Distinction between roadside rest and stopping area..

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Distinction between roadside rest and stopping area..

Bob Cameron
Rest areas are generally where one stops for a while, possibly
overnight. Often has bins and is some distance off the road it services.

Stopping areas are for a brief check of the vehicle, make phone call etc
and are usually just 1-2 lane widths of paved surface just off the road.

Are these both rest areas? I'd like some guidance on how to distinguish
between them if important.

Tnx


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Re: Distinction between roadside rest and stopping area..

Warin
On 11/1/21 2:46 pm, Bob Cameron wrote:

> Rest areas are generally where one stops for a while, possibly
> overnight. Often has bins and is some distance off the road it services.
>
> Stopping areas are for a brief check of the vehicle, make phone call
> etc and are usually just 1-2 lane widths of paved surface just off the
> road.
>
> Are these both rest areas? I'd like some guidance on how to
> distinguish between them if important.
>

Accoring to

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Stop_Area

stop area are for public transport...


Where as rest areas are public, mostly ... some are for trucks but again
have no restriction other than hte type of vehicle.


Do you have any links that show stoping areas in OSM are not just for
public transport?


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Re: Distinction between roadside rest and stopping area..

Little Maps
In reply to this post by Bob Cameron
Hi Bob, I haven’t mapped these but roadside rest areas in the NSW Riverina (and presumably elsewhere) have been mapped in many different ways, so I’m curious to hear people’s feedback. For example,

Some in regional towns have been mapped as leisure=park, name = XXX Rest Area, with toilets etc mapped separately, e.g.


Sometimes the park has been mapped as an area using leisure=park, and a point has been added with tourism=camp_site, name = XXX Rest Area, as here:


Sometimes tourism=camp_site, name = XXX Rest Area, has been added as a point beside a service road,


And sometimes both highway=rest_area and tourism=camp_site have both been added at the same place, as here:


So, in practice, tourism=camp_site seems to be used to identify areas where camping is allowed.

Many rest areas that allow camping in this region are right beside the highway, not far from it, and I haven’t seen any distinction between ‘stop over places’ and ‘rest areas’ as such.  Cheers Ian


On 11 Jan 2021, at 2:48 pm, Bob Cameron <[hidden email]> wrote:

Rest areas are generally where one stops for a while, possibly overnight. Often has bins and is some distance off the road it services.

Stopping areas are for a brief check of the vehicle, make phone call etc and are usually just 1-2 lane widths of paved surface just off the road.

Are these both rest areas? I'd like some guidance on how to distinguish between them if important.

Tnx


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Re: Distinction between roadside rest and stopping area..

Warin
Parks tend to be operated by local councils.
NSW Rest Areas and probably other states/teritories tend to be operated by the main roads people (RMS NSW).

NSW Rest Areas are shown as such on the DCS Base Map, you do have to zoom in.

Note that at least some NSW Rest Areas do not allow long stays e.g. more than 4 hours - specifically camping. See https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents/roads/using-roads/rest-area-parking-restrictions-trial-faq.pdf  This comes from several sources - local commercial campsites loosing business, littering, bad behavior. An excuse is that the driver found themselves so fatigued they had to stop and rest .. and slept, should 'work' for an overnight.



On 11/1/21 9:49 pm, Little Maps wrote:
Hi Bob, I haven’t mapped these but roadside rest areas in the NSW Riverina (and presumably elsewhere) have been mapped in many different ways, so I’m curious to hear people’s feedback. For example,

Some in regional towns have been mapped as leisure=park, name = XXX Rest Area, with toilets etc mapped separately, e.g.


Sometimes the park has been mapped as an area using leisure=park, and a point has been added with tourism=camp_site, name = XXX Rest Area, as here:


Sometimes tourism=camp_site, name = XXX Rest Area, has been added as a point beside a service road,


And sometimes both highway=rest_area and tourism=camp_site have both been added at the same place, as here:


So, in practice, tourism=camp_site seems to be used to identify areas where camping is allowed.

