Definition of Sport

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Definition of Sport

Warin
From the talk here on juggling and private conversations with others there are various 'definitions' of the key 'sport' in use by OSM mappers.

There are various definitions of the word sport in various dictionaries. 

The Macquarie (Australian):
        
  

List some 20 various meanings/definitions .. e.g.

16. to have or ware, especially ostentatiously or proudly

12. Biology. an animal or plant, or part of a plant that shows an unusual  or singular deviation from  normal or parent type; a mutation.

Of more relevance here

1. an activity pursued for exercise or pleasure, usually requiring some degree of physical prowess

2. a particular form of such activity, such as racing, cricket, tennis, golf, bowling, wrestling, boxing, etc.

The Cambridge dictionary: 1) a game, competition, or activity         needing physical effort and skill that is played or done according to rules, for enjoyment and/or as a job: 2) all types of physical activity that people do to keep healthy or for enjoyment:

-------------------

So there are various definitions. Which one should OSM use?

I'll place my rough definitions here

A) A physical competition played according to rules.

B) As for A) but includes practising for the sport

c) as for B) but includes non competitive physical activity.

Thoughts? I don't want to get into individual cases, but an overall concept of this definition for the key 'sport'.


  


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Re: Definition of Sport

marc marc
Le 23.05.19 à 01:26, Warin a écrit :
> A) A physical competition played according to rules.
>
> B) As for A) but includes practising for the sport
>
> c) as for B) but includes non competitive physical activity.
>
> Thoughts?
i like C but without the "with rules" included via A :)
there is no rule defining how to swim as a hobby,
swim like a dog if you want, it's still swimming
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Re: Definition of Sport

Mateusz Konieczny-3
In reply to this post by Warin



23 May 2019, 01:26 by [hidden email]:
So there are various definitions. Which one should OSM use?
I would rather ask which one OSM is using now.

From mentioned following seems to fit quite well:

1. an activity pursued for exercise or pleasure, usually requiring some degree of physical prowess



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Re: Definition of Sport

Hufkratzer
In reply to this post by marc marc
On 23.05.2019 01:36, marc marc wrote:

> Le 23.05.19 à 01:26, Warin a écrit :
>> A) A physical competition played according to rules.
>>
>> B) As for A) but includes practising for the sport
>>
>> c) as for B) but includes non competitive physical activity.
>>
>> Thoughts?
> i like C but without the "with rules" included via A :)
> there is no rule defining how to swim as a hobby,
> swim like a dog if you want, it's still swimming

Then hiking, walking, bathing, eating, scratching your head ... any
physical activity would be a kind of sport.
This definition makes not much sense to me.
Compare https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Swimming_and_bathing

Is chess a sport? Probably. Does it require considerable physical activity?

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Re: Definition of Sport

Graeme Fitzpatrick
In reply to this post by marc marc


On Thu, 23 May 2019 at 09:37, marc marc <[hidden email]> wrote:

there is no rule defining how to swim as a hobby,
swim like a dog if you want, it's still swimming

It certainly is, but is it then a "sport", or just having fun / relaxing / cooling down? :-)
 
Thanks

Graeme

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Re: Definition of Sport

Markus-5
I personally like the definition by the European Sports Charter
(article 2, paragraph 1a):

   "Sport" means all forms of physical activity which, through casual
or organised participation, aim at expressing or improving physical
fitness and mental well-being, forming social relationships or
obtaining results in competition at all levels.

https://rm.coe.int/16804c9dbb

and that by the Cambridge Dictionary:

  - a game, competition, or activity needing physical effort and skill
that is played or done according to rules, for enjoyment and/or as a
job
  - (UK) all types of physical activity that people do to keep healthy
or for enjoyment

Regards

Markus

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Re: Definition of Sport

Kevin Kenny-3
On Fri, May 24, 2019 at 9:55 AM Markus <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I personally like the definition by the European Sports Charter
> (article 2, paragraph 1a):
>
>    "Sport" means all forms of physical activity which, through casual
> or organised participation, aim at expressing or improving physical
> fitness and mental well-being, forming social relationships or
> obtaining results in competition at all levels.
>
> https://rm.coe.int/16804c9dbb
>
> and that by the Cambridge Dictionary:
>
>   - a game, competition, or activity needing physical effort and skill
> that is played or done according to rules, for enjoyment and/or as a
> job
>   - (UK) all types of physical activity that people do to keep healthy
> or for enjoyment

