Code of Conduct Reminder

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Code of Conduct Reminder

Dale Kunce
Earlier today someone on this list made some rude and disparaging remarks about the iD developers. This is not the first time an outside supporting group has been attacked by members of this list. Your words have meaning. Your words can have far greater impact than you believe. One individual, not elected, can have a huge negative impact that directly affects HOT's mission. 

One of HOT's biggest fans and supporters has unsubscribed from this list, rightly so, because of these attacks. The individual was and is key to helping the OSM community with important technology tools that we need to map better.

I would like to take this opportunity to remind everyone of the Code of Conduct https://www.hotosm.org/hot_code_of_conduct. It will be enforced and offenders will be asked to leave our community if you cannot help us form a positive welcoming community. The Code of Conduct is not for some special group to enforce the power of a strong CoC lies with the community to enforce good positive communication norms.

Thanks

--
sent from my mobile device

Dale Kunce


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Re: Code of Conduct Reminder

nicolas chavent
Dear all HOT Us Inc members, subscribers of the hot at openstreetmap mailing-list and OSMF members,

There's is something weird in Dale Kunce (HOT US Inc President and OSMF member) in this email announcing that the HOT US Inc Code of Conduct https://www.hotosm.org/hot_code_of_conduct will be enforced on the hot at openstreetmap mailing-list (an OpenStreetMap mailing list to discuss uses of OSM in the humanitarian and development sectors [1]) which like other OpenStreetMap thematic mailing lists [2] (software development, tagging etc ...) and other discussions fora (wiki, forum etc) belong to the commons of the OpenStreetMap project and is regulated via the OSMF and the OSM members and is yet not subject to agreed upon and enforced CoC as reminded by the last OSMF election discussions [3].

It would be beneficial for the regulations of the OpenStreetMap commons, that the President of HOT US Inc refrain from enforcing his own organization's conversational policy and procedures (which has never been voted by the HOT US Inc membership) over an OSM mailing list and narrow his focus and actions on the resources of his own organizations (membership mailing list, tools etc) or the conversations of the HOT US Inc membership.
It would also be beneficial to assess and look at the moderation of the hot at openstreetmap mailing-list from a non HOT US Inc only perspective, shall we want this list to be the mailing list of anyone OpenStreeMap members (and not yet members) interested into the use of OpenStreetMap diversified and decentralized and not the list of only-one organization of the OpenStreetMap ecosystem active across the humanitarian and development sectors.  

Best,
Nicolas

[1]: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
[2]: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
[3]: https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/2017-December/subject.html


On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 7:38 PM, Dale Kunce <[hidden email]> wrote:
Earlier today someone on this list made some rude and disparaging remarks about the iD developers. This is not the first time an outside supporting group has been attacked by members of this list. Your words have meaning. Your words can have far greater impact than you believe. One individual, not elected, can have a huge negative impact that directly affects HOT's mission. 

One of HOT's biggest fans and supporters has unsubscribed from this list, rightly so, because of these attacks. The individual was and is key to helping the OSM community with important technology tools that we need to map better.

I would like to take this opportunity to remind everyone of the Code of Conduct https://www.hotosm.org/hot_code_of_conduct. It will be enforced and offenders will be asked to leave our community if you cannot help us form a positive welcoming community. The Code of Conduct is not for some special group to enforce the power of a strong CoC lies with the community to enforce good positive communication norms.

Thanks

--
sent from my mobile device

Dale Kunce


_______________________________________________
HOT mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot




--
Nicolas Chavent
Les Libres Géographes
Projet OpenStreetMap (OSM)
Projet Espace OSM Francophone (EOF)
Projet GeOrchestra
Mobile (FR): +33 (0)6 52 40 78 20
Mobile (Bénin): +22962 55 85 91
Email: [hidden email]
Skype: c_nicolas
Twitter: nicolas_chavent

_______________________________________________
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Re: [Osmf-talk] Code of Conduct Reminder

Mikel Maron-3
Sure, a simple clarification. The OSMF hosted mailing lists fall under the etiquette and moderation guidelines at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Etiquette. The HOT Code of Conduct applies to different domains and set of actors, most especially Voting Members of HOT. 

* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron


On Thursday, December 14, 2017, 12:43:16 PM EST, nicolas chavent <[hidden email]> wrote:


Dear all HOT Us Inc members, subscribers of the hot at openstreetmap mailing-list and OSMF members,

There's is something weird in Dale Kunce (HOT US Inc President and OSMF member) in this email announcing that the HOT US Inc Code of Conduct https://www.hotosm.org/hot_ code_of_conduct will be enforced on the hot at openstreetmap mailing-list (an OpenStreetMap mailing list to discuss uses of OSM in the humanitarian and development sectors [1]) which like other OpenStreetMap thematic mailing lists [2] (software development, tagging etc ...) and other discussions fora (wiki, forum etc) belong to the commons of the OpenStreetMap project and is regulated via the OSMF and the OSM members and is yet not subject to agreed upon and enforced CoC as reminded by the last OSMF election discussions [3].

It would be beneficial for the regulations of the OpenStreetMap commons, that the President of HOT US Inc refrain from enforcing his own organization's conversational policy and procedures (which has never been voted by the HOT US Inc membership) over an OSM mailing list and narrow his focus and actions on the resources of his own organizations (membership mailing list, tools etc) or the conversations of the HOT US Inc membership.
It would also be beneficial to assess and look at the moderation of the hot at openstreetmap mailing-list from a non HOT US Inc only perspective, shall we want this list to be the mailing list of anyone OpenStreeMap members (and not yet members) interested into the use of OpenStreetMap diversified and decentralized and not the list of only-one organization of the OpenStreetMap ecosystem active across the humanitarian and development sectors.  

Best,
Nicolas

[1]: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
[2]: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
[3]: https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/2017-December/subject.html


On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 7:38 PM, Dale Kunce <[hidden email]> wrote:
Earlier today someone on this list made some rude and disparaging remarks about the iD developers. This is not the first time an outside supporting group has been attacked by members of this list. Your words have meaning. Your words can have far greater impact than you believe. One individual, not elected, can have a huge negative impact that directly affects HOT's mission. 

One of HOT's biggest fans and supporters has unsubscribed from this list, rightly so, because of these attacks. The individual was and is key to helping the OSM community with important technology tools that we need to map better.

I would like to take this opportunity to remind everyone of the Code of Conduct https://www.hotosm.org/hot_ code_of_conduct. It will be enforced and offenders will be asked to leave our community if you cannot help us form a positive welcoming community. The Code of Conduct is not for some special group to enforce the power of a strong CoC lies with the community to enforce good positive communication norms.

