Difference between barrier=embankment and man_made=embankment?

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Difference between barrier=embankment and man_made=embankment?

Joseph Eisenberg
The tag barrier=embankment was not part of the original barriers
proposal and does not have a wiki page, but it is used 4750 times:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/barrier=embankment

However, man_made=embankment is well-documented and used over 80,000
times: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made=embankment

There is also a tag "embankment=yes" that can be applied to linear
features like roads, similar to "cutting=yes".

And there is barrier=retaining_wall which is documented:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:barrier=retaining_wall

How is this tag being used? Are there any situations where
barrier=embankment is better or at least clearly different than
man_made=embankment?

(Note that this tag is currently rendered by the Openstreetmap-Carto
style like a retaining wall or fence, while man_made=embankment has a
specific rendering, but this could change)

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Re: Difference between barrier=embankment and man_made=embankment?

Joseph Eisenberg
Mateusz Konieczny has marked barrier=embankment as deprecated, and I'm
adding the  "deprecated features" template to the wiki page (which I
just made last month, for documentation). Most features were imported
before 2011.

In contrast, man_made=embankment is well-documented and established,
with increasing usage:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Embankment-man_made-vs-barrier.png
(Graph from http://taghistory.raifer.tech)

Please comment if you disagree with deprecating barrier=embankment or
have any concerns

On 4/12/19, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The tag barrier=embankment was not part of the original barriers
> proposal and does not have a wiki page, but it is used 4750 times:
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/barrier=embankment
>
> However, man_made=embankment is well-documented and used over 80,000
> times: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made=embankment
>
> There is also a tag "embankment=yes" that can be applied to linear
> features like roads, similar to "cutting=yes".
>
> And there is barrier=retaining_wall which is documented:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:barrier=retaining_wall
>
> How is this tag being used? Are there any situations where
> barrier=embankment is better or at least clearly different than
> man_made=embankment?
>
> (Note that this tag is currently rendered by the Openstreetmap-Carto
> style like a retaining wall or fence, while man_made=embankment has a
> specific rendering, but this could change)
>

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Re: Difference between barrier=embankment and man_made=embankment?

Joseph Eisenberg
On github, Christoph mentioned that some of these features tagged
barrier=embankment may be types of earthen fortifications, as found in
Europe, eg earthen ramparts, earthworks or earth banks.

> "Double/symmetric embankment not connected to some other primary feature like a road... something we in German call a 'Wall' "

It could be translated "rampart" - "a large wall built round a town,
castle, etc. to protect it"?
Or "earthwork": "a raised area of earth made, especially in the past,
for defence against enemy attack"

This is in use 200 times as barrier=earthworks
(https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/barrier=earthworks)

or historic=earthworks - 196 times
(https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/historic=earthworks)

or perhaps barrier=earth_bank - 184 times
(https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/barrier=earth_bank)

There are a few uses of barrier=rampart and military=rampart.

Perhaps someone could check on the German language mailing list or forum?

On 5/28/19, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Mateusz Konieczny has marked barrier=embankment as deprecated, and I'm
> adding the  "deprecated features" template to the wiki page (which I
> just made last month, for documentation). Most features were imported
> before 2011.
>
> In contrast, man_made=embankment is well-documented and established,
> with increasing usage:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Embankment-man_made-vs-barrier.png
> (Graph from http://taghistory.raifer.tech)
>
> Please comment if you disagree with deprecating barrier=embankment or
> have any concerns
>
> On 4/12/19, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> The tag barrier=embankment was not part of the original barriers
>> proposal and does not have a wiki page, but it is used 4750 times:
>> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/barrier=embankment
>>
>> However, man_made=embankment is well-documented and used over 80,000
>> times: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made=embankment
>>
>> There is also a tag "embankment=yes" that can be applied to linear
>> features like roads, similar to "cutting=yes".
>>
>> And there is barrier=retaining_wall which is documented:
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:barrier=retaining_wall
>>
>> How is this tag being used? Are there any situations where
>> barrier=embankment is better or at least clearly different than
>> man_made=embankment?
>>
>> (Note that this tag is currently rendered by the Openstreetmap-Carto
>> style like a retaining wall or fence, while man_made=embankment has a
>> specific rendering, but this could change)
>>
>

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Re: Difference between barrier=embankment and man_made=embankment?

dieterdreist
Am Mi., 29. Mai 2019 um 02:20 Uhr schrieb Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]>:
> "Double/symmetric embankment not connected to some other primary feature like a road... something we in German call a 'Wall' "

It could be translated "rampart" - "a large wall built round a town,
castle, etc. to protect it"?
Or "earthwork": "a raised area of earth made, especially in the past,
for defence against enemy attack"



+1


This is in use 200 times as barrier=earthworks
(https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/barrier=earthworks)

or historic=earthworks - 196 times
(https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/historic=earthworks)

or perhaps barrier=earth_bank - 184 times
(https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/barrier=earth_bank)

There are a few uses of barrier=rampart and military=rampart.


For ramparts most usage I found was historic=rampart (70)
which seems a suitable specific tag. There are some polygons but most are linear ways.
I am going to start documenting this.

Cheers,
Martin


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Re: Difference between barrier=embankment and man_made=embankment?

Paul Allen
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg
On Wed, 29 May 2019 at 01:20, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
On github, Christoph mentioned that some of these features tagged
barrier=embankment may be types of earthen fortifications, as found in
Europe, eg earthen ramparts, earthworks or earth banks.

> "Double/symmetric embankment not connected to some other primary feature like a road... something we in German call a 'Wall' "

It could be translated "rampart" - "a large wall built round a town,
castle, etc. to protect it"?
Or "earthwork": "a raised area of earth made, especially in the past,
for defence against enemy attack"

How the terms are used may vary from country to country.  OSM tags do not necessarily
correspond closely to technical and/or common usage.  Meanings may differ for
features like embankments depending upon context (railway embankment, fortification,
levee, etc.).

From what I've seen of scheduled monuments in Wales, the general usage (other
than for a few scheduled railway embankments) is that an embankment is a barrier
Earthworks are more complex features which may include embankments.  Sometimes
an embankment is described as a "linear earthwork."

Example:

A motte and bailey castle comprises a large conical or pyramidal mound of soil or stone (the motte) surrounded by, or adjacent to, one or more embanked enclosures (the bailey). Both may be surrounded by wet or dry ditches and could be further strengthened with palisades, revetments, and/or a tower on top of the motte.

Both the motte and the bailey are types of earthworks.

OT for this list: the rendering of an embankment implies that the drop on one side is
significantly greater than the other.  This is often not the case.  It may be true where
there is a ditch (barrier, not drainage) associated with the embankment.  Perhaps
embankments should be rendered with triangles on both sides of the line because
if the ground on one side is significantly higher than the other it's often a bank or a
slope or maybe even a cliff.  IMaybe we need a way of specifying equal or unequal
drops.

For more examples of usage by UK heritage agencies, tell your favourite search engine to
restrict itself to looking at the site ancientmonuments.uk (with google you use
site:ancientmonuments.uk as a search term) and look for embankment, motte, bailey,
earthworks, etc.

Yes, all fortification-type embankments are ramparts, but not all ramparts are embankments.
Most people (if they use the term at all) associate "ramparts" with a stone wall.  In my trawls
through the ancientmonuments site I don't recall rampart being used to describe an
embankment (but I've only looked at a tiny fraction of the monuments and my memory isn't
great these days).  Oh, and they're all walls, whatever the building material, but in English
we wouldn't use "wall" without qualification, such as "castle wall" or "curtain wall" and we
wouldn't generally use "wall" for an embankment.

--
Paul


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Re: Difference between barrier=embankment and man_made=embankment?

Christoph Hormann-2
On Wednesday 29 May 2019, Paul Allen wrote:
>
> How the terms are used may vary from country to country.  OSM tags do
> not necessarily
> correspond closely to technical and/or common usage.  Meanings may
> differ for
> features like embankments depending upon context (railway embankment,
> fortification,
> levee, etc.).

This might not have been clear from my statement but this is not based
on a particular local situation in Germany but comes from looking at
data worldwide.

man_made=embankment is almost exclusively used for one-sided artificial
slopes - prominently supported by OSM-Carto rendering it this way.

barrier=embankment is in the relatively small volume of use mostly used
for symmetric structures with slopes on both sides.

And current tagging documentation does not provide a clear suggestion
how to tag such - if with embankment=yes as a standalone tag or with
man_made=embankment + embankment=both or embankment=two_sided.

--
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: Difference between barrier=embankment and man_made=embankment?

Paul Allen
On Wed, 29 May 2019 at 13:42, Christoph Hormann <[hidden email]> wrote:

man_made=embankment is almost exclusively used for one-sided artificial
slopes - prominently supported by OSM-Carto rendering it this way.

That surprises me.  Not that either man_made or barrier was used for
one-sided artificial slopes but that a one-sided slope is considered an
embankment.

It's not even clear to me that something counts as an embankment if it is not
higher than the ground on both sides.  Not necessarily the same height difference
on both sides, but a difference nonetheless.  Otherwise it's just a slope.

barrier=embankment is in the relatively small volume of use mostly used
for symmetric structures with slopes on both sides.

That may be more an artifact of which tags are used by editor presets for
embankments.  I believe iD changed from barrier to man_made fairly
recently.

