Dispute with user over changing wiki page

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Dispute with user over changing wiki page

Pee Wee

We are writing to you for advice on what steps we should or could take next. The situation is best summarized as:


1. A user is attempting to change, without consensus, the meaning of a tag that was accepted through a proposal process. There are 2 changes that are arguable: one is a considerable change and another is a recommendation to add a redundant (but not wrong) tag;

2. Several attempts have been made to revert the page to it's original state, without success;

3. Several times we have advised him to go to the tagging mailing list to discuss these changes with more people, without success.


On behalf of both John Packer and Hubert87


Cheers

PeeWee32



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Re: Dispute with user over changing wiki page

Michael Reichert
Hi PeeWee32,

Am 2014-11-08 um 16:47 schrieb Pee Wee:

> We are writing to you for advice on what steps we should or could take
> next. The situation is best summarized as:
>
>
> 1. A user is attempting to change, without consensus, the meaning of a tag
> that was accepted through a proposal process. There are 2 changes that are
> arguable: one is a considerable change and another is a recommendation to
> add a redundant (but not wrong) tag;
>
> 2. Several attempts have been made to revert the page to it's original
> state, without success;
>
> 3. Several times we have advised him to go to the tagging mailing list to
> discuss these changes with more people, without success.
My guess after reading the first sentence of your mail was right. There
is no need to hide the name of this user. Its name is ulamm (Ulrich
Lamm) from Bremen. He has long history of conflicts with other mappers
in Bremen, Germany and Germany's eastern neighbours. Let me shortly
summarize his conflicts:

1. name:de
In June this year he tried to delete almost all name:de tags in areas
which belonged to Germany before World War II. He said that OSM is full
of nazis and only capitals of foreign countries should have German names
in OSM. He also deleted other name:*=* tags in Poland and Czech
Republic. His motivation was that name:de=* had a higher priority than
name=* or int_name=* in rendering at openstreetmap.org.
http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=25719

2. Bicycle Tagging
This conflict exists especially in Bremen. I think you know the
important topics of this conflict.

In almost all topics his opinion is in difference to the opinion of OSM
community. He is a mapping-for-the-renderer-mapper and you cannot
discuss a topic with him.

Both in case 1 and 2 he was reported to DWG several times. DWG told him
that he will be blocked indefinitely if there is another conflict with
other OSM contributors. I would like to see himself blocked. It would
not be a loss for OSM community.

Best regards

Michael


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Re: Dispute with user over changing wiki page

Pee Wee
Thanks Micheal

I thought I just wait some days for other to reply but unfortunately no more then yours.  The question we still have is : What can we do? I suppose the DWG will only block when harm is done to the OSM database and not on any wiki pages. Anyone else for a recommendation as to what we can do?

Cheers
PeeWee32

2014-11-08 18:55 GMT+01:00 Michael Reichert <[hidden email]>:
Hi PeeWee32,

Am 2014-11-08 um 16:47 schrieb Pee Wee:
> We are writing to you for advice on what steps we should or could take
> next. The situation is best summarized as:
>
>
> 1. A user is attempting to change, without consensus, the meaning of a tag
> that was accepted through a proposal process. There are 2 changes that are
> arguable: one is a considerable change and another is a recommendation to
> add a redundant (but not wrong) tag;
>
> 2. Several attempts have been made to revert the page to it's original
> state, without success;
>
> 3. Several times we have advised him to go to the tagging mailing list to
> discuss these changes with more people, without success.

My guess after reading the first sentence of your mail was right. There
is no need to hide the name of this user. Its name is ulamm (Ulrich
Lamm) from Bremen. He has long history of conflicts with other mappers
in Bremen, Germany and Germany's eastern neighbours. Let me shortly
summarize his conflicts:

1. name:de
In June this year he tried to delete almost all name:de tags in areas
which belonged to Germany before World War II. He said that OSM is full
of nazis and only capitals of foreign countries should have German names
in OSM. He also deleted other name:*=* tags in Poland and Czech
Republic. His motivation was that name:de=* had a higher priority than
name=* or int_name=* in rendering at openstreetmap.org.
http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=25719

2. Bicycle Tagging
This conflict exists especially in Bremen. I think you know the
important topics of this conflict.

In almost all topics his opinion is in difference to the opinion of OSM
community. He is a mapping-for-the-renderer-mapper and you cannot
discuss a topic with him.

Both in case 1 and 2 he was reported to DWG several times. DWG told him
that he will be blocked indefinitely if there is another conflict with
other OSM contributors. I would like to see himself blocked. It would
not be a loss for OSM community.

Best regards

Michael


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Re: Dispute with user over changing wiki page

Michael Reichert
Hi Pee Wee,

Am 2014-11-11 um 19:20 schrieb Pee Wee:
> Thanks Micheal
>
> I thought I just wait some days for other to reply but unfortunately no
> more then yours.  The question we still have is : What can we do? I suppose
> the DWG will only block when harm is done to the OSM database and not on
> any wiki pages. Anyone else for a recommendation as to what we can do?

I was asked by DWG for advice in the case of ulamm. At that time he was
reported the third or fourth time to DWG (the first report was about his
"vandalism" in Poland and reported by myself in June). At that time
(this was in September) there was nothing which would have justified a
block. But it was obvious that he was the problem. In almost all debates
between him and the community, he was alone with his opion, everyone
else disagreed with him.

