FCC public documents license and submarine cables mapping

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FCC public documents license and submarine cables mapping

François Lacombe-2
Hi all,

Google is currently rolling out several submarine telecommunication cable systems and Amercian FCC actually publishes application documents describing them.

Such one regards the Dunant system between Virginia Beach and Saint-Hilaire-de-Riez in France

As the application document shows maps of landings and global Atlantic Ocean route, I'm technically able to add it to OSM as several other submarine systems already exists there.

Are you aware of license issues regarding FCC documents which would prevent us to take data from them?

All the best

François

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Re: FCC public documents license and submarine cables mapping

Clifford Snow

François,
The US FCC should be public domain unless otherwise indicated. 

Best,
Clifford

On Sat, Apr 13, 2019 at 7:48 AM François Lacombe <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi all,

Google is currently rolling out several submarine telecommunication cable systems and Amercian FCC actually publishes application documents describing them.

Such one regards the Dunant system between Virginia Beach and Saint-Hilaire-de-Riez in France

As the application document shows maps of landings and global Atlantic Ocean route, I'm technically able to add it to OSM as several other submarine systems already exists there.

Are you aware of license issues regarding FCC documents which would prevent us to take data from them?

All the best

François
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Re: FCC public documents license and submarine cables mapping

General Discussion mailing list
The linked document was filed by GN's attorneys, submitted to the FCC, not authored by the FCC. That said, the level of detail on the map is so small that I personally would deem any copying de minimus. 

On Sat, Apr 13, 2019, 11:30 PM Clifford Snow <[hidden email]> wrote:

François,
The US FCC should be public domain unless otherwise indicated. 

Best,
Clifford

On Sat, Apr 13, 2019 at 7:48 AM François Lacombe <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi all,

Google is currently rolling out several submarine telecommunication cable systems and Amercian FCC actually publishes application documents describing them.

Such one regards the Dunant system between Virginia Beach and Saint-Hilaire-de-Riez in France

As the application document shows maps of landings and global Atlantic Ocean route, I'm technically able to add it to OSM as several other submarine systems already exists there.

Are you aware of license issues regarding FCC documents which would prevent us to take data from them?

All the best

François
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OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
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Re: FCC public documents license and submarine cables mapping

Mateusz Konieczny-3
de minimis is applicable in cases where copyrighted content is unimportant addition to
work

it certainly does not apply in case where you copy solely that content

For example de minimis apply if you take photo and there is a movie poster in the
background.

It stops to apply once you crop to show solely that copyrighted poster.


Compare
where de minims appply
and
where it likely no longer applies

------

"data is low quality" is not waiving copyright.

Apr 14, 2019, 7:39 AM by [hidden email]:
The linked document was filed by GN's attorneys, submitted to the FCC, not authored by the FCC. That said, the level of detail on the map is so small that I personally would deem any copying de minimus. 

On Sat, Apr 13, 2019, 11:30 PM Clifford Snow <[hidden email]> wrote:

François,
The US FCC should be public domain unless otherwise indicated. 

Best,
Clifford

On Sat, Apr 13, 2019 at 7:48 AM François Lacombe <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi all,

Google is currently rolling out several submarine telecommunication cable systems and Amercian FCC actually publishes application documents describing them.

Such one regards the Dunant system between Virginia Beach and Saint-Hilaire-de-Riez in France

As the application document shows maps of landings and global Atlantic Ocean route, I'm technically able to add it to OSM as several other submarine systems already exists there.

Are you aware of license issues regarding FCC documents which would prevent us to take data from them?

All the best

François
_______________________________________________
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--
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OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
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Re: FCC public documents license and submarine cables mapping

General Discussion mailing list
My opinion as a copyright lawyer is that there is nothing copyrightable in the single line that consists of the proposed route, under US law. 
Of course others are free to disagree. 

On Sun, Apr 14, 2019, 9:36 AM Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:
de minimis is applicable in cases where copyrighted content is unimportant addition to
work

it certainly does not apply in case where you copy solely that content

For example de minimis apply if you take photo and there is a movie poster in the
background.

It stops to apply once you crop to show solely that copyrighted poster.


Compare
where de minims appply
and
where it likely no longer applies

------

"data is low quality" is not waiving copyright.

Apr 14, 2019, 7:39 AM by [hidden email]:
The linked document was filed by GN's attorneys, submitted to the FCC, not authored by the FCC. That said, the level of detail on the map is so small that I personally would deem any copying de minimus. 

