Dispute on tagging place=* in Turkmenistan

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Dispute on tagging place=* in Turkmenistan

Allan Mustard
Looking for some guidance here from the tagging experts.  Please see the dispute section on the Turkmenistan wiki discussion page https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Turkmenistan#Disputed:_Suggested_Place_Tags_for_Administrative_Subdivisions

The nub is that I advocate classifying Turkmenistan's municipalities based on their official status according to the host government (see the wiki article Districts in Turkmenistan).  Another mapper, Aka_Bob, disagrees and insists that there are OSM guidelines based on population (I note that the OSM place=village article says a village can have up to 10,000 population, which in the United States is laughable--that would be a town or a city).  Aka_Bob edited that section of the wiki article unilaterally without first consulting local mappers.  I have no intention of entering into an edit war, but rather want to take this out to the community for discussion.

I'd like to hear what people think.  Opening classification of Turkmen muncipalities to free interpretation rather than a standard official classification strikes me as a recipe for chaos, particularly since official population data have not been published for over a decade (the 2012 and 2017 censuses were made secret) but maybe that's just me.  What do you think?

Best regards and Happy New Year to all!

apm-wa

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Re: Dispute on tagging place=* in Turkmenistan

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

> On 2. Jan 2019, at 00:44, Allan Mustard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> What do you think?


I have never understood why people wanted to add place tags to administrative territorial entities like countries, states or municipalities. Aren’t these thoroughly defined with boundary=administrative and the related admin_level?


Cheers, Martin
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Re: Dispute on tagging place=* in Turkmenistan

Kevin Kenny-3
In reply to this post by Allan Mustard
On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 6:46 PM Allan Mustard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Looking for some guidance here from the tagging experts.  Please see the dispute section on the Turkmenistan wiki discussion page https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Turkmenistan#Disputed:_Suggested_Place_Tags_for_Administrative_Subdivisions
>
> The nub is that I advocate classifying Turkmenistan's municipalities based on their official status according to the host government (see the wiki article Districts in Turkmenistan).  Another mapper, Aka_Bob, disagrees and insists that there are OSM guidelines based on population (I note that the OSM place=village article says a village can have up to 10,000 population, which in the United States is laughable--that would be a town or a city).  Aka_Bob edited that section of the wiki article unilaterally without first consulting local mappers.  I have no intention of entering into an edit war, but rather want to take this out to the community for discussion.

I once laboured under the same misconception, and mismapped some
villages in New York before more experienced mappers showed me the
error of my ways. The consensus appears to be that Aka_Bob is right.
With that said, there will always be some overlap among the
categories, and it is possible that population may not be the only
criterion in a given locality, but legal status is usually a rather
poor indication.

In the US, at least, we use admin_level to track the legal status of
villages, towns, et cetera, and instead follow population guidelines.
Anything else for New York State, for instance, would lead to absurd
results. We have some legal 'hamlets' (e.g., Brentwood, Levittown)
that are actually small cities with population around 60,000 - and a
chartered 'city' with a population of about 3,000. Our 'towns' range
in population from 38 (Red House) to about 760,000 (Hempstead), and
our 'villages' from 11 (Dering Harbor) to 54,000 (Hempstead Village).
(Yes, our largest 'hamlet' is larger than our largest 'village'!)

Since in practice, what place=* is used for is to rate 'relative
importance' (and so guide at what zoom level a name will appear, and
how big a font will be used for it), the population guideline works
better in practice than an attempt to follow the legal definition.

There's been fairly extensive discussion, here and in talk-us, that
led up to https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_admin_level
for the US admin levels.  I'd suspect that a similar approach would
work well for the administrative boundaries in Turkmenistan.

I understand that the UK is an exception, because the status of
'town', 'village', 'city' and so on relates to whether a given
settlement has a church, a market, and similar facilities, and
therefore does reflect somewhat the status of the settlement relative
to its hinterland. (That scheme would surely not work for the US,
where for instance, we have many country churches that are not part of
larger settlements; it may be that the rectory is the only house
within a couple of km in any direction.)

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Re: Dispute on tagging place=* in Turkmenistan

marc marc
In reply to this post by Allan Mustard
Le 02.01.19 à 00:44, Allan Mustard a écrit :
> Looking for some guidance here from the tagging experts.  Please see the
> dispute section on the Turkmenistan wiki discussion page
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Turkmenistan#Disputed:_Suggested_Place_Tags_for_Administrative_Subdivisions

it seems useful to me that each country/local community:
- keeps as much as possible the same general principle (different value
to describe that there is a difference between a hamlet of a few houses
and the largest city with some intermediate value between the 2)
- adapts the criteria between these categories according to the local
context (if no population measures exist but an official classification
gives an idea, it seems to me a good idea to use it)

but for administrative subdivisions, place=* look like wrong,
boundary=administrative + admin_level is the good schema
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Re: Dispute on tagging place=* in Turkmenistan

Kevin Kenny-3
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 7:11 PM Martin Koppenhoefer
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> I have never understood why people wanted to add place tags to administrative territorial entities like countries, states or municipalities. Aren’t these thoroughly defined with boundary=administrative and the related admin_level?

Around here, it's because there are a fair number of places that don't
have any form of self-government, but are still identifiable villages.
Their boundaries are generally indefinite, but those that live in them
would give the names of those places when asked for their home town.
In New York State, these get mapped (admin_level=8) if their
boundaries are definite (generally, fixed by defining legislation of
the township of which they are a part), and as place=* nodes
otherwise. They range in size from settlements with a handful of
houses to small cities with populations up to about 60,000.

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Re: Dispute on tagging place=* in Turkmenistan

Joseph Eisenberg
In reply to this post by Allan Mustard
Those municipalities are relations of type=boundary and boundary=administrative with an appropriate admin_level, no?

