Crowdfunding for OpenStreetMap in Bénin : 275km² high resolution satellite imagery for Cotonou by 1-May 2016!

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Re: Crowdfunding for OpenStreetMap in Bénin : 275km² high resolution satellite imagery for Cotonou

Mikel Maron-3
Hey I don't know really understand the discussion about charity, or what this has to do with all this sensitivity about the autonomy of a local community. I see a fundraiser for imagery, for purchase from a big satellite imagery provider. OSM Benin is doing amazing work, but it's not like they're trying to launch a satellite itself! This imagery can be gotten as a donation -- just like you're asking for donations now.  And those crowdfunding campaign donors, well I bet they're willing to trust a local communities decisions, as long as the community and OSM are strengthened. Suggesting this is not an insult -- absolutely none intended. Seems silly to not spend the money more productively, but that's my view and not my decision.

There are many imagery providers and services that have been willing to help with imagery for active projects -- this is nothing new in OSM. Just look at the Ecuador response to see the latest manifestation of that willingness. There are lots of great mapping efforts in West Africa and around the world, and we all know there are many gaps in imagery. If OSM Benin had asked for help with imagery before starting this fundraiser, you bet I would have helped; this is not about a bandwagon as you strangely suggest Rod. We need to prioritize needs, and seeing the community activity and organization in Cotonou is key to the thought -- this is a place that can really use imagery. In other words, both a gap in imagery coverage and an active use are ingredients to consider. 

So if OSM Benin can organize AOI for imagery needs, and demonstrate activity on the ground in those place, I don't see why other requests wouldn't be considered. I would love to talk directly with the OSM Benin team to understand the need, and there are many people who are happy to help cross language barriers to help with translation, and convey things in the best way possible.

-Mikel

 
* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron


On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 4:19 PM, Rod Bera <[hidden email]> wrote:


Hi John,

You seem not to imagine for a second people in the South can take
initiatives and do things by themselves, without resorting to a charity
from the North.

We agree charities can be effective (e.g. when there is a quake or
typhoon) by making possible a quick release of imagery.
Then only the real mapping work begins, by a reliable task force of OSM
mappers, maybe with HOT to organise things a bit.
However, such dramatic events happen in and around Cotonou too (esp.
floods), but seemingly not with enough casualties to hit the headlines.
Or to get proper imagery.

Besides, people in Cotonou and other areas of Benin have been waiting
for a while for decent maps, and OSM Bénin has worked a lot in an
adverse context (power and network outages, sometimes GPS, often field
papers with no workable base map, etc.)

As long as they were mapping in dire conditions, they seemed to attract
no attention from those imagery providers.

Now their initiative is having some success, imagery providers pop in.
Fair enough, and welcome, there are many more areas with no decent
imagery. And OSM Benin are keen to issue a list of other
imagery-deprived areas in Benin... and elsewhere.

You seem to argue resorting to charities and well established imagery
providers is better than doing thing oneself.
With such views OSM would simply not exist, we would still be relying on
mapping agencies, and there would have been no worldwide open alternative.

This argumentation "why would you do things by yourselves? we can give
you better" is a bit patronising and at the opposite of the OSM spirit.
Again, with such an ethos there would be no OSM project (back in 2004
and for several years after "well, mapping agencies are doing tremendous
work, after all, why sould we work on an alternative?" was a common answer)

This argumentation reminds me of the recent "go and buy yourselves
petrol for your bikes instead, and leave us the imagery stuff" (Mikel, I
know it's not an exact quotation, and that by the way you didn't want to
be insulting, but try and imagine how the fellow mappers in Benin can
take this).

Of course we are happy to see people "do better", but we are proud to
have communities who can cope without having to flatter those dominant
organisations, which by the way are useful as long as they don't want to
impose their views and practices in an exclusive way.

And more importantly there is room for everyone in OSM.

On cost effectiveness, granted (if you live in a country where tax
rebates of the kind apply, and if the charity you whish to donate to is
properly registered by the gov. of the country you live in... Common in
N. America and Europe, but don't assume this is the case everywhere).

However this $45 difference you're claiming is the cost of independence.
Yes, there are people who value independence this much.
There are people who feel better off if they don't have this impression
they owe something to an organisation (and a country, per their tax
incentive).

OSM can and does accommodate various practices, and this is fine. Let's
respect this diversity. Let's respect local OSM communities and chapters.

And let's not replay in OSM what many of us had to endure (and still
endure) for years in HOT.

Regards,

Rod

PS: Below the answer to Mikel's comment on Ulule. As his offer was
broadcasted on twitter and elsewhere my answer (on behalf of OSM Benin)
I think this should be too.






