Drain vs ditch

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
127 messages Options
1234567
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Drain vs ditch

Graeme Fitzpatrick


On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 at 23:28, Eugene Podshivalov <[hidden email]> wrote:
The confusion is mainly in the difference between irrigation canals vs irrigation ditches and drainage diches vs drains.

In practice wide irrigation channels are called canals whereas small ones are called diches and people tend to tag them as such.
This tendency is enforced by the fact that canals and diches are rendered in difference size.
IMO there is no problem here, we should just document this usage properly.

Drainage diches and drains are confused simply because of their identical definition on the waterway wiki page
drain - An artificial free flow waterway used for carrying superfluous water like storm water...
ditch - An small artificial free flow waterway used for carrying superfluous water along paths or roads for drainage purposes

So, would we all be happy with redoing the various wiki pages along these lines:

=canal: 
current: Use waterway=canal for man-made open flow (free flow vs pipe flow) waterways used to carry useful water for transportation, hydro-power generation or irrigation purposes. 

suggested: Use waterway=canal for large man-made open flow (free flow vs pipe flow) waterways used to carry useful water, usually for transportation, but also for hydro-power generation or irrigation purposes

=drain
current: Use waterway=drain for artificial waterways, typically lined with concrete or similar, used to carry superfluous water like storm water or grey-discharge.

suggested: Use waterway=drain for artificial waterways, typically lined with concrete or similar, usually used to carry water for drainage or irrigation purposes.

=ditch
current: Use waterway=ditch for simple narrow artificial waterways used to drain nearby land, to remove storm-water or similar. Ditches are usually straight (as opposed to natural streams). They may contain little water or even be dry most of the year – to mark this intermittent=yes may be used.

suggested: Use waterway=ditch for simple narrow artificial waterways, typically unlined, usually used to remove storm-water or similar from nearby land. Ditches are usually straight (as opposed to natural streams). They may contain little water or even be dry most of the year – to mark this intermittent=yes may be used.

New category
=channel
Use waterway=channel for small man-made open flow waterways used to carry useful water, usually for irrigation purposes. Channels are usually straight, but can be either lined or unlined.

Would something like that clarify matters?

Thanks

Graeme

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Drain vs ditch

AlaskaDave
Graeme, I like the definitions you posted but why add "channel" to the list? When I think of a channel I think of a shipping lane or a dredged channel where ships with deeper drafts can pass through shallow water. From my online dictionary:

1. the bed of a stream, river, or other waterway.
2. Nautical: a navigable route between two bodies of water.
3. the deeper part of a waterway.

Although the 1st definition sort of agrees with your usage, the common definition in the U.S. is closer to the other two. There are several other definitions given but most of them are similar to those two. So it will be a bit confusing to use here in the U.S. but it's not a huge problem if it appears in the Wiki list of definitions.

On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 7:08 AM Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 at 23:28, Eugene Podshivalov <[hidden email]> wrote:
The confusion is mainly in the difference between irrigation canals vs irrigation ditches and drainage diches vs drains.

In practice wide irrigation channels are called canals whereas small ones are called diches and people tend to tag them as such.
This tendency is enforced by the fact that canals and diches are rendered in difference size.
IMO there is no problem here, we should just document this usage properly.

Drainage diches and drains are confused simply because of their identical definition on the waterway wiki page
drain - An artificial free flow waterway used for carrying superfluous water like storm water...
ditch - An small artificial free flow waterway used for carrying superfluous water along paths or roads for drainage purposes

So, would we all be happy with redoing the various wiki pages along these lines:

=canal: 
current: Use waterway=canal for man-made open flow (free flow vs pipe flow) waterways used to carry useful water for transportation, hydro-power generation or irrigation purposes. 

suggested: Use waterway=canal for large man-made open flow (free flow vs pipe flow) waterways used to carry useful water, usually for transportation, but also for hydro-power generation or irrigation purposes

=drain
current: Use waterway=drain for artificial waterways, typically lined with concrete or similar, used to carry superfluous water like storm water or grey-discharge.

suggested: Use waterway=drain for artificial waterways, typically lined with concrete or similar, usually used to carry water for drainage or irrigation purposes.