These are different from the OSM settlements, which are mapped as a node at the center of a city, town, village, hamlet or isolated dwelling or farm.

While the pages suggest certain population ranges for each of these settled places, in the past they were defined by available services in England. A city had a cathedral or university, a town had a (full-time) marketplace, a village had a church, and a hamlet was too small for its own church but had more than one family. That’s the historic basis for the OSM system, though in modern times the standards are less certain.

I suspect this sort of classification can work even in places that do not have good population figures available, like where I map in Indonesia. For example:

a farm or isolated dwelling has only 1 or 2 households, a hamlet has a few families but no services (maybe there is a tiny kiosk or a very small place of worship)

A village has some services but only for the local community; people do not travel to a village to go shopping, except from the closest farms or hamlets. Probably there is a primary school, certainly there is some sort of place of worship.

A town is a significant local destination. People from the surrounding hamlets and villages will go to the nearest town to buy clothing, tools, specialty foods and other necessities. There may be some cultural and entertainment options, and usually some level of government services. Towns always have secondary education (high schools) in the countries that I have visited.

A city has all this as well as major healthcare and educational institutions, and is often as administrative center for businesses, organizations (NGOs, religious) and local government. People travel to cities from the whole surrounding region, including from towns, for business, entertainment, cultural facilities etc. generally a city should have just about all of the services that a middle-class person would use (though the rich may need to go to larger cities for some specialty and luxury services - OSM doesn’t have a special class for large cities or global cities however)

By population a hamlet has less than 1000 residents (often less than 100), and a city has over 50,000 (usually over 100,000), but the population cut-offs vary by region.

A very isolated settlement may still qualify as a town with a relatively small population if it has the only high school, government office, supermarket and airport on a large island, for example - in this case the whole population of the island comes to the town for services even if they do not live there, so I would be comfortable tagging a settlement of 4000 people as a town on an island with 200,000 people but no other settlements over 1000 people in size.

This is how I tag places in eastern Indonesia, where many villages and towns are very isolated. Perhaps this is similar in your country?

But in a densely populated region, like Java (where there are 120,000 million people on one island), even a settlement with 20,000 people might just be a conglomeration of farming villages that hardly qualifies as a town, and a town could grow to 200,000 residents and still lack any characteristics of a city.
On Wed, Jan 2, 2019 at 8:46 AM Allan Mustard <[hidden email]> wrote:
Looking for some guidance here from the tagging experts.  Please see the dispute section on the Turkmenistan wiki discussion page https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Turkmenistan#Disputed:_Suggested_Place_Tags_for_Administrative_Subdivisions

The nub is that I advocate classifying Turkmenistan's municipalities based on their official status according to the host government (see the wiki article Districts in Turkmenistan).  Another mapper, Aka_Bob, disagrees and insists that there are OSM guidelines based on population (I note that the OSM place=village article says a village can have up to 10,000 population, which in the United States is laughable--that would be a town or a city).  Aka_Bob edited that section of the wiki article unilaterally without first consulting local mappers.  I have no intention of entering into an edit war, but rather want to take this out to the community for discussion.

I'd like to hear what people think.  Opening classification of Turkmen muncipalities to free interpretation rather than a standard official classification strikes me as a recipe for chaos, particularly since official population data have not been published for over a decade (the 2012 and 2017 censuses were made secret) but maybe that's just me.  What do you think?

Best regards and Happy New Year to all!

apm-wa
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Re: Dispute on tagging place=* in Turkmenistan

Allan Mustard
Very interesting.  In the Turkmen case, the classifications are defined in law and involve both size (though population data are secret) and type of governance structure (for full details please see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Turkmenistan#Administrative_Structure).   

Is it fair to call a settlement a "neighbourhood" when it has a governance structure (a village council with a chair who serves effectively as the municipal manager/mayor)?  In my experience a "neighbourhood" lacks any sort of governance structure aside from (sometimes) Neighborhood Watch.

apm-wa

On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 7:32 PM Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
Those municipalities are relations of type=boundary and boundary=administrative with an appropriate admin_level, no?

These are different from the OSM settlements, which are mapped as a node at the center of a city, town, village, hamlet or isolated dwelling or farm.

While the pages suggest certain population ranges for each of these settled places, in the past they were defined by available services in England. A city had a cathedral or university, a town had a (full-time) marketplace, a village had a church, and a hamlet was too small for its own church but had more than one family. That’s the historic basis for the OSM system, though in modern times the standards are less certain.

I suspect this sort of classification can work even in places that do not have good population figures available, like where I map in Indonesia. For example:

a farm or isolated dwelling has only 1 or 2 households, a hamlet has a few families but no services (maybe there is a tiny kiosk or a very small place of worship)

A village has some services but only for the local community; people do not travel to a village to go shopping, except from the closest farms or hamlets. Probably there is a primary school, certainly there is some sort of place of worship.

A town is a significant local destination. People from the surrounding hamlets and villages will go to the nearest town to buy clothing, tools, specialty foods and other necessities. There may be some cultural and entertainment options, and usually some level of government services. Towns always have secondary education (high schools) in the countries that I have visited.

A city has all this as well as major healthcare and educational institutions, and is often as administrative center for businesses, organizations (NGOs, religious) and local government. People travel to cities from the whole surrounding region, including from towns, for business, entertainment, cultural facilities etc. generally a city should have just about all of the services that a middle-class person would use (though the rich may need to go to larger cities for some specialty and luxury services - OSM doesn’t have a special class for large cities or global cities however)

By population a hamlet has less than 1000 residents (often less than 100), and a city has over 50,000 (usually over 100,000), but the population cut-offs vary by region.

