Confusion bicycle_road <> cyclestreet

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Confusion bicycle_road <> cyclestreet

voschix
Hi,
I have come across a new (to me) street sign In Italy:
The road is a one-lane residential road on which bicycles and pedestrians can circulate.
I don't know the legal status, however (I am inquiring).

In that contest I have noticed that we have two wiki pages defining two tags, which seem to be describing nearly the same concept:

The main difference, as I understand it, is that the bicycle road is for bicycles only, unless there are additional signs, whereas
on a cycle street "cars are also allowed. However, this car use is limited by the character and layout of the cyclestreet"

To make the confusion perfect, both wiki pages use the same (German) road sign as illustration for the situation in Germany.

Taginfo:

Volker
Padova, Italy









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Re: Confusion bicycle_road <> cyclestreet

joost
Hi Volker,

I tried to clarify the German bit on the cyclestreet page. It wasn't clear enough that the German section on cyclestreet had as point to say: "in Germany cyclestreet=* does not exist, they have bicycle_road instead". These two concepts maybe could have had the same tag from the start with just slightly different implications.

Op di 25 aug. 2020 om 12:15 schreef Volker Schmidt <[hidden email]>:
Hi,
I have come across a new (to me) street sign In Italy:
The road is a one-lane residential road on which bicycles and pedestrians can circulate.
I don't know the legal status, however (I am inquiring).

In that contest I have noticed that we have two wiki pages defining two tags, which seem to be describing nearly the same concept:

The main difference, as I understand it, is that the bicycle road is for bicycles only, unless there are additional signs, whereas
on a cycle street "cars are also allowed. However, this car use is limited by the character and layout of the cyclestreet"

To make the confusion perfect, both wiki pages use the same (German) road sign as illustration for the situation in Germany.

Taginfo:

Volker
Padova, Italy








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Re: Confusion bicycle_road <> cyclestreet

Tagging mailing list
In reply to this post by voschix
I am curious is there any difference in practical use of this two tags.

Aug 25, 2020, 12:13 by [hidden email]:
Hi,
I have come across a new (to me) street sign In Italy:
The road is a one-lane residential road on which bicycles and pedestrians can circulate.
I don't know the legal status, however (I am inquiring).

In that contest I have noticed that we have two wiki pages defining two tags, which seem to be describing nearly the same concept:

The main difference, as I understand it, is that the bicycle road is for bicycles only, unless there are additional signs, whereas
on a cycle street "cars are also allowed. However, this car use is limited by the character and layout of the cyclestreet"

To make the confusion perfect, both wiki pages use the same (German) road sign as illustration for the situation in Germany.

Taginfo:

Volker
Padova, Italy











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Re: Confusion bicycle_road <> cyclestreet

joost
Well, in the Netherlands cyclestreet seems to be a "suggestional" traffic sign. In Belgium cyclestreet it has a clear legal meaning. In Germany bicycle_road has a clear (but quite different) legal meaning. So putting the Dutch and Belgian thing together but not the German, that doesn't make much sense. There's plenty of discussion on the Dutch forum about this. A fundamental remark: "apps that use the original German definition will see the road as forbidden for cars unless otherwise tagged", which does not make sense in Belgium or Holland.

See e.g.


Op wo 26 aug. 2020 om 08:51 schreef Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <[hidden email]>:
I am curious is there any difference in practical use of this two tags.

Aug 25, 2020, 12:13 by [hidden email]:
Hi,
I have come across a new (to me) street sign In Italy:
The road is a one-lane residential road on which bicycles and pedestrians can circulate.
I don't know the legal status, however (I am inquiring).

In that contest I have noticed that we have two wiki pages defining two tags, which seem to be describing nearly the same concept:

The main difference, as I understand it, is that the bicycle road is for bicycles only, unless there are additional signs, whereas
on a cycle street "cars are also allowed. However, this car use is limited by the character and layout of the cyclestreet"

To make the confusion perfect, both wiki pages use the same (German) road sign as illustration for the situation in Germany.

Taginfo:

Volker
Padova, Italy










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Re: Confusion bicycle_road <> cyclestreet

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

> On 26. Aug 2020, at 12:35, joost schouppe <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> So putting the Dutch and Belgian thing together but not the German, that doesn't make much sense.


I read this as a suggestion for a third alternative tag?

Cheers Martin
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Re: Confusion bicycle_road <> cyclestreet

joost

> So putting the Dutch and Belgian thing together but not the German, that doesn't make much sense.


I read this as a suggestion for a third alternative tag?


Noooooooooooo!

