Copying address from business website?

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Copying address from business website?

Kim Oldfield
Is it acceptable to copy a street address (and other contact details)
from a business's webpage?

For example in https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/72452124 (what
changed is easier to see at
https://osmlab.github.io/osm-deep-history/#/way/705884944 ) I added the
street address as listed on their website.

If this isn't acceptable, what is an acceptable way of getting an
address if it is not obvious during a site survey?

Regards,
Kim

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Re: Copying address from business website?

Graeme Fitzpatrick


On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 at 13:06, Kim Oldfield <[hidden email]> wrote:
Is it acceptable to copy a street address (and other contact details)
from a business's webpage?

I certainly do exactly that all the time! 

Make note of the shop name, or pull it off my dash-cam footage, search that name & suburb & enter all relevant details.

Can't see it being a problem myself?

Thanks

Graeme

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Re: Copying address from business website?

Andrew Harvey-3
In reply to this post by Kim Oldfield
This has come up a few times on the mailing lists, and the advise usually given is it's okay to source a few facts here and there like the address or contact number, but just don't start taking a whole database of venues and copy that database.

On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 at 13:06, Kim Oldfield <[hidden email]> wrote:
Is it acceptable to copy a street address (and other contact details)
from a business's webpage?

For example in https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/72452124 (what
changed is easier to see at
https://osmlab.github.io/osm-deep-history/#/way/705884944 ) I added the
street address as listed on their website.

If this isn't acceptable, what is an acceptable way of getting an
address if it is not obvious during a site survey?

Regards,
Kim

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Re: Copying address from business website?

Adrian Hobbs
Might be issues where contact address (e.g. head office) being copied is different to physical location on map.
Adrian Hobbs

⁣Sent from BlueMail ​

On 22 Jul. 2019, 15:21, at 15:21, Andrew Harvey <[hidden email]> wrote:

>This has come up a few times on the mailing lists, and the advise
>usually
>given is it's okay to source a few facts here and there like the
>address or
>contact number, but just don't start taking a whole database of venues
>and
>copy that database.
>
>On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 at 13:06, Kim Oldfield <[hidden email]>
>wrote:
>
>> Is it acceptable to copy a street address (and other contact details)
>> from a business's webpage?
>>
>> For example in https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/72452124 (what
>> changed is easier to see at
>> https://osmlab.github.io/osm-deep-history/#/way/705884944 ) I added
>the
>> street address as listed on their website.
>>
>> If this isn't acceptable, what is an acceptable way of getting an
>> address if it is not obvious during a site survey?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Kim
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Talk-au mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
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Re: Copying address from business website?

Kim Oldfield
Graeme: It's nice to know that I'm not the only one who has done this.
This particular change caused me to reconsider how appropriate it is as
it was all sourced from the website so I used source=website which, when
viewed superficially, appears to contradict guidelines for where to
source map data.

Andrew: It is nice to know that this is generally considered OK for
individual facts.

Adrian: As part of manually adding these facts I check that the address
I'm adding is for this physical location, ie at least the street adjoins
the business being tagged.

On 22/7/19 3:28 pm, Adrian Hobbs wrote:

> Might be issues where contact address (e.g. head office) being copied is different to physical location on map.
> Adrian Hobbs
>
> ⁣Sent from BlueMail ​
>
> On 22 Jul. 2019, 15:21, at 15:21, Andrew Harvey <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> This has come up a few times on the mailing lists, and the advise
>> usually
>> given is it's okay to source a few facts here and there like the
>> address or
>> contact number, but just don't start taking a whole database of venues
>> and
>> copy that database.
>>
>> On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 at 13:06, Kim Oldfield <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Is it acceptable to copy a street address (and other contact details)
>>> from a business's webpage?
>>>
>>> For example in https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/72452124 (what
>>> changed is easier to see at
>>> https://osmlab.github.io/osm-deep-history/#/way/705884944 ) I added
>> the
>>> street address as listed on their website.
>>>
>>> If this isn't acceptable, what is an acceptable way of getting an
>>> address if it is not obvious during a site survey?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Kim
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Talk-au mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Talk-au mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au


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Re: Copying address from business website?

SimonPoole
In reply to this post by Kim Oldfield
There was just a longish discussion on legal-talk on the topic:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/legal-talk/2019-July/thread.html 
(note that AUS is one of the three countries with a strong sweat of the
brow doctrine).

