DWG survey on organised editing

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DWG survey on organised editing

Paul Norman
The Data Working Group is conducting a survey as part of its work on a
policy covering paid mapping.

When OpenStreetMap started, it was largely a project of hobbyists
contributing to OSM in their spare time. They chose freely what to map
and which tools to use, and they took individual responsibility for
their contributions.

The continuing growth and popularity of OSM have also brought more and
more organised mapping efforts, mostly in the form of companies setting
up paid data teams to improve OSM data in specific regions or for
specific use cases, but also unpaid groups like school classes that are
directed to work on OSM.

These organised mapping efforts are an integral part of today's OSM
contribution landscape and, when done well, help make OSM better and
more widely known.

In order to ensure good communication, and a level playing field,
between individual community members and organised editing groups, the
OSMF Data Working Group has been tasked with developing guidelines for
organised groups. These guidelines will above all set out some
transparency requirements for organised groups - things that are already
voluntarily followed by most groups today, like informing the mapping
community about which accounts edit for the team.

We have prepared the following survey with a few questions about such a
policy to give us a better understanding of what the mapping community
expects from such a policy. The survey is aimed at everyone editing (or
planning to edit) in OSM, whether as individual mappers or as part of a
team, and your answers will help us in fleshing out a draft policy.

Within the scope of the survey, and the policy to be written, we define
paid mapping (or paid editing) as any editing in OSM performed by
someone who is told by a third party what to map (and potentially also
how to map it) and who receives money in exchange. We define other
organised mapping (or editing) as any editing that is also steered by a
third party, but where no money is paid.

The survey is available at https://osm-dwg.limequery.org/741554

--
Paul Norman
For the OSM Data Working Group


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Re: DWG survey on organised editing

Nicolás Alvarez
2017-09-20 1:51 GMT-03:00 Paul Norman <[hidden email]>:
> The Data Working Group is conducting a survey as part of its work on a
> policy covering paid mapping.

Thanks for this, I think it's an important topic. In Argentina we're
dealing with an organization or program that is "teaching" school
teachers to map (more like telling them to do it without any actual
instruction). This leads to thousands of accounts making <5 edits
each, usually breaking something in the process, and the local mapper
community is struggling to identify them and keep up with the cleanup.
I can elaborate on this particular case if you're interested (too
tired for that right now).

> The survey is available at https://osm-dwg.limequery.org/741554

Grammar error or typo: "Individual mappers can expected to
communicate". Is this supposed to be "can expect to" or "can be
expected to"?

--
Nicolás

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Re: DWG survey on organised editing

Christoph Hormann-2
In reply to this post by Paul Norman
On Wednesday 20 September 2017, Paul Norman wrote:
>
> The survey is available at https://osm-dwg.limequery.org/741554

Looks good.

To get a broad spectrum of opinions i would encourage everyone to
participate - even those who usually just map on their own without much
interaction with the community outside mapping itself.

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http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: DWG survey on organised editing

john whelan-2
In reply to this post by Paul Norman
In the case of organised mapping such as the Statistics Canada organised efforts whom would you like to respond? 

Remembering that some of the terms used in the survey such as change set are such that a senior manager wouldn't have the faintest idea of what the term means and some of the players may have moved on to other projects?

Perhaps one question might be did you consult with local mappers before the project?

Cheerio John

On 20 September 2017 at 00:51, Paul Norman <[hidden email]> wrote:
The Data Working Group is conducting a survey as part of its work on a
policy covering paid mapping.

When OpenStreetMap started, it was largely a project of hobbyists
contributing to OSM in their spare time. They chose freely what to map
and which tools to use, and they took individual responsibility for
their contributions.

The continuing growth and popularity of OSM have also brought more and
more organised mapping efforts, mostly in the form of companies setting
up paid data teams to improve OSM data in specific regions or for
specific use cases, but also unpaid groups like school classes that are
directed to work on OSM.

These organised mapping efforts are an integral part of today's OSM
contribution landscape and, when done well, help make OSM better and
more widely known.

In order to ensure good communication, and a level playing field,
between individual community members and organised editing groups, the
OSMF Data Working Group has been tasked with developing guidelines for
organised groups. These guidelines will above all set out some
transparency requirements for organised groups - things that are already
voluntarily followed by most groups today, like informing the mapping
community about which accounts edit for the team.

