Draft tag for Airport Security Zones | Non-voting procedure

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
9 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Draft tag for Airport Security Zones | Non-voting procedure

brycenesbitt
Now I'm not going to run a regular vote on this.  The wiki vote process attracts a small number of non-representative and rather argumentative mappers. 

Discussion about the tag is welcome. But instead of "voting" I challenge mappers to tag these features in real airports, perhaps using this tag style. As multiple mappers converge on a tagging that works, this proposal page can be revisited.  If this is a good tag, that will show up in taginfo after a while, and the feature can be documented as "defacto".

Tagging votes accepted via JOSM, Potlatch or iD.
For example:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3539479319/history


_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Draft tag for Airport Security Zones | Non-voting procedure

Marc Gemis
I'm not really familiar with the topic, but in Europe there is a special treatment for "Schengen passengers"  see [1]
I wonder whether it is just the customs or that there are really zones related to this within the airport. If so, there might me a need for a separate value for that.
Maybe someone with more travel experience can comment on this ?

regards

m




On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 7:06 PM, Bryce Nesbitt <[hidden email]> wrote:
Now I'm not going to run a regular vote on this.  The wiki vote process attracts a small number of non-representative and rather argumentative mappers. 

Discussion about the tag is welcome. But instead of "voting" I challenge mappers to tag these features in real airports, perhaps using this tag style. As multiple mappers converge on a tagging that works, this proposal page can be revisited.  If this is a good tag, that will show up in taginfo after a while, and the feature can be documented as "defacto".

Tagging votes accepted via JOSM, Potlatch or iD.
For example:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3539479319/history


_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging



_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Draft tag for Airport Security Zones | Non-voting procedure

John Willis

> On Jun 15, 2015, at 8:20 PM, Marc Gemis <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I'm not really familiar with the topic, but in Europe there is a special treatment for "Schengen passengers"  see [1]
> I wonder whether it is just the customs or that there are really zones related to this within the airport. If so, there might me a need for a separate value for that.
> Maybe someone with more travel experience can comment on this ?
>
> regards
>
> m

Summary: this is not an area of the airport - it is an area of Europe - so this affects immigration policy of customs and immigration officials at existing checkpoints - but AFAIK is not a separate mappable zone at the airports in the EU.

This becomes a factor when dealing with domestic versus international areas - traveling through the EU countries who accepted the Schengen proposal  (if I read the article correctly)  is similar to or the same as "domestic” travel inside a single country. People arriving on an intra-EU flight between these countries is arriving at the “domestic” terminal, as there is no visa check, hence no immigration check. Reading the wiki page, it sounds like they do common “security” checks, you *do* have to prove nationality, but do *not* have to prove your visa status if you are identified as a resident of a Schengen country.

Someone flying from outside the EU Shengen area  (inter-EU travel, like from Japan ^_^ ) would be arriving at the international terminal and will go through immigration / visa check.

so I’m pretty sure this is not an area of the airport - but merely immigration rules followed by immigration officials.

EG: it should be covered by common domestic/international/transit areas as we already understand them

The only way I could be wrong is if they have a “Schengen” terminal or something like it : special *facilities* at the airport *separate* from the normal domestic and international style terminals. Not a separate Schengen line at immigration, or a security checkpoint, but if there is a distinct area that is different from Domestic and International.

EU residents care to chime in?

Javbw
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Draft tag for Airport Security Zones | Non-voting procedure

Paul Norman
On 6/15/2015 5:42 AM, johnw wrote:
The only way I could be wrong is if they have a “Schengen” terminal or something like it : special *facilities* at the airport *separate* from the normal domestic and international style terminals. Not a separate Schengen line at immigration, or a security checkpoint, but if there is a distinct area that is different from Domestic and International.

EU residents care to chime in?
As someone who has been doing too many flights lately, in Canada airports often have domestic, international, and trans-border. Trans-border is for flights to or from the US and have a special customs arrangement. This is, unfortunately, unmappable. Which gates are part of which terminal can shift around depending on time of day and what flights there are, and there is no specific schedule.

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Draft tag for Airport Security Zones | Non-voting procedure

John Willis


> On Jun 16, 2015, at 6:43 AM, Paul Norman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Which gates are part of which terminal can shift around depending on time of day and what flights there are, and there is no specific schedule.