A very isolated settlement may still qualify as a town with a relatively small population if it has the only high school, government office, supermarket and airport on a large island, for example - in this case the whole population of the island comes to the town for services even if they do not live there, so I would be comfortable tagging a settlement of 4000 people as a town on an island with 200,000 people but no other settlements over 1000 people in size.

This is how I tag places in eastern Indonesia, where many villages and towns are very isolated. Perhaps this is similar in your country?

But in a densely populated region, like Java (where there are 120,000 million people on one island), even a settlement with 20,000 people might just be a conglomeration of farming villages that hardly qualifies as a town, and a town could grow to 200,000 residents and still lack any characteristics of a city.
On Wed, Jan 2, 2019 at 8:46 AM Allan Mustard <[hidden email]> wrote:
Looking for some guidance here from the tagging experts.  Please see the dispute section on the Turkmenistan wiki discussion page https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Turkmenistan#Disputed:_Suggested_Place_Tags_for_Administrative_Subdivisions

The nub is that I advocate classifying Turkmenistan's municipalities based on their official status according to the host government (see the wiki article Districts in Turkmenistan).  Another mapper, Aka_Bob, disagrees and insists that there are OSM guidelines based on population (I note that the OSM place=village article says a village can have up to 10,000 population, which in the United States is laughable--that would be a town or a city).  Aka_Bob edited that section of the wiki article unilaterally without first consulting local mappers.  I have no intention of entering into an edit war, but rather want to take this out to the community for discussion.

I'd like to hear what people think.  Opening classification of Turkmen muncipalities to free interpretation rather than a standard official classification strikes me as a recipe for chaos, particularly since official population data have not been published for over a decade (the 2012 and 2017 censuses were made secret) but maybe that's just me.  What do you think?

Best regards and Happy New Year to all!

apm-wa
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Re: Dispute on tagging place=* in Turkmenistan

Joseph Eisenberg
In OSM a neighborhood is a named part of a larger settlement, usually a town or suburb or city, though in Indonesia some “desa” (villages) consist of a dozen named “kampung” (neighborhoods).

Suburbs are also considered parts of larger towns or cities. So a city can be divided into a dozen suburbs, each of which is divided into a half-dozen neighborhoods
On Wed, Jan 2, 2019 at 11:19 AM Allan Mustard <[hidden email]> wrote:
Very interesting.  In the Turkmen case, the classifications are defined in law and involve both size (though population data are secret) and type of governance structure (for full details please see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Turkmenistan#Administrative_Structure).   

Is it fair to call a settlement a "neighbourhood" when it has a governance structure (a village council with a chair who serves effectively as the municipal manager/mayor)?  In my experience a "neighbourhood" lacks any sort of governance structure aside from (sometimes) Neighborhood Watch.

apm-wa

On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 7:32 PM Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
Those municipalities are relations of type=boundary and boundary=administrative with an appropriate admin_level, no?

These are different from the OSM settlements, which are mapped as a node at the center of a city, town, village, hamlet or isolated dwelling or farm.

While the pages suggest certain population ranges for each of these settled places, in the past they were defined by available services in England. A city had a cathedral or university, a town had a (full-time) marketplace, a village had a church, and a hamlet was too small for its own church but had more than one family. That’s the historic basis for the OSM system, though in modern times the standards are less certain.

I suspect this sort of classification can work even in places that do not have good population figures available, like where I map in Indonesia. For example:

a farm or isolated dwelling has only 1 or 2 households, a hamlet has a few families but no services (maybe there is a tiny kiosk or a very small place of worship)

A village has some services but only for the local community; people do not travel to a village to go shopping, except from the closest farms or hamlets. Probably there is a primary school, certainly there is some sort of place of worship.

A town is a significant local destination. People from the surrounding hamlets and villages will go to the nearest town to buy clothing, tools, specialty foods and other necessities. There may be some cultural and entertainment options, and usually some level of government services. Towns always have secondary education (high schools) in the countries that I have visited.

A city has all this as well as major healthcare and educational institutions, and is often as administrative center for businesses, organizations (NGOs, religious) and local government. People travel to cities from the whole surrounding region, including from towns, for business, entertainment, cultural facilities etc. generally a city should have just about all of the services that a middle-class person would use (though the rich may need to go to larger cities for some specialty and luxury services - OSM doesn’t have a special class for large cities or global cities however)

By population a hamlet has less than 1000 residents (often less than 100), and a city has over 50,000 (usually over 100,000), but the population cut-offs vary by region.

A very isolated settlement may still qualify as a town with a relatively small population if it has the only high school, government office, supermarket and airport on a large island, for example - in this case the whole population of the island comes to the town for services even if they do not live there, so I would be comfortable tagging a settlement of 4000 people as a town on an island with 200,000 people but no other settlements over 1000 people in size.

This is how I tag places in eastern Indonesia, where many villages and towns are very isolated. Perhaps this is similar in your country?

But in a densely populated region, like Java (where there are 120,000 million people on one island), even a settlement with 20,000 people might just be a conglomeration of farming villages that hardly qualifies as a town, and a town could grow to 200,000 residents and still lack any characteristics of a city.
On Wed, Jan 2, 2019 at 8:46 AM Allan Mustard <[hidden email]> wrote:
Looking for some guidance here from the tagging experts.  Please see the dispute section on the Turkmenistan wiki discussion page https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Turkmenistan#Disputed:_Suggested_Place_Tags_for_Administrative_Subdivisions

The nub is that I advocate classifying Turkmenistan's municipalities based on their official status according to the host government (see the wiki article Districts in Turkmenistan).  Another mapper, Aka_Bob, disagrees and insists that there are OSM guidelines based on population (I note that the OSM place=village article says a village can have up to 10,000 population, which in the United States is laughable--that would be a town or a city).  Aka_Bob edited that section of the wiki article unilaterally without first consulting local mappers.  I have no intention of entering into an edit war, but rather want to take this out to the community for discussion.