On Sat, Apr 13, 2019, 11:30 PM Clifford Snow <[hidden email]> wrote:

François,
The US FCC should be public domain unless otherwise indicated. 

Best,
Clifford

On Sat, Apr 13, 2019 at 7:48 AM François Lacombe <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi all,

Google is currently rolling out several submarine telecommunication cable systems and Amercian FCC actually publishes application documents describing them.

Such one regards the Dunant system between Virginia Beach and Saint-Hilaire-de-Riez in France

As the application document shows maps of landings and global Atlantic Ocean route, I'm technically able to add it to OSM as several other submarine systems already exists there.

Are you aware of license issues regarding FCC documents which would prevent us to take data from them?

All the best

François
_______________________________________________
talk mailing list


--
@osm_washington
OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
_______________________________________________
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Re: FCC public documents license and submarine cables mapping

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

> On 14. Apr 2019, at 09:47, Kathleen Lu via talk <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> My opinion as a copyright lawyer is that there is nothing copyrightable in the single line that consists of the proposed route, under US law.
> Of course others are free to disagree.


are you sure that US law applies when someone takes these maps and adds the contained information into OpenStreetMap?
Is there a general agreement whose law applies, does it depend on where the mapper is located while mapping? Does it depend on where you get sued? (e.g. Google could sue in the US but also for example in Ireland through child companies).


Cheers, Martin
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Re: FCC public documents license and submarine cables mapping

General Discussion mailing list

For Berne counties, I think it technically depends on where the "infringement" takes place, whatever that would mean in this scenario, but the idea that Google would go to another country to spend $$$ to sue over this one line is preposterous to me.
Let me put it this way: I would be comfortable taking the "risk" myself.


On Sun, Apr 14, 2019, 10:03 AM Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:


sent from a phone

> On 14. Apr 2019, at 09:47, Kathleen Lu via talk <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> My opinion as a copyright lawyer is that there is nothing copyrightable in the single line that consists of the proposed route, under US law.
> Of course others are free to disagree.


are you sure that US law applies when someone takes these maps and adds the contained information into OpenStreetMap?
Is there a general agreement whose law applies, does it depend on where the mapper is located while mapping? Does it depend on where you get sued? (e.g. Google could sue in the US but also for example in Ireland through child companies).


Cheers, Martin

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Re: FCC public documents license and submarine cables mapping

François Lacombe-2
Hi all

Well, these are great inputs so thank you

I agree that the document were committed by Google to FCC.

Le dim. 14 avr. 2019 à 10:51, Kathleen Lu via talk <[hidden email]> a écrit :

For Berne counties, I think it technically depends on where the "infringement" takes place, whatever that would mean in this scenario, but the idea that Google would go to another country to spend $$$ to sue over this one line is preposterous to me.
Let me put it this way: I would be comfortable taking the "risk" myself.

Indeed, and furthermore "A cable is coming between A and B" sounds like public information since Google and third parties published about it.
Drawing a pretty straight line between landing points won't sounds like copyright violation.

This is not so clear for landing paths between beach to stations, until we see technicians rolling out the cable, let's try to be there at the right time

All the best

François

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Re: FCC public documents license and submarine cables mapping

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by General Discussion mailing list


sent from a phone

On 14. Apr 2019, at 10:48, Kathleen Lu <[hidden email]> wrote:

For Berne counties, I think it technically depends on where the "infringement" takes place, whatever that would mean in this scenario


the information is stored and distributed from the UK, the mapper is more likely to come from a different country. 


but the idea that Google would go to another country to spend $$$ to sue over this one line is preposterous to me.


what I meant is that they are already there.

Cheers, Martin 

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Re: FCC public documents license and submarine cables mapping

General Discussion mailing list
Hi Martin,
Yes, Google might already have a subsidiary in a country (since they have them in many but certainly not in all countries) but they would still have to "go" there in the sense that: 1) I very much doubt the subsidiary would already have a plaintiff-side copyright attorney on speed dial, so they'd have to get one; 2) they'd have to produce the paperwork that shows that subsidiary owns the copyright in question. Given that this was a filing with the US FCC, odds are that all the people involved in producing the filing are in the US, and therefore the paperwork is in the US and would need to be transferred to the subsidiary in order for the subsidiary to sue... (Frankly, I don't think it'd be cheaper to that, vs the default ownership entity hiring local lawyers and filing suit in its own name, so I don't think the existence of the subsidiaries matters.)
-Kathleen

On Sun, Apr 14, 2019 at 7:47 AM Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:


sent from a phone

On 14. Apr 2019, at 10:48, Kathleen Lu <[hidden email]> wrote:

For Berne counties, I think it technically depends on where the "infringement" takes place, whatever that would mean in this scenario


the information is stored and distributed from the UK, the mapper is more likely to come from a different country. 


but the idea that Google would go to another country to spend $$$ to sue over this one line is preposterous to me.


what I meant is that they are already there.

