Drain vs ditch

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Re: Drain vs ditch

Eugene Podshivalov
Tod, what would be definition of "drain"?

Eugene

пт, 11 янв. 2019 г. в 21:10, Tod Fitch <[hidden email]>:

> On Jan 11, 2019, at 8:36 AM, ael <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> As a native speaker, I do not recognise "canal" as appropriate for
> irrigation. That is not to say that some canals may also be used
> partly for irrigation.
>
> But the phrase "irrigation ditch" is common and understood.  Bear in
> mind that the UK is mainly a fairly wet place, so the need for
> substantial irrigation is not high except in some special cases.  The
> unqualified word "ditch" would normally be understood as an artificial
> unlined and usually small watercourse. But also, in certain contexts,
> for a historic trench acting as a defense or fence, not necessarily
> containing water.
>
> That seems to accord with a the sub tag irrigation=yes on ditches -
> and maybe on other waterways if that is one of the uses/functions.
>
> ael
>

+1

In the desert where I was raised the cotton fields were surrounded with “irrigation ditches”, or “ditches” for short. The fields were watered from the ditches by either syphon hoses or sluice gates.

Later, when working on road projects, I found that the low areas on the sides of roads (often used as “side borrow” areas during construction of the roadway) were formally called “drainage ditches” or just “ditches” for short.

So to me a ditch is simply a channel dug to move water.

But I am an American and our terms diverge somewhat from UK usage. So I looked it up in my older paper version of the OED to find the first two definition are “1. An excavation narrow in proportion to its length; the trench or fosse of a fortification, etc.”. “2. Such a hollow dug out to receive or conduct water, esp. to carry off the surface drainage of a road or field, etc.”

Based on the second, I can see the reason why some would conflate “drainage ditch” with simply “ditch”. But I don’t see from this where even in UK usage a ditch has to be for drainage. It is simply a long narrow excavation and, in the waterway sense, dug to conduct water from one place to another.


Cheers!
tf


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Re: Drain vs ditch

Tod Fitch
Most of what I’d call a drain around here would be large underground pipes designed to carry storm water. Empty most of the time except perhaps for a trickle of water from various urban/suburban watering overflow. Used most of the time by raccoons, possums and rats as away to navigate through or shelter in an area without having to worry about being attacked by neighborhood dogs, though the larger ones could be attractive for adventuresome teenage boys to explore.

I’d call the open air, usually concrete lined, versions “storm channels” though that might be a local colloquial. Many/most of those follow reasonably close to the alignment of the original natural waterways and often carry the same name as the original (e.g. “Santa Ana River”, “Los Angele River”, etc.). Again “river” would be a historic term as they are often dry except during or immediately after a storm.

Cheers!

On Jan 11, 2019, at 10:18 AM, Eugene Podshivalov <[hidden email]> wrote:

Tod, what would be definition of "drain"?

Eugene

пт, 11 янв. 2019 г. в 21:10, Tod Fitch <[hidden email]>:

> On Jan 11, 2019, at 8:36 AM, ael <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> As a native speaker, I do not recognise "canal" as appropriate for
> irrigation. That is not to say that some canals may also be used
> partly for irrigation.
>
> But the phrase "irrigation ditch" is common and understood.  Bear in
> mind that the UK is mainly a fairly wet place, so the need for
> substantial irrigation is not high except in some special cases.  The
> unqualified word "ditch" would normally be understood as an artificial
> unlined and usually small watercourse. But also, in certain contexts,
> for a historic trench acting as a defense or fence, not necessarily
> containing water.
>
> That seems to accord with a the sub tag irrigation=yes on ditches -
> and maybe on other waterways if that is one of the uses/functions.
>
> ael
>

+1

In the desert where I was raised the cotton fields were surrounded with “irrigation ditches”, or “ditches” for short. The fields were watered from the ditches by either syphon hoses or sluice gates.

Later, when working on road projects, I found that the low areas on the sides of roads (often used as “side borrow” areas during construction of the roadway) were formally called “drainage ditches” or just “ditches” for short.

So to me a ditch is simply a channel dug to move water.

But I am an American and our terms diverge somewhat from UK usage. So I looked it up in my older paper version of the OED to find the first two definition are “1. An excavation narrow in proportion to its length; the trench or fosse of a fortification, etc.”. “2. Such a hollow dug out to receive or conduct water, esp. to carry off the surface drainage of a road or field, etc.”

