Deprecating wikipedia Tag

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Deprecating wikipedia Tag

Thorsten Alge-2
Hallo List,

I started mapping wikidata tags some time ago. Those are great because
you can find wikipedia articles in any language you want (not only the
'primary' language) and and plenty of other information which might be
interesting for your project.

Since wikidata will be the center of all Wikimedia wikis it might be
better to link to wikidata items instead of wikipedia article. Thats why
I wonder what you think of deprecating the wikipedia tags (NOT DELETING
any of them) and focus on wikidata tags. Of course there are plenty of
projects which doesn't support wikidata yet but I'm sure if the tags are
there they will follow.

Regards

Thorsten

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Re: Deprecating wikipedia Tag

Andy Mabbett
On 25 May 2015 at 13:18, Thorsten Alge <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Since wikidata will be the center of all Wikimedia wikis it might be
> better to link to wikidata items instead of wikipedia article. Thats why
> I wonder what you think of deprecating the wikipedia tags (NOT DELETING
> any of them) and focus on wikidata tags

I agree that Wikidata tags are much better, and to be preferred.
However, it is easier for a novice (in either OSM or Wikipedia terms)
to add a Wikipedia tag; another editor, or a bot, can then convert it
to a Wikidata tag.

I do strongly urge fellow editors to add Wikdiata atgs whenver
appraoraite, bit for objects, and for things like etymologies,
architects etc.

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Re: Deprecating wikipedia Tag

Andreas Goss
In reply to this post by Thorsten Alge-2
I think for most people, especially the more casual ones using ID, it
will be easier to map wikipedia tags so I think we should keep it. Long
term it would probably be great to have a automated system that just
pulls the Wikidata ID when you put in a wikipedia, but I don't think
that will happen soon.


> Hallo List,
>
> I started mapping wikidata tags some time ago. Those are great because
> you can find wikipedia articles in any language you want (not only the
> 'primary' language) and and plenty of other information which might be
> interesting for your project.
>
> Since wikidata will be the center of all Wikimedia wikis it might be
> better to link to wikidata items instead of wikipedia article. Thats why
> I wonder what you think of deprecating the wikipedia tags (NOT DELETING
> any of them) and focus on wikidata tags. Of course there are plenty of
> projects which doesn't support wikidata yet but I'm sure if the tags are
> there they will follow.
>
> Regards
>
> Thorsten
>
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
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Re: Deprecating wikipedia Tag

Thorsten Alge-2
In reply to this post by Andy Mabbett
It must not be more difficult for a novice if the editor supports
fetching the wikidata item when a wikipedia-tag is present.

On 2015-05-25 14:40, Andy Mabbett wrote:

> On 25 May 2015 at 13:18, Thorsten Alge <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Since wikidata will be the center of all Wikimedia wikis it might be
>> better to link to wikidata items instead of wikipedia article. Thats why
>> I wonder what you think of deprecating the wikipedia tags (NOT DELETING
>> any of them) and focus on wikidata tags
> I agree that Wikidata tags are much better, and to be preferred.
> However, it is easier for a novice (in either OSM or Wikipedia terms)
> to add a Wikipedia tag; another editor, or a bot, can then convert it
> to a Wikidata tag.
>
> I do strongly urge fellow editors to add Wikdiata atgs whenver
> appraoraite, bit for objects, and for things like etymologies,
> architects etc.
>


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Re: Deprecating wikipedia Tag

André Pirard-2
In reply to this post by Andy Mabbett
On 25 May 2015 at 13:18, Thorsten Alge [hidden email] wrote:
Since wikidata will be the center of all Wikimedia wikis it might be better to link to wikidata items instead of wikipedia article. Thats why I wonder what you think of deprecating the wikipedia tags (NOT DELETING any of them) and focus on wikidata tags
I already replied that I wonder what's the idea behind that enforcement. Why wouldn't Wikidata be used "also" rather than "instead"?  Is it really a goal of OSM insisting to destroy Wikipedia?
That suggestion sounds to me as bizarre as wanting to replace English with French.

Everybody be happy,

André.



