Drain vs ditch

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Re: Drain vs ditch

Eugene Podshivalov
Hi Markus,
I find your amendments great.

Cheers,
Eugene

чт, 31 янв. 2019 г. в 20:29, Markus <[hidden email]>:
Hi Eugene

Thanks for your summary! [^1] I'm in favour of the proposed
definitions and would welcome if the clarifications regarding size you
made here [^2] were included in the definitions, like for example
(*additions*, ~~deletions~~):

canal - Large man-made open flow (free flow vs pipe flow) waterways
used to carry useful water for transportation, hydro-power generation,
irrigation or land drainage purposes. Consider using waterway=ditch
for small*er* ~~irrigation or land drainage~~ channels *that directly
distribute water to or collect it form the land*. Consider using
waterway=drain for small usually lined superflous liquid drainage
channels.

ditch - Small artificial free flow waterways *used to directly
distribute water to dry land (for irrigation) or collect water from
wet land (for drainage)* ~~used for irrigating dry land or draining
wet land~~. Irrigation ditches can be lined or unlined, drainage
ditches are usually unlined to let water soak through the land into
them. Ditches may have short lined segments at waterway turning points
or intersections with roads or paths to prevent erosion. Consider
using waterway=canal for large*r* ~~irrigation or land drainage~~
channels *that convey water from or to ditches*. Consider using
waterway=drain for usually lined superflous liquid drainage channels.

[^1]: <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2019-January/042543.html>
[^2]: <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2019-January/042551.html>

Regards

Markus

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Re: Drain vs ditch

Sergio Manzi

Yes, great descriptions!

My only marginal objection is for canal: why don't you ditch (pun intended...) the "used to carry useful water for transportation, hydro-power generation, irrigation or land drainage purposes" clause?

Are there any other "Large man-made open flow (free flow vs pipe flow) waterways" that should not be considered canals?

My concern is that somewhere in the world there could be a canal not built for any of those purposes and somebody could object to call it "a canal".

Also isn't "land drainage" potentially in contradiction with "useful water"?

Cheers,

Sergio


On 2019-01-31 23:34, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
Hi Markus,
I find your amendments great.

Cheers,
Eugene

чт, 31 янв. 2019 г. в 20:29, Markus <[hidden email]>:
Hi Eugene

Thanks for your summary! [^1] I'm in favour of the proposed
definitions and would welcome if the clarifications regarding size you
made here [^2] were included in the definitions, like for example
(*additions*, ~~deletions~~):

canal - Large man-made open flow (free flow vs pipe flow) waterways
used to carry useful water for transportation, hydro-power generation,
irrigation or land drainage purposes. Consider using waterway=ditch
for small*er* ~~irrigation or land drainage~~ channels *that directly
distribute water to or collect it form the land*. Consider using
waterway=drain for small usually lined superflous liquid drainage
channels.

ditch - Small artificial free flow waterways *used to directly
distribute water to dry land (for irrigation) or collect water from
wet land (for drainage)* ~~used for irrigating dry land or draining
wet land~~. Irrigation ditches can be lined or unlined, drainage
ditches are usually unlined to let water soak through the land into
them. Ditches may have short lined segments at waterway turning points
or intersections with roads or paths to prevent erosion. Consider
using waterway=canal for large*r* ~~irrigation or land drainage~~
channels *that convey water from or to ditches*. Consider using
waterway=drain for usually lined superflous liquid drainage channels.

[^1]: <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2019-January/042543.html>
[^2]: <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2019-January/042551.html>

Regards

Markus

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Re: Drain vs ditch

Warin
It appears in the descriptions that a 'ditch' can be used as a 'drain'. So why have a tag 'drain'?

The only differences I have between canal and the other things is large verse small and usefull quantity.
Rather subjective, not a objective measurement. If the differences as so arbitrary why distinguish between them at all?

On 01/02/19 09:45, Sergio Manzi wrote:

Yes, great descriptions!

My only marginal objection is for canal: why don't you ditch (pun intended...) the "used to carry useful water for transportation, hydro-power generation, irrigation or land drainage purposes" clause?

Are there any other "Large man-made open flow (free flow vs pipe flow) waterways" that should not be considered canals?

My concern is that somewhere in the world there could be a canal not built for any of those purposes and somebody could object to call it "a canal".

Also isn't "land drainage" potentially in contradiction with "useful water"?

Cheers,

Sergio


On 2019-01-31 23:34, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
Hi Markus,
I find your amendments great.

Cheers,
Eugene

чт, 31 янв. 2019 г. в 20:29, Markus <[hidden email]>:
Hi Eugene

Thanks for your summary! [^1] I'm in favour of the proposed
definitions and would welcome if the clarifications regarding size you
made here [^2] were included in the definitions, like for example
(*additions*, ~~deletions~~):

canal - Large man-made open flow (free flow vs pipe flow) waterways
used to carry useful water for transportation, hydro-power generation,
irrigation or land drainage purposes. Consider using waterway=ditch
for small*er* ~~irrigation or land drainage~~ channels *that directly
distribute water to or collect it form the land*. Consider using
waterway=drain for small usually lined superflous liquid drainage
channels.

ditch - Small artificial free flow waterways *used to directly
distribute water to dry land (for irrigation) or collect water from
wet land (for drainage)* ~~used for irrigating dry land or draining
wet land~~. Irrigation ditches can be lined or unlined, drainage
ditches are usually unlined to let water soak through the land into
them. Ditches may have short lined segments at waterway turning points
or intersections with roads or paths to prevent erosion. Consider
using waterway=canal for large*r* ~~irrigation or land drainage~~
channels *that convey water from or to ditches*. Consider using
waterway=drain for usually lined superflous liquid drainage channels.