Based on the second, I can see the reason why some would conflate “drainage ditch” with simply “ditch”. But I don’t see from this where even in UK usage a ditch has to be for drainage. It is simply a long narrow excavation and, in the waterway sense, dug to conduct water from one place to another.


Cheers!
tf


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Re: Drain vs ditch

François Lacombe-2
During the RFC of waterways for power generation proposal several discussion raised because of some waterways values. Drain and ditches were ones of them.

Currently, both canal and drain refer to structure and usage also.
Canal is designed for useful water while drain is intended for waste water.
usage=* comes to give more information of what canal is intended for.

Regarding ditch, it regards both useful and waste water.

If we choose to be consistent in waterway=* values, waterway=drain should be abandonned in favor of canal + appropriate usage=* values.
Then we'll obtain waterway=canal for artificial waterways whatever their usage and waterway=river, stream and ditch for natural or not-lined watercourses.

It's long time changes, see the table here : https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:waterway#Values

All the best

François

Le ven. 11 janv. 2019 à 20:05, Tod Fitch <[hidden email]> a écrit :
Most of what I’d call a drain around here would be large underground pipes designed to carry storm water. Empty most of the time except perhaps for a trickle of water from various urban/suburban watering overflow. Used most of the time by raccoons, possums and rats as away to navigate through or shelter in an area without having to worry about being attacked by neighborhood dogs, though the larger ones could be attractive for adventuresome teenage boys to explore.

I’d call the open air, usually concrete lined, versions “storm channels” though that might be a local colloquial. Many/most of those follow reasonably close to the alignment of the original natural waterways and often carry the same name as the original (e.g. “Santa Ana River”, “Los Angele River”, etc.). Again “river” would be a historic term as they are often dry except during or immediately after a storm.

Cheers!

On Jan 11, 2019, at 10:18 AM, Eugene Podshivalov <[hidden email]> wrote:

Tod, what would be definition of "drain"?

Eugene

пт, 11 янв. 2019 г. в 21:10, Tod Fitch <[hidden email]>:

> On Jan 11, 2019, at 8:36 AM, ael <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> As a native speaker, I do not recognise "canal" as appropriate for
> irrigation. That is not to say that some canals may also be used
> partly for irrigation.
>
> But the phrase "irrigation ditch" is common and understood.  Bear in
> mind that the UK is mainly a fairly wet place, so the need for
> substantial irrigation is not high except in some special cases.  The
> unqualified word "ditch" would normally be understood as an artificial
> unlined and usually small watercourse. But also, in certain contexts,
> for a historic trench acting as a defense or fence, not necessarily
> containing water.
>
> That seems to accord with a the sub tag irrigation=yes on ditches -
> and maybe on other waterways if that is one of the uses/functions.
>
> ael
>

+1

In the desert where I was raised the cotton fields were surrounded with “irrigation ditches”, or “ditches” for short. The fields were watered from the ditches by either syphon hoses or sluice gates.

Later, when working on road projects, I found that the low areas on the sides of roads (often used as “side borrow” areas during construction of the roadway) were formally called “drainage ditches” or just “ditches” for short.

So to me a ditch is simply a channel dug to move water.

But I am an American and our terms diverge somewhat from UK usage. So I looked it up in my older paper version of the OED to find the first two definition are “1. An excavation narrow in proportion to its length; the trench or fosse of a fortification, etc.”. “2. Such a hollow dug out to receive or conduct water, esp. to carry off the surface drainage of a road or field, etc.”

Based on the second, I can see the reason why some would conflate “drainage ditch” with simply “ditch”. But I don’t see from this where even in UK usage a ditch has to be for drainage. It is simply a long narrow excavation and, in the waterway sense, dug to conduct water from one place to another.


Cheers!
tf


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Re: Drain vs ditch

ael-3
On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 09:01:47PM +0100, François Lacombe wrote:

>
> Currently, both canal and drain refer to structure and usage also.
> Canal is designed for useful water while drain is intended for waste water.
> usage=* comes to give more information of what canal is intended for.
>
> Regarding ditch, it regards both useful and waste water.
>
> If we choose to be consistent in waterway=* values, waterway=drain should
> be abandonned in favor of canal + appropriate usage=* values.
> Then we'll obtain waterway=canal for artificial waterways whatever their
> usage and waterway=river, stream and ditch for natural or not-lined
> watercourses.