Whatever Cambridge says, the second sense is certainly recognizable in
the US as well. It's controversial, and I know Americans will argue
passionately that "X really isn't a sport" because X doesn't have
organized leagues and rules. Nevertheless, it's current, particularly
in compounds such as 'sport fishing' (as opposed to fishing for the
table) and 'sport climbing' (a particular style, where the protection
is largely in the form of permanent anchors fixed to the rock, and in
opposition to 'traditional climbing' where the climber must place
removable protection during the climb).  Hunting is often described as
the 'sport of kings' despite not supporting organized competition. If
I'm wrong about organized competition in hunting, I don't think I want
to know! There _is_ organized competition in fishing, but 'sport
fishing' spans much more than those competitive events, and most sport
fishermen never participate in competitions.

Hmm, 'sport climbing' is (as of 2020) an Olympic sport with organized
competition. That's quite a new thing. Until very recently, the only
real competition was against oneself and the rock, although elite
climbers vied in a friendly manner for first ascent of a route, or for
'on-sight', 'flash' or 'red-point' ascents.

I'm fine with 'sport' _sensu lato,_ particularly since UK English is
supposed to be the internal language of OSM.

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Re: Definition of Sport

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Markus-5


Am Fr., 24. Mai 2019 um 15:55 Uhr schrieb Markus <[hidden email]>:
I personally like the definition by the European Sports Charter
(article 2, paragraph 1a):

   "Sport" means all forms of physical activity which, through casual
or organised participation, aim at expressing or improving physical
fitness and mental well-being, forming social relationships or
obtaining results in competition at all levels.


what about shooting or chess? Chess clearly isn't a physical activity, while for shooting there may be discussion.
The council of Europe also cites snooker along with chess as sports [1], probably darts would fit well in this list too ;-)

Are they all included because of "or obtaining results in competitions"? What about competitive binge drinking, it is a physical activity, may be organized and aiming at expressing physical fitness.
Seriously, we do not need to define what "sport" is, we will be voting with our feet.
All accepted values are here: https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/sport#values (plus what is missing)
certainly frequent tags should be preferred over those on the hundreds of pages with tags of only 1 occurence

Cheers,
Martin



"people may say that exclusion and discrimination are not really big issues because people tend to choose sports that they are naturally good at. For example, tall people may play basketball and less energetic types may play snooker or chess. "

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Re: Definition of Sport

Jmapb
On 5/24/2019 11:20 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

> Seriously, we do not need to define what "sport" is, we will be voting
> with our feet.
> All accepted values are here:
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/sport#values (plus what is missing)
> certainly frequent tags should be preferred over those on the hundreds
> of pages with tags of only 1 occurence

Amen to this. I didn't mean to open a can of taxonomic worms here; just
wanted to say that IMO sport=juggling is not inconsistent with OSM
tagging practice. (Though it's not surprising that it's rarely used,
because it doesn't usually align to physical features.)

J


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Re: Definition of Sport

Markus-5
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
On Fri, 24 May 2019 at 17:21, Martin Koppenhoefer
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> what about shooting or chess? Chess clearly isn't a physical activity, while for shooting there may be discussion.

I play chess myself, but wouldn't call it sports.

> The council of Europe also cites snooker along with chess as sports [1], probably darts would fit well in this list too ;-)
>
> Are they all included because of "or obtaining results in competitions"?

Yeah, they seem to have a broader conception of "physical activity" than i do.

What about competitive binge drinking, it is a physical activity, may
be organized and aiming at expressing physical fitness.

Not sure this improves physical fitness and mental well-being. ;)

> Seriously, we do not need to define what "sport" is, we will be voting with our feet.
> All accepted values are here: https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/sport#values (plus what is missing)
> certainly frequent tags should be preferred over those on the hundreds of pages with tags of only 1 occurence

I'm not so sure about sport=model_car_racing (38 uses), but i can live
with most of the other frequently used values. :) I agree that a
definition doesn't seem to be necessary.