We have prepared the following survey with a few questions about such a
policy to give us a better understanding of what the mapping community
expects from such a policy. The survey is aimed at everyone editing (or
planning to edit) in OSM, whether as individual mappers or as part of a
team, and your answers will help us in fleshing out a draft policy.

Within the scope of the survey, and the policy to be written, we define
paid mapping (or paid editing) as any editing in OSM performed by
someone who is told by a third party what to map (and potentially also
how to map it) and who receives money in exchange. We define other
organised mapping (or editing) as any editing that is also steered by a
third party, but where no money is paid.

The survey is available at https://osm-dwg.limequery.org/741554

--
Paul Norman
For the OSM Data Working Group


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Re: DWG survey on organised editing

James-2
Also does organised mapping include groups that hold little mapathons? Example a local mapping group from Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal or Ottawa decide to say map sidewalks in their city. It's an organised event. Would they be included as well?

The terms used in this survey seem a little vague and can be left to interpretation.

On Sep 20, 2017 7:09 AM, "john whelan" <[hidden email]> wrote:
In the case of organised mapping such as the Statistics Canada organised efforts whom would you like to respond? 

Remembering that some of the terms used in the survey such as change set are such that a senior manager wouldn't have the faintest idea of what the term means and some of the players may have moved on to other projects?

Perhaps one question might be did you consult with local mappers before the project?

Cheerio John

On 20 September 2017 at 00:51, Paul Norman <[hidden email]> wrote:
The Data Working Group is conducting a survey as part of its work on a
policy covering paid mapping.

When OpenStreetMap started, it was largely a project of hobbyists
contributing to OSM in their spare time. They chose freely what to map
and which tools to use, and they took individual responsibility for
their contributions.

The continuing growth and popularity of OSM have also brought more and
more organised mapping efforts, mostly in the form of companies setting
up paid data teams to improve OSM data in specific regions or for
specific use cases, but also unpaid groups like school classes that are
directed to work on OSM.

These organised mapping efforts are an integral part of today's OSM
contribution landscape and, when done well, help make OSM better and
more widely known.

In order to ensure good communication, and a level playing field,
between individual community members and organised editing groups, the
OSMF Data Working Group has been tasked with developing guidelines for
organised groups. These guidelines will above all set out some
transparency requirements for organised groups - things that are already
voluntarily followed by most groups today, like informing the mapping
community about which accounts edit for the team.

We have prepared the following survey with a few questions about such a
policy to give us a better understanding of what the mapping community
expects from such a policy. The survey is aimed at everyone editing (or
planning to edit) in OSM, whether as individual mappers or as part of a
team, and your answers will help us in fleshing out a draft policy.

Within the scope of the survey, and the policy to be written, we define
paid mapping (or paid editing) as any editing in OSM performed by
someone who is told by a third party what to map (and potentially also
how to map it) and who receives money in exchange. We define other
organised mapping (or editing) as any editing that is also steered by a
third party, but where no money is paid.

The survey is available at https://osm-dwg.limequery.org/741554

--
Paul Norman
For the OSM Data Working Group


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Re: DWG survey on organised editing

Christoph Hormann-2
On Wednesday 20 September 2017, James wrote:
> Also does organised mapping include groups that hold little
> mapathons? Example a local mapping group from Vancouver, Toronto,
> Montreal or Ottawa decide to say map sidewalks in their city. It's an
> organised event. Would they be included as well?
>
> The terms used in this survey seem a little vague and can be left to
> interpretation.

I think you are misunderstanding the idea of the survey here - this is
not a vote on a regulation of organized editing, it is meant to gather
opinions of OSM community members on the matter.  Classifying organized
editing activities in a fine grained way would be beyond the scope of
such a simple exploratory survey.

You can be sure the DWG knows that there is a broad range of organized
editing activities and that even within the definitions given for the
survey there is room for interpretation.

--
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http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: DWG survey on organised editing

Frederik Ramm
In reply to this post by James-2
Hi,

On 20.09.2017 13:17, James wrote:
> Also does organised mapping include groups that hold little mapathons?
> Example a local mapping group from Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal or
> Ottawa decide to say map sidewalks in their city. It's an organised
> event. Would they be included as well?
>
> The terms used in this survey seem a little vague and can be left to
> interpretation.

