Dropped or lowered kerbs

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Dropped or lowered kerbs

Andy Mabbett
I've been reading the wiki page:

   https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:kerb

and I'm no wiser on how to map a dropped (or "lowered") kerb.

I'm looking at a road which is mapped as a single way, without
separate pavements.

JOSM wants to add "barrier=kerb", but that would surely imply a
barrier /across/ the road?

Examples would be helpful, please.

--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: Dropped or lowered kerbs

Rob Nickerson
Hi Andy,

It somewhat depends on what you are trying to map.

The kerb=* tag on the wiki page you linked to is for when mapping a crossing. As shown on the second example on the page. you would create a way that runs perpendicular to the highway at the point where a footpath (or cyclepath) crosses the road. Add a crossing tag at the point where the footway (or cycleway) intersects the road. Then add a node on the footway (or cycleway) at the kerb and add the appropriate tag (kerb=lowered, kerb=flush).

The barrier=kerb tag in JOSM is when you want to map the kerbside. You draw this parallel to the road and add barrier=kerb to the way to indicate that this is the kerb. If you like, you can then add height=* to the way.

I would suggest doing the former and skipping the latter unless you are intending to create a super detail map (e.g. when mapping roads as areas rather than just centre lines).

Of course the issue here is that, even the former suggests that you are mapping the pavements parallel to the way as footways. Quite often we don't bother adding that level of detail. I guess in that case you could just add the kerb=lowered tag to the highway=crossing node (assuming it is a lowered kerb on both sides of the road).

Best regards,
Rob

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Re: Dropped or lowered kerbs

Andy Mabbett
On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 at 19:10, Rob Nickerson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> It somewhat depends on what you are trying to map.
>
> The kerb=* tag on the wiki page you linked to is for when mapping a crossing.
[...]

Thank you. I've also had an off-list reply saying:

   For crossings on single carriageway roads I would standardly just
   tag the highway=crossing node with the relevant tags, usually
   tactile_paving and kerb tags, like this
   https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2303780892.

I am looking to tag dropped kerbs in two circumstances; in places that
look like this:

   https://goo.gl/maps/UnBiAsxgCFR2

Sometimes, there are two crossings adjacent, or nearly adjacent,
making a place convenient as an informal crossing point for
wheelchairs, pushchairs, barrows, etc.

Often, however, there is a dropped kerb on one side, but not the
other, That's still useful info someone needs to drop off a wheelchair
user, for example.

On a simple, single-line way, I had envisioned nodes with something like:

    kerb=dropped
    droped-kerb=both
    crossing=unmarked

or:

    kerb=dropped
    droped-kerb=left

respectively.

--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: Dropped or lowered kerbs

sk53.osm
It wasn't meant to be off list!

Jerry

On Thu, 31 Jan 2019 at 10:35, Andy Mabbett <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 at 19:10, Rob Nickerson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> It somewhat depends on what you are trying to map.
>
> The kerb=* tag on the wiki page you linked to is for when mapping a crossing.
[...]

Thank you. I've also had an off-list reply saying:

   For crossings on single carriageway roads I would standardly just
   tag the highway=crossing node with the relevant tags, usually
   tactile_paving and kerb tags, like this
   https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2303780892.

I am looking to tag dropped kerbs in two circumstances; in places that
look like this:

   https://goo.gl/maps/UnBiAsxgCFR2

Sometimes, there are two crossings adjacent, or nearly adjacent,
making a place convenient as an informal crossing point for
wheelchairs, pushchairs, barrows, etc.

Often, however, there is a dropped kerb on one side, but not the
other, That's still useful info someone needs to drop off a wheelchair
user, for example.

On a simple, single-line way, I had envisioned nodes with something like:

    kerb=dropped
    droped-kerb=both
    crossing=unmarked

or:

    kerb=dropped
    droped-kerb=left

respectively.

--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: Dropped or lowered kerbs

TonyS

Guys
A difficulty with crossing is that it focuses purely on the drivers perspective. Where there is tactile paving, or coloured paving surely the crossing is marked for the pedestrian/wheelchair user and people with restricted sight. I think that the coloured/tactile paving constitutes markings for the pedestrian, a driver can also see them so is the crossing unmarked?

crossing=unmarked
A crossing without road markings or traffic lights
TonyS999
Tony Shield

On 31/01/2019 10:53, SK53 wrote:
It wasn't meant to be off list!

