Editing road geometry Australia

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Editing road geometry Australia

Petra Rajka - (p)

Hi everyone,

 

I’m Petra and I am part of the mapping team at Telenav.

Since January we started to work on road geometry in Canberra, Perth and Melbourne and we came across some intersections where roads (turn lanes) are mapped separately even where there is no physical divider or chevron markings.

 

See below two cases where we would simplify the geometry:

  • -32.0914374, 116.0129206
  • -35.3409195, 149.1616891

 

What’s your opinion about? What is the reason why turn lanes are mapped separately in these cases?

 


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Re: Editing road geometry Australia

Phil Wyatt

Hi Petra,

 

Perhaps you can give examples on how you think it should be mapped and maybe the wiki for such features?

 

https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=19/-32.09135/116.01298

 

https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=18/-35.34082/149.16303

 

They both look fine to me….but I don’t do much road mapping so others will probably chime in.

 

Cheers – Phil (tastrax)

 

From: Petra Rajka - (p) [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, 11 January 2019 5:18 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [talk-au] Editing road geometry Australia

 

Hi everyone,

 

I’m Petra and I am part of the mapping team at Telenav.

Since January we started to work on road geometry in Canberra, Perth and Melbourne and we came across some intersections where roads (turn lanes) are mapped separately even where there is no physical divider or chevron markings.

 

See below two cases where we would simplify the geometry:

  • -32.0914374, 116.0129206
  • -35.3409195, 149.1616891

 

What’s your opinion about? What is the reason why turn lanes are mapped separately in these cases?

 


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Fwd: Editing road geometry Australia

Graeme Fitzpatrick
In reply to this post by Petra Rajka - (p)
Resend to include list :-(

Thanks

Graeme


---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]>
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 at 17:12
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Editing road geometry Australia
To: Petra Rajka - (p) <[hidden email]>



On Fri, 11 Jan 2019 at 16:19, Petra Rajka - (p) <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi everyone,

 

I’m Petra and I am part of the mapping team at Telenav.

Since January we started to work on road geometry in Canberra, Perth and Melbourne and we came across some intersections where roads (turn lanes) are mapped separately even where there is no physical divider or chevron markings.


Sorry, Petra, but you've got me, at least, a bit confused?

https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=20/-32.09137/116.01315 certainly appears to show traffic islands (better view with Esri Clarity)


Sorry, can't see a problem with either of them, unless you're looking at something I'm not seeing? :-)

Thanks

Graeme

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Re: Fwd: Editing road geometry Australia

John Berkers
Long time lurker, some time editor.

It is my understanding that marked "turn right only  lanes" are not cause to create divergent ways.  These should be tagged using the "lanes" key as per https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:lanes

Creating divergent ways is considered "Tagging for the renderer" as the documented separation is not physically there.

The first one, in WA, appears less of an issue to me.  Perhaps the separation nodes could be closer to where the ways actually diverge, somewhere around the mid-point of the dashed lines, rather than at the start of them.

The second one, near Canberra, has clearly diverged ways most of the way along the bridge.

This intersection in Melbourne could potentially serve as an example:


Where there are actual medians between lanes, the ways separate, otherwise, they do not.

Hope I haven't spoken out of turn.  The views expressed above are my understanding of the guidelines with respect to mapping what is actually there.

Regards,

JohnB



On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 6:15 PM Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]> wrote:
Resend to include list :-(

Thanks

Graeme


---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]>
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 at 17:12
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Editing road geometry Australia
To: Petra Rajka - (p) <[hidden email]>



On Fri, 11 Jan 2019 at 16:19, Petra Rajka - (p) <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi everyone,

 

I’m Petra and I am part of the mapping team at Telenav.

Since January we started to work on road geometry in Canberra, Perth and Melbourne and we came across some intersections where roads (turn lanes) are mapped separately even where there is no physical divider or chevron markings.