=ditch
current: Use waterway=ditch for simple narrow artificial waterways used to drain nearby land, to remove storm-water or similar. Ditches are usually straight (as opposed to natural streams). They may contain little water or even be dry most of the year – to mark this intermittent=yes may be used.

suggested: Use waterway=ditch for simple narrow artificial waterways, typically unlined, usually used to remove storm-water or similar from nearby land. Ditches are usually straight (as opposed to natural streams). They may contain little water or even be dry most of the year – to mark this intermittent=yes may be used.

New category
=channel
Use waterway=channel for small man-made open flow waterways used to carry useful water, usually for irrigation purposes. Channels are usually straight, but can be either lined or unlined.

Would something like that clarify matters?

Thanks

Graeme
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


--
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Drain vs ditch

Graeme Fitzpatrick

On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 10:28, Dave Swarthout <[hidden email]> wrote:

Although the 1st definition sort of agrees with your usage, the common definition in the U.S. is closer to the other two. There are several other definitions given but most of them are similar to those two. So it will be a bit confusing to use here in the U.S.

Now why does that amaze me! :-)

irrigation channel: passage dug in the ground and used for bringing water to land in order to make plants grow 

Thanks

Graeme

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Drain vs ditch

Warin
On 16/01/19 11:53, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:

On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 10:28, Dave Swarthout <[hidden email]> wrote:

Although the 1st definition sort of agrees with your usage, the common definition in the U.S. is closer to the other two. There are several other definitions given but most of them are similar to those two. So it will be a bit confusing to use here in the U.S.

Now why does that amaze me! :-)

irrigation channel: passage dug in the ground and used for bringing water to land in order to make plants grow 



OSM gives a distinction between river and stream.
There should be a similar distinction between 'drain' etc.
It should not be base on the flow of water as that could be hard to determine - especially if the water is off when mapping.

For example, 'a drain can be easily stepped over'?

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Drain vs ditch

Eugene Podshivalov
=drain
suggested: Use waterway=drain for artificial waterways, typically lined with concrete or similar, usually used to carry water for drainage or irrigation purposes.

=ditch
suggested: Use waterway=ditch for simple narrow artificial waterways, typically unlined, usually used to remove storm-water or similar from nearby land. Ditches are usually straight (as opposed to natural streams). They may contain little water or even be dry most of the year – to mark this intermittent=yes may be used.

I don't know if that was done on purpose of by mistake but these definitions are mixed up a bit. It is ditches that are used for irrigation, not drains.
I would suggest to define them as follows.

canal - large man-made open flow (free flow vs pipe flow) waterways used to carry useful water for transportation, hydro-power generation, irrigation or land drainage purposes. consider using waterway=ditch for small irrigation or land drainage channels. consider using waterway=drain for small lined superflous liquid drainage channels.

drain - small artificial free flow waterways usually lined with concrete or similar used for carrying away superflous liquid like rain water or industrial discharge. consider using waterway=ditch for unlined channels used to drain nearby land. consider using waterway=canal for large unlined land drainage channels.

ditch - small artificial free flow unlined waterways used for irrigating or draining land as well as for deviding land. consider using waterway=canal for large irrigation or land drainage channels. consider using waterway=drain for lined superflous liquid drainage channels.

No need to introduce any new tags.

Eugene

ср, 16 янв. 2019 г. в 05:12, Warin <[hidden email]>:
On 16/01/19 11:53, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:

On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 10:28, Dave Swarthout <[hidden email]> wrote:

Although the 1st definition sort of agrees with your usage, the common definition in the U.S. is closer to the other two. There are several other definitions given but most of them are similar to those two. So it will be a bit confusing to use here in the U.S.