[^1]: <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2019-January/042543.html>
[^2]: <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2019-January/042551.html>

Regards

Markus

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Re: Drain vs ditch

Markus-5
In reply to this post by Sergio Manzi
Ciao Sergio,

On Thu, 31 Jan 2019 at 23:46, Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> My only marginal objection is for canal: why don't you ditch (pun intended...) the "used to carry useful water for transportation, hydro-power generation, irrigation or land drainage purposes" clause?
>
> Are there any other "Large man-made open flow (free flow vs pipe flow) waterways" that should not be considered canals?
>
> My concern is that somewhere in the world there could be a canal not built for any of those purposes and somebody could object to call it "a canal".

I would leave the canal uses (transportation, hydro-power generation,
irrigation or land drainage) for clarification – otherwise
waterway=canal were again mainly differentiated form
waterway=ditch/drain by size, which we wanted to avoid because it is
arbitrary. Possible other canal uses can still be added later.

> Also isn't "land drainage" potentially in contradiction with "useful water"?

Yes, you're right, *useful* should be removed.

Regards

Markus

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Re: Drain vs ditch

Markus-5
In reply to this post by Warin
On Fri, 1 Feb 2019 at 02:51, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> It appears in the descriptions that a 'ditch' can be used as a 'drain'. So why have a tag 'drain'?

I wouldn't oppose.

> The only differences I have between canal and the other things is large verse small and usefull quantity.
> Rather subjective, not a objective measurement. If the differences as so arbitrary why distinguish between them at all?

It's not just size, it's also conveyance vs direct distribution or
collection, similar to power=line vs power=minor_line.

Regards

Markus

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Re: Drain vs ditch

Graeme Fitzpatrick
In reply to this post by Warin
On Fri, 1 Feb 2019 at 11:51, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:
It appears in the descriptions that a 'ditch' can be used as a 'drain'. So why have a tag 'drain'?

Really only to differentiate between lined & unlined, which I think may be important / needed?

Thanks

Graeme

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Re: Drain vs ditch

Hufkratzer
In reply to this post by Warin
On 01.02.2019 02:50 Warin wrote:
It appears in the descriptions that a 'ditch' can be used as a 'drain'. So why have a tag 'drain'?

Only if the water comes from wet land, not when it is industrial discharge
(compare https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2019-January/042543.html )

Virenfrei. www.avast.com

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Re: Drain vs ditch

Peter Elderson
In reply to this post by Warin
To map drains that are not ditches?

Mvg Peter Elderson

> Op 1 feb. 2019 om 02:50 heeft Warin <[hidden email]> het volgende geschreven:
>
> It appears in the descriptions that a 'ditch' can be used as a 'drain'. So why have a tag 'drain'?

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Re: Drain vs ditch

Sergio Manzi
In reply to this post by Graeme Fitzpatrick

If you think it is important to differentiate between lined vs. unlined minor waterways (and I'm not objecting to that), I guess the best option would be to use a specific tag (lined=* ?)

IMHO relying on the tagger knowledge of the OSM dictionary semantic subtleties (which sometimes happen to collide with other English dictionaries) is a bit too optimistic.

Sergio


On 2019-02-01 22:50, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
On Fri, 1 Feb 2019 at 11:51, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:
It appears in the descriptions that a 'ditch' can be used as a 'drain'. So why have a tag 'drain'?

Really only to differentiate between lined & unlined, which I think may be important / needed?

Thanks

Graeme

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Re: Drain vs ditch

Paul Allen
On Fri, 1 Feb 2019 at 22:09, Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]> wrote:

If you think it is important to differentiate between lined vs. unlined minor waterways (and I'm not objecting to that), I guess the best option would be to use a specific tag (lined=* ?)

As I understand it, Ordnance Survey maps in the UK make a distinction between ditches
and drains.  Of course, printed maps don't have the luxury of sub-tags, so we don't have
to use ditch and drain just because OS does.  However, ditch and drain are already
established.

--
Paul


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Re: Drain vs ditch

Sergio Manzi

I'm pretty sure that's the case in UK, but are you willing to bet on all drains (e.g. industrial) of the world being lined?

On 2019-02-01 23:22, Paul Allen wrote:
On Fri, 1 Feb 2019 at 22:09, Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]> wrote:

If you think it is important to differentiate between lined vs. unlined minor waterways (and I'm not objecting to that), I guess the best option would be to use a specific tag (lined=* ?)

