Drain vs. ditch

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Drain vs. ditch

Tagging mailing list
I would rather add a specific section in the wiki page about width with the explanations you just provided to make the point clear once for all.

> Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 18:28:50 +0300
> From: Eugene Podshivalov [hidden email]
> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
> [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Drain vs. ditch
> Message-ID:
> CAEPw1JWMFcpquKJzE4Wp4_r4V6F=[hidden email]
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> There are words in the language which let you distinguish natural waterways
> by size, e.g. brook -> stream -> river.
> The artifical waterways on the contrary are distinguished maily by usage,
> rather than by size:
> canal - carry useful water
> ditch - melioration chanals which are in contact with the land (soak water
> from or into land)
> drain - carry away superfluous liquid (and hence are usually lined).
>
> Canals due to their purpose are usually but not necesserily large, e.g.
> some canals in hydro-power generation can be just a couple of meters wide.
> Drains and ditches again due to their purpose are usually small.
> The only point at which "size" is in the play is when drainage ditches flow
> into a larger channel which eventually carries the water away from a field
> or when a large channel brings water to a field and distributes it between
> irrigation ditches. These large waterways can be called canals probably
> because they get some kind of "useful" connotation.
>
> Maybe we need to delete the "large" and "small" words from the beginning of
> definitions at all?
>
> Cheers,
> Eugene

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Re: Drain vs. ditch

EthnicFood IsGreat


I would not call picture #4 a drain.  Maybe in a very general sense. 
The part carrying the water is more specifically called a "gutter" (at
least in the US), and the structure the water is draining into is called
an "inlet."  And I would call picture #5 a "culvert."  There is already
an established tag for that.

Mark




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Re: Drain vs. ditch

EthnicFood IsGreat
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> Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2019 11:20:01 +0100
> From: Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch
>
>
> Thank-you for confirming that, Mark.
>
> Personally I think we, in OSM, should stop with this folly of overloading English words with meanings they do not have in *any *dictionary (be it AmE, BrE, CaE, or whatever).
>
> Both the "ditch" and "drain" words *can *be used to describe certain features in English. The difference is essentially an etymological one, with one related to the *process *of excavation (dig -> ditch) and the other to the *function *of carrying liquids away (dry -> drain).
>
> If we want to precisely map certain characteristics of a feature we should do it explicitly through a *correct data model* that takes into consideration the particular aspect we are trying to communicate. We want to communicate the information that a (small) waterway is lined with concrete? Just say that with an appropriate tag, like e.g. lined=*, or lining=*. We want to communicate the information that a (small) waterway is used to carry waste water away? Once again, let's say that with an appropriate tag, like e.g. usage=* (/please ignore if the specific tags I put in the examples are not of your liking: not the point here, let's discuss that later.../).
>
> Arbitrarily overloading words with meanings they do not have in the common language is just a perfect way to Babel, that is a reduction in information.
>
> Sergio
>
> [...]

I tend to agree.  Sometimes I feel these endless debates on trying to decide the meaning of tags is like reinventing the wheel (reinventing the definition).

Mark



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Re: Drain vs. ditch

EthnicFood IsGreat
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> Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2019 14:22:20 +0100
> From: Hufkratzer <[hidden email]>
> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
> <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch
>
>
> If we were discussing a proposal I would agree, but replacing
> waterway=drain by waterway=ditch + usage=drainage or sth. like that is
> not such an easy task.  We already have 800k drains. I assume it
> requires a proposal with volting to deprecate drain, adaption of the
> presets, perhaps a mass edit. Who will do all this? Is the advantage of
> using waterway=ditch + usage=drainage instead of waterway=drain so
> immense that it is worth the effort?
>
> [...]


This goes to the very core of the tagging policy of OSM.  The current
state of OSM tags is a screwed up mess.  Because we are "prohibited"
from going back in time and correcting bad tagging decisions that were
made in the past, we are stuck with trying to shoehorn new tag
definitions into a chaotic, disorganized system. The way I see it, if we
were allowed to conduct mass edits to revise poorly-planned tagging
choices, we would save ourselves a lot of trouble in the long run.  It
would be painful at first, adjusting to the changes, but I think it
would be worth it.  Don't we all agree that if we were starting all over
from scratch, we would give a lot more thought to tagging?

Mark



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Re: Drain vs. ditch

Peter Elderson
Who is to decide?