Now why does that amaze me! :-)

irrigation channel: passage dug in the ground and used for bringing water to land in order to make plants grow 



OSM gives a distinction between river and stream.
There should be a similar distinction between 'drain' etc.
It should not be base on the flow of water as that could be hard to determine - especially if the water is off when mapping.

For example, 'a drain can be easily stepped over'?
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Drain vs ditch

AlaskaDave
Sounds good, Eugene. I like those descriptions.

On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 4:41 PM Eugene Podshivalov <[hidden email]> wrote:
=drain
suggested: Use waterway=drain for artificial waterways, typically lined with concrete or similar, usually used to carry water for drainage or irrigation purposes.

=ditch
suggested: Use waterway=ditch for simple narrow artificial waterways, typically unlined, usually used to remove storm-water or similar from nearby land. Ditches are usually straight (as opposed to natural streams). They may contain little water or even be dry most of the year – to mark this intermittent=yes may be used.

I don't know if that was done on purpose of by mistake but these definitions are mixed up a bit. It is ditches that are used for irrigation, not drains.
I would suggest to define them as follows.

canal - large man-made open flow (free flow vs pipe flow) waterways used to carry useful water for transportation, hydro-power generation, irrigation or land drainage purposes. consider using waterway=ditch for small irrigation or land drainage channels. consider using waterway=drain for small lined superflous liquid drainage channels.

drain - small artificial free flow waterways usually lined with concrete or similar used for carrying away superflous liquid like rain water or industrial discharge. consider using waterway=ditch for unlined channels used to drain nearby land. consider using waterway=canal for large unlined land drainage channels.

ditch - small artificial free flow unlined waterways used for irrigating or draining land as well as for deviding land. consider using waterway=canal for large irrigation or land drainage channels. consider using waterway=drain for lined superflous liquid drainage channels.

No need to introduce any new tags.

Eugene

ср, 16 янв. 2019 г. в 05:12, Warin <[hidden email]>:
On 16/01/19 11:53, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:

On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 10:28, Dave Swarthout <[hidden email]> wrote:

Although the 1st definition sort of agrees with your usage, the common definition in the U.S. is closer to the other two. There are several other definitions given but most of them are similar to those two. So it will be a bit confusing to use here in the U.S.

Now why does that amaze me! :-)

irrigation channel: passage dug in the ground and used for bringing water to land in order to make plants grow 



OSM gives a distinction between river and stream.
There should be a similar distinction between 'drain' etc.
It should not be base on the flow of water as that could be hard to determine - especially if the water is off when mapping.

For example, 'a drain can be easily stepped over'?
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


--
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Drain vs ditch

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Eugene Podshivalov


sent from a phone

> On 16. Jan 2019, at 10:39, Eugene Podshivalov <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> No need to introduce any new tags.


While I mostly agree with your interpretations, there are still some problems:
what about lined irrigation channels?

Can you jump over a drain or ditch? I find the jump over information well chosen for streams and most important property when actually walking in an area and trying to find a way through.

Somehow it is not satisfactory to distinguish irrigation from drainage for lined watercourses on the main level, but not for others (ditches and canals).

 I’d say the main issue is with “drain” because if we’d define it for irrigation as well it would be an oxymoron


Cheers, Martin
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Drain vs ditch

Eugene Podshivalov
Can you jump over a drain or ditch? I find the jump over information well chosen for streams and most important property when actually walking in an area and trying to find a way through.
In the place where I live drainage ditches are 1-5 meters wide and you can hardly jump over them. Even if they are 1m wide you would not risk jumping over them because they are located in wetland and have swampy banks. They usually have a lot of culverts to cross them over.

Somehow it is not satisfactory to distinguish irrigation from drainage for lined watercourses on the main level 
You are right, irrigation ditches can be lined along their way to a field but when on a field they may be unlined to let water soak into the land. Drainage ditches are always unlined because they collect water from land. Drains are always lined (or should be lined on good terms) because they carry liquid away without letting it soak into the ground.
If you find the above statements correct (I don't know, may be in other countries it works differently), then the "lined" characteristic lets you distingish between drainage ditches and drains easily. The only thing we need to resolve yet is to let irrigation ditches be linied. Here is how we can complement the definition of ditch to respect this.

ditch - Small artificial free flow waterways used for irrigating or draining land as well as for deviding land. Irrigation ditches can be lined or unlined, drainage ditches are usually unlined. Consider using waterway=canal for large irrigation or land drainage channels. Consider using waterway=drain for lined superflous liquid drainage channels.

PS: I'm not a native English speaker, so probably someone could formulate it in a more beautiful way.

Cheers, Eugene

ср, 16 янв. 2019 г. в 13:17, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]>:


sent from a phone

> On 16. Jan 2019, at 10:39, Eugene Podshivalov <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> No need to introduce any new tags.


While I mostly agree with your interpretations, there are still some problems:
what about lined irrigation channels?

Can you jump over a drain or ditch? I find the jump over information well chosen for streams and most important property when actually walking in an area and trying to find a way through.

Somehow it is not satisfactory to distinguish irrigation from drainage for lined watercourses on the main level, but not for others (ditches and canals).

 I’d say the main issue is with “drain” because if we’d define it for irrigation as well it would be an oxymoron


Cheers, Martin
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Drain vs ditch

Markus-5
On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 13:40, Eugene Podshivalov <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> ditch - Small artificial free flow waterways used for irrigating or draining land as well as for deviding land. Irrigation ditches can be lined or unlined, drainage ditches are usually unlined. Consider using waterway=canal for large irrigation or land drainage channels. Consider using waterway=drain for lined superflous liquid drainage channels.

I would even go one step further and abandon waterway=drain.

The question that still remains is: what does "small" and "large" mean?

Regards

Markus

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Drain vs ditch

Eugene Podshivalov
The question that still remains is: what does "small" and "large" mean?
I daresay there is no way and no need to clarify the meanings of "small" and "large" for artificial waterways. We can leave this up to the user to decide on it.  
Even the definition of a steam as "you can jump over it" is not really observed. You can jump over a 1-1.5 meter waterway but people are tagging 3 meter wide waterways as steams as well because otherwise there would be a big difference between the stream 1-1.5 and river 1.5-10 meter width ranges (waterways greater than 10m can already be mapped with waterbodies, so I don't mention them there).

In the place where I live drainage ditches and drains can be from 0.1 to 5 meters wide, and anything greater then that can be called a canal.

Cheers,
Eugene

вс, 20 янв. 2019 г. в 01:22, Markus <[hidden email]>:
On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 13:40, Eugene Podshivalov <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> ditch - Small artificial free flow waterways used for irrigating or draining land as well as for deviding land. Irrigation ditches can be lined or unlined, drainage ditches are usually unlined. Consider using waterway=canal for large irrigation or land drainage channels. Consider using waterway=drain for lined superflous liquid drainage channels.

I would even go one step further and abandon waterway=drain.

The question that still remains is: what does "small" and "large" mean?

Regards

Markus

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Drain vs ditch

Peter Elderson
Same here. Drains we don't have that much (almost none), but many many ditches of all sizes ('sloot') and canals of all sizes ('vaart', 'gracht', 'singel'). 
They carry and store water to and from the land: the whole system is designed to keep ground water levels fixed in dry times as well as wet times, no matter how extreme.  So the flow direction is not fixed and the waterways are used for land drainage, irrigation, fire brigades, drinking water for cattle, boats and canoes, dumping bodies, murder weapons and broken bikes, and at times, ice skating. No single dedicated use. 
The consequence of mapping all ditches as ways is that in z19 on OSM carto the land look almost water-less, while in z14 the amount of water looks much higher than it actually is. 



Vr gr Peter Elderson


Op do 24 jan. 2019 om 12:24 schreef Eugene Podshivalov <[hidden email]>:
The question that still remains is: what does "small" and "large" mean?
I daresay there is no way and no need to clarify the meanings of "small" and "large" for artificial waterways. We can leave this up to the user to decide on it.  
Even the definition of a steam as "you can jump over it" is not really observed. You can jump over a 1-1.5 meter waterway but people are tagging 3 meter wide waterways as steams as well because otherwise there would be a big difference between the stream 1-1.5 and river 1.5-10 meter width ranges (waterways greater than 10m can already be mapped with waterbodies, so I don't mention them there).

In the place where I live drainage ditches and drains can be from 0.1 to 5 meters wide, and anything greater then that can be called a canal.

Cheers,
Eugene

вс, 20 янв. 2019 г. в 01:22, Markus <[hidden email]>:
On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 13:40, Eugene Podshivalov <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> ditch - Small artificial free flow waterways used for irrigating or draining land as well as for deviding land. Irrigation ditches can be lined or unlined, drainage ditches are usually unlined. Consider using waterway=canal for large irrigation or land drainage channels. Consider using waterway=drain for lined superflous liquid drainage channels.

I would even go one step further and abandon waterway=drain.

The question that still remains is: what does "small" and "large" mean?

Regards

Markus

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Drain vs ditch

Eugene Podshivalov
When drain and ditch were originally introduced, was it supposed to differentiate them in size?
If you read the current definitions closely you can notice the following:

ditch - An small artificial free flow waterway used for carrying superfluous water along paths or roads for drainage purposes.

See also - waterway=drain: for larger artificial waterways used for the drainage purposes, and typically lined with concrete or similar

Cheers,
Eugene


чт, 24 янв. 2019 г. в 14:57, Peter Elderson <[hidden email]>:
Same here. Drains we don't have that much (almost none), but many many ditches of all sizes ('sloot') and canals of all sizes ('vaart', 'gracht', 'singel'). 
They carry and store water to and from the land: the whole system is designed to keep ground water levels fixed in dry times as well as wet times, no matter how extreme.  So the flow direction is not fixed and the waterways are used for land drainage, irrigation, fire brigades, drinking water for cattle, boats and canoes, dumping bodies, murder weapons and broken bikes, and at times, ice skating. No single dedicated use. 
The consequence of mapping all ditches as ways is that in z19 on OSM carto the land look almost water-less, while in z14 the amount of water looks much higher than it actually is. 



Vr gr Peter Elderson


Op do 24 jan. 2019 om 12:24 schreef Eugene Podshivalov <[hidden email]>:
The question that still remains is: what does "small" and "large" mean?
I daresay there is no way and no need to clarify the meanings of "small" and "large" for artificial waterways. We can leave this up to the user to decide on it.  
Even the definition of a steam as "you can jump over it" is not really observed. You can jump over a 1-1.5 meter waterway but people are tagging 3 meter wide waterways as steams as well because otherwise there would be a big difference between the stream 1-1.5 and river 1.5-10 meter width ranges (waterways greater than 10m can already be mapped with waterbodies, so I don't mention them there).

In the place where I live drainage ditches and drains can be from 0.1 to 5 meters wide, and anything greater then that can be called a canal.

Cheers,
Eugene

вс, 20 янв. 2019 г. в 01:22, Markus <[hidden email]>:
On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 13:40, Eugene Podshivalov <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> ditch - Small artificial free flow waterways used for irrigating or draining land as well as for deviding land. Irrigation ditches can be lined or unlined, drainage ditches are usually unlined. Consider using waterway=canal for large irrigation or land drainage channels. Consider using waterway=drain for lined superflous liquid drainage channels.

I would even go one step further and abandon waterway=drain.

The question that still remains is: what does "small" and "large" mean?

Regards

Markus

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Drain vs ditch

Paul Allen
On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 at 10:37, Eugene Podshivalov <[hidden email]> wrote:
When drain and ditch were originally introduced, was it supposed to differentiate them in size?
If you read the current definitions closely you can notice the following:
[...]

My guess is that this is a practical matter rather than a definitional one.  If you need
a large channel with a lot of water flow (even intermittently) then you're probably
going to line it with concrete.  And if it's a narrow channel with lower water flow
you're probably not going to bother with the concrete.  Particularly if it's for drainage
where you want the groundwater to seep into the channel.

Maybe reword the descrtiptions:  "Typically unlined, smaller" and "typically lined, larger."

--
Paul

 

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Drain vs ditch

Eugene Podshivalov
How to we proceed with this topic? Should a proposal be created or the wiki pages can be updated straight away by someone or myself based on this discussion?

Cheers,
Eugene

вс, 27 янв. 2019 г. в 17:22, Paul Allen <[hidden email]>:
On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 at 10:37, Eugene Podshivalov <[hidden email]> wrote:
When drain and ditch were originally introduced, was it supposed to differentiate them in size?
If you read the current definitions closely you can notice the following:
[...]

My guess is that this is a practical matter rather than a definitional one.  If you need
a large channel with a lot of water flow (even intermittently) then you're probably
going to line it with concrete.  And if it's a narrow channel with lower water flow
you're probably not going to bother with the concrete.  Particularly if it's for drainage
where you want the groundwater to seep into the channel.

Maybe reword the descrtiptions:  "Typically unlined, smaller" and "typically lined, larger."

--
Paul

 
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Drain vs ditch

marc marc
Le 29.01.19 à 16:13, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
> How to we proceed with this topic? Should a proposal be created or the
> wiki pages can be updated straight away by someone or myself based on
> this discussion?

maybe it's a good idea to write a small-summary-only post
to check if there is a consensus on this, because there are probably
many participants who have dropped out given the number of emails that
the subject has generated
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Drain vs ditch

Eugene Podshivalov
Here is a summary of the discussion to check if there is a consensus.

Current definitions of artificial waterways are unclear and ambiguous. Some people assume that ditch and drain differ mainly in size, others differentiate them mainly on liquid type (can or cannot carry industrial discharge), others rely on lined or unlined characteristic.

It is suggested to resolve the ambiguities by updating the definitions as follows.

canal - Large man-made open flow (free flow vs pipe flow) waterways used to carry useful water for transportation, hydro-power generation, irrigation or land drainage purposes. Consider using waterway=ditch for small irrigation or land drainage channels. Consider using waterway=drain for small usually lined superflous liquid drainage channels.

drain - Small artificial free flow waterways usually lined with concrete or similar used for carrying away superflous liquid like rain water or industrial discharge without letting it soak into the ground. Consider using waterway=ditch for unlined channels used to drain nearby wet land. Consider using waterway=canal for large unlined land drainage channels.

ditch - Small artificial free flow waterways used for irrigating dry land or draining wet land. Irrigation ditches can be lined or unlined, drainage ditches are usually unlined to let water soak through the land into them. Ditches may have short lined segments at waterway turning points or intersections with roads or paths to prevent erosion. Consider using waterway=canal for large irrigation or land drainage channels. Consider using waterway=drain for usually lined superflous liquid drainage channels.

Cheers,
Eugene

вт, 29 янв. 2019 г. в 18:32, marc marc <[hidden email]>:
Le 29.01.19 à 16:13, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
> How to we proceed with this topic? Should a proposal be created or the
> wiki pages can be updated straight away by someone or myself based on
> this discussion?

maybe it's a good idea to write a small-summary-only post
to check if there is a consensus on this, because there are probably
many participants who have dropped out given the number of emails that
the subject has generated
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Drain vs ditch

Joseph Eisenberg
Those descriptions look good
On Wed, Jan 30, 2019 at 5:58 PM Eugene Podshivalov <[hidden email]> wrote:
Here is a summary of the discussion to check if there is a consensus.