The thing is that railway embankments are man-made and their purpose is not
to act as barriers.  But fortifications, whilst also being man-made, are specifically
intended to be barriers.  I'm not entirely convinced we should be deprecating either
tag, but man_made is more generic so if we must restrict ourselves to one tag
then that is the one.  I think we throw away some detail if we restrict ourselves to
man_made, but we would be deceptive if we tagged railway embankments as
barriers.
 
And current tagging documentation does not provide a clear suggestion
how to tag such - if with embankment=yes as a standalone tag or with
man_made=embankment + embankment=both or embankment=two_sided.

For me this is somewhat similar to the difference between a wall and a retaining wall.
Retaining walls, by their function, have a significant height difference between the two
sides.  Economics may mean the height difference on one side is so small as to be
negligible.  Ordinary walls have no such difference (or perhaps no more than a centimetre or
two).  To my mind, embankments are two-sided just as non-retaining walls are.

Consider a "one-sided embankment."  What would things look like if the embankment had
not been constructed?  The drop from high to low shifts position a metre or two.  A different
angle of slope, maybe. Without knowledge that there was an artificial construct present,
you'd have no way of distinguishing the two situations just from simple observation.  A
retaining wall is distinguishable because of man-made materials, but a "one-sided
embankment" is not.

--
Paul


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Re: Difference between barrier=embankment and man_made=embankment?

Joseph Eisenberg
> "Otherwise it's just a slope."

According to https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/embankment
in British English the term embankment is defined as "an artificial
slope made of earth and/or stones".

On 5/29/19, Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, 29 May 2019 at 13:42, Christoph Hormann <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>
>> man_made=embankment is almost exclusively used for one-sided artificial
>> slopes - prominently supported by OSM-Carto rendering it this way.
>>
>
> That surprises me.  Not that either man_made or barrier was used for
> one-sided artificial slopes but that a one-sided slope is considered an
> embankment.
>
> It's not even clear to me that something counts as an embankment if it is
> not
> higher than the ground on both sides.  Not necessarily the same height
> difference
> on both sides, but a difference nonetheless.  Otherwise it's just a slope.
>
> barrier=embankment is in the relatively small volume of use mostly used
>> for symmetric structures with slopes on both sides.
>>
>
> That may be more an artifact of which tags are used by editor presets for
> embankments.  I believe iD changed from barrier to man_made fairly
> recently.
>
> The thing is that railway embankments are man-made and their purpose is not
> to act as barriers.  But fortifications, whilst also being man-made, are
> specifically
> intended to be barriers.  I'm not entirely convinced we should be
> deprecating either
> tag, but man_made is more generic so if we must restrict ourselves to one
> tag
> then that is the one.  I think we throw away some detail if we restrict
> ourselves to
> man_made, but we would be deceptive if we tagged railway embankments as
> barriers.
>
>
>> And current tagging documentation does not provide a clear suggestion
>> how to tag such - if with embankment=yes as a standalone tag or with
>> man_made=embankment + embankment=both or embankment=two_sided.
>>
>
> For me this is somewhat similar to the difference between a wall and a
> retaining wall.
> Retaining walls, by their function, have a significant height difference
> between the two
> sides.  Economics may mean the height difference on one side is so small as
> to be
> negligible.  Ordinary walls have no such difference (or perhaps no more
> than a centimetre or
> two).  To my mind, embankments are two-sided just as non-retaining walls
> are.
>
> Consider a "one-sided embankment."  What would things look like if the
> embankment had
> not been constructed?  The drop from high to low shifts position a metre or
> two.  A different
> angle of slope, maybe. Without knowledge that there was an artificial
> construct present,
> you'd have no way of distinguishing the two situations just from simple
> observation.  A
> retaining wall is distinguishable because of man-made materials, but a
> "one-sided
> embankment" is not.
>
> --
> Paul
>

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Re: Difference between barrier=embankment and man_made=embankment?

Paul Allen
On Wed, 29 May 2019 at 14:56, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
> "Otherwise it's just a slope."

According to https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/embankment
in British English the term embankment is defined as "an artificial
slope made of earth and/or stones".

Beware of dictionaries.  :)  Wiktionary defines it as a long mound of earth, stone or similar
material, usually built for purposes such as to hold back or store water, for protection from
weather or enemies, or to support a road or railway.

Seriously, though, in OSM terms, does a "one-sided embankment" make sense?  Sure, it's
the difference between a natural and an artificial slope, but how would you know from simple
observation?  There's a slope near me that has been stabilized with concrete blocks, so it's
visibly man-made.  But the same thing can be done by piling up earth at the appropriate
angle - technically an embankment but visibly just a slope.

--
Paul


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