By the way, thanks to TagInfo, i've just learned about a new sport:

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/sport=tambourin

I first thought it were a mistake. :)

Wishing you all a nice (and maybe sporty) weekend!

Regards

Markus

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Re: Definition of Sport

Mateusz Konieczny-3
In reply to this post by dieterdreist



24 May 2019, 17:20 by [hidden email]:


Am Fr., 24. Mai 2019 um 15:55 Uhr schrieb Markus <[hidden email]>:
I personally like the definition by the European Sports Charter
(article 2, paragraph 1a):

   "Sport" means all forms of physical activity which, through casual
or organised participation, aim at expressing or improving physical
fitness and mental well-being, forming social relationships or
obtaining results in competition at all levels.


what about shooting or chess? Chess clearly isn't a physical activity, while for shooting there may be discussion.
The council of Europe also cites snooker along with chess as sports [1], probably darts would fit well in this list too ;-)

Are they all included because of "or obtaining results in competitions"? What about competitive binge drinking, it is a physical activity, may be organized and aiming at expressing physical fitness.
Seriously, we do not need to define what "sport" is, we will be voting with our feet.
All accepted values are here: https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/sport#values (plus what is missing)
certainly frequent tags should be preferred over those on the hundreds of pages with tags of only 1 occurence


Cheers,
Martin



"people may say that exclusion and discrimination are not really big issues because people tend to choose sports that they are naturally good at. For example, tall people may play basketball and less energetic types may play snooker or chess. "
I made edit to OSM Wiki that intended to summarize what was covered in this discussion:


"There are many ways to define sport, some of them narrower than one de facto used in OSM.
For example any definition that limits "sport" to competitions or only psychical activity is not
fitting OSM use. This would exclude for example {{tag|sport|chess}} or {{tag|sport|climbing}}
not done as part of competitions. See [taginfo](https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/sport#values)
for examples of actually used values and list above for documented ones"
+ link to discussion on mailing list

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Re: Definition of Sport

Richard Welty-2
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
On 5/24/19 11:20 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

>
>
> Am Fr., 24. Mai 2019 um 15:55 Uhr schrieb Markus
> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>:
>
>     I personally like the definition by the European Sports Charter
>     (article 2, paragraph 1a):
>
>        "Sport" means all forms of physical activity which, through casual
>     or organised participation, aim at expressing or improving physical
>     fitness and mental well-being, forming social relationships or
>     obtaining results in competition at all levels.
>
>
>
> what about shooting or chess? Chess clearly isn't a physical activity,
> while for shooting there may be discussion.
> The council of Europe also cites snooker along with chess as sports [1],
> probably darts would fit well in this list too ;-)

i am an active participant in motor sports. does this count or not?

richard
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Re: Definition of Sport

Kevin Kenny-3
In reply to this post by Mateusz Konieczny-3
On Fri, May 24, 2019 at 12:10 PM Mateusz Konieczny
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> For example any definition that limits "sport" to competitions or only psychical activity is not
> fitting OSM use.

I think you meant, 'physical' activity, although it would be
interesting to see an event like competitive soothsaying!

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Re: Definition of Sport

Paul Allen
In reply to this post by Markus-5
On Fri, 24 May 2019 at 17:02, Markus <[hidden email]> wrote:
What about competitive binge drinking, it is a physical activity, may
be organized and aiming at expressing physical fitness.

It involves physical activity.  I'm not sure that it enhances fitness.   It may or may not be
competitive.

But if you're going to include that, there is an activity that is said to take place in some
British public schools where participants sit in a ring around a central biscuit.  The activity
is called "Soggy Biscuit."  It involves a brief spurt of physical activity and the winner comes
first.

I'm not sure that Soggy Biscuit or binge drinking are worthy of being mapped.  OTOH, if we're
going tp map juggling...