Cheers, Martin 

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Re: FCC public documents license and submarine cables mapping

General Discussion mailing list
Of course Google *can* afford a lawyer and bureaucracy does not legally or physically limit their ability to act, but I think you underestimate the *practical* limitations. Even the smallest amount of bureaucracy and cost (which just adds more bureaucracy, because the cost must be approved) makes it just not worth it for the *individual* who works for Google who would have to call up the lawyer and find the paperwork and organize the paperwork and get approvals, when they already have a hundred other more important tasks to do. Honestly, the bigger the company, the more bureaucracy.

In the general scenario, setting aside the insignificant case, there's an argument to be made that three difference "infringements" can take place: One by the mapper in copying the material into OSM, one by OSM in "distributing" the material (whether "distributing" is really the right word is going to depend country by country, but that's the concept), and one by a user in copying the material from OSM (and then doing whatever else to it). So the law of the country of all three would apply, just apply to different activities.
From a practical standpoint, if there were a significant infringement situation, and regardless of whether the owner was Google or some other entity, I would think their main concern would be stop further inclusion of the material OSM, and possibly further use by a major user of OSM, so the location of the mapper matters very little (unless the mapper was a disgruntled employee or some weird situation like that).

-Kathleen

On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 9:25 AM Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:


> On 15 Apr 2019, at 18:07, Kathleen Lu <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi Martin,
> Yes, Google might already have a subsidiary in a country (since they have them in many but certainly not in all countries) but they would still have to "go" there in the sense that: 1) I very much doubt the subsidiary would already have a plaintiff-side copyright attorney on speed dial, so they'd have to get one; 2) they'd have to produce the paperwork that shows that subsidiary owns the copyright in question. Given that this was a filing with the US FCC, odds are that all the people involved in producing the filing are in the US, and therefore the paperwork is in the US and would need to be transferred to the subsidiary in order for the subsidiary to sue... (Frankly, I don't think it'd be cheaper to that, vs the default ownership entity hiring local lawyers and filing suit in its own name, so I don't think the existence of the subsidiaries matters.)
>



I guess bureaucracy would not limit their ability to act. These reasonings may hold up for smaller countries and companies, but Google Ireland Ltd. is the Google subsidiary for the whole common European market (or EU, not sure), their 2017 revenue was 32 billion Euros, if they need an attorney they will find one.

Reason I asked was because you wrote the situation depends on the place where the infraction happens (besides the probably insignificant case at hand, with a single line drawn), the question which law is applicable is a returning one.

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: FCC public documents license and submarine cables mapping

SimonPoole
In reply to this post by François Lacombe-2

Actually I think the more important question is: doesn't google have a better method to create a background map than screenshots? :-) (particularly noticeable due to the POI pins in the 2nd and third illustrations).

Am 13.04.2019 um 16:47 schrieb François Lacombe:
Hi all,

Google is currently rolling out several submarine telecommunication cable systems and Amercian FCC actually publishes application documents describing them.

Such one regards the Dunant system between Virginia Beach and Saint-Hilaire-de-Riez in France

As the application document shows maps of landings and global Atlantic Ocean route, I'm technically able to add it to OSM as several other submarine systems already exists there.

Are you aware of license issues regarding FCC documents which would prevent us to take data from them?

All the best

François

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Re: FCC public documents license and submarine cables mapping

General Discussion mailing list
Google, yes. Google's lawyers, no ;)

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019, 4:07 AM Simon Poole <[hidden email]> wrote:

Actually I think the more important question is: doesn't google have a better method to create a background map than screenshots? :-) (particularly noticeable due to the POI pins in the 2nd and third illustrations).

Am 13.04.2019 um 16:47 schrieb François Lacombe:
Hi all,

Google is currently rolling out several submarine telecommunication cable systems and Amercian FCC actually publishes application documents describing them.

Such one regards the Dunant system between Virginia Beach and Saint-Hilaire-de-Riez in France

As the application document shows maps of landings and global Atlantic Ocean route, I'm technically able to add it to OSM as several other submarine systems already exists there.

Are you aware of license issues regarding FCC documents which would prevent us to take data from them?

All the best

François

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