It is likely that any policy we come up with later will also leave room
for interpretation and this will be necessary to make it work.

I think they key issues are choice and responsibility. If you have a
group of experienced mappers getting together and doing something, then
they are not "told by a third party what to map"; they do what they
would otherwise do, just together. They act as individuals vis-a-vis the
community, they feel responsible for their edits, and there's no need to
put up rules. They're no different from a mapping party of old.

If you have, on the other hand, a group of people who have never mapped
and who "just follow orders" (whether written or spoken), and who when
challenged about their edits would likely shrug and say "I just did what
the lead sidewalk mapping guy said, you'll have to take it up with him",
then that's clearly organised mapping.

There's a grey area in between, especially since you might have both
types of contributors mixed at an event, but also because you can choose
different words to describe the same event.

Certainly "organised" doesn't simply mean that someone gets a room an
pizza. They would have to provide instruction and guidance too.

Bye
Frederik

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Re: DWG survey on organised editing

James-2
In reply to this post by Christoph Hormann-2
It was an example of "organised editing". If a "local group" invites newbies/other people to edit a specific thing (sidewalks, buildings, roads etc) does that policy cover them as well or are they counted more as "normal mapping"? One could argue that: "We define other
organised mapping (or editing) as any editing that is also steered by a third party, but where no money is paid.". A local group could tell the group what and how to map as much as a outside company could do the same. I'm asking where do you draw the line on who is an organised mapper vs normal mapper(to which the new policy wouldn't apply)

On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 7:46 AM, Christoph Hormann <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Wednesday 20 September 2017, James wrote:
> Also does organised mapping include groups that hold little
> mapathons? Example a local mapping group from Vancouver, Toronto,
> Montreal or Ottawa decide to say map sidewalks in their city. It's an
> organised event. Would they be included as well?
>
> The terms used in this survey seem a little vague and can be left to
> interpretation.

I think you are misunderstanding the idea of the survey here - this is
not a vote on a regulation of organized editing, it is meant to gather
opinions of OSM community members on the matter.  Classifying organized
editing activities in a fine grained way would be beyond the scope of
such a simple exploratory survey.

You can be sure the DWG knows that there is a broad range of organized
editing activities and that even within the definitions given for the
survey there is room for interpretation.

--
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http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: DWG survey on organised editing

James-2
In reply to this post by Frederik Ramm
Thank you Frederik for the clearification, so a Stammtisch as you call it would not be affected by the policy unless there was outside influence(unexperienced mapper that says map this in osm, example: political/voting districts(which is why the policy would be there to tell them that this is not appropriate for osm))

On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 7:57 AM, Frederik Ramm <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

On 20.09.2017 13:17, James wrote:
> Also does organised mapping include groups that hold little mapathons?
> Example a local mapping group from Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal or
> Ottawa decide to say map sidewalks in their city. It's an organised
> event. Would they be included as well?
>
> The terms used in this survey seem a little vague and can be left to
> interpretation.

It is likely that any policy we come up with later will also leave room
for interpretation and this will be necessary to make it work.

I think they key issues are choice and responsibility. If you have a
group of experienced mappers getting together and doing something, then
they are not "told by a third party what to map"; they do what they
would otherwise do, just together. They act as individuals vis-a-vis the
community, they feel responsible for their edits, and there's no need to
put up rules. They're no different from a mapping party of old.

If you have, on the other hand, a group of people who have never mapped
and who "just follow orders" (whether written or spoken), and who when
challenged about their edits would likely shrug and say "I just did what
the lead sidewalk mapping guy said, you'll have to take it up with him",
then that's clearly organised mapping.

There's a grey area in between, especially since you might have both
types of contributors mixed at an event, but also because you can choose
different words to describe the same event.

Certainly "organised" doesn't simply mean that someone gets a room an
pizza. They would have to provide instruction and guidance too.

Bye
Frederik

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Re: DWG survey on organised editing

Greg Troxel-2
In reply to this post by Paul Norman

I think the survey asks excellent questions.

One nit is that while I think the notion of paid/organized as a single
notion is generally good, I do see a distinction in one area, and might
have answered the anonymous question differently for the two sub-groups.