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Re: Deprecating wikipedia Tag

Thorsten Alge-2
Ok, No.

Having the wikidata-tag enables an application to select the
wikipedia-article in the language of the users choice or to easily load
additional information from wikidata like a cities crest for displaying.
The advantage would be that a user wouldn't get the German article
because its a German object but the article in his preferred language.

Saying I wanna destroy wikipedia is a bit harsch since I only asked for
opinions.

Thorsten

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Re: Deprecating wikipedia Tag

Marc Gemis
In reply to this post by André Pirard-2

On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 3:08 PM, André Pirard <[hidden email]> wrote:
I already replied that I wonder what's the idea behind that enforcement. Why wouldn't Wikidata be used "also" rather than "instead"?  Is it really a goal of OSM insisting to destroy Wikipedia?

So when people stop linking to Wikipedia, Wikipedia will be destroyed ? Or do I miss something here ?

regards

m

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Re: Deprecating wikipedia Tag

Philip Barnes
On Mon May 25 14:29:21 2015 GMT+0100, Marc Gemis wrote:

> On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 3:08 PM, André Pirard <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > I already replied that I wonder what's the idea behind that enforcement.
> > Why wouldn't Wikidata be used "also" rather than "instead"?  Is it really a
> > goal of OSM insisting to destroy Wikipedia?
> >
>
> So when people stop linking to Wikipedia, Wikipedia will be destroyed ? Or
> do I miss something here ?
>
I think a lot of us mappers  are going to need a lot of convincing,  wikipedia tags, in common with other osm tags, are human readable.
When reviewing changes I do not see a number that is meaningless without following the link, and even then the wikidata page looks pretty meaningless.

Phil (trigpoint )
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Re: Deprecating wikipedia Tag

Wolfgang Zenker
In reply to this post by Thorsten Alge-2
Hi,

* Thorsten Alge <[hidden email]> [150525 15:24]:
> Having the wikidata-tag enables an application to select the
> wikipedia-article in the language of the users choice or to easily load
> additional information from wikidata like a cities crest for displaying.
> The advantage would be that a user wouldn't get the German article
> because its a German object but the article in his preferred language.

well, due to Wikipedias interlanguage links, that's equally possible
with Wikipedia links. That's why our Wiki suggests to add only one
language version of the Wikipedia link and not multiple links.
As far as I can see Wikipedia articles usually link to the corresponding
Wikidata entry, so any application could get the same information
regardless of us providing a Wikipedia or a Wikidata link in the
OSM database.

Wolfgang

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Re: Deprecating wikipedia Tag

Thorsten Alge-2
In reply to this post by Philip Barnes
Well thats a good point. But in my opinion thats where the editor should
support the mapper and load the Description from Wikidata and maybe a
list of available languages for wikipedia articles.

> I think a lot of us mappers  are going to need a lot of convincing,  wikipedia tags, in common with other osm tags, are human readable.
> When reviewing changes I do not see a number that is meaningless without following the link, and even then the wikidata page looks pretty meaningless.
>
> Phil (trigpoint )
>

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Re: Deprecating wikipedia Tag

moltonel 3x Combo
In reply to this post by Philip Barnes
On 25/05/2015, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I think a lot of us mappers  are going to need a lot of convincing,
> wikipedia tags, in common with other osm tags, are human readable.
> When reviewing changes I do not see a number that is meaningless without
> following the link, and even then the wikidata page looks pretty
> meaningless.

Also, a lot of wikipedia articles do not (yet) have a wikidata
counterpart. As OSM is quite a time sink already, I am not going to
start creating wikidata (or even wikipedia) articles when none exist
for an OSM object I'm editing.

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Re: Deprecating wikipedia Tag

allegre.guillaume
In reply to this post by André Pirard-2
Le lun. 25 mai 2015 à 15:08 +0200, André Pirard a écrit :
> On 25 May 2015 at 13:18, Thorsten Alge <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Since wikidata will be the center of all Wikimedia wikis it might be
> > better to link to wikidata items instead of wikipedia article. Thats
> > why I wonder what you think of deprecating the wikipedia tags (NOT
> > DELETING any of them) and focus on wikidata tags
> I already replied that I wonder what's the idea behind that enforcement.
> Why wouldn't Wikidata be used "also" rather than "instead"?  Is it
> really a goal of OSM insisting to destroy Wikipedia?