Current definitions of artificial waterways are unclear and ambiguous. Some people assume that ditch and drain differ mainly in size, others differentiate them mainly on liquid type (can or cannot carry industrial discharge), others rely on lined or unlined characteristic.

It is suggested to resolve the ambiguities by updating the definitions as follows.

canal - Large man-made open flow (free flow vs pipe flow) waterways used to carry useful water for transportation, hydro-power generation, irrigation or land drainage purposes. Consider using waterway=ditch for small irrigation or land drainage channels. Consider using waterway=drain for small usually lined superflous liquid drainage channels.

drain - Small artificial free flow waterways usually lined with concrete or similar used for carrying away superflous liquid like rain water or industrial discharge without letting it soak into the ground. Consider using waterway=ditch for unlined channels used to drain nearby wet land. Consider using waterway=canal for large unlined land drainage channels.

ditch - Small artificial free flow waterways used for irrigating dry land or draining wet land. Irrigation ditches can be lined or unlined, drainage ditches are usually unlined to let water soak through the land into them. Ditches may have short lined segments at waterway turning points or intersections with roads or paths to prevent erosion. Consider using waterway=canal for large irrigation or land drainage channels. Consider using waterway=drain for usually lined superflous liquid drainage channels.

Cheers,
Eugene

вт, 29 янв. 2019 г. в 18:32, marc marc <[hidden email]>:
Le 29.01.19 à 16:13, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
> How to we proceed with this topic? Should a proposal be created or the
> wiki pages can be updated straight away by someone or myself based on
> this discussion?

maybe it's a good idea to write a small-summary-only post
to check if there is a consensus on this, because there are probably
many participants who have dropped out given the number of emails that
the subject has generated
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Drain vs ditch

Warin
In reply to this post by Eugene Podshivalov
Large means?
Small means?

To me I'd use small = I can step over it, large means I cannot step over it .. so ~1.1 metres is the line between the two.

On 30/01/19 19:56, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
Here is a summary of the discussion to check if there is a consensus.

Current definitions of artificial waterways are unclear and ambiguous. Some people assume that ditch and drain differ mainly in size, others differentiate them mainly on liquid type (can or cannot carry industrial discharge), others rely on lined or unlined characteristic.

It is suggested to resolve the ambiguities by updating the definitions as follows.

canal - Large man-made open flow (free flow vs pipe flow) waterways used to carry useful water for transportation, hydro-power generation, irrigation or land drainage purposes. Consider using waterway=ditch for small irrigation or land drainage channels. Consider using waterway=drain for small usually lined superflous liquid drainage channels.

drain - Small artificial free flow waterways usually lined with concrete or similar used for carrying away superflous liquid like rain water or industrial discharge without letting it soak into the ground. Consider using waterway=ditch for unlined channels used to drain nearby wet land. Consider using waterway=canal for large unlined land drainage channels.

ditch - Small artificial free flow waterways used for irrigating dry land or draining wet land. Irrigation ditches can be lined or unlined, drainage ditches are usually unlined to let water soak through the land into them. Ditches may have short lined segments at waterway turning points or intersections with roads or paths to prevent erosion. Consider using waterway=canal for large irrigation or land drainage channels. Consider using waterway=drain for usually lined superflous liquid drainage channels.

Cheers,
Eugene

вт, 29 янв. 2019 г. в 18:32, marc marc <[hidden email]>:
Le 29.01.19 à 16:13, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
> How to we proceed with this topic? Should a proposal be created or the
> wiki pages can be updated straight away by someone or myself based on
> this discussion?

maybe it's a good idea to write a small-summary-only post
to check if there is a consensus on this, because there are probably
many participants who have dropped out given the number of emails that
the subject has generated
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging



_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Drain vs ditch

Eugene Podshivalov
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg
ср, 30 янв. 2019 г. в 13:02, Warin <[hidden email]>:
Large means?
Small means?