Many rest areas that allow camping in this region are right beside the highway, not far from it, and I haven’t seen any distinction between ‘stop over places’ and ‘rest areas’ as such.  Cheers Ian


On 11 Jan 2021, at 2:48 pm, Bob Cameron [hidden email] wrote:

Rest areas are generally where one stops for a while, possibly overnight. Often has bins and is some distance off the road it services.

Stopping areas are for a brief check of the vehicle, make phone call etc and are usually just 1-2 lane widths of paved surface just off the road.

Are these both rest areas? I'd like some guidance on how to distinguish between them if important.

Tnx


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Re: Distinction between roadside rest and stopping area..

Andrew Hughes
Hi All,

In addition to your comment about trucks Warin. There are many rest areas that are for trucks only. I believe there are tags for this so I assume you're not tagging them for the trucking industry just light vehicle rest areas?

Cheers,
A Hughes.

FWIW: Truck rest areas are quite a contentious issue because truck drivers have legal limits on drive time to manage fatigue and the rest area stops are baked into their journey before they set off. They're understandably none too happy when they get to a rest area that should be dedicated to them for some shut eye only to find it full of caravans or to have caravans making noise (esp. Generators) which doesn't allow them to get the sleep they need. Consequently, its would be good to have a distinction in the data or intentially avoid adding the truck rest areas if all you wanted was light  vehicles. :)

On Tue, 12 Jan. 2021, 7:36 am Warin, <[hidden email]> wrote:
Parks tend to be operated by local councils.
NSW Rest Areas and probably other states/teritories tend to be operated by the main roads people (RMS NSW).

NSW Rest Areas are shown as such on the DCS Base Map, you do have to zoom in.

Note that at least some NSW Rest Areas do not allow long stays e.g. more than 4 hours - specifically camping. See https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents/roads/using-roads/rest-area-parking-restrictions-trial-faq.pdf  This comes from several sources - local commercial campsites loosing business, littering, bad behavior. An excuse is that the driver found themselves so fatigued they had to stop and rest .. and slept, should 'work' for an overnight.



On 11/1/21 9:49 pm, Little Maps wrote:
Hi Bob, I haven’t mapped these but roadside rest areas in the NSW Riverina (and presumably elsewhere) have been mapped in many different ways, so I’m curious to hear people’s feedback. For example,

Some in regional towns have been mapped as leisure=park, name = XXX Rest Area, with toilets etc mapped separately, e.g.


Sometimes the park has been mapped as an area using leisure=park, and a point has been added with tourism=camp_site, name = XXX Rest Area, as here:


Sometimes tourism=camp_site, name = XXX Rest Area, has been added as a point beside a service road,


And sometimes both highway=rest_area and tourism=camp_site have both been added at the same place, as here:


So, in practice, tourism=camp_site seems to be used to identify areas where camping is allowed.

Many rest areas that allow camping in this region are right beside the highway, not far from it, and I haven’t seen any distinction between ‘stop over places’ and ‘rest areas’ as such.  Cheers Ian


On 11 Jan 2021, at 2:48 pm, Bob Cameron [hidden email] wrote:

Rest areas are generally where one stops for a while, possibly overnight. Often has bins and is some distance off the road it services.

Stopping areas are for a brief check of the vehicle, make phone call etc and are usually just 1-2 lane widths of paved surface just off the road.

Are these both rest areas? I'd like some guidance on how to distinguish between them if important.

Tnx


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Re: Distinction between roadside rest and stopping area..

Andrew Harvey-3

On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 at 09:26, Andrew Hughes <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi All,

In addition to your comment about trucks Warin. There are many rest areas that are for trucks only. I believe there are tags for this so I assume you're not tagging them for the trucking industry just light vehicle rest areas?

Cheers,
A Hughes.

FWIW: Truck rest areas are quite a contentious issue because truck drivers have legal limits on drive time to manage fatigue and the rest area stops are baked into their journey before they set off. They're understandably none too happy when they get to a rest area that should be dedicated to them for some shut eye only to find it full of caravans or to have caravans making noise (esp. Generators) which doesn't allow them to get the sleep they need. Consequently, its would be good to have a distinction in the data or intentially avoid adding the truck rest areas if all you wanted was light  vehicles. :)

I would still class these as highway=rest_area based on them meeting the criteria of "A rest area is place along a road, usually a motorway or dual-carriageway, where a driver can stop to have a rest."

If signposted for truck drivers, then I'd add hgv=designated per access tagging https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:access and if other vehicle users can't access them then tag those as no (I prefer not to use access=no + hgv=designated, but in this case it might be best to exclude all other users apart from hgv).

Does this sound workable?


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Re: Distinction between roadside rest and stopping area..

Andrew Hughes
Hi Andrew,

I also feel highway=rest_area is correct, but what about the use/inclusion of  ammenity=parking?

I also believe that hgv=dedicated is correct, but so too would be using capacity...


capacity:car=no
capacity:hgv=32  or  capacity:hgv=yes (if you don't know how many parking bay's there are and many are just a gravel lot)

I will be quite interested in mapping (and documenting this as a convention) this in the future within the NHVR.

This thread may now be off track from the originating question, I am happy to park the heavy vehicle discussion here (pun intended).

Cheers,
A Hughes





On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 at 08:42, Andrew Harvey <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 at 09:26, Andrew Hughes <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi All,

In addition to your comment about trucks Warin. There are many rest areas that are for trucks only. I believe there are tags for this so I assume you're not tagging them for the trucking industry just light vehicle rest areas?

Cheers,
A Hughes.

FWIW: Truck rest areas are quite a contentious issue because truck drivers have legal limits on drive time to manage fatigue and the rest area stops are baked into their journey before they set off. They're understandably none too happy when they get to a rest area that should be dedicated to them for some shut eye only to find it full of caravans or to have caravans making noise (esp. Generators) which doesn't allow them to get the sleep they need. Consequently, its would be good to have a distinction in the data or intentially avoid adding the truck rest areas if all you wanted was light  vehicles. :)

I would still class these as highway=rest_area based on them meeting the criteria of "A rest area is place along a road, usually a motorway or dual-carriageway, where a driver can stop to have a rest."

If signposted for truck drivers, then I'd add hgv=designated per access tagging https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:access and if other vehicle users can't access them then tag those as no (I prefer not to use access=no + hgv=designated, but in this case it might be best to exclude all other users apart from hgv).

Does this sound workable?


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Re: Distinction between roadside rest and stopping area..

Bob Cameron
In reply to this post by Bob Cameron
I have reposted this without the photo - awaiting moderator

======

Warin and Ian,


Sorry I didn't  quite make myself clear...

Say an end user with a navigation GPS wants a place to stop away from
the nearby traffic..

I have seen in many (mostly highway) places, sign posted or not, often
paved "small" rest areas. They are only really fit/safe for a brief stop
rather than a longer rest.

Attached is one of my (cropped) Mapillary imagery pics. Being wide angle
its hard to tell but this is an obvious stopping point about 2 lanes
width and 60m long. It was not sign posted nor was it opposite a farm
gate or the like. It is not a slip lane for turning left.

They seem quite common on major highways in southern Qld and are well
sign posted. The intention would seem to be for trucks that risk sinking
in mud if they need to stop, but any vehicle is allowed. Unfortunately I
don't know of any OSM examples..

My question is, do I create these as a rest area, something else, or not
at all.

Ian, I tend to map toilet, picnic shelter, playground equipment
separately to the rest area. I haven't as yet had to define a rest area
as a campground even though I camp in them! I also encounter a lot of
fee camping areas that have ablution blocks shared with public use, so I
often add them separately. My "local knowledge" as such.