Wikidata has one more advantage : sometimes, Wikipedia pages are renamed
(bad initial convention, or real-life renaming, or whatever), whereas
Wikidata items identifiers (Q...), are persistent for unique "concepts".

In WP, renaming is rare, but not very rare, so relying on wikidata would increase
the overall robustness of OSM/wiki* integration.



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Re: Deprecating wikipedia Tag

moltonel 3x Combo
On 25/05/2015, Guillaume Allegre <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I already replied that I wonder what's the idea behind that enforcement.
>> Why wouldn't Wikidata be used "also" rather than "instead"?  Is it
>> really a goal of OSM insisting to destroy Wikipedia?
>
> Wikidata has one more advantage : sometimes, Wikipedia pages are renamed
> (bad initial convention, or real-life renaming, or whatever), whereas
> Wikidata items identifiers (Q...), are persistent for unique "concepts".

I don't think that anybody claimed that wikidata tags were not
desirable, nor a superset of wikipedia tags. The objections are about
the idea that the wikipedia tag should be "deprecated" in favor of the
wikidata tag :

* wikipedia names are friendlyer to mappers, and generally more well-known
* wikidata objects don't necessarily exist for all wikipedia articles
we want to use
* For data consumers wanting to show the wikipedia article (by far the
most common usecase), using the wikipedia tag is much more
straightforward than using the wikidata tag (leaving the language and
renames issues to more meticulous data consumers).

So. I'm quite happy with the status quo, having both wikipedia and
wikidata tags in OSM. I'm sure there's a QA tool somewhere that can
point ou discrepancy between the two tags, if need be.

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Re: Deprecating wikipedia Tag

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by moltonel 3x Combo

2015-05-25 16:24 GMT+02:00 moltonel 3x Combo <[hidden email]>:

Also, a lot of wikipedia articles do not (yet) have a wikidata
counterpart.


I thought all wikipedia articles had been transformed into wikidata entities (that's what I was told from a guy from wikimedia).
The big difference that I see that could be there (in theory, the current situation wasn't like that when I had looked at it some months ago): wikidata is about entities. wikipedia articles are that: articles, they could deal with different (wikidata) entities in the same article. Actually they do, if you look at what in osm is place and admin, the articles often (but not always) refer to both of them, while for wikidata it does always make a difference (IIRR).

Like others have said before, for me the problem with wikidata tags at the moment is still, that we don't have particular editor support for them, so that you have to follow the link in order to see what the tag is about and spot possible errors or control what you have just entered yourself.

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: Deprecating wikipedia Tag

moltonel 3x Combo
On 25/05/2015, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2015-05-25 16:24 GMT+02:00 moltonel 3x Combo <[hidden email]>:
>> Also, a lot of wikipedia articles do not (yet) have a wikidata
>> counterpart.
>
> I thought all wikipedia articles had been transformed into wikidata
> entities (that's what I was told from a guy from wikimedia).
> The big difference that I see that could be there (in theory, the current
> situation wasn't like that when I had looked at it some months ago):
> wikidata is about entities. wikipedia articles are that: articles, they
> could deal with different (wikidata) entities in the same article. Actually
> they do, if you look at what in osm is place and admin, the articles often
> (but not always) refer to both of them, while for wikidata it does always
> make a difference (IIRR).

I admit not knowing wikidata that well, so the following might be misinformed :

There can't be  a mapping from every wikipedia article to a
corresponding wikidata id. Where in wikidata would you link all the
wikipedia "List of Foo" articles for example ? And if I'm creating a
new article for that restaurant I like, how does the corresponding
wikidata object get created and linked ?

Automatically creating wikipedia articles out of wikidata objects
shouldn't be too hard. The reverse seems unlikely. As far as I
understand, wikidata will always be playing catch-up to wikipedia, to
some extent.