Sorry, Petra, but you've got me, at least, a bit confused?

https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=20/-32.09137/116.01315 certainly appears to show traffic islands (better view with Esri Clarity)


Sorry, can't see a problem with either of them, unless you're looking at something I'm not seeing? :-)

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: Fwd: Editing road geometry Australia

Petra Rajka - (p)

On this post you can find an image about how we would edit these cases: https://github.com/TelenavMapping/AU-NZ_mapping_projects/issues/5

 

Regards,
Petra

From: John Berkers <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2019 10:51 AM
To: OSM-Au <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Fwd: Editing road geometry Australia

 

Long time lurker, some time editor.

 

It is my understanding that marked "turn right only  lanes" are not cause to create divergent ways.  These should be tagged using the "lanes" key as per https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:lanes

 

Creating divergent ways is considered "Tagging for the renderer" as the documented separation is not physically there.

 

The first one, in WA, appears less of an issue to me.  Perhaps the separation nodes could be closer to where the ways actually diverge, somewhere around the mid-point of the dashed lines, rather than at the start of them.

 

The second one, near Canberra, has clearly diverged ways most of the way along the bridge.

 

This intersection in Melbourne could potentially serve as an example:

 

 

Where there are actual medians between lanes, the ways separate, otherwise, they do not.

 

Hope I haven't spoken out of turn.  The views expressed above are my understanding of the guidelines with respect to mapping what is actually there.

 

Regards,

 

JohnB

 

 

 

On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 6:15 PM Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]> wrote:

Resend to include list :-(


Thanks

 

Graeme

 

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]>
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 at 17:12
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Editing road geometry Australia
To: Petra Rajka - (p) <[hidden email]>

 

 

On Fri, 11 Jan 2019 at 16:19, Petra Rajka - (p) <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi everyone,

 

I’m Petra and I am part of the mapping team at Telenav.

Since January we started to work on road geometry in Canberra, Perth and Melbourne and we came across some intersections where roads (turn lanes) are mapped separately even where there is no physical divider or chevron markings.

 

Sorry, Petra, but you've got me, at least, a bit confused?

 

https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=20/-32.09137/116.01315 certainly appears to show traffic islands (better view with Esri Clarity)

 

 

Sorry, can't see a problem with either of them, unless you're looking at something I'm not seeing? :-)

 

Thanks

 

Graeme

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Re: Fwd: Editing road geometry Australia

Warin
In reply to this post by John Berkers
On 11/01/19 19:51, John Berkers wrote:
Long time lurker, some time editor.

It is my understanding that marked "turn right only  lanes" are not cause to create divergent ways.  These should be tagged using the "lanes" key as per https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:lanes

Creating divergent ways is considered "Tagging for the renderer" as the documented separation is not physically there.

I disagree. But then I could be wrong.
In the second (Canberra) example:
Where a solid line exists between the two groups of lanes there is a 'legal barrier' that you cannot legally cross between the two groups of lanes (2 go right and 2 continues
 straight on).
Using the tag lanes does not convey this 'legal barrier'.
Also using the tag lanes how can the turn restrictions that exist be tagged, the right 2 must turn right and the left 2 must go straight on ?

The first one, in WA, appears less of an issue to me.  Perhaps the separation nodes could be closer to where the ways actually diverge, somewhere around the mid-point of the dashed lines, rather than at the start of them.

The second one, near Canberra, has clearly diverged ways most of the way along the bridge.

This intersection in Melbourne could potentially serve as an example:


Where there are actual medians between lanes, the ways separate, otherwise, they do not.

Hope I haven't spoken out of turn.  The views expressed above are my understanding of the guidelines with respect to mapping what is actually there.

Regards,

JohnB



On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 6:15 PM Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]> wrote:
Resend to include list :-(

Thanks

Graeme


---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]>
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 at 17:12
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Editing road geometry Australia
To: Petra Rajka - (p) <[hidden email]>



On Fri, 11 Jan 2019 at 16:19, Petra Rajka - (p) <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi everyone,

 

I’m Petra and I am part of the mapping team at Telenav.

Since January we started to work on road geometry in Canberra, Perth and Melbourne and we came across some intersections where roads (turn lanes) are mapped separately even where there is no physical divider or chevron markings.


Sorry, Petra, but you've got me, at least, a bit confused?

https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=20/-32.09137/116.01315 certainly appears to show traffic islands (better view with Esri Clarity)


Sorry, can't see a problem with either of them, unless you're looking at something I'm not seeing? :-)

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: Fwd: Editing road geometry Australia

John Berkers
Warin,

I agree with your point about being able to tag the turn restrictions, and the solid white line.

I think the main issue is that the node where the ways diverge is a significant distance from where the line become solid.  If fact, the node is near the beginning of the dashed line.

If the divergence of the ways was placed nearer to the commencement of the solid white line, this would maintain the ability to implement turn restrictions, and clean up the intersection.  Lane tagging is also recommended, prior to the divergence of the ways, so that supporting navigation aids can advise the driver appropriately.

Does this work for you, Petra/Telenav?

Also, Petra, your image of the WA intersection is more in-line with what I believe should be mapped in that instance, and is in line with my earlier comments.

Does anyone else have further suggestions on the Canberra intersection?

Regards,

JohnB

On Sat, Jan 12, 2019 at 8:53 AM Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 11/01/19 19:51, John Berkers wrote:
Long time lurker, some time editor.

It is my understanding that marked "turn right only  lanes" are not cause to create divergent ways.  These should be tagged using the "lanes" key as per https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:lanes

Creating divergent ways is considered "Tagging for the renderer" as the documented separation is not physically there.

I disagree. But then I could be wrong.
In the second (Canberra) example:
Where a solid line exists between the two groups of lanes there is a 'legal barrier' that you cannot legally cross between the two groups of lanes (2 go right and 2 continues
 straight on).
Using the tag lanes does not convey this 'legal barrier'.
Also using the tag lanes how can the turn restrictions that exist be tagged, the right 2 must turn right and the left 2 must go straight on ?

The first one, in WA, appears less of an issue to me.  Perhaps the separation nodes could be closer to where the ways actually diverge, somewhere around the mid-point of the dashed lines, rather than at the start of them.

The second one, near Canberra, has clearly diverged ways most of the way along the bridge.

This intersection in Melbourne could potentially serve as an example:


Where there are actual medians between lanes, the ways separate, otherwise, they do not.

Hope I haven't spoken out of turn.  The views expressed above are my understanding of the guidelines with respect to mapping what is actually there.

Regards,

JohnB



On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 6:15 PM Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]> wrote:
Resend to include list :-(

Thanks

Graeme


---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]>
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 at 17:12
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Editing road geometry Australia
To: Petra Rajka - (p) <[hidden email]>



On Fri, 11 Jan 2019 at 16:19, Petra Rajka - (p) <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi everyone,

 

I’m Petra and I am part of the mapping team at Telenav.

Since January we started to work on road geometry in Canberra, Perth and Melbourne and we came across some intersections where roads (turn lanes) are mapped separately even where there is no physical divider or chevron markings.


Sorry, Petra, but you've got me, at least, a bit confused?

https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=20/-32.09137/116.01315 certainly appears to show traffic islands (better view with Esri Clarity)


Sorry, can't see a problem with either of them, unless you're looking at something I'm not seeing? :-)

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: Editing road geometry Australia

Ian Steer
In reply to this post by Petra Rajka - (p)
I also agree with the Telenav approach for the WA intersection (the other is unnecessarily complicated).

Ian


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Re: Fwd: Editing road geometry Australia

Marc Gemis
In reply to this post by Warin
On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 10:53 PM Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> Also using the tag lanes how can the turn restrictions that exist be tagged, the right 2 must turn right and the left 2 must go straight on ?
>

A combination of turn:lanes (through|through|right|right) and
change:lanes (yes|only_left|only_right|yes) and lanes=4 before the
split and lanes=2 on both ways after the split, should be enough.

AFAIK routers do not handle the change:lanes at this moment, but do a
good job based on the turn:lanes.

regards

m.

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