As I understand it, Ordnance Survey maps in the UK make a distinction between ditches
and drains.  Of course, printed maps don't have the luxury of sub-tags, so we don't have
to use ditch and drain just because OS does.  However, ditch and drain are already
established.

--
Paul

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Re: Drain vs ditch

Paul Allen
On Fri, 1 Feb 2019 at 22:29, Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]> wrote:

I'm pretty sure that's the case in UK, but are you willing to bet on all drains (e.g. industrial) of the world being lined?

I wouldn't bet on that one.  However, OSM uses British English terminology.

Then again, I would hope an industrial drain would be lined.  I'm not too worried about rainwater
or the drainage from fields leaking onto other land.  Wastewater from industrial processes would
be another matter.

--
Paul


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Re: Drain vs ditch

Eugene Podshivalov
In reply to this post by Sergio Manzi
Here are some pictures to make the difference between drainage ditches and drain clear.
Drainage ditches:



Drains





Cheers,
Eugene

сб, 2 февр. 2019 г. в 01:29, Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]>:

I'm pretty sure that's the case in UK, but are you willing to bet on all drains (e.g. industrial) of the world being lined?

On 2019-02-01 23:22, Paul Allen wrote:
On Fri, 1 Feb 2019 at 22:09, Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]> wrote:

If you think it is important to differentiate between lined vs. unlined minor waterways (and I'm not objecting to that), I guess the best option would be to use a specific tag (lined=* ?)

As I understand it, Ordnance Survey maps in the UK make a distinction between ditches
and drains.  Of course, printed maps don't have the luxury of sub-tags, so we don't have
to use ditch and drain just because OS does.  However, ditch and drain are already
established.

--
Paul
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Re: Drain vs ditch

Paul Allen
On Fri, 1 Feb 2019 at 22:37, Eugene Podshivalov <[hidden email]> wrote:
Here are some pictures to make the difference between drainage ditches and drain clear.
Drainage ditches:
image.png
image.png

Drains
image.png
image.png
image.png
image.png

They all look the same to me.

I think the mailing list filters out attachments.  You'll have to provide links.

--
Paul


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Re: Drain vs ditch

Sergio Manzi
In reply to this post by Paul Allen

Right in these days you can read in the Italian newspapers of an industry having contaminated with industrial sewage an area inhabited by 300.000...

And let's not get started with what we "westerns" normally call "the third world"...

So, how do you tag drains which are not lined?


On 2019-02-01 23:34, Paul Allen wrote:
Then again, I would hope an industrial drain would be lined.

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Re: Drain vs ditch

Paul Allen
On Fri, 1 Feb 2019 at 22:43, Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]> wrote:
So, how do you tag drains which are not lined?

Ditch.   Because, physically, that's what it is.

--
Paul


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Re: Drain vs ditch

Eugene Podshivalov

сб, 2 февр. 2019 г. в 01:47, Paul Allen <[hidden email]>:
On Fri, 1 Feb 2019 at 22:43, Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]> wrote:
So, how do you tag drains which are not lined?

Ditch.   Because, physically, that's what it is.

--
Paul

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Re: Drain vs ditch

Sergio Manzi
In reply to this post by Paul Allen

Please point me to a dictionary defining "drain" as a "lined ditch" or in any way stating that a drain must be lined, because I tried and I failed.

Best I found is in dictionary.com  that (under "Physical Geography") define it as

  1. an artificial watercourse, as a ditch or trench.
  2. a natural watercourse modified to increase its flow of water.

On 2019-02-01 23:46, Paul Allen wrote:
On Fri, 1 Feb 2019 at 22:43, Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]> wrote:
So, how do you tag drains which are not lined?

Ditch.   Because, physically, that's what it is.

--
Paul


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Re: Drain vs ditch

Joseph Eisenberg
Dictionary.com usually provides definitions in American English, so it wouldn’t be a good source.

On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 8:35 AM Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]> wrote:

Please point me to a dictionary defining "drain" as a "lined ditch" or in any way stating that a drain must be lined, because I tried and I failed.

Best I found is in dictionary.com  that (under "Physical Geography") define it as

  1. an artificial watercourse, as a ditch or trench.
  2. a natural watercourse modified to increase its flow of water.

On 2019-02-01 23:46, Paul Allen wrote:
On Fri, 1 Feb 2019 at 22:43, Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]> wrote:
So, how do you tag drains which are not lined?

Ditch.   Because, physically, that's what it is.

--
Paul


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Re: Drain vs ditch

Sergio Manzi

I know, that's why I asked for a good one...

On 2019-02-02 01:23, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
Dictionary.com usually provides definitions in American English, so it wouldn’t be a good source.

On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 8:35 AM Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]> wrote:

Please point me to a dictionary defining "drain" as a "lined ditch" or in any way stating that a drain must be lined, because I tried and I failed.

Best I found is in dictionary.com  that (under "Physical Geography") define it as

  1. an artificial watercourse, as a ditch or trench.
  2. a natural watercourse modified to increase its flow of water.

On 2019-02-01 23:46, Paul Allen wrote:
On Fri, 1 Feb 2019 at 22:43, Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]> wrote:
So, how do you tag drains which are not lined?

Ditch.   Because, physically, that's what it is.

--
Paul


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