From a legal POV completing information with data from the
establishments own website should in general be OK, from a QA
perspective brain needs to be turned on as, just as with any other data
source,  there is no guarantee that website contains current and correct
information.

Compilations of the same data (for example google and so one) should not
be used for sourcing information for OSM.

Simon

Am 22.07.2019 um 05:04 schrieb Kim Oldfield:

> Is it acceptable to copy a street address (and other contact details)
> from a business's webpage?
>
> For example in https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/72452124 (what
> changed is easier to see at
> https://osmlab.github.io/osm-deep-history/#/way/705884944 ) I added
> the street address as listed on their website.
>
> If this isn't acceptable, what is an acceptable way of getting an
> address if it is not obvious during a site survey?
>
> Regards,
> Kim
>
> _______________________________________________
> Talk-au mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au

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Re: Copying address from business website?

Mateusz Konieczny-3
In reply to this post by Kim Oldfield

22 Jul 2019, 05:04 by [hidden email]:
what is an acceptable way of getting an address if it is not obvious during a site survey?
I often simply ask someone - obviously,
it is not always feasible/ok but often
works well.

Local government may have address 
database on a suitable license.

And it seems that it is ok to get data
from business website (
though not aggregators like Google maps)


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Re: Copying address from business website?

Andrew Harvey-3
Indeed, the OP's question was in Victoria. In Victoria, Vicmap data which is CC BY has had the OSMFs waiver completed, so we are able to use https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_data_catalogue.

http://results.openaddresses.io/sources/au/vic/statewide provides this as CSV, which can be converted to OSM format with https://github.com/openaddresses/oa2osm.

Or you can download the result at: https://tianjara.net/data/oa-vic.osm.xz

On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 at 20:37, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:

22 Jul 2019, 05:04 by [hidden email]:
what is an acceptable way of getting an address if it is not obvious during a site survey?
I often simply ask someone - obviously,
it is not always feasible/ok but often
works well.

Local government may have address 
database on a suitable license.

And it seems that it is ok to get data
from business website (
though not aggregators like Google maps)

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Re: Copying address from business website?

Andrew Harvey-3
I've just updated that osm file to use Title Case and addr:suburb instead of addr:city.

On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 at 21:57, Andrew Harvey <[hidden email]> wrote:
Indeed, the OP's question was in Victoria. In Victoria, Vicmap data which is CC BY has had the OSMFs waiver completed, so we are able to use https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_data_catalogue.

http://results.openaddresses.io/sources/au/vic/statewide provides this as CSV, which can be converted to OSM format with https://github.com/openaddresses/oa2osm.

Or you can download the result at: https://tianjara.net/data/oa-vic.osm.xz

On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 at 20:37, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:

22 Jul 2019, 05:04 by [hidden email]:
what is an acceptable way of getting an address if it is not obvious during a site survey?
I often simply ask someone - obviously,
it is not always feasible/ok but often
works well.

Local government may have address 
database on a suitable license.

And it seems that it is ok to get data
from business website (
though not aggregators like Google maps)

_______________________________________________
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Re: Copying address from business website?

ewmjc
In reply to this post by Andrew Harvey-3

A simple test is: Am I helping their business? If it is the venue business itself, then yes you are. If you take from a listing site - where their value is the list itself, then no you are not, you are potentially acting to its detriment.

FYI, your till receipts are another good source.

Mike

On 2019-07-22 07:19, Andrew Harvey wrote:
This has come up a few times on the mailing lists, and the advise usually given is it's okay to source a few facts here and there like the address or contact number, but just don't start taking a whole database of venues and copy that database.

On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 at 13:06, Kim Oldfield <[hidden email]> wrote:
Is it acceptable to copy a street address (and other contact details)
from a business's webpage?

For example in https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/72452124 (what
changed is easier to see at
https://osmlab.github.io/osm-deep-history/#/way/705884944 ) I added the
street address as listed on their website.

If this isn't acceptable, what is an acceptable way of getting an
address if it is not obvious during a site survey?

Regards,
Kim

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Re: Copying address from business website?

Sebastian S.
In reply to this post by Kim Oldfield
Hi, I find it odd that you state source:website but don't proved the
website in the website tag. Why not?