Jerry

On Thu, 31 Jan 2019 at 10:35, Andy Mabbett <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 at 19:10, Rob Nickerson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> It somewhat depends on what you are trying to map.
>
> The kerb=* tag on the wiki page you linked to is for when mapping a crossing.
[...]

Thank you. I've also had an off-list reply saying:

   For crossings on single carriageway roads I would standardly just
   tag the highway=crossing node with the relevant tags, usually
   tactile_paving and kerb tags, like this
   https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2303780892.

I am looking to tag dropped kerbs in two circumstances; in places that
look like this:

   https://goo.gl/maps/UnBiAsxgCFR2

Sometimes, there are two crossings adjacent, or nearly adjacent,
making a place convenient as an informal crossing point for
wheelchairs, pushchairs, barrows, etc.

Often, however, there is a dropped kerb on one side, but not the
other, That's still useful info someone needs to drop off a wheelchair
user, for example.

On a simple, single-line way, I had envisioned nodes with something like:

    kerb=dropped
    droped-kerb=both
    crossing=unmarked

or:

    kerb=dropped
    droped-kerb=left

respectively.

--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: Dropped or lowered kerbs

Andy Mabbett
On Thu, 31 Jan 2019 at 11:12, Tony Shield <[hidden email]> wrote:

> A difficulty with crossing is that it focuses purely on the drivers perspective.

I disagree. If I need to cross a road, as a pedestrian (especially if
I am using a wheeled mode of transport like a wheelchair, pushchair or
barrow), I want to find a crossing.

> Where there is tactile paving, or coloured paving

There is not, in the cases at hand. Did you view the Google Street
View page I linked to?

--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: Dropped or lowered kerbs

David Woolley
In reply to this post by Andy Mabbett
On 31/01/2019 10:33, Andy Mabbett wrote:

>
> I am looking to tag dropped kerbs in two circumstances; in places that
> look like this:
>
>     https://goo.gl/maps/UnBiAsxgCFR2
>
> Sometimes, there are two crossings adjacent, or nearly adjacent,
> making a place convenient as an informal crossing point for
> wheelchairs, pushchairs, barrows, etc.
>
> Often, however, there is a dropped kerb on one side, but not the
> other, That's still useful info someone needs to drop off a wheelchair
> user, for example.
>

Footway crossovers can be legally blocked by permission of the occupier
of the property for which they were provided.  Also they are not
necessarily in places where it would be safe for a pedestrian to cross.

I'd suggest this is overmapping, and any attempt to map a pedestrian
crossing at the point would be subjective.

Dropped kerbs for pedestrians are placed at safe places, albeit
generally only near junctions, and it is illegal to block them.

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Re: Dropped or lowered kerbs

Great Britain mailing list
It may be over-mapping, but there is a point (especially when we have snow or
ice-covered pavements). Of course pavements and places non-motorists use are
unlikely to be gritted in this car-centric community.

The common-or-garden dropped kerb can be hazardous especially for people with
restricted mobility (like sticks).

So, absent local authorities putting in textured paving routinely, it might be
conceivable to think of an app that warned people of such dropped kerbs.

We could of course spend the next ten years mapping all of them and not get
halfway through.

Paul Bivand

On Thursday, 31 January 2019 17:04:43 GMT David Woolley wrote:

> On 31/01/2019 10:33, Andy Mabbett wrote:
> > I am looking to tag dropped kerbs in two circumstances; in places that
> >
> > look like this:
> >     https://goo.gl/maps/UnBiAsxgCFR2
> >
> > Sometimes, there are two crossings adjacent, or nearly adjacent,
> > making a place convenient as an informal crossing point for
> > wheelchairs, pushchairs, barrows, etc.
> >
> > Often, however, there is a dropped kerb on one side, but not the
> > other, That's still useful info someone needs to drop off a wheelchair
> > user, for example.
>
> Footway crossovers can be legally blocked by permission of the occupier
> of the property for which they were provided.  Also they are not
> necessarily in places where it would be safe for a pedestrian to cross.
>
> I'd suggest this is overmapping, and any attempt to map a pedestrian
> crossing at the point would be subjective.
>
> Dropped kerbs for pedestrians are placed at safe places, albeit
> generally only near junctions, and it is illegal to block them.





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