Thanks

--
sent from my mobile device

Dale Kunce


______________________________ _________________
HOT mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap. org/listinfo/hot




--
Nicolas Chavent
Les Libres Géographes
Projet OpenStreetMap (OSM)
Projet Espace OSM Francophone (EOF)
Projet GeOrchestra
Mobile (FR): +33 (0)6 52 40 78 20
Mobile (Bénin): +22962 55 85 91
Email: [hidden email]
Skype: c_nicolas
Twitter: nicolas_chavent
_______________________________________________
osmf-talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk

_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
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Re: [Osmf-talk] Code of Conduct Reminder

Phil Wyatt

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Etiquette

 

From: Mikel Maron [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, December 15, 2017 5:21 AM
To: Dale Kunce; hot; OSMF Talk; nicolas chavent
Subject: Re: [HOT] [Osmf-talk] Code of Conduct Reminder

 

Sure, a simple clarification. The OSMF hosted mailing lists fall under the etiquette and moderation guidelines at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Etiquette. The HOT Code of Conduct applies to different domains and set of actors, most especially Voting Members of HOT. 

 

* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron

 

 

On Thursday, December 14, 2017, 12:43:16 PM EST, nicolas chavent <[hidden email]> wrote:

 

 

Dear all HOT Us Inc members, subscribers of the hot at openstreetmap mailing-list and OSMF members,

There's is something weird in Dale Kunce (HOT US Inc President and OSMF member) in this email announcing that the HOT US Inc Code of Conduct https://www.hotosm.org/hot_ code_of_conduct will be enforced on the hot at openstreetmap mailing-list (an OpenStreetMap mailing list to discuss uses of OSM in the humanitarian and development sectors [1]) which like other OpenStreetMap thematic mailing lists [2] (software development, tagging etc ...) and other discussions fora (wiki, forum etc) belong to the commons of the OpenStreetMap project and is regulated via the OSMF and the OSM members and is yet not subject to agreed upon and enforced CoC as reminded by the last OSMF election discussions [3].

It would be beneficial for the regulations of the OpenStreetMap commons, that the President of HOT US Inc refrain from enforcing his own organization's conversational policy and procedures (which has never been voted by the HOT US Inc membership) over an OSM mailing list and narrow his focus and actions on the resources of his own organizations (membership mailing list, tools etc) or the conversations of the HOT US Inc membership.

It would also be beneficial to assess and look at the moderation of the hot at openstreetmap mailing-list from a non HOT US Inc only perspective, shall we want this list to be the mailing list of anyone OpenStreeMap members (and not yet members) interested into the use of OpenStreetMap diversified and decentralized and not the list of only-one organization of the OpenStreetMap ecosystem active across the humanitarian and development sectors.  

 

Best,

Nicolas

 

[1]: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
[2]: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
[3]: https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/2017-December/subject.html

 

On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 7:38 PM, Dale Kunce <[hidden email]> wrote:

Earlier today someone on this list made some rude and disparaging remarks about the iD developers. This is not the first time an outside supporting group has been attacked by members of this list. Your words have meaning. Your words can have far greater impact than you believe. One individual, not elected, can have a huge negative impact that directly affects HOT's mission. 

 

One of HOT's biggest fans and supporters has unsubscribed from this list, rightly so, because of these attacks. The individual was and is key to helping the OSM community with important technology tools that we need to map better.

 

I would like to take this opportunity to remind everyone of the Code of Conduct https://www.hotosm.org/hot_ code_of_conduct. It will be enforced and offenders will be asked to leave our community if you cannot help us form a positive welcoming community. The Code of Conduct is not for some special group to enforce the power of a strong CoC lies with the community to enforce good positive communication norms.

 

Thanks

 

--

sent from my mobile device

 

Dale Kunce

 


______________________________ _________________
HOT mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap. org/listinfo/hot




--

Nicolas Chavent

Les Libres Géographes

Projet OpenStreetMap (OSM)

Projet Espace OSM Francophone (EOF)

Projet GeOrchestra

Mobile (FR): +33 (0)6 52 40 78 20

Mobile (Bénin): +22962 55 85 91
Email: [hidden email]
Skype: c_nicolas
Twitter: nicolas_chavent

_______________________________________________
osmf-talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk


_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
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Re: Code of Conduct Reminder

Milo van der Linden-5
In reply to this post by nicolas chavent
Could we ask the OSMF if we can set up a [hidden email] mailing list that is not subject of HOT restrictions and open to everyone under the same rules and regulations of other OSM mailinglists?

2017-12-14 18:40 GMT+01:00 nicolas chavent <[hidden email]>:
Dear all HOT Us Inc members, subscribers of the hot at openstreetmap mailing-list and OSMF members,

There's is something weird in Dale Kunce (HOT US Inc President and OSMF member) in this email announcing that the HOT US Inc Code of Conduct https://www.hotosm.org/hot_code_of_conduct will be enforced on the hot at openstreetmap mailing-list (an OpenStreetMap mailing list to discuss uses of OSM in the humanitarian and development sectors [1]) which like other OpenStreetMap thematic mailing lists [2] (software development, tagging etc ...) and other discussions fora (wiki, forum etc) belong to the commons of the OpenStreetMap project and is regulated via the OSMF and the OSM members and is yet not subject to agreed upon and enforced CoC as reminded by the last OSMF election discussions [3].

It would be beneficial for the regulations of the OpenStreetMap commons, that the President of HOT US Inc refrain from enforcing his own organization's conversational policy and procedures (which has never been voted by the HOT US Inc membership) over an OSM mailing list and narrow his focus and actions on the resources of his own organizations (membership mailing list, tools etc) or the conversations of the HOT US Inc membership.
It would also be beneficial to assess and look at the moderation of the hot at openstreetmap mailing-list from a non HOT US Inc only perspective, shall we want this list to be the mailing list of anyone OpenStreeMap members (and not yet members) interested into the use of OpenStreetMap diversified and decentralized and not the list of only-one organization of the OpenStreetMap ecosystem active across the humanitarian and development sectors.  

Best,
Nicolas

[1]: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
[2]: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
[3]: https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/2017-December/subject.html


On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 7:38 PM, Dale Kunce <[hidden email]> wrote:
Earlier today someone on this list made some rude and disparaging remarks about the iD developers. This is not the first time an outside supporting group has been attacked by members of this list. Your words have meaning. Your words can have far greater impact than you believe. One individual, not elected, can have a huge negative impact that directly affects HOT's mission. 

One of HOT's biggest fans and supporters has unsubscribed from this list, rightly so, because of these attacks. The individual was and is key to helping the OSM community with important technology tools that we need to map better.

I would like to take this opportunity to remind everyone of the Code of Conduct https://www.hotosm.org/hot_code_of_conduct. It will be enforced and offenders will be asked to leave our community if you cannot help us form a positive welcoming community. The Code of Conduct is not for some special group to enforce the power of a strong CoC lies with the community to enforce good positive communication norms.

Thanks

--
sent from my mobile device

Dale Kunce


_______________________________________________
HOT mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot




--
Nicolas Chavent
Les Libres Géographes
Projet OpenStreetMap (OSM)
Projet Espace OSM Francophone (EOF)
Projet GeOrchestra
Mobile (FR): <a href="tel:+33%206%2052%2040%2078%2020" value="+33652407820" target="_blank">+33 (0)6 52 40 78 20
Mobile (Bénin): <a href="tel:+229%2062%2055%2085%2091" value="+22962558591" target="_blank">+22962 55 85 91
Email: [hidden email]
Skype: c_nicolas
Twitter: nicolas_chavent

_______________________________________________
HOT mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot




--
http://www.dogodigi.net
Milo van der Linden
web: dogodigi
tel: +31-6-16598808

_______________________________________________
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Re: [Osmf-talk] [hotosm-membership] Re: Code of Conduct Reminder

Mikel Maron-3
The [hidden email] mailing list is not subject to any more restrictions than any other OSMF maintained list. It is not restricted to HOT members and partners, nor is it subject to HOT governance.