:)

Just saying that there's similar concepts that could have had the same main tag (and different clarifying tags or country-based defaults explained on the wiki)  or could have had different tags with exact implications; and that we wound up with a random combination of the two.

As long as cyclestreet is clearly "marketed" as "a tag that has different implications in different countries", then there really is no practical issue. The weirdest thing to happen would be if now, say, Finland would use bicycle_road for something really different than the German logic.

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Re: Confusion bicycle_road <> cyclestreet

voschix
In reply to this post by Tagging mailing list
Yes, there is a legal difference

bicycle_road
A German "Fahrradstrasse" (which is the prototype on which this tag seems to be modeled) is a road exclusively  for bicycles in the sense that carries the the sign "Fahrradstrasse" without addition indicates that the carriageway of the road is reserved for bicycles, pedestrians, people on skayes, youn children on bicycles need to use the sidewalk (if available). lso an implied speed limit of 30km/h applies.
In my opinion the "naked " German Fahrradstrasse is equivalent to
highway=service|residential
vehicle=no
foot=use_sidewalk  or sidewalk=separate if there is a separate sidewalk
bicycle=designated
maxspeed=30
So what do you "save" in tagging with bicycle_road=yes ?
As far as I can see it replaces "vehicle=no" and "bicycle=designated" with "bicycle_road=yes"
(the speed limit is not part of the the bicycle_road tag nor is there any indication about pedestrians)

cyclestreet
The prototype cycle street seems to be the Belgian "rue cyclable | fietsstraat" that describes a road that is not wide enough for creating separate cycle lanes or cycleways, hence the carriageway is shared between cyclists and motor vehicles. Motor vehicles are not allowed to overtake bicycles and there is an implicit speed limit of 30km/h

Such a road would be equivalent to
highway=service|residential
foot=use_sidewalk  or sidewalk=separate if there is a separate sidewalk
maxspeed=30
overtaking:motorcar=no (this tagging is not defined in the wiki)
What is the "saving" n using the cyclestreet=yes tagging?
None, as both maxspeed and overtaking restriction are not part of the OSM tah cyclestreet=yes

Basically I see no need for separate tags like bicycle_road and cyclestreet, as you can easily describe their properties with existing tags. Add to this the confusion between the two tags, and then add to the mix the myriad of variants on the subject in countries other than Germany and Belgium, respectively.
These two tags should be discouraged.
As that most likely is not possible, maybe we can at least discourage their "export" to other countries.



On Wed, 26 Aug 2020 at 08:51, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote:
I am curious is there any difference in practical use of this two tags.

Aug 25, 2020, 12:13 by [hidden email]:
Hi,
I have come across a new (to me) street sign In Italy:
The road is a one-lane residential road on which bicycles and pedestrians can circulate.
I don't know the legal status, however (I am inquiring).

In that contest I have noticed that we have two wiki pages defining two tags, which seem to be describing nearly the same concept:

The main difference, as I understand it, is that the bicycle road is for bicycles only, unless there are additional signs, whereas
on a cycle street "cars are also allowed. However, this car use is limited by the character and layout of the cyclestreet"

To make the confusion perfect, both wiki pages use the same (German) road sign as illustration for the situation in Germany.

Taginfo:

Volker
Padova, Italy










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Re: Confusion bicycle_road <> cyclestreet

Jo-2
fietsstraat / rue cyclable are really 'a thing' in Belgium. Usually the whole street is redesigned, it's not just a traffic sign on both ends. Red asphalt, giant flower pots. Car drivers don't seem to realise that they are not allowed to overtake cyclists in most of them though. So that's a bit disappointing. They pass me by even when I'm going at 25km/h and they are supposedly only allowed to go at 30km/h. I had no idea that their 'properties' were so different in The Netherlands and Germany.

I agree that their definitions should probably not be 'exported' to other countries, until such time that something with the same semantics exists there.