Hi Mikel, and thank you for your offer.

however, rearding your suggestions to use the funds differently:
- OSM Benin (like OSM Mali, OSM Senegal, OSM Togo, OSM Burkina Faso, OSM
Niger...) has already been organising mapping parties for a while
without having to turn to crowd-funding.
And OSM Benin, together with other West-African OSM communities intend
to carry on this way as much as possible.
- Donors so far have contributed for us to get imagery, not fuel. They'd
probably not understand such a change.

Now if Mapbox can update imagery this easily there are so many other
areas which need proper imagery in Benin alone.
Maybe Mapbox and you can better help by providing high resolution open
imagery for other areas such as
- Grand-Popo, West and South,
- Houéyogbé,
- Athiémé-Lokossa, East,
- Dogbo, SE,
- Toucountouna,
- Allada,
- Tori-Bossito,
- Zogbodomey, W,
- Za-Kpota,
- Paougnan,
- Dassa-Zoumè,
- Djabata,
- Ketou, E,
- Pobè,
- Adja-Ouèrè,
- Sakété, E,
- Bamounin, S,
- Tobré, NE,
- Kérou, E,
- Nassoukou,
- Nioro, E...
For a better account of imagery-deprived areas, You may have a look at
Bing maps, and play a bit with zoom levels. Of course if this helps we
can work on providing you with a corresponding geojson file.

Please let us know if you'd like to contribute this way,

Rod on behalf of OSM Bénin




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Re: Crowdfunding for OpenStreetMap in Bénin : 275km² high resolution satellite imagery for Cotonou

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Rod Bera


sent from a phone

> Il giorno 26 apr 2016, alle ore 22:16, Rod Bera <[hidden email]> ha scritto:
>
> You seem not to imagine for a second people in the South can take
> initiatives and do things by themselves, without resorting to a charity
> from the North.


on a side note, and not to dissent with your argument in general, Cotonou is still on the northern hemisphere ;-)

cheers,
Martin
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Re: Crowdfunding for OpenStreetMap in Bénin : 275km² high resolution satellite imagery for Cotonou

Rod Bera
In reply to this post by Mikel Maron-3
On 26/04/16 22:56, Mikel Maron wrote:
> Hey I don't know really understand the discussion about charity, or what
> this has to do with all this sensitivity about the autonomy of a local
> community.

Are you into diy? you can buy your stair, direct from a store, and have
it mounted by a specialist. Or you can do it yourself from scratch and
assemble it on your own. Some prefer option 1, and some feel
experiencing option 2 is worth trying. There is a pride in doing things
yourself.
I believe it is partly for this reasont that people at OSM Benin are
willing to go for option 2. Maybe for subsequent stairs they'll chose
option 1.

 I see a fundraiser for imagery, for purchase from a big
> satellite imagery provider. OSM Benin is doing amazing work, but it's
> not like they're trying to launch a satellite itself!

considering the environment in which they evolve, maybe it is after all.

> This imagery can
> be gotten as a donation -- just like you're asking for donations now.
>  And those crowdfunding campaign donors, well I bet they're willing to
> trust a local communities decisions, as long as the community and OSM
> are strengthened.

So what's your price for 275 sq km ? If the campaign runs only until May
1st it probably mean they need it very soon. Who knows how much time
this will take to move to a Mapbox solution?
Maybe it will be workable for subsequent AOIs, but for this one, doubt
is permitted.

> Suggesting this is not an insult -- absolutely none
> intended.

Obviously, but the way it is phrased... This is probably another
instance of the caution we must take when crossing language and cultural
barriers or subtleties. Not integrating them enough in HOT was an
amplifying factor in some painful episodes. Let's learn from this
experience and avoid replicating it in wider OSM.

> Seems silly to not spend the money more productively, but
> that's my view and not my decision.

Let's agree that this project puts the lights on the needs of OSM Benin.
And that with this initiative providers like Mapbox, IGN France int'l or
Digital Globe become aware of their needs and offer to help.
It's now up to parties to start express needs and offers.

Now, with the current crowd-funding project we're just talking about a
limited area. Imagery providers can help for many other.

You say money can be used more productively and I agree: many satellites
are built and sent onto orbit with a significant proportion of
tax-payer's money, so more imagery should be free.

This said you did not give details on how beneficial to OSM Benin it
would be to change their mind on this project.
And once again the short dead-line also seems to be an element to consider.