In normal UK usage, a canal is (or was) navigable: that is the primary
purpose. A drain would normally be substantially smaller, and
non-navigable. No doubt there are exceptions probably in the Norfolk
Broads. But normally drains and canals are quite distinct, so it would
be unnatural in British English to remove drain.  Yes, I do realise that
the word canal is derived from channel.  That sort of usage still
applies in dentistry, as in a root-canal procedure.  But I digress from
waterways :-)

ael


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Re: Drain vs ditch

ael-3
In reply to this post by Tod Fitch
On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 11:03:29AM -0800, Tod Fitch wrote:
> Most of what I’d call a drain around here would be large underground pipes designed to carry storm water. Empty most of the time except perhaps for a trickle of water from various urban/suburban watering overflow. Used most of the time by raccoons, possums and rats as away to navigate through or shelter in an area without having to worry about being attacked by neighborhood dogs, though the larger ones could be attractive for adventuresome teenage boys to explore.

Same in UK: I forgot to mention them. The pipes serving domestic houses
and draining water from roads are all "drains", and by extension also
for the entrance grills in roads and the like. That includes sewers as
well. But I guess few of them would be mapped in OSM unless particularly
large or significant. Back to the point: it would be unnatural to tag
them as canals! Some might overlap with culverts?

ael


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Re: Drain vs ditch

François Lacombe-2
Some of them can also be designed to be pressurised while canals are all open flow waterways.
Then waterway=pressurised applies for pipes or tunnels where water flows with no air.

I doubt a lot about mandatory navigability of canals.
What about waterways intended to feed mills or fountains ?

François

Le ven. 11 janv. 2019 à 22:09, ael <[hidden email]> a écrit :
On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 11:03:29AM -0800, Tod Fitch wrote:
> Most of what I’d call a drain around here would be large underground pipes designed to carry storm water. Empty most of the time except perhaps for a trickle of water from various urban/suburban watering overflow. Used most of the time by raccoons, possums and rats as away to navigate through or shelter in an area without having to worry about being attacked by neighborhood dogs, though the larger ones could be attractive for adventuresome teenage boys to explore.

Same in UK: I forgot to mention them. The pipes serving domestic houses
and draining water from roads are all "drains", and by extension also
for the entrance grills in roads and the like. That includes sewers as
well. But I guess few of them would be mapped in OSM unless particularly
large or significant. Back to the point: it would be unnatural to tag
them as canals! Some might overlap with culverts?

ael


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Re: Drain vs ditch

Marc Gemis
In reply to this post by François Lacombe-2
On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 9:03 PM François Lacombe
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>

> Then we'll obtain waterway=canal for artificial waterways whatever their usage and waterway=river, stream and ditch for natural or not-lined watercourses.

The wiki page for ditch [1] explicitly states that it is an artificial waterway:

"Use waterway=ditch for simple narrow artificial waterways"


[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:waterway%3Dditch


regards

m.

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Re: Drain vs ditch

Graeme Fitzpatrick
In reply to this post by ael-3




On Sat, 12 Jan 2019 at 07:09, ael <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 11:03:29AM -0800, Tod Fitch wrote:
> Most of what I’d call a drain around here would be large underground pipes designed to carry storm water. Empty most of the time except perhaps for a trickle of water from various urban/suburban watering overflow. Used most of the time by raccoons, possums and rats as away to navigate through or shelter in an area without having to worry about being attacked by neighborhood dogs, though the larger ones could be attractive for adventuresome teenage boys to explore.

Same in UK: I forgot to mention them. The pipes serving domestic houses
and draining water from roads are all "drains", and by extension also
for the entrance grills in roads and the like. That includes sewers as
well. But I guess few of them would be mapped in OSM unless particularly
large or significant. Back to the point: it would be unnatural to tag
them as canals! Some might overlap with culverts?

Yep.

Stormwater drainage pipes take water from the house out to the gutter, where it runs down to the drain & eventually to a creek / lake / sea.

Canals are big things that can take boats, not little gutters for water.

If you're feeding water to a field, it's runs via an irrigation "channel".

Aren't mills usually fed from "The Old Mill Stream" :-)

& most fountains I know are either in the middle of a lake / pond, or fed by underground pipes.

So should we add gutter & channel to the list of features?

Thanks

Graeme

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Re: Drain vs ditch

Philip Barnes


On 11 January 2019 22:19:33 GMT, Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>Aren't mills usually fed from *"The Old Mill Stream"* :-)
>
They are usually called a mill race.

Phil (trigpoint)
--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

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Re: Drain vs ditch

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Markus-5


sent from a phone

> On 11. Jan 2019, at 17:45, Markus <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> A wiki page in non-English language should be a translation. Defining
> a tag differently is problematical as its meaning becomes diluted or
> worst gets lost.



+1, it is not helpful to cite non-English translations here on tagging. If these differ significantly they should be fixed rather than used to contribute to the confusion.


Cheers, Martin
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Re: Drain vs ditch

ael-3
In reply to this post by François Lacombe-2
On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 10:20:49PM +0100, François Lacombe wrote:
> I doubt a lot about mandatory navigability of canals.
> What about waterways intended to feed mills or fountains ?

As other have implied, these are not called canals in UK English: but
maybe there are exceptions. Mill streams or Mill races are the usual
terms. I am not familiar with any special terms for fountains: I would
expect a phrase like "piped supply" in most (underground) cases.

ael


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Re: Drain vs ditch

Eugene Podshivalov
In Belarus we have many canals which redirect part of a river flow into another river and they are much larger than ditches but are not navigable.
Also hen a stream is straightened you would call that a ditch, but when a river is straightened you would call it a canal.even if it is not navigable.
So to say a canal can be any size but carring useful water.

сб, 12 янв. 2019 г. в 13:26, ael <[hidden email]>:
On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 10:20:49PM +0100, François Lacombe wrote:
> I doubt a lot about mandatory navigability of canals.
> What about waterways intended to feed mills or fountains ?

As other have implied, these are not called canals in UK English: but
maybe there are exceptions. Mill streams or Mill races are the usual
terms. I am not familiar with any special terms for fountains: I would
expect a phrase like "piped supply" in most (underground) cases.

ael


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Re: Drain vs ditch

François Lacombe-2
In reply to this post by ael-3
Hi

Le sam. 12 janv. 2019 à 11:26, ael <[hidden email]> a écrit :
As other have implied, these are not called canals in UK English: but
maybe there are exceptions. Mill streams or Mill races are the usual
terms. I am not familiar with any special terms for fountains: I would
expect a phrase like "piped supply" in most (underground) cases.

The Oxford Dictionary includes irrigation in the purpose of a canal
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/canal

The millrace is implemented in OSM with two usage=* values :

That's two particular usages of some waterways including canal or pressurised waterways.

All the best

François

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Re: Drain vs ditch

Markus-5
In reply to this post by François Lacombe-2
On Fri, 11 Jan 2019 at 21:03, François Lacombe
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Regarding ditch, it regards both useful and waste water.

While true in English usage, waterway=drain apparently was intended
for artificial waterways removing undesirable water:

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-August/038505.html

See here for the whole discussion about 'How to tag small canals?'
from August 2018:

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-August/thread.html#38452

If you want to extend the meaning of waterway=drain to also include
artificial waterways, how do you intend to differentiate them from
waterway=canal?

Regards

Markus

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Re: Drain vs ditch

Eugene Podshivalov
The confusion is mainly in the difference between irrigation canals vs irrigation ditches and drainage diches vs drains.

In practice wide irrigation channels are called canals whereas small ones are called diches and people tend to tag them as such.
This tendency is enforced by the fact that canals and diches are rendered in difference size.
IMO there is no problem here, we should just document this usage properly.

Drainage diches and drains are confused simply because of their identical definition on the waterway wiki page
drain - An artificial free flow waterway used for carrying superfluous water like storm water...
ditch - An small artificial free flow waterway used for carrying superfluous water along paths or roads for drainage purposes

If I did not read their proper wiki pages I would think that they differ only in size with ditches being smaller than drains.
A tricky thing is that both drains and drainage ditches are used alog paths or roads but we call it a drain only when it is part of a system of collecting and disposing of rain water in an urban area as described at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storm_drain

So again we just need to properly document the meanings of these tags.

Eugene

сб, 12 янв. 2019 г. в 19:40, Markus <[hidden email]>:
On Fri, 11 Jan 2019 at 21:03, François Lacombe
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Regarding ditch, it regards both useful and waste water.