Here is my response from yesterday clarifying, in case you missed it.

> Sure, a simple clarification. The OSMF hosted mailing lists fall under the etiquette and moderation guidelines at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Etiquette. The HOT Code of Conduct applies to different domains and set of actors, most especially Voting Members of HOT. 

I don't see value in an additional mailing list myself, but rather encourage better and more intentional use of the resources we have.

* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron


On Friday, December 15, 2017, 6:54:56 AM EST, <[hidden email]> wrote:


Dear all,

This is actually another interesting topic!
If we move for a more general mailing list on international
development/humanitarian topics (not restricted to the HOT membership
and partners), I would suggest maybe not to use the "humanitarian" word
that is only describing a subset of this scope of activities.
Since development can be confusing with IT development, I would suggest
something like [hidden email]

However creating doesn't always do the trick: we've seen it with the
hot-francophone mailing list that was created to generate more exchanges
between Francophone countries (in particular Africa & Haiti) on
development topics and is not super successful because the communities
we wanted to exchange with are not big fans of mailing lists for
cultural reasons.

Best

Martin

On 15/12/2017 12:42, Milo van der Linden wrote:

> Could we ask the OSMF if we can set up a
> [hidden email] mailing list that is not subject of HOT
> restrictions and open to everyone under the same rules and regulations
> of other OSM mailinglists?
>
> 2017-12-14 18:40 GMT+01:00 nicolas chavent
> <[hidden email]>:
>
>> Dear all HOT Us Inc members, subscribers of the hot at openstreetmap
>> mailing-list and OSMF members,
>>
>> There's is something weird in Dale Kunce (HOT US Inc President and
>> OSMF member) in this email announcing that the HOT US Inc Code of
>> Conduct https://www.hotosm.org/hot_code_of_conduct [1] will be
>> enforced on the hot at openstreetmap mailing-list (an OpenStreetMap
>> mailing list to discuss uses of OSM in the humanitarian and
>> development sectors [1]) which like other OpenStreetMap thematic
>> mailing lists [2] (software development, tagging etc ...) and other
>> discussions fora (wiki, forum etc) belong to the commons of the
>> OpenStreetMap project and is regulated via the OSMF and the OSM
>> members and is yet not subject to agreed upon and enforced CoC as
>> reminded by the last OSMF election discussions [3].
>>
>> It would be beneficial for the regulations of the OpenStreetMap
>> commons, that the President of HOT US Inc refrain from enforcing his
>> own organization's conversational policy and procedures (which has
>> never been voted by the HOT US Inc membership) over an OSM mailing
>> list and narrow his focus and actions on the resources of his own
>> organizations (membership mailing list, tools etc) or the
>> conversations of the HOT US Inc membership.
>> It would also be beneficial to assess and look at the moderation of
>> the hot at openstreetmap mailing-list from a non HOT US Inc only
>> perspective, shall we want this list to be the mailing list of
>> anyone OpenStreeMap members (and not yet members) interested into
>> the use of OpenStreetMap diversified and decentralized and not the
>> list of only-one organization of the OpenStreetMap ecosystem active
>> across the humanitarian and development sectors.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Nicolas
>>
>> [1]: http://lists [3].openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>> [2]: http://wiki [4].openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>> [3]: https://lists
>> [5].openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/2017-December/subject.html
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 7:38 PM, Dale Kunce <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Earlier today someone on this list made some rude and disparaging
>>> remarks about the iD developers. This is not the first time an
>>> outside supporting group has been attacked by members of this
>>> list. Your words have meaning. Your words can have far greater
>>> impact than you believe. One individual, not elected, can have a
>>> huge negative impact that directly affects HOT's mission.
>>>
>>> One of HOT's biggest fans and supporters has unsubscribed from
>>> this list, rightly so, because of these attacks. The individual
>>> was and is key to helping the OSM community with important
>>> technology tools that we need to map better.
>>>
>>> I would like to take this opportunity to remind everyone of the
>>> Code of Conduct https://www.hotosm.org/hot_code_of_conduct [1]. It
>>> will be enforced and offenders will be asked to leave our
>>> community if you cannot help us form a positive welcoming
>>> community. The Code of Conduct is not for some special group to
>>> enforce the power of a strong CoC lies with the community to
>>> enforce good positive communication norms.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> sent from my mobile device
>>>
>>> Dale Kunce
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> HOT mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot [2]
>>
>> --
>>
>> Nicolas Chavent
>>
>> Les Libres Géographes
>>
>> Projet OpenStreetMap (OSM)
>>
>> Projet Espace OSM Francophone (EOF)
>>
>> Projet GeOrchestra
>>
>> Mobile (FR): +33 (0)6 52 40 78 20 [6]
>>
>> Mobile (Bénin): +22962 55 85 91 [7]
>> Email: [hidden email]
>> Skype: c_nicolas
>> Twitter: nicolas_chavent
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> HOT mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot [2]
>
> --
>
>          [8]
>
> MILO VAN DER LINDEN
>
> web: dogodigi [8]
> tel: +31-6-16598808
>
>  --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Membership" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to membership+[hidden email]
>
>
> Links:
> ------
> [1] https://www.hotosm.org/hot_code_of_conduct
> [2] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
> [3] http://lists
> [4] http://wiki
> [5] https://lists
> [6] tel:+33%206%2052%2040%2078%2020
> [7] tel:+229%2062%2055%2085%2091

> [8]
http://www.dogodigi.net


_______________________________________________
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Re: [hotosm-membership] Re: Code of Conduct Reminder

Blake Girardot
In reply to this post by Milo van der Linden-5
On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 12:42 PM, Milo van der Linden <[hidden email]> wrote:
Could we ask the OSMF if we can set up a [hidden email] mailing list that is not subject of HOT restrictions and open to everyone under the same rules and regulations of other OSM mailinglists?


Hi Milo,

I think this is a very good idea.

Thank you for suggesting this idea.

cheers
blake 

--
----------------------------------------------------
Blake Girardot
OSM Wiki - https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Bgirardot
HOTOSM Member - https://hotosm.org/users/blake_girardot
skype: jblakegirardot

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Re: [Osmf-talk] [hotosm-membership] Re: Code of Conduct Reminder

Mapa Nauta
In reply to this post by Mikel Maron-3
It will be great if we don't open more mailing lists and we try to collaborate and unify efforts in the current lists

Thanks,

M

On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 6:07 AM, Mikel Maron <[hidden email]> wrote:
The [hidden email] mailing list is not subject to any more restrictions than any other OSMF maintained list. It is not restricted to HOT members and partners, nor is it subject to HOT governance.

Here is my response from yesterday clarifying, in case you missed it.

> Sure, a simple clarification. The OSMF hosted mailing lists fall under the etiquette and moderation guidelines at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Etiquette. The HOT Code of Conduct applies to different domains and set of actors, most especially Voting Members of HOT. 