>
> There are many imagery providers and services that have been willing to
> help with imagery for active projects -- this is nothing new in OSM.
> Just look at the Ecuador response to see the latest manifestation of
> that willingness. There are lots of great mapping efforts in West Africa
> and around the world, and we all know there are many gaps in imagery. If
> OSM Benin had asked for help with imagery before starting this
> fundraiser, you bet I would have helped; this is not about a bandwagon
> as you strangely suggest Rod. We need to prioritize needs, and seeing
> the community activity and organization in Cotonou is key to the thought
> -- this is a place that can really use imagery. In other words, both a
> gap in imagery coverage and an active use are ingredients to consider.

We agree on this too. It is a matter of priority, but global priorities
are not always local ones.

>
> So if OSM Benin can organize AOI for imagery needs, and demonstrate
> activity on the ground in those place, I don't see why other requests
> wouldn't be considered.

This is much welcome and people from OSM Benin have expressed this already.
> I would love to talk directly with the OSM Benin
> team to understand the need, and there are many people who are happy to
> help cross language barriers to help with translation, and convey things
> in the best way possible.

yep.


Rod

PS:
btw you or Mapbox still can donate on this specific project. Less than
€400 to secure OSM Benin 275 sq km of Pleiades imagery, doesn't this
sounds like a good deal? ;-)


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Re: Crowdfunding for OpenStreetMap in Bénin : 275km² high resolution satellite imagery for Cotonou

Rod Bera
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
Hi Martin,

I said South, not Southern Hemisphere.
More, I said it as a way to make a distinction between "overdeveloped"
countries and countries which deserve a proper development effort,
following in this a common use in hum/dev.

Regards,

Rod


On 27/04/16 00:37, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> Il giorno 26 apr 2016, alle ore 22:16, Rod Bera <[hidden email]> ha scritto:
>>
>> You seem not to imagine for a second people in the South can take
>> initiatives and do things by themselves, without resorting to a charity
>> from the North.
>
>
> on a side note, and not to dissent with your argument in general, Cotonou is still on the northern hemisphere ;-)
>
> cheers,
> Martin
>



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Re: Crowdfunding for OpenStreetMap in Bénin : 275km² high resolution satellite imagery for Cotonou

john whelan-2


>You seem not to imagine for a second people in the South can take
initiatives and do things by themselves, without resorting to a charity
from the North.

Yours was a long post and I won’t go into detail on each point but these are the major ones:

I have no issue with someone spending their own money on imagery.  I think there are better ways to do this but I have no concerns about them spending their own money but this group which includes members from Benin Red Cross have made a request for funds with an invitation to donate money to a crowd sourcing institution and that changes things.

If I donate $60 to this institution then we first take off the exchange rate of say 5% then the 7-8% that the crowd sourcing institution takes.  So they receive around $50 in the field.  OSM maps are used for many many different purposes some add economic value, some where do people live so we can give them polio vaccines.  Polio is an issue in Cameroon which isn’t that far away.  Meningitis is an issue in Togo the country next door.  Benin Red Cross will almost certainly be making use of these maps.  My $60 donation to the Red Cross gives closer to $100 in the field.  Moving larger sums of money makes it worthwhile to seek out better rates.  Normally the Red Cross is very effective at negotiating extremely favourable rates for satellite imagery, which stretches the dollars even more.  If you’re asking me to donate money then I do have legitimate concerns that is stretched as far as possible at the lowest cost to myself.

In Africa we desperately lack people on the ground.  The French speaking areas especially.  I’ve done a fair amount of mapping in Cameroon both HOT and straight OSM and its rare we see a street name there and as for a coffee shops these are exceptionally rare as well. We are also desperately short of mappers.  In Cameroon we have some very good imagery but the HOT projects are nowhere near complete.  Africa in general isn’t well mapped.  The problems are more chronic so don’t get the attention of an earthquake but there is a very real need and the charities are operating there and imagery is being released in support of them.  In the ideal world much of this work would be done by governments but whilst in Europe governments tax and spend  40% of GDP in Africa it is much lower.

HOT I agree isn’t perfect but it does have a couple of good points. The first is the tile system, OSM Canada now has one set up for Canada.  The second is the concept of validation or checking over the work.  You can point new mappers in the right direction without having an instructor physically present.  I work fairly closely with a mapper in the Philippines and another in Wales and they’ve both developed into quite strong mappers.  I pulled in part of Cotonou and JOSM validation found a few errors and a number of warnings such as roads almost meeting or crossing without a node.  So using the tile system would help improve the quality of the map locally.  Having Francophones available to validate and give feedback to other mappers would help raise standards and educate them and that’s the desperate need in French speaking Africa.