Tnxs much

On 11/1/21 2:46 pm, Bob Cameron wrote:

> Rest areas are generally where one stops for a while, possibly
> overnight. Often has bins and is some distance off the road it services.
>
> Stopping areas are for a brief check of the vehicle, make phone call
> etc and are usually just 1-2 lane widths of paved surface just off the
> road.
>
> Are these both rest areas? I'd like some guidance on how to
> distinguish between them if important.
>
> Tnx
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Talk-au mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au



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Re: Distinction between roadside rest and stopping area..

Kim Oldfield
Hi Bob,

Rather than emailing photos can you include a mapillary link to the photo?

On 12/1/21 11:19 am, Bob Cameron wrote:
> I have reposted this without the photo - awaiting moderator
...
> Attached is one of my (cropped) Mapillary imagery pics. Being wide
> angle its hard to tell but this is an obvious stopping point about 2
> lanes width and 60m long. It was not sign posted nor was it opposite a
> farm gate or the like. It is not a slip lane for turning left.


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Re: Distinction between roadside rest and stopping area..

Warin
In reply to this post by Bob Cameron
On 12/1/21 11:19 am, Bob Cameron wrote:

> I have reposted this without the photo - awaiting moderator
>
> ======
>
> Warin and Ian,
>
>
> Sorry I didn't  quite make myself clear...
>
> Say an end user with a navigation GPS wants a place to stop away from
> the nearby traffic..
>
> I have seen in many (mostly highway) places, sign posted or not, often
> paved "small" rest areas. They are only really fit/safe for a brief
> stop rather than a longer rest.
>
> Attached is one of my (cropped) Mapillary imagery pics. Being wide
> angle its hard to tell but this is an obvious stopping point about 2
> lanes width and 60m long. It was not sign posted nor was it opposite a
> farm gate or the like. It is not a slip lane for turning left.
>
> They seem quite common on major highways in southern Qld and are well
> sign posted. The intention would seem to be for trucks that risk
> sinking in mud if they need to stop, but any vehicle is allowed.
> Unfortunately I don't know of any OSM examples..
>
> My question is, do I create these as a rest area, something else, or
> not at all.


The difference between 'rest area' and 'stopping area' looks subjective
to me.

Your call on what you create. If you consider it a 'rest area' then tag
them as such.

A 'stopping area'? I suppose you could map them as parking areas... is
there a formal time limit? Some rest areas have formal time limits too.


>
> Ian, I tend to map toilet, picnic shelter, playground equipment
> separately to the rest area. I haven't as yet had to define a rest
> area as a campground even though I camp in them! I also encounter a
> lot of fee camping areas that have ablution blocks shared with public
> use, so I often add them separately. My "local knowledge" as such.
>
> Tnxs much
>
> On 11/1/21 2:46 pm, Bob Cameron wrote:
>> Rest areas are generally where one stops for a while, possibly
>> overnight. Often has bins and is some distance off the road it services.
>>
>> Stopping areas are for a brief check of the vehicle, make phone call
>> etc and are usually just 1-2 lane widths of paved surface just off
>> the road.
>>
>> Are these both rest areas? I'd like some guidance on how to
>> distinguish between them if important.
>>
>> Tnx
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Talk-au mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Talk-au mailing list
> [hidden email]
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Re: Distinction between roadside rest and stopping area..

Bob Cameron
Thanks Warin and all for comments/ideas.

Have made them parking areas.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/97398645
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/97398797

Cheers

On 13/1/21 8:35 am, Warin wrote:

>
> The difference between 'rest area' and 'stopping area' looks
> subjective to me.
>
> Your call on what you create. If you consider it a 'rest area' then
> tag them as such.
>
> A 'stopping area'? I suppose you could map them as parking areas... is
> there a formal time limit? Some rest areas have formal time limits too.
>

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Re: Distinction between roadside rest and stopping area..

