Deprecate healthcare=pharmacy and healthcare=hospital

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Deprecate healthcare=pharmacy and healthcare=hospital

Joseph Eisenberg
It came to my attention that healthcare=pharmacy is almost only used
in addition to the more common tag amenity=pharmacy:

99.7% of healthcare=pharmacy features are also tagged with
amenity=pharmacy:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/?key=healthcare&value=pharmacy#combinations

The situation is similar (though not as close to 100%) with:

healthcare=hospital + amenity=hospital -- 98.25%
(https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/healthcare=hospital#combinations)

healthcare=dentist + amenity=dentist --
98.3%(https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/healthcare=dentist#combinations)

healtcare=doctor + amenity=doctors -- >97%
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/healthcare=doctor#combinations

In all cases the amenity tag is several times more common, and most
features do not have the healthcare= tag added.

I think it would be reasonable to show healthcare=pharmacy,
healthcare=hospital, healthcare=dentist and healthcare=doctor as
discouraged and unnecessary in the wiki.

Instead, we should recommend using amenity=pharmacy, amenity=hospital,
amenity=dentist or amenity=doctors instead, since the de facto
practice is that you have to add those tags.

-Joseph Eisenberg

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Re: Deprecate healthcare=pharmacy and healthcare=hospital

marc marc
Le 28.01.20 à 13:45, Joseph Eisenberg a écrit :
> I think it would be reasonable to show healthcare=pharmacy,
> healthcare=hospital, healthcare=dentist and healthcare=doctor as
> discouraged and unnecessary in the wiki.

you take 2 tags out of their context, these 2 tags have their logic in
the hope of one day migrating health in their own namespace (as is done
with power=* for example) which has the merit of consistency even if we
know the inertia of the community to migrate.
Ideally, someone should take up the proposal on this subject again to
try to validate everything that can be validated. This would give more
weight and coherence.
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Re: Deprecate healthcare=pharmacy and healthcare=hospital

dieterdreist
There could be different kinds of pharmacy, e.g. with dispensing=yes and no. Is the dispensing tag also suggested for the healthcare pharmacies?

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: Deprecate healthcare=pharmacy and healthcare=hospital

Joseph Eisenberg
The pages are nearly identical.

Actually, the healthcare=pharmacy page was just made recently by copying the amenity=pharmacy page. Before it was only documented minimally at Key:healthcare 


Is the dispensing tag also suggested for the healthcare pharmacies?

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Re: Deprecate healthcare=pharmacy and healthcare=hospital

Jmapb
On 1/28/2020 9:23 AM, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
> The pages are nearly identical.
>
> Actually, the healthcare=pharmacy page was just made recently by
> copying the amenity=pharmacy page. Before it was only documented
> minimally at Key:healthcare
>
I believe the mappers who developed the healthcare=* scheme included
equivalents of the established heathcare-related amenity tags (doctors,
clinic, hospital, dentist, pharmacy) with the hope of slowly changing
features to the healthcare=* tags, with a long transitional phase where
some would be tagged with both amenity=* and healthcare=*. So it
wouldn't surprise me if the documentation is an exact copy.

At some point it appeared to me that iD was automatically adding the
equivalent healthcare=* tags to some amenities -- but it may have
actually been iD's "branding" bot that did that, matching amenities with
certain names.

IMO the healthcare tags deserve a chance and we shouldn't try to chip
away at them. But it would help to explain the situation on the relevant
wiki pages.

Jason


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Re: Deprecate healthcare=pharmacy and healthcare=hospital

Graeme Fitzpatrick



On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 at 02:35, Jmapb <[hidden email]> wrote:

At some point it appeared to me that iD was automatically adding the
equivalent healthcare=* tags to some amenities -- but it may have
actually been iD's "branding" bot that did that, matching amenities with
certain names.

iD also brings up the "suggestion" that existing amenity=clinic, pharmacy & (I think) dentist tags by themselves are "incomplete" & should be upgraded by adding healthcare=

  Thanks

Graeme

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Re: Deprecate healthcare=pharmacy and healthcare=hospital

Warin
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg
Healthcare is a 'new' key. Of course it is going to have less use than the older tags. 