This is my guess for how it is in the eu - its merely how immigration reacts to arriving customers, not a static state or description of the terminal - which are often labeled domestic or international.

Javbw
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Draft tag for Airport Security Zones | Non-voting procedure

brycenesbitt
In reply to this post by Paul Norman
On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 2:43 PM, Paul Norman <[hidden email]> wrote:
As someone who has been doing too many flights lately, in Canada airports often have domestic, international, and trans-border. Trans-border is for flights to or from the US and have a special customs arrangement. This is, unfortunately, unmappable. Which gates are part of which terminal can shift around depending on time of day and what flights there are, and there is no specific schedule.

Are these functions still handled in (mappable) part of the building?
Are the restrooms and charging stations assignable to a "zone" that is constant?

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Draft tag for Airport Security Zones | Non-voting procedure

Paul Norman
On 6/15/2015 10:01 PM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:
> Are these functions still handled in (mappable) part of the building?
Entry into the different zones is at fixed points
> Are the restrooms and charging stations assignable to a "zone" that is
> constant?
No. In practice, this isn't typically an issue because the closest
facilities are normally in the same zone as you are, both for security
and customs. They also tend to be less useful features because it's
easier to look up for a restroom sign than use a device.

And this is leaving aside flights that arrive, where they may send you
on at least two sets of internal passages leading out of secured areas,
or into the general waiting area at the gates.

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Draft tag for Airport Security Zones | Non-voting procedure

brycenesbitt


On Tue, Jun 16, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Paul Norman <[hidden email]> wrote:
They also tend to be less useful features because it's easier to look up for a restroom sign than use a device.

Agreed for restrooms.

For charging stations, which are less well signed and numerous, I seem OSM as adding value.
If you know a given station is in (say) the "International Transit Lounge" you may be able to match
that up to your given plans.

Your given flight may or may not deposit you in the "International Transit Lounge", but you may know in
advance what the status of your flight will be.

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Draft tag for Airport Security Zones | Non-voting procedure

John Willis

On Jun 17, 2015, at 7:13 AM, Bryce Nesbitt <[hidden email]> wrote:



On Tue, Jun 16, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Paul Norman <[hidden email]> wrote:
They also tend to be less useful features because it's easier to look up for a restroom sign than use a device.

Agreed for restrooms.

For charging stations,

 "International Transit Lounge”

status of your flight


AFAIK, this is about mapping the different named areas of the *terminal* - AKA how do people refer to the areas of the terminal itself. 

is it domestic? International? in the “sterile” area after security check? is it arrivals, departures, or both? 

i don’t think we can map the area before or after the checkpoints yet, as indoor mapping is not finalized -  so lets skip the sterile stuff for now. 

the aeroway=gate tag isn’t for the building nor the passengers inside - it is where the nose-wheel of the plane parks - the current gate tag is for the *plane* not the passengers. we have no good way to map the people side of the airport yet - just what is there for the planes and the large visible building sections of the terminal (and pin points where amenities and shops and whatnot are) . 

A certain kind of flight may arrive with a certain kind of passengers, but is the terminal they arrive at have a specially named area of the terminal used just for this kind of passenger, beyond international and domestic? My guess is no. Because they are just going through the international arrivals section of the international terminal to immigration, and onto international baggage claim, then through customs into the public area of the airport.

For now, mapping the “domestic” and “international” labels of the terminal, as well as the “satellites” of the terminals - all of these are buildings (or very large pieces of buildings) are named on airport guide maps, and should be easily mapped as OSM is today, probably with a terminal=* subtag

terminal:travellers=international
terminal:travellers=domestic
terminal:travellers=mixed

Terminal:part=satellite 
Terminal:part=wing 
Terminal:part=main

these work together, as often large sections of a terminal are designated for international or domestic use (the design of modern terminals are purpose built for one or the other and not adaptable, so it is permanently designated) - if the whole terminal itself is not dedicated for a particular way.  Having a slightly darker or lighter shade of purple for the international or domestic sections can make seeing which terminals or terminal satellites serve what purpose very easy. 


After indoor mapping is finalized, then we can worry about levels being assigned to departures, arrivals, transit, security checks, private, etc,etc. 


I think those above tags are the only “zones" we can create for inside the terminal now - the zones on the apron or runway area could be mapped now, as they are not indoor areas. 


Javbw


_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging