 2019 at 3:26 AM Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
trunk - connects cities to cities ("National Roads")
primary - connects a town to a city or another town
secondary - connects a village to a town/city or another village
tertiary - connects a hamlet to a village/town or another hamlet
unclassified - connect farms / isolated dwellings to a hamlet/vilage
or another farm.

I'm pretty sure NE2 already tried forcing this once and it went approximately nowhere because it turns out there's more country-to-country nuance than that.

I'm all for adding additional and country-specific tags for highway, so that these British-specific ones can continue to work there and I'd be open to, say, getting highway= values like freeway, expressway, urban_arterial, etc, that map nicely to the US.  But, trying to remap the consensus to existing British-specific tag values is going to be a harder battle.

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Re: Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

Peter Elderson
I'm sure the hierarchy trunk/primary/secondary/tertiary/<something_else>/residential with a side of service types is general enough that all countries can map their own system to it. I feel no need to force any country's own system upon any other country, or to make it the same all over the world. 

If mapping tools map "dunno" to highway=road and <something_else> to highway=unclassified, I would applaud that. If renderers would consider mapping quaternary same as unclassified, I would applaud that. If this list could reach consensus for this preferred tagging and some commitment to getting it straight in a few OSM-significant countries, I'm sure renderers, mapping tools and checking tools will consider implementing it.

Vr gr Peter Elderson


Op zo 11 aug. 2019 om 19:40 schreef Paul Johnson <[hidden email]>:
On Sat, Aug 10, 2019 at 3:26 AM Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
trunk - connects cities to cities ("National Roads")
primary - connects a town to a city or another town
secondary - connects a village to a town/city or another village
tertiary - connects a hamlet to a village/town or another hamlet
unclassified - connect farms / isolated dwellings to a hamlet/vilage
or another farm.

I'm pretty sure NE2 already tried forcing this once and it went approximately nowhere because it turns out there's more country-to-country nuance than that.

I'm all for adding additional and country-specific tags for highway, so that these British-specific ones can continue to work there and I'd be open to, say, getting highway= values like freeway, expressway, urban_arterial, etc, that map nicely to the US.  But, trying to remap the consensus to existing British-specific tag values is going to be a harder battle.
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Re: Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

Paul Johnson-3
On Sun, Aug 11, 2019 at 1:35 PM Peter Elderson <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm sure the hierarchy trunk/primary/secondary/tertiary/<something_else>/residential with a side of service types is general enough that all countries can map their own system to it. I feel no need to force any country's own system upon any other country, or to make it the same all over the world. 

I largely agree.  I wouldn't mind country-specific values similar to the advantage that the UK has on this as previously stated, then let the wiki work out what counts as largely equivalent in character for the renderers to work with.  I feel like that would help a lot on the front and back end of it.

If mapping tools map "dunno" to highway=road and <something_else> to highway=unclassified, I would applaud that. If renderers would consider mapping quaternary same as unclassified, I would applaud that. If this list could reach consensus for this preferred tagging and some commitment to getting it straight in a few OSM-significant countries, I'm sure renderers, mapping tools and checking tools will consider implementing it.

Agreed, highway=road is great for "there's something here, but I don't know what it is".  Amazon Logistics mappers would be wise to use this value more than trying to make a low quality or incorrect guess (and I hope they're reading this because they're really doing a number on driveways and parking lots in Oklahoma right now at a pace I can't keep up with, particularly with OSMCha having broken RSS feeds).

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Re: Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

Graeme Fitzpatrick


On Mon, 12 Aug 2019 at 05:04, Paul Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Sun, Aug 11, 2019 at 1:35 PM Peter Elderson <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm sure the hierarchy trunk/primary/secondary/tertiary/<something_else>/residential with a side of service types is general enough that all countries can map their own system to it. I feel no need to force any country's own system upon any other country, or to make it the same all over the world. 

I largely agree.  I wouldn't mind country-specific values similar to the advantage that the UK has on this as previously stated, then let the wiki work out what counts as largely equivalent in character for the renderers to work with.  I feel like that would help a lot on the front and back end of it.

So how do you go about setting country-specific values?

In Australia, it's not uncommon for a Primary (& in some cases, Trunk!) road to be a single lane dirt road!, & it would be nice to be able to show them with the importance that they are to local residents of that area.  

Is it simply a matter of specifying road types under the "Australia" page & hoping that people read them?

Thanks

Graeme

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Re: Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

Paul Allen
On Sun, 11 Aug 2019 at 22:10, Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]> wrote:

In Australia, it's not uncommon for a Primary (& in some cases, Trunk!) road to be a single lane dirt road!, & it would be nice to be able to show them with the importance that they are to local residents of that area. 

There appear to be two schools of thought on this.  One is that if it is the only road between A
and B then it is a primary road, even if it's a single-lane dirt track.  The other is to adopt
a consistent country (or state, or region) wide classification, preferably adhering to official
classification if there is any, which might mean that the only road between A and B is a
secondary, tertiary or even quaternary road.

I favour the latter approach.  If there is only one single-lane track between A and B then
it is obviously of importance to those in the area without it needing to be emphasised by
a different colour.  Whereas rendering it as a primary road will mislead some people
planning a cross-country trip into think it's paved highway all the way, including the
final part of their trip from A to B.

I suggest that before you decide which approach best suits your country you first check
if there is a governmental classification scheme of highways.  It appears that, for Australia,
things are rather inconsistent across the states and territories and have changed over
the years.  Nevertheless, alphanumeric designations are now common amongst most
states and territories and the meaning of those designations can be found at
After examining that, then make your decision as to whether or not the OSM map ought
to reflect official designations or do its own thing.  And then discuss it in whatever forum
Australian mappers use and see if you can get a consensus agreeing with you.

--
Paul


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Re: Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

yo paseopor
In Spain we have big problems, discussions and arguments with that question. Last month, a French user complained about the state of a "Nacional" (Country Main Road) classified in OSM as trunk.
These problems have one main reason. Here in Spain, in some places, there are six degrees of public administration: European Union, Estado (Country), Comunidades Autónomas (state), Provincia (province), Comarca (like county), Municipio (like town)...and fourth of them have competences and decisions about that.
Also some Comunidades Autónomas make better investments and spend more money in some zones than Country government (because Country government prefers to do only motorways all over Spain) . But as for more people Country government is the most important (or the only important government for the country) the majority of roads that depends of that government are "defacto" the most important: trunk.
This is a mess and a disaster because you have some trunk roads (nacionales) that don't deserve this category: roads with less width than normal for two lanes,level crossings for all kind of tracks, passing-by little villages,  horrible smoothness and with the same track as they were created sixty or seventy years ago. Also you have good new 21st century ways with only interlevel crossing, average speed of 80/100, big widths per lane, but as they are from the government of the province ("Diputaciones") or from the government of the "state" they are automatically primary , secondary or tertiary roads. This is not fair. Think about it: a government will not spend its money in a road that is not really important. Barcelona's Province Government manages about one thousand million euros budget. So I assure you if  Barcelona's Province Government wants to build a new road in a well-populated area this road would be as good as primary or trunk.
Some people in OSM Spain want other classification criteria (not administrative but physical) to make more objective the road classification:

trunk: 4,3,2-lane new roads (newer than twenty years, with new track), with only interlevel crossings and exits, average speed of 80/100, and wide lanes. It is possible bikes or agricultural vehicles would be prohibited in these kind of ways.
primary: 3,2-lane main roads, with crossings at the same level, average speed of 60/80, and wide lanes. All traffic should be allowed.
secondary: 3,2-lane roads, connecting small territories, crossings at the same level, always with road marks , average speed of 50/60, acceptable width per lane.
tertiary : 2-1-lane roads, with reference, it is not necessary to have road marks, average speed of minus than 50, it is not necessary to have the width of 2cars.
We want also to use governments data like average speed and average daily traffic (ADT) . Objective data should be consulted to take these decisions. We want to take consideration of all "Country government roads" that have big motorways near to make lower they category. In the reference we will always have the administrative classification like N- Country C- State L-Local and others like CV-V for the town. One road can be trunk at first kilometers with good track, etc. and then when sharing track with the free motorway can be tertiary.
We also aware Spain is not the same as Australia or Africa , we know classification criteria cannot be the same due to physical conditions in other countries. But some of them we want a real and objective , non-repetitive classification criteria (using letters of the reference and the same classification in OSM is the same, talking administratively) for tagging Spanish Roads in Openstreetmap.

Salut i carreteres (Health and roads)
yopaseopor


On Sun, Aug 11, 2019 at 11:37 PM Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Sun, 11 Aug 2019 at 22:10, Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]> wrote:

In Australia, it's not uncommon for a Primary (& in some cases, Trunk!) road to be a single lane dirt road!, & it would be nice to be able to show them with the importance that they are to local residents of that area. 

There appear to be two schools of thought on this.  One is that if it is the only road between A
and B then it is a primary road, even if it's a single-lane dirt track.  The other is to adopt
a consistent country (or state, or region) wide classification, preferably adhering to official
classification if there is any, which might mean that the only road between A and B is a
secondary, tertiary or even quaternary road.