    
It is not all about numbers, but also a logical system. 
The key amenity is not that logical, it includes many different types of things. 
Logically a road is an amenity yet OSM excludes them from the key amenity. 
The new key 'healthcare' make sense. 
It should be allowed to run without interference based on numbers that are a consequence of historic use where no other alternative was available. 
And that run should be free of any influence base on the numbers. 


On 28/1/20 11:45 pm, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
It came to my attention that healthcare=pharmacy is almost only used
in addition to the more common tag amenity=pharmacy:

99.7% of healthcare=pharmacy features are also tagged with
amenity=pharmacy:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/?key=healthcare&value=pharmacy#combinations

The situation is similar (though not as close to 100%) with:

healthcare=hospital + amenity=hospital -- 98.25%
(https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/healthcare=hospital#combinations)

healthcare=dentist + amenity=dentist --
98.3%(https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/healthcare=dentist#combinations)

healtcare=doctor + amenity=doctors -- >97%
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/healthcare=doctor#combinations

In all cases the amenity tag is several times more common, and most
features do not have the healthcare= tag added.

I think it would be reasonable to show healthcare=pharmacy,
healthcare=hospital, healthcare=dentist and healthcare=doctor as
discouraged and unnecessary in the wiki.

Instead, we should recommend using amenity=pharmacy, amenity=hospital,
amenity=dentist or amenity=doctors instead, since the de facto
practice is that you have to add those tags.

-Joseph Eisenberg

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Re: Deprecate healthcare=pharmacy and healthcare=hospital

Joseph Eisenberg
In reply to this post by Graeme Fitzpatrick
> iD also brings up the "suggestion" that existing amenity=clinic, pharmacy &
> (I think) dentist tags by themselves are "incomplete" & should be upgraded
> by adding healthcare=
> eg https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=21/-28.07641/153.42326

That's interesting. I wonder if there is a way to find what percentage
of the healthcare=pharmacy tags were added by iD or other editors in
this way.

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Re: Deprecate healthcare=pharmacy and healthcare=hospital

Lionel Giard
If i understood correctly the objective of the revamping of healthcare is to change the old way of tagging all these "amenity" (hospital, clinic, pharmacy, ...) and use the "healthcare" key instead. But at the moment, the preset is using both tags at the same time. So i'm asking the following question : "does tagging healthcare=pharmacy ALONE is enough (with any subtag if needed like dispensing=yes) ?". Theoretically, it should be correct if i'm understanding the healthcare scheme. Then we could propose to change the preset in the editor to promote a change of key (amenity=pharmacy -> health=pharmacy), instead of a simple "duplicating".

@Joseph I think that you are "Jeisenbe" on the wiki ?! :-) 
I see that you changed the healthcare wiki page saying that we should use "amenity" key instead for the 'duplicated values' (clinic, hospital, ....), but as said above, this seems counterproductive as the idea is to slowly deprecate the amenity tag, not to promote its usage ! :p Is there something that i am missing here ? ^_^

Le mer. 29 janv. 2020 à 13:26, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> a écrit :
> iD also brings up the "suggestion" that existing amenity=clinic, pharmacy &
> (I think) dentist tags by themselves are "incomplete" & should be upgraded
> by adding healthcare=
> eg https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=21/-28.07641/153.42326

That's interesting. I wonder if there is a way to find what percentage
of the healthcare=pharmacy tags were added by iD or other editors in
this way.

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Re: Deprecate healthcare=pharmacy and healthcare=hospital

Paul Allen
On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 at 12:51, Lionel Giard <[hidden email]> wrote:

Is there something that i am missing here ? ^_^

Rendering.  Dual-tagging by iD is to get the new tags in place whilst
retaining the old tags until standard carto (at least) decides to render the
new tags.  Given iD's relationship with Mapbox, I'm pretty sure that
Mapbox carto will eventually render the new tags (if it doesn't already).