Sebastian Spiess
In reply to this post by Andrew Hughes
Most topics where we find some common ground are worthwhile documenting.

A two step process could be to write something up on your personal OSM Wiki Page. Then this can be shared and commented before it gets moved/merged to the AU guidelines or else.

I can only recommend to use a crack at writing these points together. Additional point will come up.

On 12 January 2021 10:20:14 am AEDT, Andrew Hughes <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Andrew,

I also feel highway=rest_area is correct, but what about the use/inclusion of  ammenity=parking?

I also believe that hgv=dedicated is correct, but so too would be using capacity...


capacity:car=no
capacity:hgv=32  or  capacity:hgv=yes (if you don't know how many parking bay's there are and many are just a gravel lot)

I will be quite interested in mapping (and documenting this as a convention) this in the future within the NHVR.

This thread may now be off track from the originating question, I am happy to park the heavy vehicle discussion here (pun intended).

Cheers,
A Hughes





On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 at 08:42, Andrew Harvey <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 at 09:26, Andrew Hughes <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi All,

In addition to your comment about trucks Warin. There are many rest areas that are for trucks only. I believe there are tags for this so I assume you're not tagging them for the trucking industry just light vehicle rest areas?

Cheers,
A Hughes.

FWIW: Truck rest areas are quite a contentious issue because truck drivers have legal limits on drive time to manage fatigue and the rest area stops are baked into their journey before they set off. They're understandably none too happy when they get to a rest area that should be dedicated to them for some shut eye only to find it full of caravans or to have caravans making noise (esp. Generators) which doesn't allow them to get the sleep they need. Consequently, its would be good to have a distinction in the data or intentially avoid adding the truck rest areas if all you wanted was light  vehicles. :)

I would still class these as highway=rest_area based on them meeting the criteria of "A rest area is place along a road, usually a motorway or dual-carriageway, where a driver can stop to have a rest."

If signposted for truck drivers, then I'd add hgv=designated per access tagging https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:access and if other vehicle users can't access them then tag those as no (I prefer not to use access=no + hgv=designated, but in this case it might be best to exclude all other users apart from hgv).

Does this sound workable?


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Re: Distinction between roadside rest and stopping area..

Little Maps
I’ll have a go at summarising the points in a diary post unless someone else is keen. As a general query, other than posting a link to a diary post on a message board, do diary posts get read by many mappers? How do people find them? Cheers Ian

On 13 Jan 2021, at 10:26 am, Sebastian S. <[hidden email]> wrote:

Most topics where we find some common ground are worthwhile documenting.

A two step process could be to write something up on your personal OSM Wiki Page. Then this can be shared and commented before it gets moved/merged to the AU guidelines or else.

I can only recommend to use a crack at writing these points together. Additional point will come up.

On 12 January 2021 10:20:14 am AEDT, Andrew Hughes <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Andrew,

I also feel highway=rest_area is correct, but what about the use/inclusion of  ammenity=parking?

I also believe that hgv=dedicated is correct, but so too would be using capacity...


capacity:car=no
capacity:hgv=32  or  capacity:hgv=yes (if you don't know how many parking bay's there are and many are just a gravel lot)

I will be quite interested in mapping (and documenting this as a convention) this in the future within the NHVR.

This thread may now be off track from the originating question, I am happy to park the heavy vehicle discussion here (pun intended).

Cheers,
A Hughes





On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 at 08:42, Andrew Harvey <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 at 09:26, Andrew Hughes <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi All,

In addition to your comment about trucks Warin. There are many rest areas that are for trucks only. I believe there are tags for this so I assume you're not tagging them for the trucking industry just light vehicle rest areas?

Cheers,
A Hughes.