While true in English usage, waterway=drain apparently was intended
for artificial waterways removing undesirable water:

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-August/038505.html

See here for the whole discussion about 'How to tag small canals?'
from August 2018:

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-August/thread.html#38452

If you want to extend the meaning of waterway=drain to also include
artificial waterways, how do you intend to differentiate them from
waterway=canal?

Regards

Markus

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Re: Drain vs ditch

Peter Elderson
At what size is it that a ditch turns into a drain?

Vr gr Peter Elderson


Op di 15 jan. 2019 om 14:28 schreef Eugene Podshivalov <[hidden email]>:
The confusion is mainly in the difference between irrigation canals vs irrigation ditches and drainage diches vs drains.

In practice wide irrigation channels are called canals whereas small ones are called diches and people tend to tag them as such.
This tendency is enforced by the fact that canals and diches are rendered in difference size.
IMO there is no problem here, we should just document this usage properly.

Drainage diches and drains are confused simply because of their identical definition on the waterway wiki page
drain - An artificial free flow waterway used for carrying superfluous water like storm water...
ditch - An small artificial free flow waterway used for carrying superfluous water along paths or roads for drainage purposes

If I did not read their proper wiki pages I would think that they differ only in size with ditches being smaller than drains.
A tricky thing is that both drains and drainage ditches are used alog paths or roads but we call it a drain only when it is part of a system of collecting and disposing of rain water in an urban area as described at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storm_drain

So again we just need to properly document the meanings of these tags.

Eugene

сб, 12 янв. 2019 г. в 19:40, Markus <[hidden email]>:
On Fri, 11 Jan 2019 at 21:03, François Lacombe
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Regarding ditch, it regards both useful and waste water.

While true in English usage, waterway=drain apparently was intended
for artificial waterways removing undesirable water:

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-August/038505.html

See here for the whole discussion about 'How to tag small canals?'
from August 2018:

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-August/thread.html#38452

If you want to extend the meaning of waterway=drain to also include
artificial waterways, how do you intend to differentiate them from
waterway=canal?

Regards

Markus

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Re: Drain vs ditch

Paul Allen
On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 at 15:22, Peter Elderson <[hidden email]> wrote:
At what size is it that a ditch turns into a drain?

The same size that a boy turns into a man.  Or when  you line the boy with concrete.

--
Paul


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Re: Drain vs ditch

Tod Fitch

On Jan 15, 2019, at 7:28 AM, Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 at 15:22, Peter Elderson <[hidden email]> wrote:
At what size is it that a ditch turns into a drain?

The same size that a boy turns into a man.  Or when  you line the boy with concrete.


I assume “line the boy with concrete” to mean “line the ditch with concrete”.

There are a bunch of irrigation ditches in places like Arizona that are concrete lined simply to assure the water makes it to the field rather than soaking into the very dry ground under the ditch.

So my take would be size and “same size that a boy turns into a man” is probably a good way to describe the choice, i.e. judgement call by mapper.

Cheers!




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Re: Drain vs ditch

Paul Allen
On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 at 16:11, Tod Fitch <[hidden email]> wrote:

I assume “line the boy with concrete” to mean “line the ditch with concrete”.

Nope.  Of course, you can read it that way if you wish, but I have strange hobbies.

--
Paul


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Re: Drain vs ditch

Peter Elderson
In reply to this post by Tod Fitch
We Dutch are born tall and shrink after puberty, so we'll have to resort to age and maturity. In contrast, our drains and ditches (sloten en slootjes) are rejuvenated yearly, come in all sizes,  and make no difference between draining and irrigating. Also, they can be free flow but not necessarily, and if there is a flow it can be either way. 

Bonne chance, mappers!

Fr gr Peter Elderson


Op di 15 jan. 2019 om 17:11 schreef Tod Fitch <[hidden email]>:

On Jan 15, 2019, at 7:28 AM, Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 at 15:22, Peter Elderson <[hidden email]> wrote:
At what size is it that a ditch turns into a drain?

The same size that a boy turns into a man.  Or when  you line the boy with concrete.


I assume “line the boy with concrete” to mean “line the ditch with concrete”.

There are a bunch of irrigation ditches in places like Arizona that are concrete lined simply to assure the water makes it to the field rather than soaking into the very dry ground under the ditch.

So my take would be size and “same size that a boy turns into a man” is probably a good way to describe the choice, i.e. judgement call by mapper.

Cheers!



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