OSM operates differently in different parts of the world.  In many ways it’s a map and in many ways its an eco-system.  JOSM for example was developed in Germany but its used in all parts of the world.  In many parts of Europe there are enough mappers to cycle round and map everything in sight.  In Canada we have fewer mappers per inch of highway and winter weather which is generally considered unfavourable for cycling so we’ve imported a lot of CANVEC data very successfully.  We still map coffee, cycle repair shops and wifi access points but in getting the basic road framework in especially in remote areas we’ve leveraged other sources.  For Africa I’m suggesting the same sort of thing.  This is a pragmatic approach get someone else to do some of the remote mapping.  I’m quite sure that there are programmers who could build their own version of  JOSM, mine would be in C++, but we leverage the work of others.  I’d hate to debug a new editor by the way.

I’m very much aware that OSM is made up of many different points of view and this is one of them.

My hope is that we can leverage the OSM expertise in Benin across the rest of French speaking Africa that they can do much better than an English speaking armchair mapper and we can rough fill the Benin map of the world using English speaking armchair mappers.  Remember though that many mappers like to support “their” charity so having a Charity brand name attached on it isn’t that bad.

Surely we aren’t at the stage where charities are seen as the darker side of life.  I think in the 1930's in the UK this was so and many liked to be independent rather than accept charity.  Hopefully today we can see them a little more positively.

Cheerio John

On 26 April 2016 at 19:02, Rod Bera <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Martin,

I said South, not Southern Hemisphere.
More, I said it as a way to make a distinction between "overdeveloped"
countries and countries which deserve a proper development effort,
following in this a common use in hum/dev.

Regards,

Rod


On 27/04/16 00:37, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> Il giorno 26 apr 2016, alle ore 22:16, Rod Bera <[hidden email]> ha scritto:
>>
>> You seem not to imagine for a second people in the South can take
>> initiatives and do things by themselves, without resorting to a charity
>> from the North.
>
>
> on a side note, and not to dissent with your argument in general, Cotonou is still on the northern hemisphere ;-)
>
> cheers,
> Martin
>



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Re: Crowdfunding for OpenStreetMap in Bénin : 275km² high resolution satellite imagery for Cotonou by 1-May 2016!

Greg Morgan
In reply to this post by SimonPoole
On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 10:52 AM, Simon Poole <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I'm slightly taken back by the number of people wanting to jump in and
> make decisions for a local community on a topic that has little bearing
> outside of their region.

...
>
>
> Simon


 Simon,

This is one of the most positive things that I've heard you say about
a local community deciding what to do!  Thank you.

The problem I have with both Christoph and Frederick statements from
Germany are that the comments have a feeling of not invented here and
more imperialism.  There is a smack of what's good for Germany is good
for everyone local mapping group out there.  Germany is about the size
of Montana USA.  Germany has a population of about 89 million people.
Montana has a population of around one million people.  Arm chair
mapping is perfectly good solution in this and many other cases.  The
whole meetup/pub mapping event just won't scale in areas like Montana.
I laugh when you want me to run out and GPS every node that I put on
the map where map density isn't there like in Germany.  Moreover,
there's this idea that consumer grade GPS devices are so much more
accurate compared to imagery.  What I have now is a _useful_ map using
all these tools regardless of their perceived accuracy.  Any way or
idea that builds upon the existing useful map is a great idea.

What I find interesting is that at least one of links shows Bénin
mappers using paper and pencil survey work.  It sounds like they want
better imagery to complement paper survey work with arm chair mapping.
Both types of mapping complement each other.  In both cases, errors
can be introduced into the map.  So what.  We are an Open Source
project with the idea of "release early and release often".  In
addition, OSM has a wonderful complement of tools to help correct any
mistakes.
https://projeteof.org/blog/crowdfunding-openstreetmap-au-benin-275km%C2%B2-dimagerie-satellite-haute-resolution-pour-cotonou-ce-1er-mai-2016/

When I read stories like this from MapBox...
"...And when we can make it better, we flag the area as a priority
collect. This creates a system where developers using the map SDK will
get the most updated imagery specifically where their users need it.
https://www.mapbox.com/blog/satellite-imagery-updates-telemetry/
...I get it.  MapBox is company that has to serve priority markets.
However, if all the the developers are in rich urban areas of the
world, then other areas may not see new imagery.  MapBox needs to pay
the bills to keep the lights on. MapBox may not be the solution in
this case.

>John, Ulule does not charge 40%, the fees reasonably amount to 7 or 8%, that's a notable difference.
>If I donate $100 to a charity the net cost to me is $60 and $100 is more or less available at the end.
> If I donate $60 to the crowdsourcing then $55 arrives at the end.  So if we can get creative with a charity
> the money goes further.  Different western countries have different rules but basically if it can be channeled
> through a charity more cash ends up on the ground.