I'd like to hear what people think.  Opening classification of Turkmen muncipalities to free interpretation rather than a standard official classification strikes me as a recipe for chaos, particularly since official population data have not been published for over a decade (the 2012 and 2017 censuses were made secret) but maybe that's just me.  What do you think?

Best regards and Happy New Year to all!

apm-wa
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Re: Dispute on tagging place=* in Turkmenistan

Allan Mustard
By that definition, then, calling an autonomous village with its own council a "neighbourhood" would be erroneous, correct?

On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 10:24 PM Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
In OSM a neighborhood is a named part of a larger settlement, usually a town or suburb or city, though in Indonesia some “desa” (villages) consist of a dozen named “kampung” (neighborhoods).

Suburbs are also considered parts of larger towns or cities. So a city can be divided into a dozen suburbs, each of which is divided into a half-dozen neighborhoods
On Wed, Jan 2, 2019 at 11:19 AM Allan Mustard <[hidden email]> wrote:
Very interesting.  In the Turkmen case, the classifications are defined in law and involve both size (though population data are secret) and type of governance structure (for full details please see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Turkmenistan#Administrative_Structure).   

Is it fair to call a settlement a "neighbourhood" when it has a governance structure (a village council with a chair who serves effectively as the municipal manager/mayor)?  In my experience a "neighbourhood" lacks any sort of governance structure aside from (sometimes) Neighborhood Watch.

apm-wa

On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 7:32 PM Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
Those municipalities are relations of type=boundary and boundary=administrative with an appropriate admin_level, no?

These are different from the OSM settlements, which are mapped as a node at the center of a city, town, village, hamlet or isolated dwelling or farm.

While the pages suggest certain population ranges for each of these settled places, in the past they were defined by available services in England. A city had a cathedral or university, a town had a (full-time) marketplace, a village had a church, and a hamlet was too small for its own church but had more than one family. That’s the historic basis for the OSM system, though in modern times the standards are less certain.

I suspect this sort of classification can work even in places that do not have good population figures available, like where I map in Indonesia. For example:

a farm or isolated dwelling has only 1 or 2 households, a hamlet has a few families but no services (maybe there is a tiny kiosk or a very small place of worship)

A village has some services but only for the local community; people do not travel to a village to go shopping, except from the closest farms or hamlets. Probably there is a primary school, certainly there is some sort of place of worship.

A town is a significant local destination. People from the surrounding hamlets and villages will go to the nearest town to buy clothing, tools, specialty foods and other necessities. There may be some cultural and entertainment options, and usually some level of government services. Towns always have secondary education (high schools) in the countries that I have visited.

A city has all this as well as major healthcare and educational institutions, and is often as administrative center for businesses, organizations (NGOs, religious) and local government. People travel to cities from the whole surrounding region, including from towns, for business, entertainment, cultural facilities etc. generally a city should have just about all of the services that a middle-class person would use (though the rich may need to go to larger cities for some specialty and luxury services - OSM doesn’t have a special class for large cities or global cities however)

By population a hamlet has less than 1000 residents (often less than 100), and a city has over 50,000 (usually over 100,000), but the population cut-offs vary by region.

A very isolated settlement may still qualify as a town with a relatively small population if it has the only high school, government office, supermarket and airport on a large island, for example - in this case the whole population of the island comes to the town for services even if they do not live there, so I would be comfortable tagging a settlement of 4000 people as a town on an island with 200,000 people but no other settlements over 1000 people in size.

This is how I tag places in eastern Indonesia, where many villages and towns are very isolated. Perhaps this is similar in your country?

But in a densely populated region, like Java (where there are 120,000 million people on one island), even a settlement with 20,000 people might just be a conglomeration of farming villages that hardly qualifies as a town, and a town could grow to 200,000 residents and still lack any characteristics of a city.
On Wed, Jan 2, 2019 at 8:46 AM Allan Mustard <[hidden email]> wrote:
Looking for some guidance here from the tagging experts.  Please see the dispute section on the Turkmenistan wiki discussion page https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Turkmenistan#Disputed:_Suggested_Place_Tags_for_Administrative_Subdivisions

The nub is that I advocate classifying Turkmenistan's municipalities based on their official status according to the host government (see the wiki article Districts in Turkmenistan).  Another mapper, Aka_Bob, disagrees and insists that there are OSM guidelines based on population (I note that the OSM place=village article says a village can have up to 10,000 population, which in the United States is laughable--that would be a town or a city).  Aka_Bob edited that section of the wiki article unilaterally without first consulting local mappers.  I have no intention of entering into an edit war, but rather want to take this out to the community for discussion.

I'd like to hear what people think.  Opening classification of Turkmen muncipalities to free interpretation rather than a standard official classification strikes me as a recipe for chaos, particularly since official population data have not been published for over a decade (the 2012 and 2017 censuses were made secret) but maybe that's just me.  What do you think?

Best regards and Happy New Year to all!

apm-wa
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Re: Dispute on tagging place=* in Turkmenistan

Graeme Fitzpatrick
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg


On Wed, 2 Jan 2019 at 10:32, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

But in a densely populated region, like Java (where there are 120,000 million people on one island), 

Wow, I knew java was crowded ... :-) 

Thanks

Graeme

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Re: Dispute on tagging place=* in Turkmenistan

Joseph Eisenberg
That’s the American million, you remove 3 zeros from the British version, right? Like how a trillion is a billion? Something like that. :-)
https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/million_billion_trillion.png
(See hover-over text)
On Wed, Jan 2, 2019 at 12:48 PM Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Wed, 2 Jan 2019 at 10:32, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

But in a densely populated region, like Java (where there are 120,000 million people on one island), 

Wow, I knew java was crowded ... :-) 

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: Dispute on tagging place=* in Turkmenistan

Allan Mustard
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
Not according to the wiki.  It seems nodes are the accepted way of identifying a settlement, municipal or otherwise.  

On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 7:11 PM Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:


sent from a phone

> On 2. Jan 2019, at 00:44, Allan Mustard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> What do you think?


I have never understood why people wanted to add place tags to administrative territorial entities like countries, states or municipalities. Aren’t these thoroughly defined with boundary=administrative and the related admin_level?


Cheers, Martin
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Re: Dispute on tagging place=* in Turkmenistan

Joseph Eisenberg
In reply to this post by Allan Mustard
It depends on if it is part of a continuous urban settlement or not.

I use “suburb” and “neighborhood” for places that are considered to be part of a larger place. Usually these are mainly urban places, where most people are involved in services and industry rather than agriculture or forestry or fishing, and a significant percentage of worker travel to the larger town center for work.

Sometimes a suburb has it’s own government and town council, as is common in the USA. In other cases (Eg Shanghai), a municipality includes area of farmland and villages that are clearly separate settlements. So I don’t think that the government status can be the distinguishing characteristic.

Perhaps you have a particular example in mind?

On Wed, Jan 2, 2019 at 12:30 PM Allan Mustard <[hidden email]> wrote:
By that definition, then, calling an autonomous village with its own council a "neighbourhood" would be erroneous, correct?

On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 10:24 PM Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
In OSM a neighborhood is a named part of a larger settlement, usually a town or suburb or city, though in Indonesia some “desa” (villages) consist of a dozen named “kampung” (neighborhoods).

Suburbs are also considered parts of larger towns or cities. So a city can be divided into a dozen suburbs, each of which is divided into a half-dozen neighborhoods
On Wed, Jan 2, 2019 at 11:19 AM Allan Mustard <[hidden email]> wrote:
Very interesting.  In the Turkmen case, the classifications are defined in law and involve both size (though population data are secret) and type of governance structure (for full details please see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Turkmenistan#Administrative_Structure).   

Is it fair to call a settlement a "neighbourhood" when it has a governance structure (a village council with a chair who serves effectively as the municipal manager/mayor)?  In my experience a "neighbourhood" lacks any sort of governance structure aside from (sometimes) Neighborhood Watch.

apm-wa

On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 7:32 PM Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
Those municipalities are relations of type=boundary and boundary=administrative with an appropriate admin_level, no?

These are different from the OSM settlements, which are mapped as a node at the center of a city, town, village, hamlet or isolated dwelling or farm.

While the pages suggest certain population ranges for each of these settled places, in the past they were defined by available services in England. A city had a cathedral or university, a town had a (full-time) marketplace, a village had a church, and a hamlet was too small for its own church but had more than one family. That’s the historic basis for the OSM system, though in modern times the standards are less certain.

I suspect this sort of classification can work even in places that do not have good population figures available, like where I map in Indonesia. For example:

a farm or isolated dwelling has only 1 or 2 households, a hamlet has a few families but no services (maybe there is a tiny kiosk or a very small place of worship)

A village has some services but only for the local community; people do not travel to a village to go shopping, except from the closest farms or hamlets. Probably there is a primary school, certainly there is some sort of place of worship.

A town is a significant local destination. People from the surrounding hamlets and villages will go to the nearest town to buy clothing, tools, specialty foods and other necessities. There may be some cultural and entertainment options, and usually some level of government services. Towns always have secondary education (high schools) in the countries that I have visited.

A city has all this as well as major healthcare and educational institutions, and is often as administrative center for businesses, organizations (NGOs, religious) and local government. People travel to cities from the whole surrounding region, including from towns, for business, entertainment, cultural facilities etc. generally a city should have just about all of the services that a middle-class person would use (though the rich may need to go to larger cities for some specialty and luxury services - OSM doesn’t have a special class for large cities or global cities however)

By population a hamlet has less than 1000 residents (often less than 100), and a city has over 50,000 (usually over 100,000), but the population cut-offs vary by region.

A very isolated settlement may still qualify as a town with a relatively small population if it has the only high school, government office, supermarket and airport on a large island, for example - in this case the whole population of the island comes to the town for services even if they do not live there, so I would be comfortable tagging a settlement of 4000 people as a town on an island with 200,000 people but no other settlements over 1000 people in size.

This is how I tag places in eastern Indonesia, where many villages and towns are very isolated. Perhaps this is similar in your country?

But in a densely populated region, like Java (where there are 120,000 million people on one island), even a settlement with 20,000 people might just be a conglomeration of farming villages that hardly qualifies as a town, and a town could grow to 200,000 residents and still lack any characteristics of a city.
On Wed, Jan 2, 2019 at 8:46 AM Allan Mustard <[hidden email]> wrote:
Looking for some guidance here from the tagging experts.  Please see the dispute section on the Turkmenistan wiki discussion page https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Turkmenistan#Disputed:_Suggested_Place_Tags_for_Administrative_Subdivisions

The nub is that I advocate classifying Turkmenistan's municipalities based on their official status according to the host government (see the wiki article Districts in Turkmenistan).  Another mapper, Aka_Bob, disagrees and insists that there are OSM guidelines based on population (I note that the OSM place=village article says a village can have up to 10,000 population, which in the United States is laughable--that would be a town or a city).  Aka_Bob edited that section of the wiki article unilaterally without first consulting local mappers.  I have no intention of entering into an edit war, but rather want to take this out to the community for discussion.

I'd like to hear what people think.  Opening classification of Turkmen muncipalities to free interpretation rather than a standard official classification strikes me as a recipe for chaos, particularly since official population data have not been published for over a decade (the 2012 and 2017 censuses were made secret) but maybe that's just me.  What do you think?