--
Paul


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Re: Deprecate healthcare=pharmacy and healthcare=hospital

Joseph Eisenberg
> "The idea is to slowly deprecate the amenity tag"

I don't see why we should deprecate a key used millions of times for
important features like schools, hospitals, pharmacies, banks, gas
stations, and parking lots.

Changing this would require all database users, including all 4 map
styles on openstreetmap.org, to change what features are rendered, for
no clear benefit, and would also require retagging millions of
features.

The key "healthcare" was approved almost 10 years ago in 2010, and
many of the newly introduced tags have been somewhat popular, but
there has never been any momentum towards replacing the commonly used
tags for hospitals, pharmacies and clinics, because there is no
problem with the existing tags.

Rather promiting double-tagging with healthcare=pharmacy is a problem:
it is a needless duplication which provides no additional information.

- Joseph Eisenerg

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Re: Deprecate healthcare=pharmacy and healthcare=hospital

Paul Allen
On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 at 13:19, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

Changing this would require all database users, including all 4 map
styles on openstreetmap.org, to change what features are rendered, for
no clear benefit, and would also require retagging millions of
features.

Retagging need not happen immediately (or even at all) if carto dealt with
both alternative tags.  It would simply be a transition allowing a more
rational tagging scheme to come into effect.

Rather promiting double-tagging with healthcare=pharmacy is a problem:
it is a needless duplication which provides no additional information.

It was presumably done back in the days when people thought that OSM
indulged in joined-up thinking.  It is apparent now that OSM does not.  No
matter what the benefits of moving from amenity to healthcare, no matter
how many on this list think we should do it, carto insists that there can
never be aliases under any circumstances whatsoever.

--
Paul


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Re: Deprecate healthcare=pharmacy and healthcare=hospital

Joseph Eisenberg
In reply to this post by Paul Allen
I looked up the history again, and it's clear that the healthcare tags
which duplicated common amenity tags were never popular until they
were added to the iD presets in 2017:

https://taghistory.raifer.tech - compare "healthcare=pharmacy" and
"amenity=pharmacy" - the Healthcare proposal was approved in November
2010 but usage is not visible till 2017

Request to add more healthcare presets:
https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/3589
PR which added them, duplicating the amenity=pharmacy tag with
healthcare=pharmacy: https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/pull/4329

Note comments against deprecating amenity=* tags in this issue and PR:
"I don't agree with deprecating tags like amenity=hospital or
amenity=doctors, which are in widespread use. But we could probably
add the new healthcare tags alongside the old ones."
"Yes, I was just talking about addig this one, not deleting the others."
https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/3589#issuecomment-260979736

There was no intention to replace amenity=*, and mostly the PR added new tags.

Almost all of the usage has come since this change, but note that
amenity=pharmacy is still significantly more common than all uses of
the healthcare=* key, and it is increasing in spite of the iD editor
making an odd choice of validation rules.

- Joseph Eisenberg

On 1/29/20, Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 at 12:51, Lionel Giard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Is there something that i am missing here ? ^_^
>>
>
> Rendering.  Dual-tagging by iD is to get the new tags in place whilst
> retaining the old tags until standard carto (at least) decides to render
> the
> new tags.  Given iD's relationship with Mapbox, I'm pretty sure that
> Mapbox carto will eventually render the new tags (if it doesn't already).
>
> --
> Paul
>

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Re: Deprecate healthcare=pharmacy and healthcare=hospital

Paul Allen

On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 at 13:34, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
I looked up the history again, and it's clear that the healthcare tags
which duplicated common amenity tags were never popular until they
were added to the iD presets in 2017:

Like it or not, iD has more influence on tagging than this list or carto does.  If
iD decides a certain tag should be used in preference to an alternative, or that
dual-tagging should happen, then that's what happens.  Only in the case of
very strong objections will iD undo some change it decided to make without
consultation with anybody else.

As I said, OSM doesn't do joined-up thinking.  It would be nice if it did.