So don't contribute to the crowdfunding effort.  Many businesses will
take something that was purchased for $50 and sell it for $100.  They
have to cover overhead and make a profit to stay in business. A loss
of $5 to overhead for $60 dollars sounds like a very efficient method
to channel funds to where it is needed.  For  example, I don't donate
to Unicef. I used to go around and collect pennies for that group when
I was young.  It was disturbing to find out that only one US cent of
each dollar actually made it to the children in need.  I don't know if
they improved their record from those days but in my case the damage
was done.  The crowd funding example that has been cited is not the
same kind-of overhead.

> nicolas chavent  wrote
> There is a local OSM group active in Benin since mid 2013,
> This group is skilled they got trained via (capacity building missions run
> by the collective Projet EOF) and had been always self training and growing
> their skills, growing their community and training Academic, Benin Red Cross
> Volunteers, Civil workers from local government, folks from the local tech
> scene etc...
> This group has a few equipments at hand,
> They share a co-working space (Blolab) in Cotonou with other tech actors,
> They have been active in their country (several places and various mapping
> project) and in Western Africa through regional 3 to 4 weeks long capacity
> building missions involving a lot of field and remote mapping work
> They operate mostly on a voluntary basis with low means and they grow their
> map and their community.
> They decided to crowdfund for these 275km2 high res imagery in Cotonou
> because this has been blocking them and that a few additional GPS Units will
> not make the difference, but this imagery will do!

 I don't see what the problem is.  Bénin mappers have already
performed an analysis of the problem.  I don't see why they cannot
proceed. If Digital Globe, MapBox or any other organization what to
contribute to the Bénin project, then then that is even better.  The
Bénin mappers are very savvy.  They have used a crowd funding site to
freely advertise their efforts and perhaps receive direct
contributions.  Well then, it might be smart for Digital Globe,
Mapbox, or another organization to setup a crowdfunding section of
their websites.  A 501C section of the said firms could collect money
to fund some of these efforts without the overhead of crowd funding
sites.  The reward would be great publicity. More that likely, there
still will be costs that cannot be absorbed by goodwill alone.

Regards,
Greg

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Re: Crowdfunding for OpenStreetMap in Bénin : 275km² high resolution satellite imagery for Cotonou by 1-May 2016!

nicolas chavent
Hi Greg and all,

Greg, we are 100% in agreement (your text is below).
OSM Benin folks know their country, their OSM stuffs, their needs and the support of the collective ProjetEOF did crowdsource (with success from yesterda) for high res imagery over Cotonou
This allow to open a dialogue with Digital Globe wich hopefully may lead to additional creative options for imagery delivery usable to enrich OSM. 
Thanks for those who participated into this effort.
The overall is positive for OSM Benin and OSM tout court and in Cotonou this will change the map, the community, and foster the opendata dynamic through the production and release of OSM data.
Let's rejoy and for those adhering to the OSM Benin way, work collectively into making Cotonou a nicely mapped city.
Folks from Mali, France already started to travel to Cotonou, others from Niger, Burkina, Ivory Coast, Senegal and France are getting ready to hit the road or board train and plane: we will be around 20 there for 3 weeks working in a capacity building program around OSM, GIS (QGIS), webGIS (uMap/Leaflet), Spatial Data Infrastructure (Georchestra), opendata, humanitarian and development topics tied to organizationl skills and techniques. We will be working with OSM Benin partners in the tech scene, Academic, Local/Central Government, NGOs, Red Cross, journalists and Civil Society.
Details on this mission blog post (1,2), more updates (including English versions) to follow on this account and social media. On twitter, stay tuned to @OSMBenin, @ProjetEOF, #map4bj, #ProjetEOF).

Best,
++

> nicolas chavent  wrote
> There is a local OSM group active in Benin since mid 2013,
> This group is skilled they got trained via (capacity building missions run
> by the collective Projet EOF) and had been always self training and growing
> their skills, growing their community and training Academic, Benin Red Cross
> Volunteers, Civil workers from local government, folks from the local tech
> scene etc...
> This group has a few equipments at hand,
> They share a co-working space (Blolab) in Cotonou with other tech actors,
> They have been active in their country (several places and various mapping
> project) and in Western Africa through regional 3 to 4 weeks long capacity
> building missions involving a lot of field and remote mapping work
> They operate mostly on a voluntary basis with low means and they grow their
> map and their community.
> They decided to crowdfund for these 275km2 high res imagery in Cotonou
> because this has been blocking them and that a few additional GPS Units will
> not make the difference, but this imagery will do!