Best regards and Happy New Year to all!

apm-wa
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Re: Dispute on tagging place=* in Turkmenistan

Allan Mustard

On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 11:17 PM Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
It depends on if it is part of a continuous urban settlement or not.

I use “suburb” and “neighborhood” for places that are considered to be part of a larger place. Usually these are mainly urban places, where most people are involved in services and industry rather than agriculture or forestry or fishing, and a significant percentage of worker travel to the larger town center for work.

Sometimes a suburb has it’s own government and town council, as is common in the USA. In other cases (Eg Shanghai), a municipality includes area of farmland and villages that are clearly separate settlements. So I don’t think that the government status can be the distinguishing characteristic.

Perhaps you have a particular example in mind?

On Wed, Jan 2, 2019 at 12:30 PM Allan Mustard <[hidden email]> wrote:
By that definition, then, calling an autonomous village with its own council a "neighbourhood" would be erroneous, correct?

On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 10:24 PM Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
In OSM a neighborhood is a named part of a larger settlement, usually a town or suburb or city, though in Indonesia some “desa” (villages) consist of a dozen named “kampung” (neighborhoods).

Suburbs are also considered parts of larger towns or cities. So a city can be divided into a dozen suburbs, each of which is divided into a half-dozen neighborhoods
On Wed, Jan 2, 2019 at 11:19 AM Allan Mustard <[hidden email]> wrote:
Very interesting.  In the Turkmen case, the classifications are defined in law and involve both size (though population data are secret) and type of governance structure (for full details please see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Turkmenistan#Administrative_Structure).   

Is it fair to call a settlement a "neighbourhood" when it has a governance structure (a village council with a chair who serves effectively as the municipal manager/mayor)?  In my experience a "neighbourhood" lacks any sort of governance structure aside from (sometimes) Neighborhood Watch.

apm-wa

On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 7:32 PM Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
Those municipalities are relations of type=boundary and boundary=administrative with an appropriate admin_level, no?

These are different from the OSM settlements, which are mapped as a node at the center of a city, town, village, hamlet or isolated dwelling or farm.

While the pages suggest certain population ranges for each of these settled places, in the past they were defined by available services in England. A city had a cathedral or university, a town had a (full-time) marketplace, a village had a church, and a hamlet was too small for its own church but had more than one family. That’s the historic basis for the OSM system, though in modern times the standards are less certain.

I suspect this sort of classification can work even in places that do not have good population figures available, like where I map in Indonesia. For example:

a farm or isolated dwelling has only 1 or 2 households, a hamlet has a few families but no services (maybe there is a tiny kiosk or a very small place of worship)

A village has some services but only for the local community; people do not travel to a village to go shopping, except from the closest farms or hamlets. Probably there is a primary school, certainly there is some sort of place of worship.

A town is a significant local destination. People from the surrounding hamlets and villages will go to the nearest town to buy clothing, tools, specialty foods and other necessities. There may be some cultural and entertainment options, and usually some level of government services. Towns always have secondary education (high schools) in the countries that I have visited.

A city has all this as well as major healthcare and educational institutions, and is often as administrative center for businesses, organizations (NGOs, religious) and local government. People travel to cities from the whole surrounding region, including from towns, for business, entertainment, cultural facilities etc. generally a city should have just about all of the services that a middle-class person would use (though the rich may need to go to larger cities for some specialty and luxury services - OSM doesn’t have a special class for large cities or global cities however)

By population a hamlet has less than 1000 residents (often less than 100), and a city has over 50,000 (usually over 100,000), but the population cut-offs vary by region.

A very isolated settlement may still qualify as a town with a relatively small population if it has the only high school, government office, supermarket and airport on a large island, for example - in this case the whole population of the island comes to the town for services even if they do not live there, so I would be comfortable tagging a settlement of 4000 people as a town on an island with 200,000 people but no other settlements over 1000 people in size.

This is how I tag places in eastern Indonesia, where many villages and towns are very isolated. Perhaps this is similar in your country?

But in a densely populated region, like Java (where there are 120,000 million people on one island), even a settlement with 20,000 people might just be a conglomeration of farming villages that hardly qualifies as a town, and a town could grow to 200,000 residents and still lack any characteristics of a city.
On Wed, Jan 2, 2019 at 8:46 AM Allan Mustard <[hidden email]> wrote:
Looking for some guidance here from the tagging experts.  Please see the dispute section on the Turkmenistan wiki discussion page https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Turkmenistan#Disputed:_Suggested_Place_Tags_for_Administrative_Subdivisions

The nub is that I advocate classifying Turkmenistan's municipalities based on their official status according to the host government (see the wiki article Districts in Turkmenistan).  Another mapper, Aka_Bob, disagrees and insists that there are OSM guidelines based on population (I note that the OSM place=village article says a village can have up to 10,000 population, which in the United States is laughable--that would be a town or a city).  Aka_Bob edited that section of the wiki article unilaterally without first consulting local mappers.  I have no intention of entering into an edit war, but rather want to take this out to the community for discussion.

I'd like to hear what people think.  Opening classification of Turkmen muncipalities to free interpretation rather than a standard official classification strikes me as a recipe for chaos, particularly since official population data have not been published for over a decade (the 2012 and 2017 censuses were made secret) but maybe that's just me.  What do you think?