Mvg Peter Elderson

> Op 2 feb. 2019 om 15:38 heeft EthnicFood IsGreat <[hidden email]> het volgende geschreven:
>
>
>> Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2019 14:22:20 +0100
>> From: Hufkratzer <[hidden email]>
>> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
>>    <[hidden email]>
>> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch
>>
>>
>> If we were discussing a proposal I would agree, but replacing
>> waterway=drain by waterway=ditch + usage=drainage or sth. like that is
>> not such an easy task.  We already have 800k drains. I assume it
>> requires a proposal with volting to deprecate drain, adaption of the
>> presets, perhaps a mass edit. Who will do all this? Is the advantage of
>> using waterway=ditch + usage=drainage instead of waterway=drain so
>> immense that it is worth the effort?
>>
>> [...]
>
>
> This goes to the very core of the tagging policy of OSM.  The current state of OSM tags is a screwed up mess.  Because we are "prohibited" from going back in time and correcting bad tagging decisions that were made in the past, we are stuck with trying to shoehorn new tag definitions into a chaotic, disorganized system. The way I see it, if we were allowed to conduct mass edits to revise poorly-planned tagging choices, we would save ourselves a lot of trouble in the long run.  It would be painful at first, adjusting to the changes, but I think it would be worth it.  Don't we all agree that if we were starting all over from scratch, we would give a lot more thought to tagging?
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

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Re: Drain vs. ditch

EthnicFood IsGreat
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> Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2019 16:49:54 +0100
> From: Peter Elderson <[hidden email]>
> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
> <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Drain vs. ditch
>
>
> Who is to decide?
>
> Mvg Peter Elderson
>
>> Op 2 feb. 2019 om 15:38 heeft EthnicFood IsGreat <[hidden email]> het volgende geschreven:
>>
>>
>>> Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2019 14:22:20 +0100
>>> From: Hufkratzer <[hidden email]>
>>> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
>>>     <[hidden email]>
>>> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch
>>>
>>>
>>> If we were discussing a proposal I would agree, but replacing
>>> waterway=drain by waterway=ditch + usage=drainage or sth. like that is
>>> not such an easy task.  We already have 800k drains. I assume it
>>> requires a proposal with volting to deprecate drain, adaption of the
>>> presets, perhaps a mass edit. Who will do all this? Is the advantage of
>>> using waterway=ditch + usage=drainage instead of waterway=drain so
>>> immense that it is worth the effort?
>>>
>>> [...]
>>
>> This goes to the very core of the tagging policy of OSM.  The current state of OSM tags is a screwed up mess.  Because we are "prohibited" from going back in time and correcting bad tagging decisions that were made in the past, we are stuck with trying to shoehorn new tag definitions into a chaotic, disorganized system. The way I see it, if we were allowed to conduct mass edits to revise poorly-planned tagging choices, we would save ourselves a lot of trouble in the long run.  It would be painful at first, adjusting to the changes, but I think it would be worth it.  Don't we all agree that if we were starting all over from scratch, we would give a lot more thought to tagging?
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>

Ha ha, that would be the topic of a whole other discussion.

Mark



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Re: Drain vs. ditch

EthnicFood IsGreat
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> Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2019 17:12:33 -0800
> From: Michael Patrick <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch
> A survey of international and some national lexicons indicates that the two
> terms 'ditch' and 'drain' are equivalent used in the context of liquids
> from the smallest to largest scales.
>
> The term 'drain' however seems mostly to apply at the interface where the
> water transitions from the substrate ( soil ) to free running water, down
> flow from that the water is 'channeled' through ditches, fluves, shutes,
> spillways, canals, and a multitude of functional confinements. One of the
> earliest ( 1920 ) legal references to British and American law notes this
> equivalence, and the following an extract from a 2017 global standard
> saying basically the same thing.
>
[...]


> Local terminology takes precedence, at the highest level it is available.
>
> While a dictionary might be a useful start for determining a meaning, there
> is almost always some better source of definitions in a specific domain,
> culture, and region, and location. The U.N., E.U., U.K., Scotland, and down
> to Renfrewshire all have documentation of what terms mean in those local
> contexts, for example.
>
> Almost always, a single word will be immediately overloaded when used world
> wide.Human languages have compound words, adjectives, verbs and adverbs for
> a reason, and tagging schemes have equivalents.
>
> Michael Patrick
> Data Ferret


Michael, thank you for your extensive and instructive research.

Mark



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