FWIW: Truck rest areas are quite a contentious issue because truck drivers have legal limits on drive time to manage fatigue and the rest area stops are baked into their journey before they set off. They're understandably none too happy when they get to a rest area that should be dedicated to them for some shut eye only to find it full of caravans or to have caravans making noise (esp. Generators) which doesn't allow them to get the sleep they need. Consequently, its would be good to have a distinction in the data or intentially avoid adding the truck rest areas if all you wanted was light  vehicles. :)

I would still class these as highway=rest_area based on them meeting the criteria of "A rest area is place along a road, usually a motorway or dual-carriageway, where a driver can stop to have a rest."

If signposted for truck drivers, then I'd add hgv=designated per access tagging https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:access and if other vehicle users can't access them then tag those as no (I prefer not to use access=no + hgv=designated, but in this case it might be best to exclude all other users apart from hgv).

Does this sound workable?

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Re: Distinction between roadside rest and stopping area..

Andy Townsend
On 13/01/2021 10:37, Little Maps wrote:
> I’ll have a go at summarising the points in a diary post unless
> someone else is keen. As a general query, other than posting a link to
> a diary post on a message board, do diary posts get read by many
> mappers? How do people find them? Cheers Ian
>
Diary entries appear at https://blogs.openstreetmap.org/ , and some
people read that feed.

You can also submit any URL to https://weeklyosm.eu/ via
https://weeklyosm.eu/this-news-should-be-in-weeklyosm

Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: Distinction between roadside rest and stopping area..

Sebastian Spiess
Both ideas are great and I read both feeds. Not every day but semi regularly.

On 13 January 2021 10:19:48 pm AEDT, Andy Townsend <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 13/01/2021 10:37, Little Maps wrote:
I’ll have a go at summarising the points in a diary post unless
someone else is keen. As a general query, other than posting a link to
a diary post on a message board, do diary posts get read by many
mappers? How do people find them? Cheers Ian

Diary entries appear at https://blogs.openstreetmap.org/ , and some
people read that feed.

You can also submit any URL to https://weeklyosm.eu/ via
https://weeklyosm.eu/this-news-should-be-in-weeklyosm

Best Regards,

Andy
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Re: Distinction between roadside rest and stopping area..

Little Maps
In reply to this post by Andy Townsend
Thanks Andy, I’ll check out the blog link. I found the WeeklyOSM posts on Reddit, they’re a fantastic overview of activities around the globe. Cheers Ian

> On 13 Jan 2021, at 10:47 pm, Andy Townsend <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 13/01/2021 10:37, Little Maps wrote:
>> I’ll have a go at summarising the points in a diary post unless someone else is keen. As a general query, other than posting a link to a diary post on a message board, do diary posts get read by many mappers? How do people find them? Cheers Ian
>>
> Diary entries appear at https://blogs.openstreetmap.org/ , and some people read that feed.
>
> You can also submit any URL to https://weeklyosm.eu/ via https://weeklyosm.eu/this-news-should-be-in-weeklyosm
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Talk-au mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au

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Re: Distinction between roadside rest and stopping area..

Warin
I would think this applies not only in Australia and could be placed on the rest area discussion page rather than the Australian guidelines. 
On 14/1/21 7:52 am, Little Maps wrote:
Thanks Andy, I’ll check out the blog link. I found the WeeklyOSM posts on Reddit, they’re a fantastic overview of activities around the globe. Cheers Ian

On 13 Jan 2021, at 10:47 pm, Andy Townsend [hidden email] wrote:

On 13/01/2021 10:37, Little Maps wrote:
I’ll have a go at summarising the points in a diary post unless someone else is keen. As a general query, other than posting a link to a diary post on a message board, do diary posts get read by many mappers? How do people find them? Cheers Ian

Diary entries appear at https://blogs.openstreetmap.org/ , and some people read that feed.

You can also submit any URL to https://weeklyosm.eu/ via https://weeklyosm.eu/this-news-should-be-in-weeklyosm

Best Regards,

Andy



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