Best regards and Happy New Year to all!

apm-wa
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Re: Dispute on tagging place=* in Turkmenistan

Dolly Andriatsiferana
I suspect this sort of classification can work even in places that do not have good population figures available, like where I map in Indonesia. For example:
a farm or isolated dwelling has only 1 or 2 households, a hamlet has a few families but no services (maybe there is a tiny kiosk or a very small place of worship)
A village has some services but only for the local community; people do not travel to a village to go shopping, except from the closest farms or hamlets. Probably there is a primary school, certainly there is some sort of place of worship.
A town is a significant local destination. People from the surrounding hamlets and villages will go to the nearest town to buy clothing, tools, specialty foods and other necessities. There may be some cultural and entertainment options, and usually some level of government services. Towns always have secondary education (high schools) in the countries that I have visited.
A city has all this as well as major healthcare and educational institutions, and is often as administrative center for businesses, organizations (NGOs, religious) and local government. People travel to cities from the whole surrounding region, including from towns, for business, entertainment, cultural facilities etc. generally a city should have just about all of the services that a middle-class person would use (though the rich may need to go to larger cities for some specialty and luxury services - OSM doesn’t have a special class for large cities or global cities however)
By population a hamlet has less than 1000 residents (often less than 100), and a city has over 50,000 (usually over 100,000), but the population cut-offs vary by region. 
A very isolated settlement may still qualify as a town with a relatively small population if it has the only high school, government office, supermarket and airport on a large island, for example - in this case the whole population of the island comes to the town for services even if they do not live there, so I would be comfortable tagging a settlement of 4000 people as a town on an island with 200,000 people but no other settlements over 1000 people in size.

+1

I totally agree with Joseph Eisenberg on this. When classifying settlements (place=*), I think that their 'relative importance' should be valued more than administrative status or population, although there are often overlaps (administrative unit centers are often where services exist, such as hospitals, schools, markets, offices etc.). That's according to the part of the world that I know, there might be exceptions for some countries.

All the best.

Le mer. 2 janv. 2019 à 07:45, Allan Mustard <[hidden email]> a écrit :

On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 11:17 PM Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
It depends on if it is part of a continuous urban settlement or not.

I use “suburb” and “neighborhood” for places that are considered to be part of a larger place. Usually these are mainly urban places, where most people are involved in services and industry rather than agriculture or forestry or fishing, and a significant percentage of worker travel to the larger town center for work.

Sometimes a suburb has it’s own government and town council, as is common in the USA. In other cases (Eg Shanghai), a municipality includes area of farmland and villages that are clearly separate settlements. So I don’t think that the government status can be the distinguishing characteristic.

Perhaps you have a particular example in mind?

On Wed, Jan 2, 2019 at 12:30 PM Allan Mustard <[hidden email]> wrote:
By that definition, then, calling an autonomous village with its own council a "neighbourhood" would be erroneous, correct?

On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 10:24 PM Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
In OSM a neighborhood is a named part of a larger settlement, usually a town or suburb or city, though in Indonesia some “desa” (villages) consist of a dozen named “kampung” (neighborhoods).

Suburbs are also considered parts of larger towns or cities. So a city can be divided into a dozen suburbs, each of which is divided into a half-dozen neighborhoods
On Wed, Jan 2, 2019 at 11:19 AM Allan Mustard <[hidden email]> wrote:
Very interesting.  In the Turkmen case, the classifications are defined in law and involve both size (though population data are secret) and type of governance structure (for full details please see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Turkmenistan#Administrative_Structure).   

Is it fair to call a settlement a "neighbourhood" when it has a governance structure (a village council with a chair who serves effectively as the municipal manager/mayor)?  In my experience a "neighbourhood" lacks any sort of governance structure aside from (sometimes) Neighborhood Watch.

apm-wa

On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 7:32 PM Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
Those municipalities are relations of type=boundary and boundary=administrative with an appropriate admin_level, no?

These are different from the OSM settlements, which are mapped as a node at the center of a city, town, village, hamlet or isolated dwelling or farm.

While the pages suggest certain population ranges for each of these settled places, in the past they were defined by available services in England. A city had a cathedral or university, a town had a (full-time) marketplace, a village had a church, and a hamlet was too small for its own church but had more than one family. That’s the historic basis for the OSM system, though in modern times the standards are less certain.

I suspect this sort of classification can work even in places that do not have good population figures available, like where I map in Indonesia. For example:

a farm or isolated dwelling has only 1 or 2 households, a hamlet has a few families but no services (maybe there is a tiny kiosk or a very small place of worship)

A village has some services but only for the local community; people do not travel to a village to go shopping, except from the closest farms or hamlets. Probably there is a primary school, certainly there is some sort of place of worship.

A town is a significant local destination. People from the surrounding hamlets and villages will go to the nearest town to buy clothing, tools, specialty foods and other necessities. There may be some cultural and entertainment options, and usually some level of government services. Towns always have secondary education (high schools) in the countries that I have visited.

A city has all this as well as major healthcare and educational institutions, and is often as administrative center for businesses, organizations (NGOs, religious) and local government. People travel to cities from the whole surrounding region, including from towns, for business, entertainment, cultural facilities etc. generally a city should have just about all of the services that a middle-class person would use (though the rich may need to go to larger cities for some specialty and luxury services - OSM doesn’t have a special class for large cities or global cities however)

By population a hamlet has less than 1000 residents (often less than 100), and a city has over 50,000 (usually over 100,000), but the population cut-offs vary by region.

A very isolated settlement may still qualify as a town with a relatively small population if it has the only high school, government office, supermarket and airport on a large island, for example - in this case the whole population of the island comes to the town for services even if they do not live there, so I would be comfortable tagging a settlement of 4000 people as a town on an island with 200,000 people but no other settlements over 1000 people in size.

This is how I tag places in eastern Indonesia, where many villages and towns are very isolated. Perhaps this is similar in your country?