I don't see value in an additional mailing list myself, but rather encourage better and more intentional use of the resources we have.

* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron


On Friday, December 15, 2017, 6:54:56 AM EST, <[hidden email]> wrote:


Dear all,

This is actually another interesting topic!
If we move for a more general mailing list on international
development/humanitarian topics (not restricted to the HOT membership
and partners), I would suggest maybe not to use the "humanitarian" word
that is only describing a subset of this scope of activities.
Since development can be confusing with IT development, I would suggest
something like [hidden email]

However creating doesn't always do the trick: we've seen it with the
hot-francophone mailing list that was created to generate more exchanges
between Francophone countries (in particular Africa & Haiti) on
development topics and is not super successful because the communities
we wanted to exchange with are not big fans of mailing lists for
cultural reasons.

Best

Martin

On 15/12/2017 12:42, Milo van der Linden wrote:

> Could we ask the OSMF if we can set up a
> [hidden email] mailing list that is not subject of HOT
> restrictions and open to everyone under the same rules and regulations
> of other OSM mailinglists?
>
> 2017-12-14 18:40 GMT+01:00 nicolas chavent
> <[hidden email]>:
>
>> Dear all HOT Us Inc members, subscribers of the hot at openstreetmap
>> mailing-list and OSMF members,
>>
>> There's is something weird in Dale Kunce (HOT US Inc President and
>> OSMF member) in this email announcing that the HOT US Inc Code of
>> Conduct https://www.hotosm.org/hot_code_of_conduct [1] will be
>> enforced on the hot at openstreetmap mailing-list (an OpenStreetMap
>> mailing list to discuss uses of OSM in the humanitarian and
>> development sectors [1]) which like other OpenStreetMap thematic
>> mailing lists [2] (software development, tagging etc ...) and other
>> discussions fora (wiki, forum etc) belong to the commons of the
>> OpenStreetMap project and is regulated via the OSMF and the OSM
>> members and is yet not subject to agreed upon and enforced CoC as
>> reminded by the last OSMF election discussions [3].
>>
>> It would be beneficial for the regulations of the OpenStreetMap
>> commons, that the President of HOT US Inc refrain from enforcing his
>> own organization's conversational policy and procedures (which has
>> never been voted by the HOT US Inc membership) over an OSM mailing
>> list and narrow his focus and actions on the resources of his own
>> organizations (membership mailing list, tools etc) or the
>> conversations of the HOT US Inc membership.
>> It would also be beneficial to assess and look at the moderation of
>> the hot at openstreetmap mailing-list from a non HOT US Inc only
>> perspective, shall we want this list to be the mailing list of
>> anyone OpenStreeMap members (and not yet members) interested into
>> the use of OpenStreetMap diversified and decentralized and not the
>> list of only-one organization of the OpenStreetMap ecosystem active
>> across the humanitarian and development sectors.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Nicolas
>>
>> [1]: http://lists [3].openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>> [2]: http://wiki [4].openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>> [3]: https://lists
>> [5].openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/2017-December/subject.html
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 7:38 PM, Dale Kunce <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Earlier today someone on this list made some rude and disparaging
>>> remarks about the iD developers. This is not the first time an
>>> outside supporting group has been attacked by members of this
>>> list. Your words have meaning. Your words can have far greater
>>> impact than you believe. One individual, not elected, can have a
>>> huge negative impact that directly affects HOT's mission.
>>>
>>> One of HOT's biggest fans and supporters has unsubscribed from
>>> this list, rightly so, because of these attacks. The individual
>>> was and is key to helping the OSM community with important
>>> technology tools that we need to map better.
>>>
>>> I would like to take this opportunity to remind everyone of the
>>> Code of Conduct https://www.hotosm.org/hot_code_of_conduct [1]. It
>>> will be enforced and offenders will be asked to leave our
>>> community if you cannot help us form a positive welcoming
>>> community. The Code of Conduct is not for some special group to
>>> enforce the power of a strong CoC lies with the community to
>>> enforce good positive communication norms.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> sent from my mobile device
>>>
>>> Dale Kunce
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> HOT mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot [2]
>>
>> --
>>
>> Nicolas Chavent
>>
>> Les Libres Géographes
>>
>> Projet OpenStreetMap (OSM)
>>
>> Projet Espace OSM Francophone (EOF)
>>
>> Projet GeOrchestra
>>
>> Mobile (FR): +33 (0)6 52 40 78 20 [6]
>>
>> Mobile (Bénin): +22962 55 85 91 [7]
>> Email: [hidden email]
>> Skype: c_nicolas
>> Twitter: nicolas_chavent
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> HOT mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot [2]
>
> --
>
>          [8]
>
> MILO VAN DER LINDEN
>
> web: dogodigi [8]
> tel: +31-6-16598808
>
>  --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Membership" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to membership+[hidden email]
>
>
> Links:
> ------
> [1] https://www.hotosm.org/hot_code_of_conduct
> [2] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
> [3] http://lists
> [4] http://wiki
> [5] https://lists
> [6] tel:+33%206%2052%2040%2078%2020
> [7] tel:+229%2062%2055%2085%2091

> [8]
http://www.dogodigi.net


_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
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_______________________________________________
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--
_______________
Saludos y gracias,

Mapanauta

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Re: [Osmf-talk] [hotosm-membership] Re: Code of Conduct Reminder

Rafael Avila Coya
Hi Miriam:

I agree with you: I don't see the need to open yet another mailing list
(although I will be happy if some decide to open a new one anyway), and
to try to collaborate and unify efforts.

But this thread was started by Dale Kunce, President of HOT US inc, who
says things like "I would like to take this opportunity to remind
everyone of the Code of Conduct
https://www.hotosm.org/hot_code_of_conduct. It will be enforced and
offenders will be asked to leave our community", when OSM hasn't got any
CoC.

That's quite worrying. And this makes me even more sure of what I said
in another email:

"Any code of conduct will make people more or less autocensure. I can't
see any interest of having that thing, unless for control."

Etiquette is just a series of guidelines that, as far as I know, have
never been enforced by anyone. Correct me if I am wrong.

See for example the different answers to Ralf Stephan email [1]:

One user simply answered his question, saying a fast way to mass square
buildings.

Another said he was offensive, and that any user (whether (s)he uses iD
or JOSM or any other editor) is free not to square buildings anyway.

Me myself I thought his "I hate iD devs." just meant that not having a
tool to easily create squared buildings in iD is a bad thing
(disclaimer: I consider iD a good editor, with his pros and cons, and
that can be improved, like JOSM and other editors, although I seldom use
it - I prefer JOSM).

But others, including Dale Kunce, started to say that CoC would be
applied, regardless of not being a list under the control of HOT US
inc., and that's unacceptable. At least while OSM community is not under
the rule of HOT's CoC.

Have all a wonderfull (and plenty of freedom of speech) weekend,

Rafael.