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Re: Deprecating wikipedia Tag

Andreas Goss
> ikidata will always be playing catch-up to wikipedia, to
> some extent.

Can you just show me a single Wikipedia entry without a Wikidata object.

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Re: Deprecating wikipedia Tag

André Pirard-2
In reply to this post by Marc Gemis
On 2015-05-25 15:29, Marc Gemis wrote :

On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 3:08 PM, André Pirard <[hidden email]> wrote:
I already replied that I wonder what's the idea behind that enforcement. Why wouldn't Wikidata be used "also" rather than "instead"?  Is it really a goal of OSM insisting to destroy Wikipedia?

So when people stop linking to Wikipedia, Wikipedia will be destroyed ? Or do I miss something here ?

It's better understood  with the full quote, Marc ...

On 2015-05-25 15:08, André Pirard wrote :
On 25 May 2015 at 13:18, Thorsten Alge [hidden email] wrote:
Since wikidata will be the center of all Wikimedia wikis it might be better to link to wikidata items instead of wikipedia article. Thats why I wonder what you think of deprecating the wikipedia tags (NOT DELETING any of them) and focus on wikidata tags
I already replied that I wonder what's the idea behind that enforcement. Why wouldn't Wikidata be used "also" rather than "instead"?  Is it really a goal of OSM insisting to destroy Wikipedia?
That suggestion sounds to me as bizarre as wanting to replace English with French.

Everybody be happy,
The question is not "people stopping linking to Wikipedia", it is "commanding them to do so".
"deprecating" Wikipedia for OSM is causing the "destruction" of its OSM usage.
Should Wikipedia become less interesting, the deprecation will happen by itself.

André.



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Re: Deprecating wikipedia Tag

Andy Mabbett
In reply to this post by moltonel 3x Combo
On 25 May 2015 at 17:13, moltonel 3x Combo <[hidden email]> wrote:

> * wikipedia names are friendlyer to mappers, and generally more well-known

Wikidata labels should be more useful, contain less redundancy, and be
no less well-known. For example, "High Street" rather than "High
Street, Birmingham"

> * wikidata objects don't necessarily exist for all wikipedia articles
> we want to use

Apart from newly created Wikipedia articles, with a Wikidata item not
far behind, the reverse is true.

> * For data consumers wanting to show the wikipedia article (by far the
> most common usecase), using the wikipedia tag is much more
> straightforward than using the wikidata tag

Except when the Wikipedia article has been moved and the old name reused.

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Re: Deprecating wikipedia Tag

moltonel 3x Combo
In reply to this post by Andreas Goss
On 25/05/2015, Andreas Goss <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> ikidata will always be playing catch-up to wikipedia, to
>> some extent.
>
> Can you just show me a single Wikipedia entry without a Wikidata object.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_map_projections
Ok, maybe that one doesn't count because it's kind of metadata that
doesn't belong in wikidata.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Campagne_(restaurant)&action=history
https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q15207004&action=history
Hum, 2 months lag between data and pedia. Technically it proves my
point about the lag, but it isn't too bad.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Whiddy_Island_Disaster&action=history
https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q780440&action=history
3.5 years is worse, but maybe the import-from-pedia bot wasn't active
until recently ?


No time to look for more right now. Didn't find wikidata links on the
wikipedia articles, it would have made search faster. I admit the lag
is fairly short, and many pedia article that I didn't expect to find
in wikidata were in fact there.

Your confidence in wikidata indicates that you know it well, which
I've stated is not my case. If, instead of asking rhetoric questions,
you can shed light on some inner workings of wikidata that garanties
that all OSM-worthy objects with a wikipedia article will also have a
wikidata item (and vice-versa), I'd be happy to forget about that
imagined downside of wikidata compared to wikipedia.

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Re: Deprecating wikipedia Tag

sdoerr
On 25/05/2015 19:14, moltonel 3x Combo wrote:

> Can you just show me a single Wikipedia entry without a Wikidata object.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_map_projections
> Ok, maybe that one doesn't count because it's kind of metadata that
> doesn't belong in wikidata.
>

https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q4434286

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