But in a densely populated region, like Java (where there are 120,000 million people on one island), even a settlement with 20,000 people might just be a conglomeration of farming villages that hardly qualifies as a town, and a town could grow to 200,000 residents and still lack any characteristics of a city.
On Wed, Jan 2, 2019 at 8:46 AM Allan Mustard <[hidden email]> wrote:
Looking for some guidance here from the tagging experts.  Please see the dispute section on the Turkmenistan wiki discussion page https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Turkmenistan#Disputed:_Suggested_Place_Tags_for_Administrative_Subdivisions

The nub is that I advocate classifying Turkmenistan's municipalities based on their official status according to the host government (see the wiki article Districts in Turkmenistan).  Another mapper, Aka_Bob, disagrees and insists that there are OSM guidelines based on population (I note that the OSM place=village article says a village can have up to 10,000 population, which in the United States is laughable--that would be a town or a city).  Aka_Bob edited that section of the wiki article unilaterally without first consulting local mappers.  I have no intention of entering into an edit war, but rather want to take this out to the community for discussion.

I'd like to hear what people think.  Opening classification of Turkmen muncipalities to free interpretation rather than a standard official classification strikes me as a recipe for chaos, particularly since official population data have not been published for over a decade (the 2012 and 2017 censuses were made secret) but maybe that's just me.  What do you think?

Best regards and Happy New Year to all!

apm-wa
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Re: Dispute on tagging place=* in Turkmenistan

Paul Allen
In reply to this post by Allan Mustard
On Wed, 2 Jan 2019 at 02:19, Allan Mustard <[hidden email]> wrote:
Very interesting.  In the Turkmen case, the classifications are defined in law and involve both size (though population data are secret) and type of governance structure (for full details please see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Turkmenistan#Administrative_Structure).   

Is it fair to call a settlement a "neighbourhood" when it has a governance structure (a village council with a chair who serves effectively as the municipal manager/mayor)?  In my experience a "neighbourhood" lacks any sort of governance structure aside from (sometimes) Neighborhood Watch.

I have the feeling that hamlet/village/town/city in OSM are (now) rather arbitrary labels which don't
necessarily indicate size or governmental structure or available facilities but "importance" for some
vague, country-specific value of "importance."  The values are essentially a way of specifying which
population centres appear at which zoom levels.

As with many tags in OSM, with hindsight we'd have done it differently, but it's almost impossible
to change things now.  Which is a shame, because with vector tiling we might have the possibility
for users to select which characteristic they wish to determine what is displayed at a particular
zoom level: population size, admin level or available facilities as denoted by hamlet/village/etc.
Because hamlet/village are not always used as described in the wiki, and when they are used
in such a way they essentially echo population size, we'd need yet another tag for that to happen,
with hamlet/village eventually becoming ignored.  Good luck with that.

I have no idea how to resolve your problem.  I suspect it would require a diplomat to get all
sides to agree, and where are we going to find one of those? :)

--
Paul


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Re: Dispute on tagging place=* in Turkmenistan

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Kevin Kenny-3


sent from a phone

> On 2. Jan 2019, at 01:11, Kevin Kenny <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> but legal status is usually a rather
> poor indication.


in Italy we use the status to distinguish between town and village, and I believe in Germany and other places in Europe it is also done like this.

Cheers, Martin
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Re: Dispute on tagging place=* in Turkmenistan

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Kevin Kenny-3


sent from a phone

> On 2. Jan 2019, at 01:11, Kevin Kenny <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I understand that the UK is an exception, because the status of
> 'town', 'village', 'city' and so on relates to whether a given
> settlement has a church, a market, and similar facilities, and
> therefore does reflect somewhat the status of the settlement relative
> to its hinterland. (That scheme would surely not work for the US,
> where for instance, we have many country churches that are not part of
> larger settlements; it may be that the rectory is the only house
> within a couple of km in any direction.)


this is not a contradiction, it eventually shows there simply isn’t (or wasn’t) a town/village around. “church” isn’t the only criterion, it works quite well for the christian European context.


Cheers, Martin
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Re: Dispute on tagging place=* in Turkmenistan

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Kevin Kenny-3


sent from a phone

On 2. Jan 2019, at 01:18, Kevin Kenny <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> I have never understood why people wanted to add place tags to administrative territorial entities like countries, states or municipalities. Aren’t these thoroughly defined with boundary=administrative and the related admin_level?
>
> Around here, it's because there are a fair number of places that don't
> have any form of self-government, but are still identifiable villages.


this is a different thing, place for settlements is perfectly fine, I agree they can be orthogonal to administrative subdivisions.

Countries without an administrative border are harder, depending on our interpretation of the meaning of place=country it might not be completely impossible any more, as long as we had the on the ground rule of defacto control it wasn’t though (i.e. until very recently).

Cheers, Martin
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Re: Dispute on tagging place=* in Turkmenistan

SimonPoole
In reply to this post by Allan Mustard

At the danger of throwing a spanner in the works (or better sabots :-)): there is an ongoing discussion on place mapping. Mainly taking place here https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/2816

Essentially  the relationship between administrative divisions and places/settlements is complicated and while we have working tagging for administrative entities (and for them I would normally suggest following whatever the "official" hierarchy and designation is), our place modelling is a bit of a mess, which among other issue has led to administrative boundaries being used for places.

In any case, on your original question, I would tend towards a national consensus that doesn't deviate too much from the population guidelines in the wiki, if at all reasonable. The US-Hamlet usage is an oddity that, IMHO, should not serve as a role model.

Simon


Am 02.01.2019 um 05:12 schrieb Allan Mustard:
Not according to the wiki.  It seems nodes are the accepted way of identifying a settlement, municipal or otherwise.  

On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 7:11 PM Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:


sent from a phone

> On 2. Jan 2019, at 00:44, Allan Mustard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> What do you think?


I have never understood why people wanted to add place tags to administrative territorial entities like countries, states or municipalities. Aren’t these thoroughly defined with boundary=administrative and the related admin_level?


Cheers, Martin
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