PS: I see the website of the business as the virtual front and consider
the information public as any sign etc on the actual shop. So Yes I do
this also all the time. (Individual POIs, not mass import)

Am 2019-07-22 15:47, schrieb Kim Oldfield:

> Graeme: It's nice to know that I'm not the only one who has done this.
> This particular change caused me to reconsider how appropriate it is
> as it was all sourced from the website so I used source=website which,
> when viewed superficially, appears to contradict guidelines for where
> to source map data.
>
> Andrew: It is nice to know that this is generally considered OK for
> individual facts.
>
> Adrian: As part of manually adding these facts I check that the
> address I'm adding is for this physical location, ie at least the
> street adjoins the business being tagged.
>
> On 22/7/19 3:28 pm, Adrian Hobbs wrote:
>> Might be issues where contact address (e.g. head office) being copied
>> is different to physical location on map.
>> Adrian Hobbs
>>
>> ⁣Sent from BlueMail ​
>>
>> On 22 Jul. 2019, 15:21, at 15:21, Andrew Harvey
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> This has come up a few times on the mailing lists, and the advise
>>> usually
>>> given is it's okay to source a few facts here and there like the
>>> address or
>>> contact number, but just don't start taking a whole database of
>>> venues
>>> and
>>> copy that database.
>>>
>>> On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 at 13:06, Kim Oldfield
>>> <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Is it acceptable to copy a street address (and other contact
>>>> details)
>>>> from a business's webpage?
>>>>
>>>> For example in https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/72452124 
>>>> (what
>>>> changed is easier to see at
>>>> https://osmlab.github.io/osm-deep-history/#/way/705884944 ) I added
>>> the
>>>> street address as listed on their website.
>>>>
>>>> If this isn't acceptable, what is an acceptable way of getting an
>>>> address if it is not obvious during a site survey?
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Kim
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Talk-au mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Talk-au mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Talk-au mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au

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Re: Copying address from business website?

Sebastian S.
In reply to this post by SimonPoole
I do consider the website of a business public. Why else would the
business have the website?
So if said website provides information that makes sense in OSM, I add
it.
Yes the brain is to be switched on, always, e.g. opening hours - I
follow what the shop states if they differ from the site.

I do agree that aggregator sites or many of these listings that are just
SPAM in my view shoudl not be considered an acceptable source - as they
are not the primary source of the information but rather have crawled
the web for it.

Seb


Am 2019-07-22 17:28, schrieb Simon Poole:

> There was just a longish discussion on legal-talk on the topic:
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/legal-talk/2019-July/thread.html 
> (note that AUS is one of the three countries with a strong sweat of the
> brow doctrine).
>
> From a legal POV completing information with data from the
> establishments own website should in general be OK, from a QA
> perspective brain needs to be turned on as, just as with any other data
> source,  there is no guarantee that website contains current and
> correct
> information.
>
> Compilations of the same data (for example google and so one) should
> not
> be used for sourcing information for OSM.
>
> Simon
>
> Am 22.07.2019 um 05:04 schrieb Kim Oldfield:
>> Is it acceptable to copy a street address (and other contact details)
>> from a business's webpage?
>>
>> For example in https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/72452124 (what
>> changed is easier to see at
>> https://osmlab.github.io/osm-deep-history/#/way/705884944 ) I added
>> the street address as listed on their website.
>>
>> If this isn't acceptable, what is an acceptable way of getting an
>> address if it is not obvious during a site survey?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Kim
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Talk-au mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Talk-au mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au

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Re: Copying address from business website?

Kim Oldfield
In reply to this post by Sebastian S.
Hi Sebastian,

The source website was in the tag I added:
website=http://www.maroondahleisure.com.au/venues/maroondah-nets/

My understanding of how to use source is as a generic description of
where the information came from, rather than an exact reference. For
example https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source lists
source="aerial imagery" as commonly used, while I would have expected it
to be depreciated with preference to the name of the aerial imagery
used, eg source=bing.