--
Paul


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Re: Definition of Sport

Jmapb
In reply to this post by Kevin Kenny-3
On 5/24/2019 12:44 PM, Kevin Kenny wrote:
> I think you meant, 'physical' activity, although it would be
> interesting to see an event like competitive soothsaying!

If you ask 100 different psychics to identify a Zener card, some will
almost certainly get it right! You'll probably have a champion after
three rounds. J

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Re: Definition of Sport

Mateusz Konieczny-3
In reply to this post by Kevin Kenny-3



24 May 2019, 18:44 by [hidden email]:
On Fri, May 24, 2019 at 12:10 PM Mateusz Konieczny
For example any definition that limits "sport" to competitions or only psychical activity is not
fitting OSM use.

I think you meant, 'physical' activity, although it would be
interesting to see an event like competitive soothsaying!



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Re: Definition of Sport

Graeme Fitzpatrick
In reply to this post by Mateusz Konieczny-3


On Sat, 25 May 2019 at 02:10, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:

24 May 2019, 17:20 by [hidden email]
what about shooting or chess? Chess clearly isn't a physical activity, while for shooting there may be discussion.
Shooting is quite definitely a sport, represented in the Olympic Games & governed by several International bodies.
 
I made edit to OSM Wiki that intended to summarize what was covered in this discussion:

Very good definition, but I'm not sure on one part of the wording
 
This would exclude for example {{tag|sport|chess}} or {{tag|sport|climbing}}
not done as part of competitions.

How about the World Chess Championships? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Chess_Championship_2018

Thanks

Graeme

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Re: Definition of Sport

Warin
In reply to this post by Mateusz Konieczny-3
I think it is way too soon to summarize a discussion that started less than 1 week ago.

If definition C is accepted then:

Bicycle riding is an accepted 'sport'. Riding my bicycle is then a 'sport', as I do it on roads and cycleways around me I can then tag these as sport=bicycle.
And that can be repeated for many things .. a place where casual games of football are played - no infrastructure .. can be tagged with sport.

What definition of 'sport' would you now have?

On 25/05/19 03:27, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:



24 May 2019, 18:44 by [hidden email]:
On Fri, May 24, 2019 at 12:10 PM Mateusz Konieczny
For example any definition that limits "sport" to competitions or only psychical activity is not
fitting OSM use.

I think you meant, 'physical' activity, although it would be
interesting to see an event like competitive soothsaying!



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Re: Definition of Sport

Paul Allen
On Fri, 24 May 2019 at 23:38, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:

What definition of 'sport' would you now have?

landuse=sport

Applied to the whole globe.

--
Paul


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Re: Definition of Sport

Silent Spike
In reply to this post by Warin
It seem like generally sport in OSM is just any physical activity. However, it's key to note that features are only tagged with `sport` when specifically designated for that activity.

For consideration, in the UK parkour is now officially recognised as a sport. If you're not aware, parkour can be practised pretty much anywhere. However, if you go to any local community and train with them, there will be certain spots training always takes place at because of the features there. That said, I wouldn't recommend OSM start tagging these spots because there's nothing to designate these spots as training spots other than the implicit value the physical features provide (which can already be captured by mapping those - the same way that mapping a field of grass generally implies any ball game could be played there). On the flip side, there is now something called a "parkour park" which is an area designed for training parkour with features specifically constructed to facilitate training - these I would say definitely should have a `sport` tag.

On Fri, May 24, 2019 at 11:38 PM Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:
I think it is way too soon to summarize a discussion that started less than 1 week ago.

If definition C is accepted then:

Bicycle riding is an accepted 'sport'. Riding my bicycle is then a 'sport', as I do it on roads and cycleways around me I can then tag these as sport=bicycle.
And that can be repeated for many things .. a place where casual games of football are played - no infrastructure .. can be tagged with sport.

What definition of 'sport' would you now have?

On 25/05/19 03:27, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:



24 May 2019, 18:44 by [hidden email]:
On Fri, May 24, 2019 at 12:10 PM Mateusz Konieczny
For example any definition that limits "sport" to competitions or only psychical activity is not
fitting OSM use.

I think you meant, 'physical' activity, although it would be
interesting to see an event like competitive soothsaying!


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