I favour the latter approach.  If there is only one single-lane track between A and B then
it is obviously of importance to those in the area without it needing to be emphasised by
a different colour.  Whereas rendering it as a primary road will mislead some people
planning a cross-country trip into think it's paved highway all the way, including the
final part of their trip from A to B.

I suggest that before you decide which approach best suits your country you first check
if there is a governmental classification scheme of highways.  It appears that, for Australia,
things are rather inconsistent across the states and territories and have changed over
the years.  Nevertheless, alphanumeric designations are now common amongst most
states and territories and the meaning of those designations can be found at
After examining that, then make your decision as to whether or not the OSM map ought
to reflect official designations or do its own thing.  And then discuss it in whatever forum
Australian mappers use and see if you can get a consensus agreeing with you.

--
Paul

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Re: Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

Peter Elderson
In reply to this post by Graeme Fitzpatrick
That would be for the Australian mapping community to decide, to document and to implement.

Mvg Peter Elderson

Op 11 aug. 2019 om 23:08 heeft Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]> het volgende geschreven:



On Mon, 12 Aug 2019 at 05:04, Paul Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Sun, Aug 11, 2019 at 1:35 PM Peter Elderson <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm sure the hierarchy trunk/primary/secondary/tertiary/<something_else>/residential with a side of service types is general enough that all countries can map their own system to it. I feel no need to force any country's own system upon any other country, or to make it the same all over the world. 

I largely agree.  I wouldn't mind country-specific values similar to the advantage that the UK has on this as previously stated, then let the wiki work out what counts as largely equivalent in character for the renderers to work with.  I feel like that would help a lot on the front and back end of it.

So how do you go about setting country-specific values?

In Australia, it's not uncommon for a Primary (& in some cases, Trunk!) road to be a single lane dirt road!, & it would be nice to be able to show them with the importance that they are to local residents of that area.  

Is it simply a matter of specifying road types under the "Australia" page & hoping that people read them?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

Warin
On 12/08/19 15:38, Peter Elderson wrote:
That would be for the Australian mapping community to decide, to document and to implement.

There is already some guidance for Australian roads https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines#Road_Tagging

And not to forget the East African guide https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/East_Africa_Tagging_Guidelines#Road_classification

Mvg Peter Elderson

Op 11 aug. 2019 om 23:08 heeft Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]> het volgende geschreven:



On Mon, 12 Aug 2019 at 05:04, Paul Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Sun, Aug 11, 2019 at 1:35 PM Peter Elderson <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm sure the hierarchy trunk/primary/secondary/tertiary/<something_else>/residential with a side of service types is general enough that all countries can map their own system to it. I feel no need to force any country's own system upon any other country, or to make it the same all over the world. 

I largely agree.  I wouldn't mind country-specific values similar to the advantage that the UK has on this as previously stated, then let the wiki work out what counts as largely equivalent in character for the renderers to work with.  I feel like that would help a lot on the front and back end of it.

So how do you go about setting country-specific values?

In Australia, it's not uncommon for a Primary (& in some cases, Trunk!) road to be a single lane dirt road!, & it would be nice to be able to show them with the importance that they are to local residents of that area.  

Is it simply a matter of specifying road types under the "Australia" page & hoping that people read them?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

Paul Allen
In reply to this post by yo paseopor
On Mon, 12 Aug 2019 at 01:20, yo paseopor <[hidden email]> wrote:

trunk: 4,3,2-lane new roads (newer than twenty years, with new track), with only interlevel crossings and exits, average speed of 80/100, and wide lanes. It is possible bikes or agricultural vehicles would be prohibited in these kind of ways.

Those sound like highway=motorway to me.  However, I'm not sure what you mean by
interlevel crossings and exits.  But if they really are trunks rather than motorways, from what
I've found in a brief search, Spain does have motorways but your scheme doesn't mention
them.

From what I've found (which may be wrong or I've misinterpreted it) autopistas are
highway=motorway.  Autovias are harder to categorize, but seem to be theoretically
highway=trunk even though in practise some of the newer autovias seem
indistinguishable from highway=motorway in terms of construction and traffic
regulations.

--
Paul


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Re: Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

> On 12. Aug 2019, at 12:32, Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> From what I've found (which may be wrong or I've misinterpreted it) autopistas are
> highway=motorway.  Autovias are harder to categorize, but seem to be theoretically
> highway=trunk even though in practise some of the newer autovias seem
> indistinguishable from highway=motorway in terms of construction and traffic
> regulations.


if I don’t interpret this wrong, in Germany and Italy we are using the motorroad=yes qualifier for what appears to be called autovia in Spain (motorway like access restrictions). We are further using highway=trunk for all roads that are similar to motorways (no grade level intersections, ramps) but are not legally motorways. trunk and motorroad are orthogonal properties/classes.