DWG told him in their last official message cleary that he would be
blocked (indefinitely) if complains about him continue in order to save
peace inside community. They told him that it is not ok to modify
tagging documentation to use these modified wiki pages as evidence for
his arguments.

I, as "adivsor", have got a copy of this official message on 4th October
2014. But it covers whole OSM – database, wiki etc.

My first message was sent to DWG in CC. I think they have a look at this
issue soon (Frederik has handled it the last time). Maybe I have to ask
him in a few days.

Best regards

Michael



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Re: Dispute with user over changing wiki page

Wolfgang Zenker
In reply to this post by Pee Wee
Hi,

* Pee Wee <[hidden email]> [141111 19:20]:
> I thought I just wait some days for other to reply but unfortunately no
> more then yours.  The question we still have is : What can we do? I suppose
> the DWG will only block when harm is done to the OSM database and not on
> any wiki pages. Anyone else for a recommendation as to what we can do?

the wiki admins can block changes to a specific wiki page with a strong
hint to please discuss changes on the mailing list or the talk page
before requesting an unblock of this page. Unfortunately your description
of the problem does not sound as if this would really help, though.

Wolfgang

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Re: Dispute with user over changing wiki page

Pee Wee
Thanks all. We'll contact the DWG and see what they can do.

Cheers
PeeWee32

2014-11-11 23:37 GMT+01:00 Wolfgang Zenker <[hidden email]>:
Hi,

* Pee Wee <[hidden email]> [141111 19:20]:
> I thought I just wait some days for other to reply but unfortunately no
> more then yours.  The question we still have is : What can we do? I suppose
> the DWG will only block when harm is done to the OSM database and not on
> any wiki pages. Anyone else for a recommendation as to what we can do?

the wiki admins can block changes to a specific wiki page with a strong
hint to please discuss changes on the mailing list or the talk page
before requesting an unblock of this page. Unfortunately your description
of the problem does not sound as if this would really help, though.

Wolfgang

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Re: Dispute with user over changing wiki page

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Michael Reichert

2014-11-08 18:55 GMT+01:00 Michael Reichert <[hidden email]>:
My guess after reading the first sentence of your mail was right. There
is no need to hide the name of this user. Its name is ulamm (name) from B. ...


I'd kindly ask you to not point to actual or presumed real life identities of OSM contributors and to not disclose their (presumed/actual) place of residence on public lists, unless they are publicly known or the mapper has authorized you to do so.

thank you,
Martin

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Re: Dispute with user over changing wiki page

Michael Reichert
Hi Martin,

Am 2014-11-13 um 17:56 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
> I'd kindly ask you to not point to actual or presumed real life identities
> of OSM contributors and to not disclose their (presumed/actual) place of
> residence on public lists, unless they are publicly known or the mapper has
> authorized you to do so.

I agree you. The location of ulamm is already public. Have a look at his
changesets and all the wiki pages he edited and where he argues with
other users. You will find out that he has local knowledge in B.

Best regards

Michael


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Re: Dispute with user over changing wiki page

dieterdreist

2014-11-13 18:32 GMT+01:00 Michael Reichert <[hidden email]>:
I agree you. The location of ulamm is already public. Have a look at his
changesets and all the wiki pages he edited and where he argues with
other users. You will find out that he has local knowledge in B.


yes, it can be guessed with high probability, but it requires inside knowledge, time and dedication, quite different from stating it in a searchengine compatible form ;-)

cheers,
Martin

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Re: Dispute with user over changing wiki page

Pee Wee
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
Good point Martin

For this issue it is irrelevant what the real life identity is of this user. I'll not mention any of this in the e-mail to the DWG. (Not that I know that much about this mapper)

Cheers
Peter

2014-11-13 17:56 GMT+01:00 Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]>:

2014-11-08 18:55 GMT+01:00 Michael Reichert <[hidden email]>:
My guess after reading the first sentence of your mail was right. There
is no need to hide the name of this user. Its name is ulamm (name) from B. ...


I'd kindly ask you to not point to actual or presumed real life identities of OSM contributors and to not disclose their (presumed/actual) place of residence on public lists, unless they are publicly known or the mapper has authorized you to do so.

thank you,
Martin

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Re: Dispute with user over changing wiki page

Frederik Ramm
In reply to this post by Pee Wee
Hi,

On 11/08/2014 04:47 PM, Pee Wee wrote:
> We are writing to you for advice on what steps we should or could take
> next. The situation is best summarized as:

[...]

After some consideration I have today asked user ulamm to refrain from
making any edits to wiki pages unless he has first proposed the edit on
the matching talk page and found broad support.

Any edit activity not conforming to this rule will lead to an account ban.

Data Working Group does not usually get involved in wiki edit wars but
in this case the wiki edit war has a direct connection to disputed edits
going on in our database, and this has been going on for quite some time
and several time-consuming attempts at talking reason into people,
including personal telephone calls, have failed.

This rule will remain in force until 31st January 2015, after which
normal editing may resume, but as soon as there's any complaint I will
extend this rule until 2016.

I will also (try to) revert all of ulamm's disputed edits on the Wiki.

A more detailed message, in German, is here:

https://lists.openstreetmap.de/pipermail/bremen/2014-December/000493.html

Bye
Frederik

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