Polyglot

On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 2:44 PM Volker Schmidt <[hidden email]> wrote:
Yes, there is a legal difference

bicycle_road
A German "Fahrradstrasse" (which is the prototype on which this tag seems to be modeled) is a road exclusively  for bicycles in the sense that carries the the sign "Fahrradstrasse" without addition indicates that the carriageway of the road is reserved for bicycles, pedestrians, people on skayes, youn children on bicycles need to use the sidewalk (if available). lso an implied speed limit of 30km/h applies.
In my opinion the "naked " German Fahrradstrasse is equivalent to
highway=service|residential
vehicle=no
foot=use_sidewalk  or sidewalk=separate if there is a separate sidewalk
bicycle=designated
maxspeed=30
So what do you "save" in tagging with bicycle_road=yes ?
As far as I can see it replaces "vehicle=no" and "bicycle=designated" with "bicycle_road=yes"
(the speed limit is not part of the the bicycle_road tag nor is there any indication about pedestrians)

cyclestreet
The prototype cycle street seems to be the Belgian "rue cyclable | fietsstraat" that describes a road that is not wide enough for creating separate cycle lanes or cycleways, hence the carriageway is shared between cyclists and motor vehicles. Motor vehicles are not allowed to overtake bicycles and there is an implicit speed limit of 30km/h

Such a road would be equivalent to
highway=service|residential
foot=use_sidewalk  or sidewalk=separate if there is a separate sidewalk
maxspeed=30
overtaking:motorcar=no (this tagging is not defined in the wiki)
What is the "saving" n using the cyclestreet=yes tagging?
None, as both maxspeed and overtaking restriction are not part of the OSM tah cyclestreet=yes

Basically I see no need for separate tags like bicycle_road and cyclestreet, as you can easily describe their properties with existing tags. Add to this the confusion between the two tags, and then add to the mix the myriad of variants on the subject in countries other than Germany and Belgium, respectively.
These two tags should be discouraged.
As that most likely is not possible, maybe we can at least discourage their "export" to other countries.



On Wed, 26 Aug 2020 at 08:51, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote:
I am curious is there any difference in practical use of this two tags.

Aug 25, 2020, 12:13 by [hidden email]:
Hi,
I have come across a new (to me) street sign In Italy:
The road is a one-lane residential road on which bicycles and pedestrians can circulate.
I don't know the legal status, however (I am inquiring).

In that contest I have noticed that we have two wiki pages defining two tags, which seem to be describing nearly the same concept:

The main difference, as I understand it, is that the bicycle road is for bicycles only, unless there are additional signs, whereas
on a cycle street "cars are also allowed. However, this car use is limited by the character and layout of the cyclestreet"

To make the confusion perfect, both wiki pages use the same (German) road sign as illustration for the situation in Germany.

Taginfo:

Volker
Padova, Italy










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Re: Confusion bicycle_road <> cyclestreet

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by voschix


sent from a phone

> On 26. Aug 2020, at 14:44, Volker Schmidt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> In my opinion the "naked " German Fahrradstrasse is equivalent to
> highway=service|residential
> vehicle=no
> foot=use_sidewalk  or sidewalk=separate if there is a separate sidewalk
> bicycle=designated
> maxspeed=30



this raises the question whether highway=residential with vehicle=no is still a residential road. you would not expect a residential road to exclude all kinds of vehicles, would you? It’s more like a highway=cycleway with width=5 and foot=yes (on the sidewalks).
In both cases you kind of loose the nuances.


Cheers Martin
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Re: Confusion bicycle_road <> cyclestreet

Jeroen Hoek
In reply to this post by voschix
On 26-08-2020 14:42, Volker Schmidt wrote:
> What is the "saving" n using the cyclestreet=yes tagging? […]
> Basically I see no need for separate tags like bicycle_road and
> cyclestreet, as you can easily describe their properties with
> existing tags. Add to this the confusion between the two tags, and
> then add to the mix the myriad of variants on the subject in
> countries other than Germany and Belgium, respectively.

I can't comment on bicycle_road, but as for cyclestreet the wiki gives a
fair description:

> A cyclestreet is a street that is designed as a bicycle route, but
> on which cars are also allowed. However, this car use is limited by
> the character and layout of the cyclestreet.
>
> Bicycles are the primary users of the street, while motor vehicles
> are secondary.

All other tags like maxspeed and overtaking:motorcar are useful, but
tell the consumer nothing about the inherent nature of the cyclestreet,
which is a shared road that is by design bicycle-friendly. This goes
beyond taggable properties (e.g. traffic flow to and from such streets
in the broader city grid is taken into account, there are no speed
barriers that are bicycle-unfriendly).

The tag cyclestreet=yes can serve some purposes I can think of:

* Rendering these streets differently on (cycling) maps (like a blend
between a normal street and highway=cycleway)

* Prefer them in cycling routing engines over streets lacking cycling
facilities

* Penalize them in car routing engines

It is analogous to highway=cycleway: you can easily use highway=service
and add a bunch of tags making it a cycleway in terms of access rights,
but a cycleway implies much more than that (like safety and
suitability). The cyclestreet=yes tag is similar in this respect.

Jeroen Hoek

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