Cheers Martin
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Re: Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

Paul Allen


On Mon, 12 Aug 2019 at 14:07, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:

if I don’t interpret this wrong, in Germany and Italy we are using the motorroad=yes qualifier for what appears to be called autovia in Spain (motorway like access restrictions).

Sounds about right.  Wikipedia's generic term for motorways/freeways/autobahns etc. is
 
We are further using highway=trunk for all roads that are similar to motorways (no grade level intersections, ramps) but are not legally motorways. trunk and motorroad are orthogonal properties/classes.

Having looked further into it, the Spanish autovias most often resemble what we in the UK
call "dual carriageways" in construction and legal constraints.  Dual carriageways are usually
trunk roads here.

When it comes to lesser roads, the distinction between primary and secondary isn't solely
about width, straightness, number of junctions, etc. but also depends upon other
considerations such as whether or not there are alternative routes, the size of the places
they connect, etc.  The way in which those factors are balanced by bureaucrats is somewhat
opaque.  There may be secondary roads connecting unimportant locations that are as good
as, or even better than, some primary roads.

Where a country-wide classification exists, it is usual for this to be reflected in the
numbering scheme and the signage.  In the UK it may not be readily apparent whether
a road is a trunk or a primary since they'll both be "A" roads with the same style of
signage, but there's an obvious difference in signage between A roads and B roads, and
between either of those and motorways.  It's not just the letter designating them, but
also the colour and shape of signs that distinguishes them.

In a country where the government has classified roads in this way, it doesn't seem like
a good idea for mappers to use their own subjective judgement to decide which road is
a primary and a secondary.  The bureaucrats have traffic statistics that we do not.  And
even if the bureaucrats are wrong (by some objective standard), the fact is that all the
signage reflects what the bureaucrats say and not what one of us happens to think.

A tagging scheme that doesn't reflect the signage seems to me to be somewhat
sub-optimal.  Especially when we can add tags for number of lanes, speed limits,
etc. that allow routers to make more refined decisions than relying only on the
road classification.

--
Paul


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Re: Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

On 12. Aug 2019, at 15:36, Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:

Where a country-wide classification exists, it is usual for this to be reflected in the
numbering scheme and the signage. 


people are often writing about this, but from the German situation, where I have been digging deeper, I can tell you that there is not just one classification with numbering scheme (this is what everyone can easily see on the ground, but it only reflects who is in charge of maintenance, and not the standards of the road). The scheme that is the more interesting and more in line with osm highway classes are the parameters used to decide on the layout and design the highway. They are looking at the importance of the connection, the function and the context, the rules are more complex and cannot be seen on the ground in the form of signs or numbers. Unfortunately these technical standards are not even publicly available for free, you would have to pay in order to get them.

I would expect many countries having similarly different systems, the signposted system of numbered routes, and a more detailed, internal system which is about the importance, function and resulting design and layout of the road.

There are a lot of standards, plans, etc. and the process to build a new road is quite complex (because besides technical requirements it also has to deal with politics like people living along the new road, funding, changing priorities or majorities during the planning and construction process, etc.), a long list of somehow road related standards in Germany can be found here for reference, and while it is mostly about technical details, there are also some more general documents listed:


For the highway classes I would consider this the relevant standards/guidelines:

(~guidelines for integrated network design)

You can get a glimpse into the table of contents here: http://www.fgsv-verlag.de/catalog/_pdf-files/121.i.pdf


TL;DR;
Just because you only see a simple system for road numbering on the ground (like motorway, national, regional, local) doesn’t mean your government doesn’t use much more complex mechanisms to plan, build and maintain roads and the road network.

Cheers Martin 

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Re: Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

Paul Allen
On Mon, 12 Aug 2019 at 15:31, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:

TL;DR;
Just because you only see a simple system for road numbering on the ground (like motorway, national, regional, local) doesn’t mean your government doesn’t use much more complex mechanisms to plan, build and maintain roads and the road network.

Which is a brief summary of part of the point I made.  However, the other part was that even if
all of those internal planning rules are available, the decisions made may not be entirely
predictable (especially if we don't have access to traffic statistics) and the only objectively
verifiable data we have is the signage.  If your country's government indicates with signs
that a road as a primary route then that is what it is.  If your country doesn't have official road
classifications then you'll have to use your judgement.

--
Paul


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