Besides paid and unpaid, there is also the question of students in a
class.  While they aren't paid, it seems much closer to the paid case,
because the leader has control over them.  So perhaps even if the
mappers are unpaid, they should be considered in the paid category if
there is any kind of power relationship with the leader that is larger
than just deciding to participate in a mapping activity.

For example, if I offered a class through the local adult ed "intro to
mapping with osm", and people signed up, that would be just about that
class, people would have signed up only to learn, not to get any
credentialss, there are no grades, etc., so this is merely organized not
paid.  But if as part of a college degree program, one of the classes
expects people to learn to map, and how you do affects grades etc., that
is far more like paid in terms of the obligation to comply.

I think the notion that the line is crossed when someone begins to act
as other than an individual mapper who intends to contribute over the
long term.  Deferring to one's group leader when questioned is clear
evidence of this.

I agree that many of the possible problems can arise similarly for paid
and un-paid organized mappers.  However, for paid mapping, there is a
much more serious possible conflict of interest in terms of the paid
mapper optimizing for the metrics of how they are paid rather than the
good of the overall project.  I suspect that the unpaid organized
mappers are trying to make the map better, even if for some particular
user.

I wonder if paying for number of objects added, vs by the hour, is more
likely to be problematic.

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Re: DWG survey on organised editing

Frederik Ramm
In reply to this post by Paul Norman
Everyone,

On 20.09.2017 06:51, Paul Norman wrote:
> The Data Working Group is conducting a survey as part of its work on a
> policy covering paid mapping.

We plan to close the survey on Sunday night (at 23:59:59 UTC), that's 2
days and 16 hours from now. We'll then take some time to analyze the
results and share them with you, then draft a policy informed by the
results and the discussion here and elsewhere, and present that for
further discussion.

Bye
Frederik

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Re: DWG survey on organised editing

Frederik Ramm
In reply to this post by Paul Norman
Hi,

the results are in!

https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Data_Working_Group/Results_of_Organised_Editing_Survey_2017

Thank you everyone who participated.

Bye
Frederik

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Re: DWG survey on organised editing

john whelan-2
Probably what we could do with is a set of guidelines for people organising mapping groups.  This is not policy so much as best practices.

Could this be done before we thrash out a policy?

Thanks John

On 17 Oct 2017 8:27 pm, "Frederik Ramm" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

the results are in!

https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Data_Working_Group/Results_of_Organised_Editing_Survey_2017

Thank you everyone who participated.

Bye
Frederik

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Re: DWG survey on organised editing

Yves
That's a good point, starting with an OSMF guideline, then after a while, a policy if needed.
Or do you mean a wiki community written guideline?
Yves

Le 18 octobre 2017 03:05:28 GMT+02:00, john whelan <[hidden email]> a écrit :
Probably what we could do with is a set of guidelines for people organising mapping groups.  This is not policy so much as best practices.

Could this be done before we thrash out a policy?

Thanks John

On 17 Oct 2017 8:27 pm, "Frederik Ramm" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

the results are in!

https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Data_Working_Group/Results_of_Organised_Editing_Survey_2017

Thank you everyone who participated.

Bye
Frederik

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Re: DWG survey on organised editing

john whelan-2
Having just witnessed  a major screw up by a local University who didn't understand how we do things and managed to both mess up the map and the 150 student assignments a wiki community written guideline would be a good start.

The intentions were good but the impact wasn't for both sides and it would be nice to avoid similar situations in future.

Perhaps something in learnOSM or a pointer in there.  Make it easy to find for those who are thinking of giving students an assignment especially if it will count towards their final grade.

Thanks John

On 18 October 2017 at 06:31, Yves <[hidden email]> wrote:
That's a good point, starting with an OSMF guideline, then after a while, a policy if needed.
Or do you mean a wiki community written guideline?
Yves

Le 18 octobre 2017 03:05:28 GMT+02:00, john whelan <[hidden email]> a écrit :
Probably what we could do with is a set of guidelines for people organising mapping groups.  This is not policy so much as best practices.

Could this be done before we thrash out a policy?

Thanks John

On 17 Oct 2017 8:27 pm, "Frederik Ramm" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

the results are in!

https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Data_Working_Group/Results_of_Organised_Editing_Survey_2017

Thank you everyone who participated.

Bye
Frederik

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