[1] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/hot/2017-December/014063.html

On 15/12/17 17:25, Miriam Mapanauta wrote:

> It will be great if we don't open more mailing lists and we try to
> collaborate and unify efforts in the current lists
>
> Thanks,
>
> M
>
> On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 6:07 AM, Mikel Maron <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     The [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> mailing
>     list is not subject to any more restrictions than any other OSMF
>     maintained list. It is not restricted to HOT members and partners,
>     nor is it subject to HOT governance.
>
>     Here is my response from yesterday clarifying, in case you missed it.
>
>     > Sure, a simple clarification. The OSMF hosted mailing lists fall under the etiquette and moderation guidelines at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Etiquette.
>     <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Etiquette.> The HOT Code of
>     Conduct applies to different domains and set of actors, most
>     especially Voting Members of HOT.
>
>     I don't see value in an additional mailing list myself, but rather
>     encourage better and more intentional use of the resources we have.
>
>     * Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron
>
>
>     On Friday, December 15, 2017, 6:54:56 AM EST, <[hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>
>     Dear all,
>
>     This is actually another interesting topic!
>     If we move for a more general mailing list on international
>     development/humanitarian topics (not restricted to the HOT membership
>     and partners), I would suggest maybe not to use the "humanitarian" word
>     that is only describing a subset of this scope of activities.
>     Since development can be confusing with IT development, I would suggest
>     something like [hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>
>
>     However creating doesn't always do the trick: we've seen it with the
>     hot-francophone mailing list that was created to generate more
>     exchanges
>     between Francophone countries (in particular Africa & Haiti) on
>     development topics and is not super successful because the communities
>     we wanted to exchange with are not big fans of mailing lists for
>     cultural reasons.
>
>     Best
>
>     Martin
>
>     On 15/12/2017 12:42, Milo van der Linden wrote:
>      > Could we ask the OSMF if we can set up a
>      > [hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]> mailing list that is not
>     subject of HOT
>      > restrictions and open to everyone under the same rules and
>     regulations
>      > of other OSM mailinglists?
>      >
>      > 2017-12-14 18:40 GMT+01:00 nicolas chavent
>      > <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>:
>      >
>      >> Dear all HOT Us Inc members, subscribers of the hot at openstreetmap
>      >> mailing-list and OSMF members,
>      >>
>      >> There's is something weird in Dale Kunce (HOT US Inc President and
>      >> OSMF member) in this email announcing that the HOT US Inc Code of
>      >> Conduct https://www.hotosm.org/hot_code_of_conduct
>     <https://www.hotosm.org/hot_code_of_conduct>[1] will be
>      >> enforced on the hot at openstreetmap mailing-list (an OpenStreetMap
>      >> mailing list to discuss uses of OSM in the humanitarian and
>      >> development sectors [1]) which like other OpenStreetMap thematic
>      >> mailing lists [2] (software development, tagging etc ...) and other
>      >> discussions fora (wiki, forum etc) belong to the commons of the
>      >> OpenStreetMap project and is regulated via the OSMF and the OSM
>      >> members and is yet not subject to agreed upon and enforced CoC as
>      >> reminded by the last OSMF election discussions [3].
>      >>
>      >> It would be beneficial for the regulations of the OpenStreetMap
>      >> commons, that the President of HOT US Inc refrain from enforcing his
>      >> own organization's conversational policy and procedures (which has
>      >> never been voted by the HOT US Inc membership) over an OSM mailing
>      >> list and narrow his focus and actions on the resources of his own
>      >> organizations (membership mailing list, tools etc) or the
>      >> conversations of the HOT US Inc membership.
>      >> It would also be beneficial to assess and look at the moderation of
>      >> the hot at openstreetmap mailing-list from a non HOT US Inc only
>      >> perspective, shall we want this list to be the mailing list of
>      >> anyone OpenStreeMap members (and not yet members) interested into
>      >> the use of OpenStreetMap diversified and decentralized and not the
>      >> list of only-one organization of the OpenStreetMap ecosystem active
>      >> across the humanitarian and development sectors.
>      >>
>      >> Best,
>      >>
>      >> Nicolas
>      >>
>      >> [1]: http://lists
>     <http://lists>[3].openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>     <http://openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot>
>      >> [2]: http://wiki
>     <http://wiki>[4].openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>     <http://openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mailing_lists>
>      >> [3]: https://lists
>      >>
>     [5].openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/2017-December/subject.html
>     <http://openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/2017-December/subject.html>
>      >>
>      >> On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 7:38 PM, Dale Kunce
>     <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>      >> wrote:
>      >>
>      >>> Earlier today someone on this list made some rude and disparaging
>      >>> remarks about the iD developers. This is not the first time an
>      >>> outside supporting group has been attacked by members of this
>      >>> list. Your words have meaning. Your words can have far greater
>      >>> impact than you believe. One individual, not elected, can have a
>      >>> huge negative impact that directly affects HOT's mission.
>      >>>
>      >>> One of HOT's biggest fans and supporters has unsubscribed from
>      >>> this list, rightly so, because of these attacks. The individual
>      >>> was and is key to helping the OSM community with important
>      >>> technology tools that we need to map better.
>      >>>
>      >>> I would like to take this opportunity to remind everyone of the
>      >>> Code of Conduct https://www.hotosm.org/hot_code_of_conduct
>     <https://www.hotosm.org/hot_code_of_conduct>[1]. It
>      >>> will be enforced and offenders will be asked to leave our
>      >>> community if you cannot help us form a positive welcoming
>      >>> community. The Code of Conduct is not for some special group to
>      >>> enforce the power of a strong CoC lies with the community to
>      >>> enforce good positive communication norms.
>      >>>
>      >>> Thanks
>      >>>
>      >>> --
>      >>>
>      >>> sent from my mobile device
>      >>>
>      >>> Dale Kunce
>      >>>
>      >>> _______________________________________________
>      >>> HOT mailing list
>      >>> [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>      >>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>     <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot>[2]
>      >>
>      >> --
>      >>
>      >> Nicolas Chavent
>      >>
>      >> Les Libres Géographes
>      >>
>      >> Projet OpenStreetMap (OSM)
>      >>
>      >> Projet Espace OSM Francophone (EOF)
>      >>
>      >> Projet GeOrchestra
>      >>
>      >> Mobile (FR): +33 (0)6 52 40 78 20 [6]
>      >>
>      >> Mobile (Bénin): +22962 55 85 91 [7]
>      >> Email: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>      >> Skype: c_nicolas
>      >> Twitter: nicolas_chavent
>      >>
>      >> _______________________________________________
>      >> HOT mailing list
>      >> [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>      >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>     <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot>[2]
>      >
>      > --
>      >
>      >          [8]
>      >
>      > MILO VAN DER LINDEN
>      >
>      > web: dogodigi [8]
>      > tel: +31-6-16598808
>      >
>      >  --
>      > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>      > Groups "Membership" group.
>      > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>     send
>      > an email to [hidden email].
>     <mailto:[hidden email].>
>      >
>      >
>      > Links:
>      > ------
>      > [1] https://www.hotosm.org/hot_code_of_conduct
>     <https://www.hotosm.org/hot_code_of_conduct>
>      > [2] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>     <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot>
>      > [3] http://lists
>      > [4] http://wiki
>      > [5] https://lists
>      > [6] tel:+33%206%2052%2040%2078%2020
>      > [7] tel:+229%2062%2055%2085%2091
>
>      > [8]
>     http://www.dogodigi.net
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     osmf-talk mailing list
>     [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk
>     <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk>
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     osmf-talk mailing list
>     [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk
>     <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk>
>
>
>
>
> --
> _______________
> Saludos y gracias,
>
> Mapanauta
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> HOT mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>

_______________________________________________
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Re: [Osmf-talk] [hotosm-membership] Re: Code of Conduct Reminder

Dan S
Hi

It does seem to me that more clarity would be good here, i.e. slightly
disentangling the lines of accountability regarding the hot@ mailing
list.