 I don't see what the problem is.  Bénin mappers have already
performed an analysis of the problem.  I don't see why they cannot
proceed. If Digital Globe, MapBox or any other organization what to
contribute to the Bénin project, then then that is even better.  The
Bénin mappers are very savvy.  They have used a crowd funding site to
freely advertise their efforts and perhaps receive direct
contributions.  Well then, it might be smart for Digital Globe,
Mapbox, or another organization to setup a crowdfunding section of
their websites.  A 501C section of the said firms could collect money
to fund some of these efforts without the overhead of crowd funding
sites.  The reward would be great publicity. More that likely, there
still will be costs that cannot be absorbed by goodwill alone.

Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 8:55 AM, Greg Morgan <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 10:52 AM, Simon Poole <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I'm slightly taken back by the number of people wanting to jump in and
> make decisions for a local community on a topic that has little bearing
> outside of their region.

...
>
>
> Simon


 Simon,

This is one of the most positive things that I've heard you say about
a local community deciding what to do!  Thank you.

The problem I have with both Christoph and Frederick statements from
Germany are that the comments have a feeling of not invented here and
more imperialism.  There is a smack of what's good for Germany is good
for everyone local mapping group out there.  Germany is about the size
of Montana USA.  Germany has a population of about 89 million people.
Montana has a population of around one million people.  Arm chair
mapping is perfectly good solution in this and many other cases.  The
whole meetup/pub mapping event just won't scale in areas like Montana.
I laugh when you want me to run out and GPS every node that I put on
the map where map density isn't there like in Germany.  Moreover,
there's this idea that consumer grade GPS devices are so much more
accurate compared to imagery.  What I have now is a _useful_ map using
all these tools regardless of their perceived accuracy.  Any way or
idea that builds upon the existing useful map is a great idea.

What I find interesting is that at least one of links shows Bénin
mappers using paper and pencil survey work.  It sounds like they want
better imagery to complement paper survey work with arm chair mapping.
Both types of mapping complement each other.  In both cases, errors
can be introduced into the map.  So what.  We are an Open Source
project with the idea of "release early and release often".  In
addition, OSM has a wonderful complement of tools to help correct any
mistakes.
https://projeteof.org/blog/crowdfunding-openstreetmap-au-benin-275km%C2%B2-dimagerie-satellite-haute-resolution-pour-cotonou-ce-1er-mai-2016/

When I read stories like this from MapBox...
"...And when we can make it better, we flag the area as a priority
collect. This creates a system where developers using the map SDK will
get the most updated imagery specifically where their users need it.
https://www.mapbox.com/blog/satellite-imagery-updates-telemetry/
...I get it.  MapBox is company that has to serve priority markets.
However, if all the the developers are in rich urban areas of the
world, then other areas may not see new imagery.  MapBox needs to pay
the bills to keep the lights on. MapBox may not be the solution in
this case.

>John, Ulule does not charge 40%, the fees reasonably amount to 7 or 8%, that's a notable difference.
>If I donate $100 to a charity the net cost to me is $60 and $100 is more or less available at the end.
> If I donate $60 to the crowdsourcing then $55 arrives at the end.  So if we can get creative with a charity
> the money goes further.  Different western countries have different rules but basically if it can be channeled
> through a charity more cash ends up on the ground.

So don't contribute to the crowdfunding effort.  Many businesses will
take something that was purchased for $50 and sell it for $100.  They
have to cover overhead and make a profit to stay in business. A loss
of $5 to overhead for $60 dollars sounds like a very efficient method
to channel funds to where it is needed.  For  example, I don't donate
to Unicef. I used to go around and collect pennies for that group when
I was young.  It was disturbing to find out that only one US cent of
each dollar actually made it to the children in need.  I don't know if
they improved their record from those days but in my case the damage
was done.  The crowd funding example that has been cited is not the
same kind-of overhead.

> nicolas chavent  wrote
> There is a local OSM group active in Benin since mid 2013,
> This group is skilled they got trained via (capacity building missions run
> by the collective Projet EOF) and had been always self training and growing
> their skills, growing their community and training Academic, Benin Red Cross
> Volunteers, Civil workers from local government, folks from the local tech
> scene etc...
> This group has a few equipments at hand,
> They share a co-working space (Blolab) in Cotonou with other tech actors,
> They have been active in their country (several places and various mapping
> project) and in Western Africa through regional 3 to 4 weeks long capacity
> building missions involving a lot of field and remote mapping work
> They operate mostly on a voluntary basis with low means and they grow their
> map and their community.
> They decided to crowdfund for these 275km2 high res imagery in Cotonou
> because this has been blocking them and that a few additional GPS Units will
> not make the difference, but this imagery will do!