On 26/7/19 9:02 am, Sebastian Spiess wrote:

> Hi, I find it odd that you state source:website but don't proved the
> website in the website tag. Why not?
>
> PS: I see the website of the business as the virtual front and
> consider the information public as any sign etc on the actual shop. So
> Yes I do this also all the time. (Individual POIs, not mass import)
>
> Am 2019-07-22 15:47, schrieb Kim Oldfield:
>> Graeme: It's nice to know that I'm not the only one who has done this.
>> This particular change caused me to reconsider how appropriate it is
>> as it was all sourced from the website so I used source=website which,
>> when viewed superficially, appears to contradict guidelines for where
>> to source map data.
>>
>> Andrew: It is nice to know that this is generally considered OK for
>> individual facts.
>>
>> Adrian: As part of manually adding these facts I check that the
>> address I'm adding is for this physical location, ie at least the
>> street adjoins the business being tagged.
>>
>> On 22/7/19 3:28 pm, Adrian Hobbs wrote:
>>> Might be issues where contact address (e.g. head office) being
>>> copied is different to physical location on map.
>>> Adrian Hobbs
>>>
>>> ⁣Sent from BlueMail ​
>>>
>>> On 22 Jul. 2019, 15:21, at 15:21, Andrew Harvey
>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> This has come up a few times on the mailing lists, and the advise
>>>> usually
>>>> given is it's okay to source a few facts here and there like the
>>>> address or
>>>> contact number, but just don't start taking a whole database of venues
>>>> and
>>>> copy that database.
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 at 13:06, Kim Oldfield <[hidden email]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Is it acceptable to copy a street address (and other contact details)
>>>>> from a business's webpage?
>>>>>
>>>>> For example in https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/72452124 (what
>>>>> changed is easier to see at
>>>>> https://osmlab.github.io/osm-deep-history/#/way/705884944 ) I added
>>>> the
>>>>> street address as listed on their website.
>>>>>
>>>>> If this isn't acceptable, what is an acceptable way of getting an
>>>>> address if it is not obvious during a site survey?
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Kim
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Talk-au mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Talk-au mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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Re: Copying address from business website?

Sebastian S.
Hi Kim,
If you have added the website tag I must have missed it, too many tabs.
I did not mean to come across condescending. I'm sorry.
--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

On 26 July 2019 9:51:19 am AEST, Kim Oldfield <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Sebastian,

The source website was in the tag I added:
website=http://www.maroondahleisure.com.au/venues/maroondah-nets/

My understanding of how to use source is as a generic description of
where the information came from, rather than an exact reference. For
example https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source lists
source="aerial imagery" as commonly used, while I would have expected it
to be depreciated with preference to the name of the aerial imagery
used, eg source=bing.


On 26/7/19 9:02 am, Sebastian Spiess wrote:
Hi, I find it odd that you state source:website but don't proved the
website in the website tag. Why not?

PS: I see the website of the business as the virtual front and
consider the information public as any sign etc on the actual shop. So
Yes I do this also all the time. (Individual POIs, not mass import)

Am 2019-07-22 15:47, schrieb Kim Oldfield:
Graeme: It's nice to know that I'm not the only one who has done this.
This particular change caused me to reconsider how appropriate it is
as it was all sourced from the website so I used source=website which,
when viewed superficially, appears to contradict guidelines for where
to source map data.

Andrew: It is nice to know that this is generally considered OK for
individual facts.

Adrian: As part of manually adding these facts I check that the
address I'm adding is for this physical location, ie at least the
street adjoins the business being tagged.

On 22/7/19 3:28 pm, Adrian Hobbs wrote:
Might be issues where contact address (e.g. head office) being
copied is different to physical location on map.
Adrian Hobbs

⁣Sent from BlueMail ​

On 22 Jul. 2019, 15:21, at 15:21, Andrew Harvey
<[hidden email]> wrote:
This has come up a few times on the mailing lists, and the advise
usually
given is it's okay to source a few facts here and there like the
address or
contact number, but just don't start taking a whole database of venues
and
copy that database.

On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 at 13:06, Kim Oldfield <[hidden email]>
wrote:

Is it acceptable to copy a street address (and other contact details)
from a business's webpage?

For example in https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/72452124 (what
changed is easier to see at
https://osmlab.github.io/osm-deep-history/#/way/705884944 ) I added
the
street address as listed on their website.

If this isn't acceptable, what is an acceptable way of getting an
address if it is not obvious during a site survey?

Regards,
Kim
Talk-au mailing list
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