Mikel's response has logical sense, but it's probably not clear to the
average participant in the hot@ mailing list whether they are
automatically made a part of the HOT community. Whether the best
clarification is to have two mailing lists, or for the info page
<https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot> to make clear whether
it is in general governed by HOT's rules, I don't know.

Best
Dan

_______________________________________________
HOT mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
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Re: [Osmf-talk] [hotosm-membership] Re: Code of Conduct Reminder

john whelan-2
>but it's probably not clear to the average participant in the hot@ mailing list whether they are automatically made a part of the HOT community.

I think there are two parts, those who subscribe to the current mailing list and the "inner clique" who are invited to become a HOT member.

Realistically HOT calls upon ordinary OSM mappers to assist things like the Ebola problem and the missing maps part using the tiles helps guide mapping so its probably just an image problem than anything else.

Cheerio John

On 15 December 2017 at 13:11, Dan S <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi

It does seem to me that more clarity would be good here, i.e. slightly
disentangling the lines of accountability regarding the hot@ mailing
list.

Mikel's response has logical sense, but it's probably not clear to the
average participant in the hot@ mailing list whether they are
automatically made a part of the HOT community. Whether the best
clarification is to have two mailing lists, or for the info page
<https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot> to make clear whether
it is in general governed by HOT's rules, I don't know.

Best
Dan

_______________________________________________
HOT mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot


_______________________________________________
HOT mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
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Re: [Osmf-talk] [hotosm-membership] Re: Code of Conduct Reminder

Rafael Avila Coya
In reply to this post by Dan S
Hi, Dan:

The thing here is that [hidden email] is, as far as I know, an
OSM mailing list, not HOT US inc.'s. I would find it weard that another
OSM mailing list was governed by the Red Cross, and that talk-es was
governed by the Spanish Government, for example.

Cheers,

Rafael.

On 15/12/17 19:11, Dan S wrote:

> Hi
>
> It does seem to me that more clarity would be good here, i.e. slightly
> disentangling the lines of accountability regarding the hot@ mailing
> list.
>
> Mikel's response has logical sense, but it's probably not clear to the
> average participant in the hot@ mailing list whether they are
> automatically made a part of the HOT community. Whether the best
> clarification is to have two mailing lists, or for the info page
> <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot> to make clear whether
> it is in general governed by HOT's rules, I don't know.
>
> Best
> Dan
>

_______________________________________________
HOT mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
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Re: [Osmf-talk] [hotosm-membership] Re: Code of Conduct Reminder

Community Working Group
In reply to this post by Dan S
Hi all,

I would prefer to participate in mailing lists that are governed by CoC and enforced by an organized group rather than individuals.

=Russ

-----Original Message-----
From: Dan S [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, December 15, 2017 11:11 AM
To: Rafael Avila Coya
Cc: [hidden email]; Mapa Nauta; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [HOT] [Osmf-talk] [hotosm-membership] Re: Code of Conduct Reminder

Hi

It does seem to me that more clarity would be good here, i.e. slightly
disentangling the lines of accountability regarding the hot@ mailing
list.

Mikel's response has logical sense, but it's probably not clear to the
average participant in the hot@ mailing list whether they are
automatically made a part of the HOT community. Whether the best
clarification is to have two mailing lists, or for the info page
<https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot> to make clear whether
it is in general governed by HOT's rules, I don't know.

Best
Dan

_______________________________________________
HOT mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot


_______________________________________________
HOT mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
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Re: [Osmf-talk] [hotosm-membership] Re: Code of Conduct Reminder

Pete Masters
In reply to this post by Rafael Avila Coya
Hi Rafael, I see your point about the CoC and ownership of the list. But that was only the third paragraph of Dale's email.

The fact remains that a person was told they are one of a hated group of people and left the list. It's a loss. Are we comfortable with that? Is it just the way it is and everyone has to live with it?

Personally, I am not comfortable with it and welcome further discussion.

Cheers,

Pete 



On 15 Dec 2017 18:24, "Rafael Avila Coya" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi, Dan:

The thing here is that [hidden email] is, as far as I know, an OSM mailing list, not HOT US inc.'s. I would find it weard that another OSM mailing list was governed by the Red Cross, and that talk-es was governed by the Spanish Government, for example.

Cheers,

Rafael.

On 15/12/17 19:11, Dan S wrote:
Hi

It does seem to me that more clarity would be good here, i.e. slightly
disentangling the lines of accountability regarding the hot@ mailing
list.

Mikel's response has logical sense, but it's probably not clear to the
average participant in the hot@ mailing list whether they are
automatically made a part of the HOT community. Whether the best
clarification is to have two mailing lists, or for the info page
<https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot> to make clear whether
it is in general governed by HOT's rules, I don't know.

Best
Dan


_______________________________________________
HOT mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot

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[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
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Re: [Osmf-talk] [hotosm-membership] Re: Code of Conduct Reminder

Dale Kunce
In reply to this post by Community Working Group
Just to clear the air. I misspoke in my initial post when I said the HOT CoC would be enforced on this list. I've since learned that the HOT list is not administered by HOT and thus our community crafted CoC does not apply here. Note: it does apply to all other HOT communication channels, including Tasking Manager, GitHub, slack, etc.

As Mikel said the existing OSM Etiquette rules, however, do apply in this space. 

My earlier statement of asking all community members of this list to think twice about what you say on this list. This is not an effort to curb free speech but instead to build a positive collaborative space to discuss.

On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 10:27 AM, Russell Deffner <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi all,

I would prefer to participate in mailing lists that are governed by CoC and enforced by an organized group rather than individuals.

=Russ

-----Original Message-----
From: Dan S [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, December 15, 2017 11:11 AM
To: Rafael Avila Coya
Cc: [hidden email]; Mapa Nauta; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [HOT] [Osmf-talk] [hotosm-membership] Re: Code of Conduct Reminder

Hi

It does seem to me that more clarity would be good here, i.e. slightly
disentangling the lines of accountability regarding the hot@ mailing
list.

Mikel's response has logical sense, but it's probably not clear to the
average participant in the hot@ mailing list whether they are
automatically made a part of the HOT community. Whether the best
clarification is to have two mailing lists, or for the info page
<https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot> to make clear whether
it is in general governed by HOT's rules, I don't know.

Best
Dan

_______________________________________________
HOT mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot


_______________________________________________
HOT mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot



--
sent from my mobile device

Dale Kunce


_______________________________________________
HOT mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
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Re: [Osmf-talk] [hotosm-membership] Re: Code of Conduct Reminder

Milo van der Linden-5
I feel almost all friction on this list, right now and in the past, has been between "those that want to organize" and those that do not want to be organized.