--
Paul



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Re: Deprecate healthcare=pharmacy and healthcare=hospital

Lionel Giard
That's clearer when we get all the history thank you Joseph ! :-) 
I agree with you that the added value of duplicating the key is very limited, so i understand your edit on the wiki. ^_^ 

Le mer. 29 janv. 2020 à 14:49, Paul Allen <[hidden email]> a écrit :

On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 at 13:34, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
I looked up the history again, and it's clear that the healthcare tags
which duplicated common amenity tags were never popular until they
were added to the iD presets in 2017:

Like it or not, iD has more influence on tagging than this list or carto does.  If
iD decides a certain tag should be used in preference to an alternative, or that
dual-tagging should happen, then that's what happens.  Only in the case of
very strong objections will iD undo some change it decided to make without
consultation with anybody else.

As I said, OSM doesn't do joined-up thinking.  It would be nice if it did.

--
Paul


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Re: Deprecate healthcare=pharmacy and healthcare=hospital

Jarek Piórkowski
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg
On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 at 07:25, Joseph Eisenberg
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > iD also brings up the "suggestion" that existing amenity=clinic, pharmacy &
> > (I think) dentist tags by themselves are "incomplete" & should be upgraded
> > by adding healthcare=
> > eg https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=21/-28.07641/153.42326
>
> That's interesting. I wonder if there is a way to find what percentage
> of the healthcare=pharmacy tags were added by iD or other editors in
> this way.

One could crunch edit history of some affected nodes and see how many
of the tags were added by which editor according to created_by tag on
the changeset.

While we're on the subject, "amenity pharmacy" would make a good
addition to the recently discussed
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Counterintuitive_key_names wiki
page.

I'm also curious about your thoughts regarding public_transport=*
double tagging, regarding tagging both wikipedia and wikidata, and
regarding brand keys (name=McDonald's + brand=McDonald's)

--Jarek

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Re: Deprecate healthcare=pharmacy and healthcare=hospital

Jmapb
In reply to this post by Lionel Giard
On 1/29/2020 8:50 AM, Lionel Giard wrote:

> That's clearer when we get all the history thank you Joseph ! :-)
> I agree with you that the added value of duplicating the key is very
> limited, so i understand your edit on the wiki. ^_^

IMO, unilaterally deprecating healthcare=clinic/dentist/doctor/hospital
on the healthcare=* page is a bit heavyhanded. These are part of a voted
and approved proposal.

Jason


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Re: Deprecate healthcare=pharmacy and healthcare=hospital

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Paul Allen


sent from a phone

> On 29. Jan 2020, at 14:49, Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Like it or not, iD has more influence on tagging than this list or carto does.  If
> iD decides a certain tag should be used in preference to an alternative, or that
> dual-tagging should happen, then that's what happens.


for things like pharmacies or hospitals this is only true as long as iD also adds the tags that carto supports along the “non-standard” tags, or their users will complain about things not showing up on “the map”. Carto and iD, they’re both very important for the actual tagging that people use.

Cheers Martin



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Re: Deprecate healthcare=pharmacy and healthcare=hospital

Paul Allen
On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 at 16:39, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:

for things like pharmacies or hospitals this is only true as long as iD also adds the tags that carto supports along the “non-standard” tags, or their users will complain about things not showing up on “the map”.

Or until carto gives in to iD (on the basis of numerical usage).  So it looks like
dual-tagging is going to become the norm any time iD comes up with an
alternative way of tagging something.

Carto and iD, they’re both very important for the actual tagging that people use.

Yep.  Anything decided here (on those rare occasions we manage to agree)
can be overridden by carto and/or iD.  It seems that, at best, we're filtering
out bad ideas before they get to carto/iD.  When I'm feeling particularly cynical,
I wonder if we're serving any useful purpose.

--
Paul


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Re: Deprecate healthcare=pharmacy and healthcare=hospital

Tagging mailing list
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg
Jan 29, 2020, 14:32 by [hidden email]:
history
I added history section to healthcare=hospital page intending to document and explain
origin, history and controversy around this tag

Feel free to improve and edit it (like other parts of the wiki).

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