 I don't see what the problem is.  Bénin mappers have already
performed an analysis of the problem.  I don't see why they cannot
proceed. If Digital Globe, MapBox or any other organization what to
contribute to the Bénin project, then then that is even better.  The
Bénin mappers are very savvy.  They have used a crowd funding site to
freely advertise their efforts and perhaps receive direct
contributions.  Well then, it might be smart for Digital Globe,
Mapbox, or another organization to setup a crowdfunding section of
their websites.  A 501C section of the said firms could collect money
to fund some of these efforts without the overhead of crowd funding
sites.  The reward would be great publicity. More that likely, there
still will be costs that cannot be absorbed by goodwill alone.

Regards,
Greg

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Re: Crowdfunding for OpenStreetMap in Bénin : 275km² high resolution satellite imagery for Cotonou by 1-May 2016!

Christoph Hormann
In reply to this post by Greg Morgan
On Thursday 28 April 2016, Greg Morgan wrote:
>
> The problem I have with both Christoph and Frederick statements from
> Germany are that the comments have a feeling of not invented here and
> more imperialism.

I think you are barking up the wrong tree here.  

Most of my mapping in OSM is in areas much more severely
underrepresented in usual image sources than Benin.  So i am well aware
of the problem of cultural and economic bias in remote mapping sources
and i have also discussed this several years ago already [1].

But you do not solve this problem by buying satellite imagery for the
areas you find underrepresented.  Satellite operators like
Airbus-DS/CNES and DigitalGlobe are not any more neutral than companies
like Mapbox, they likewise 'serve priority markets' and you are not
going to change these priorities with a few thousand bucks of crowd
sourced money.  To really overcome these problems you'd need to create
the means to locally produce comparable data sources through aerial
imaging.

But to do something productive instead of just talking i set up some
open imagery for the area in question [2].  This is of course not in
any way comparable to what is envisioned by the Benin community but it
is way better than what in the crowd funding campain is shown as the
currently available level.  You won't be able to trace buildings or
smaller urban streets from it but there is still a lot of map-worthy
stuff that can be derived from this data (even more if you also use
infrared data which i left out for the purpose of ease of use) and it
is recent, from December last year.  Also this should show that there
are truly open image sources that are frequently better in either
actuality or resolution than what Bing and Mapbox offer.

[1] http://blog.imagico.de/new-franz-josef-land-map/
[2]
http://maps.imagico.de/#map=9/6.702/2.215&lang=en&l=sat&r=osmim&o=3&ui=8
tms:http://imagico.de/map/osmim_tiles.php?layer=S2A_R022_N06_20151221T103009&z={zoom}&x={x}&y={-y}

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http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: Crowdfunding for OpenStreetMap in Bénin : 275km² high resolution satellite imagery for Cotonou by 1-May 2016!

Frederik Ramm
In reply to this post by Greg Morgan
Hi,

On 04/28/16 08:55, Greg Morgan wrote:
> The problem I have with both Christoph and Frederick statements from
> Germany are that the comments have a feeling of not invented here and
> more imperialism.

The main problem I have with armchair mapping is not "people map an area
without going out", it's "people map an area without EVER HAVING BEEN
THERE".

I'm less concerned about you mapping your extended home region from
aerial imagery (assuming for a moment that you live in Montana). If you
find something on an image that makes you wonder, you can always make a
small detour on your next trip to the supermarket and check it out in
person, plus you'll know what kind of builidngs are common in the area
and so on.

What I think is bad for data quality is people from thousands of miles
away "helping" by tracing from aerial imagery without local knowledge.
This might work for the most basic of features but it has been shown
that even something as seemingly straigforward as the tracing of
buildings can go quite wrong if you don't know anything about the
culture and the area, and *this* has been branded (accidental)
imperialism by some - "what looks like a German barn on the aerial image
certainly must be a barn in Ghana too".

> Germany is about the size
> of Montana USA.  Germany has a population of about 89 million people.
> Montana has a population of around one million people.

The city of Coutonou alone - to come back to the subject - has 800k
inhabitants, so a lower bound for the population density in the area
being discussed here is 3000 people per square kilometre; about 1000
times as much as Montana and about 10 times as much as Germany. I do
realize that People in Coutonou might have other priorities in live than
the spoilt kids in Germany but I don't think it serves your argument to
invoke population density.