The hot mailinglist is the only one in the openstreetmap lists I see this happen.

Maybe somebody with a background in social behaviour could explain this phenomenon, why it occurs and how it can be resolved?

On Dec 15, 2017 7:44 PM, "Dale Kunce" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Just to clear the air. I misspoke in my initial post when I said the HOT CoC would be enforced on this list. I've since learned that the HOT list is not administered by HOT and thus our community crafted CoC does not apply here. Note: it does apply to all other HOT communication channels, including Tasking Manager, GitHub, slack, etc.

As Mikel said the existing OSM Etiquette rules, however, do apply in this space. 

My earlier statement of asking all community members of this list to think twice about what you say on this list. This is not an effort to curb free speech but instead to build a positive collaborative space to discuss.

On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 10:27 AM, Russell Deffner <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi all,

I would prefer to participate in mailing lists that are governed by CoC and enforced by an organized group rather than individuals.

=Russ

-----Original Message-----
From: Dan S [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, December 15, 2017 11:11 AM
To: Rafael Avila Coya
Cc: [hidden email]; Mapa Nauta; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [HOT] [Osmf-talk] [hotosm-membership] Re: Code of Conduct Reminder

Hi

It does seem to me that more clarity would be good here, i.e. slightly
disentangling the lines of accountability regarding the hot@ mailing
list.

Mikel's response has logical sense, but it's probably not clear to the
average participant in the hot@ mailing list whether they are
automatically made a part of the HOT community. Whether the best
clarification is to have two mailing lists, or for the info page
<https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot> to make clear whether
it is in general governed by HOT's rules, I don't know.

Best
Dan

_______________________________________________
HOT mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot


_______________________________________________
HOT mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot



--
sent from my mobile device

Dale Kunce


_______________________________________________
HOT mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot



_______________________________________________
HOT mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
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Re: [Osmf-talk] [hotosm-membership] Re: Code of Conduct Reminder

Tejay Marsh

The reason I joined this listserv was so that users could help each other with issues and problems they faced while helping to create maps for countries that don’t have the capabilities themselves. Out of the other listservs I am a part of, this one is by far the most troublesome, just like Milo said.

 

Since we are all individual HOT users and helpers with our own organizations that we represent, I agree that basic etiquette and common decency is necessary. However, I don’t believe a COC is automatically the answer.

 

We are all just trying to help see projects get completed. There’s no need for internal bickering among volunteers.

 

From: Milo van der Linden [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, December 15, 2017 2:13 PM
To: Dale Kunce
Cc: [hidden email]; Dan S; Mapa Nauta; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [HOT] [Osmf-talk] [hotosm-membership] Re: Code of Conduct Reminder

 

I feel almost all friction on this list, right now and in the past, has been between "those that want to organize" and those that do not want to be organized.

 

The hot mailinglist is the only one in the openstreetmap lists I see this happen.

 

Maybe somebody with a background in social behaviour could explain this phenomenon, why it occurs and how it can be resolved?

 

On Dec 15, 2017 7:44 PM, "Dale Kunce" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Just to clear the air. I misspoke in my initial post when I said the HOT CoC would be enforced on this list. I've since learned that the HOT list is not administered by HOT and thus our community crafted CoC does not apply here. Note: it does apply to all other HOT communication channels, including Tasking Manager, GitHub, slack, etc.

 

As Mikel said the existing OSM Etiquette rules, however, do apply in this space. 

 

My earlier statement of asking all community members of this list to think twice about what you say on this list. This is not an effort to curb free speech but instead to build a positive collaborative space to discuss.

 

On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 10:27 AM, Russell Deffner <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi all,

I would prefer to participate in mailing lists that are governed by CoC and enforced by an organized group rather than individuals.

=Russ


-----Original Message-----
From: Dan S [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, December 15, 2017 11:11 AM
To: Rafael Avila Coya
Cc: [hidden email]; Mapa Nauta; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [HOT] [Osmf-talk] [hotosm-membership] Re: Code of Conduct Reminder

Hi

It does seem to me that more clarity would be good here, i.e. slightly
disentangling the lines of accountability regarding the hot@ mailing
list.

Mikel's response has logical sense, but it's probably not clear to the
average participant in the hot@ mailing list whether they are
automatically made a part of the HOT community. Whether the best
clarification is to have two mailing lists, or for the info page
<https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot> to make clear whether
it is in general governed by HOT's rules, I don't know.

Best
Dan

_______________________________________________
HOT mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot


_______________________________________________
HOT mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot



 

--

sent from my mobile device

 

Dale Kunce

 


_______________________________________________
HOT mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot

 


_______________________________________________
HOT mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
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Re: [Osmf-talk] [hotosm-membership] Re: Code of Conduct Reminder

Rafael Avila Coya
In reply to this post by Pete Masters
Hi, Pete:

Yes, I forgot to say my opinion about the user who said he was
unsubscribing.

In my opinion, it's childish to quit an open forum, where anyone can
subscribe, just because somebody says something you don't like.
Specially when you see already some people telling you that no one can
control what others have to say.

If it was me, I would say it politely, like "I think not having a tool
to create squared buildings in iD is a pity, because if we had, more
squared buildings would be mapped". But what I, you or Dale think about
politeness is something that depend on many factors, the most important
of them cultural. Believe me when I tell you that I didn't find it
unpolite, and it passed unadverted to me.

We, the overall OSM community, are very gentle and pacific in general,
so we can govern ourselves without the need of any CoC. All this thread
tells me very clear how negative a CoC in OSM lists would be.

Are we confortable with that? We can tell him things similar to those
that others said already to him, in the way "what one person says,
whether you don't like it, is what one person says, but not what the
rest thinks. And maybe he wasn't meaning that he hates you, but he hates
that you iD devs don't have a building tool like JOSM". There are ways
to say the same better and more clear. But what I am clearly against is
to put him under the foot of a CoC. Only the name, CoC, scares me a lot.

I hope I make me more clear now.

Cheers,

Rafael.

On 15/12/17 19:39, Pete Masters wrote:

> Hi Rafael, I see your point about the CoC and ownership of the list. But
> that was only the third paragraph of Dale's email.
>
> The fact remains that a person was told they are one of a hated group of
> people and left the list. It's a loss. Are we comfortable with that? Is
> it just the way it is and everyone has to live with it?
>
> Personally, I am not comfortable with it and welcome further discussion.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Pete
>
>
>
> On 15 Dec 2017 18:24, "Rafael Avila Coya" <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     Hi, Dan:
>
>     The thing here is that [hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]> is, as far as I know, an OSM mailing
>     list, not HOT US inc.'s. I would find it weard that another OSM
>     mailing list was governed by the Red Cross, and that talk-es was
>     governed by the Spanish Government, for example.
>
>     Cheers,
>
>     Rafael.
>
>     On 15/12/17 19:11, Dan S wrote:
>
>         Hi
>
>         It does seem to me that more clarity would be good here, i.e.
>         slightly
>         disentangling the lines of accountability regarding the hot@ mailing
>         list.
>
>         Mikel's response has logical sense, but it's probably not clear
>         to the
>         average participant in the hot@ mailing list whether they are
>         automatically made a part of the HOT community. Whether the best
>         clarification is to have two mailing lists, or for the info page
>         <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>         <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot>> to make clear
>         whether
>         it is in general governed by HOT's rules, I don't know.
>
>         Best
>         Dan
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     HOT mailing list
>     [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>     <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot>
>

_______________________________________________
HOT mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
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Re: [Osmf-talk] [hotosm-membership] Re: Code of Conduct Reminder

Dale Kunce
Rafael,
Saying things like "x is childish" is not in keeping with good manners.