To me I'd use small = I can step over it, large means I cannot step over it .. so ~1.1 metres is the line between the two. 
Drains and ditches can be 0.1 to 5 metres wide. You can hardly step over a 2-5 metre wide ditch, can you? Anything greater than that can be called a canal. 
So I would leave this up to the user to decide on.

Cheers,
Eugene


ср, 30 янв. 2019 г. в 13:04, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]>:
Those descriptions look good
On Wed, Jan 30, 2019 at 5:58 PM Eugene Podshivalov <[hidden email]> wrote:
Here is a summary of the discussion to check if there is a consensus.

Current definitions of artificial waterways are unclear and ambiguous. Some people assume that ditch and drain differ mainly in size, others differentiate them mainly on liquid type (can or cannot carry industrial discharge), others rely on lined or unlined characteristic.

It is suggested to resolve the ambiguities by updating the definitions as follows.

canal - Large man-made open flow (free flow vs pipe flow) waterways used to carry useful water for transportation, hydro-power generation, irrigation or land drainage purposes. Consider using waterway=ditch for small irrigation or land drainage channels. Consider using waterway=drain for small usually lined superflous liquid drainage channels.

drain - Small artificial free flow waterways usually lined with concrete or similar used for carrying away superflous liquid like rain water or industrial discharge without letting it soak into the ground. Consider using waterway=ditch for unlined channels used to drain nearby wet land. Consider using waterway=canal for large unlined land drainage channels.

ditch - Small artificial free flow waterways used for irrigating dry land or draining wet land. Irrigation ditches can be lined or unlined, drainage ditches are usually unlined to let water soak through the land into them. Ditches may have short lined segments at waterway turning points or intersections with roads or paths to prevent erosion. Consider using waterway=canal for large irrigation or land drainage channels. Consider using waterway=drain for usually lined superflous liquid drainage channels.

Cheers,
Eugene

вт, 29 янв. 2019 г. в 18:32, marc marc <[hidden email]>:
Le 29.01.19 à 16:13, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
> How to we proceed with this topic? Should a proposal be created or the
> wiki pages can be updated straight away by someone or myself based on
> this discussion?

maybe it's a good idea to write a small-summary-only post
to check if there is a consensus on this, because there are probably
many participants who have dropped out given the number of emails that
the subject has generated
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Drain vs ditch

Markus-5
In reply to this post by Eugene Podshivalov
Hi Eugene

Thanks for your summary! [^1] I'm in favour of the proposed
definitions and would welcome if the clarifications regarding size you
made here [^2] were included in the definitions, like for example
(*additions*, ~~deletions~~):

canal - Large man-made open flow (free flow vs pipe flow) waterways
used to carry useful water for transportation, hydro-power generation,
irrigation or land drainage purposes. Consider using waterway=ditch
for small*er* ~~irrigation or land drainage~~ channels *that directly
distribute water to or collect it form the land*. Consider using
waterway=drain for small usually lined superflous liquid drainage
channels.

ditch - Small artificial free flow waterways *used to directly
distribute water to dry land (for irrigation) or collect water from
wet land (for drainage)* ~~used for irrigating dry land or draining
wet land~~. Irrigation ditches can be lined or unlined, drainage
ditches are usually unlined to let water soak through the land into
them. Ditches may have short lined segments at waterway turning points
or intersections with roads or paths to prevent erosion. Consider
using waterway=canal for large*r* ~~irrigation or land drainage~~
channels *that convey water from or to ditches*. Consider using
waterway=drain for usually lined superflous liquid drainage channels.

[^1]: <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2019-January/042543.html>
[^2]: <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2019-January/042551.html>

Regards

Markus

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
1234567