> Arm chair
> mapping is perfectly good solution in this and many other cases.

I dont't think that arm chair mapping is "perfectly good" in many cases,
I think the risk of said accidental imperialism is too high. Would you
want Montana mapped by people who've never even been to the US and
perhaps don't even speak English?

Bye
Frederik

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Re: Crowdfunding for OpenStreetMap in Bénin : 275km² high resolution satellite imagery for Cotonou by 1-May 2016!

nicolas chavent
Hi Christoph, Frederik and all,

Thanks Christoph and Frederik for your two emails, two points related to Benin :

Christoph, thanks for setting up that hosting and serving of 100% opendata resources that we will be using in compliment of the freshly purchased imagery over Cotonou for data creation in OSM. We will also be using it locally in RS and this is a real add on for sure. Since 2012 with the overall support of Frederic Moine (aka Fred cc'ed), drones have been used in Haiti in crisis response (Sandy Haiti 2012) and in development/preparedness contexte over Haiti by a collective of Haitian dronistes also membres of OSM groups in Haiti (cc'ed Jean Presler aka Pres) with some support of the International Organization Of Migration (IOM), Drones Adventures, CartONG (Fred having designed and run a community drone campaign support program for that French NGO) (1). Fred and the Haitian dronists crew work has been pioneer in drone uses in real crisis response work and at community level and held as a reference by domain experts (UNOSAT etc, Fred can provide materials). This is what we are looking at doing to fully address OSM imagery needs through 100% hyper high res imagery in Western Africa via a South-South cooperation mechanisms allowing Haitian and African to collect imagery via drones and map it jointly both in Haiti and Africa. The connection already exists and in our last Togo capacity building mission, we had a mapathon where by Western Africans mapped Areas at risk in Port Au Prince (Haiti) tracing over an imagery collected by the local Haitian droners and mappers (2,3). This unfortunately requires funding we did not manage to secure yet and are working on it. Purchasing imagery for OSM is one option at hand to boost mapping in Cotonou via remote AND intensive field work done by Benin mappers and partners in Academic, NGOs, Local Gov, Tech etc.

@Frederik, your point is well heard in Bénin where remote mapping will not kill, nor demotivate, nor diminish field work, it will go hand in hand and contribute to more efficiently use scarse voluntary or hyper small budget resources and get more impact, enrich the map, grow the community and enlarge the circle of partners + gain remote support from other Western African groups and the overall global community.

Thanks for your two emails, apologies if any of the above clarification is too long, I just felt details specific to the Benin were necessary at this stage.  

On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 3:02 PM, Frederik Ramm <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

On 04/28/16 08:55, Greg Morgan wrote:
> The problem I have with both Christoph and Frederick statements from
> Germany are that the comments have a feeling of not invented here and
> more imperialism.

The main problem I have with armchair mapping is not "people map an area
without going out", it's "people map an area without EVER HAVING BEEN
THERE".

I'm less concerned about you mapping your extended home region from
aerial imagery (assuming for a moment that you live in Montana). If you
find something on an image that makes you wonder, you can always make a
small detour on your next trip to the supermarket and check it out in
person, plus you'll know what kind of builidngs are common in the area
and so on.

What I think is bad for data quality is people from thousands of miles
away "helping" by tracing from aerial imagery without local knowledge.
This might work for the most basic of features but it has been shown
that even something as seemingly straigforward as the tracing of
buildings can go quite wrong if you don't know anything about the
culture and the area, and *this* has been branded (accidental)
imperialism by some - "what looks like a German barn on the aerial image
certainly must be a barn in Ghana too".

> Germany is about the size
> of Montana USA.  Germany has a population of about 89 million people.
> Montana has a population of around one million people.

The city of Coutonou alone - to come back to the subject - has 800k
inhabitants, so a lower bound for the population density in the area
being discussed here is 3000 people per square kilometre; about 1000
times as much as Montana and about 10 times as much as Germany. I do
realize that People in Coutonou might have other priorities in live than
the spoilt kids in Germany but I don't think it serves your argument to
invoke population density.

> Arm chair
> mapping is perfectly good solution in this and many other cases.

I dont't think that arm chair mapping is "perfectly good" in many cases,
I think the risk of said accidental imperialism is too high. Would you
want Montana mapped by people who've never even been to the US and
perhaps don't even speak English?

Bye
Frederik

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Projet Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team (HOT)
Projet Espace OSM Francophone (EOF)
Mobile (FRA): +33 (0)6 52 40 78 20
Mobile (CIV): +225 78 12 76 99
Email: [hidden email]
Skype: c_nicolas
Twitter: nicolas_chavent

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