I think the larger point is that this space is not "gentle." We clearly need a CoC or at the very least to enforce the rules we (OSM) already have in place. OSM is not so special from every other internet community. Most software projects, data projects, and even media companies have open CoC and expectations for how you behave in there space. OSM is not unique, we need to set clear expectations about how to act in this space.

Is it so hard for people to be nice to one another? I think it behoves everyone in this community to make the affirmation of being nice to one another the same way we all made the commitment to the ODBL. I think it behoves us all to call out bad behavior when we see it. Keep others honest and on topic not through enforcing a CoC but through the accepting the rules outlined in the CoC or etiquette guidelines.

On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Rafael Avila Coya <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi, Pete:

Yes, I forgot to say my opinion about the user who said he was unsubscribing.

In my opinion, it's childish to quit an open forum, where anyone can subscribe, just because somebody says something you don't like. Specially when you see already some people telling you that no one can control what others have to say.

If it was me, I would say it politely, like "I think not having a tool to create squared buildings in iD is a pity, because if we had, more squared buildings would be mapped". But what I, you or Dale think about politeness is something that depend on many factors, the most important of them cultural. Believe me when I tell you that I didn't find it unpolite, and it passed unadverted to me.

We, the overall OSM community, are very gentle and pacific in general, so we can govern ourselves without the need of any CoC. All this thread tells me very clear how negative a CoC in OSM lists would be.

Are we confortable with that? We can tell him things similar to those that others said already to him, in the way "what one person says, whether you don't like it, is what one person says, but not what the rest thinks. And maybe he wasn't meaning that he hates you, but he hates that you iD devs don't have a building tool like JOSM". There are ways to say the same better and more clear. But what I am clearly against is to put him under the foot of a CoC. Only the name, CoC, scares me a lot.

I hope I make me more clear now.

Cheers,

Rafael.

On 15/12/17 19:39, Pete Masters wrote:
Hi Rafael, I see your point about the CoC and ownership of the list. But that was only the third paragraph of Dale's email.

The fact remains that a person was told they are one of a hated group of people and left the list. It's a loss. Are we comfortable with that? Is it just the way it is and everyone has to live with it?

Personally, I am not comfortable with it and welcome further discussion.

Cheers,

Pete



On 15 Dec 2017 18:24, "Rafael Avila Coya" <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

    Hi, Dan:

    The thing here is that [hidden email]
    <mailto:[hidden email]> is, as far as I know, an OSM mailing
    list, not HOT US inc.'s. I would find it weard that another OSM
    mailing list was governed by the Red Cross, and that talk-es was
    governed by the Spanish Government, for example.

    Cheers,

    Rafael.

    On 15/12/17 19:11, Dan S wrote:

        Hi

        It does seem to me that more clarity would be good here, i.e.
        slightly
        disentangling the lines of accountability regarding the hot@ mailing
        list.

        Mikel's response has logical sense, but it's probably not clear
        to the
        average participant in the hot@ mailing list whether they are
        automatically made a part of the HOT community. Whether the best
        clarification is to have two mailing lists, or for the info page
        <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
        <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot>> to make clear
        whether
        it is in general governed by HOT's rules, I don't know.

        Best
        Dan


    _______________________________________________
    HOT mailing list
    [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
    https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
    <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot>


_______________________________________________
HOT mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot



--
sent from my mobile device

Dale Kunce


_______________________________________________
HOT mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
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Re: [Osmf-talk] [hotosm-membership] Re: Code of Conduct Reminder

Ian Schuler
In reply to this post by Milo van der Linden-5
I don't have a background in social behavior, but I've worked for a long time on freedom of expression, so let me take a crack here.

I think that it is important to recognize to all sides of this argument are pro-speech. All want to see the best ideas rise. But they have slightly different worldviews about how best to do that.

One side sees any restrictions on speech as worrisome and a potential slippery slope. They are concerned that rules are likely to be abused by people to stifle conversations that are uncomfortable to some, but important to have.

The other side sees this as a Wild West environment where only the most aggressive voices get heard. When people behave harshly, even toward people who can take it, it makes other people uncomfortable speaking up, and the community suffers for loosing those voices.

Neither side is wrong. Both problematic at the extreme. I've found that most people fall somewhere in the middle.

<IMHO>
My natural inclinations are biased toward the first camp. I'm immediately allergic to speech restrictions, especially imposed by a government of big institution. That said... over time I've learned that CoC are really important for a group of more than a few people. In practice, the communities from which I've gained the most have a clear code of conduct, are vocal about it, and are visible in enforcing. Those groups exposed me to voices that I wasn't hearing in other places.
</IMHO>

On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 2:13 PM, Milo van der Linden <[hidden email]> wrote:
I feel almost all friction on this list, right now and in the past, has been between "those that want to organize" and those that do not want to be organized.

The hot mailinglist is the only one in the openstreetmap lists I see this happen.

Maybe somebody with a background in social behaviour could explain this phenomenon, why it occurs and how it can be resolved?

On Dec 15, 2017 7:44 PM, "Dale Kunce" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Just to clear the air. I misspoke in my initial post when I said the HOT CoC would be enforced on this list. I've since learned that the HOT list is not administered by HOT and thus our community crafted CoC does not apply here. Note: it does apply to all other HOT communication channels, including Tasking Manager, GitHub, slack, etc.

As Mikel said the existing OSM Etiquette rules, however, do apply in this space. 

My earlier statement of asking all community members of this list to think twice about what you say on this list. This is not an effort to curb free speech but instead to build a positive collaborative space to discuss.

On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 10:27 AM, Russell Deffner <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi all,

I would prefer to participate in mailing lists that are governed by CoC and enforced by an organized group rather than individuals.

=Russ

-----Original Message-----
From: Dan S [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, December 15, 2017 11:11 AM
To: Rafael Avila Coya
Cc: [hidden email]; Mapa Nauta; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [HOT] [Osmf-talk] [hotosm-membership] Re: Code of Conduct Reminder

Hi

It does seem to me that more clarity would be good here, i.e. slightly
disentangling the lines of accountability regarding the hot@ mailing
list.

Mikel's response has logical sense, but it's probably not clear to the
average participant in the hot@ mailing list whether they are
automatically made a part of the HOT community. Whether the best
clarification is to have two mailing lists, or for the info page
<https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot> to make clear whether
it is in general governed by HOT's rules, I don't know.

Best
Dan

_______________________________________________
HOT mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot


_______________________________________________
HOT mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot



--
sent from my mobile device

Dale Kunce


_______________________________________________
HOT mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot



_______________________________________________
HOT mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot



_______________________________________________
HOT mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
12