Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

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Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

john whelan-2
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-49091093

Did I miss a discussion on the subject or an announcement from Fredrick on this?

I note "Martijn van Exel" is quoted.

Many Thanks

Cheerio John
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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

Nuno Caldeira
so grateful of "The project is a collaboration with OpenStreetMap (OSM)". I might have missed the announcement, can anyone pinpoint me the link of such collaboration being announced?
Hope they find some spare time in the future to add the attribution on the maps on their website and apps. #priorities

A quarta, 24/07/2019, 20:59, John Whelan <[hidden email]> escreveu:
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-49091093

Did I miss a discussion on the subject or an announcement from Fredrick on this?

I note "Martijn van Exel" is quoted.

Many Thanks

Cheerio John
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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

Tom Hughes-3
I think it's a unilateral self-declared collaboration ;-)

Tom

On 24/07/2019 21:07, Nuno Caldeira wrote:

> so grateful of "The project is a collaboration with OpenStreetMap
> (OSM)". I might have missed the announcement, can anyone pinpoint me the
> link of such collaboration being announced?
> Hope they find some spare time in the future to add the attribution on
> the maps on their website and apps. #priorities
>
> A quarta, 24/07/2019, 20:59, John Whelan <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> escreveu:
>
>     https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-49091093
>
>     Did I miss a discussion on the subject or an announcement from
>     Fredrick on this?
>
>     I note "Martijn van Exel" is quoted.
>
>     Many Thanks
>
>     Cheerio John
>     --
>     Sent from Postbox <https://www.postbox-inc.com>
>     _______________________________________________
>     talk mailing list
>     [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

stevea
In reply to this post by john whelan-2
I'm not sure whether Martijn said this or not, I'm not sure if the BBC reporter was spoofed, I'm not sure what "Map with AI" is (a front, cover or shell company for Facebook or one of its many arms?), I'm simply not sure about virtually everything regarding this story.  It seems like a meme planted by Facebook to see what sort of reaction it would draw, but that is a guess, as I can gain no useful information from this reporting whatsoever.  I'm very, very skeptical about everything to do with it.

If your "media criticism meter" didn't "peg into the red zone" when reading this, perhaps it should have.  Something smells absolutely terrible about this and on many fronts.  Please be cautious about everything having anything to do with it.

Simply my opinion,
SteveA
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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Tom Hughes-3


sent from a phone

> On 24. Jul 2019, at 22:16, Tom Hughes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I think it's a unilateral self-declared collaboration ;-)


We should be cautious with this, they are a corporate member and on the advisory board, so clearly there is some documented kind of collaboration, or at least it looks as if (hardly anybody outside of OpenStreetMap and maybe also not so many inside of OpenStreetMap will be able to estimate the importance of this entity), and by suggesting they are contributing AI generated data it may look as if a lot of OpenStreetMap data came through processes like this rather than local people contributing their knowledge.

Cheers Martin
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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

Andy Townsend
In reply to this post by john whelan-2
On 24/07/2019 20:56, John Whelan wrote:
> https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-49091093
>
> I note "Martijn van Exel" is quoted.

I'm sure if the BBC wanted to do some actual journalism they could ask
some OSM contributors in Thailand what their view was (see e.g.
https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=65056 for a selection
of opinions) rather than just regurgitating FB's press release without
it touching the sides on either the way down or the way up.

I'm sure that there's someone at the BBC who's job it is to deal with
complaints about non-news like this (in fact a couple of clicks from
that "article" takes you straight to
http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/complain-online/ ), just like the DWG
have to deal with complaints about, shall we say, "sub optimal mapping"
from the likes of Facebook et al.

To be fair to Facebook (speaking entirely as an outsider to that
organisation here), their approach seems to have moved from being
entirely "mechanical" to involving more humans.  Facebook's early
attempts were, in a nutshell, dreadful:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17856687 is a write-up from someone
who was apparently working there at the time; it's pretty much a
textbook example of "how not to contribute to OSM". Latterly they have
been much more communicative with the community, as you can see by
reading the Thai forum threads.

Other large companies contributing to OSM have followed similar paths;
although sometimes it does require a rather excessive number of
changeset discussion comments, OSM messages that users have to read
before continuing to edit, longer blocks and reverts before they give up
and actually try communicating with other people*.

Best Regards,

Andy

(a member of the DWG, so I've of course had to "bucket and shovel"
Facebook mechanical edits in the past, but writing here in an entirely
personal capacity)

* for the avoidance of doubt this wasn't Facebook; it was a smaller
company offering B2B services in a couple of countries.



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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

john whelan-2
My personal view is I think using AI to identify potential highways and buildings is fine but there needs to be a process that includes manual review.

Basically the import process.

I think my concern was more the idea in the article that suggests OSM welcomes AI mapping and by implication conventional mappers were no longer required.  This may impact HOT mapathons by the way if people feel that needn't bother mapping, the AI will do it all.

Could someone clarify with the BBC to describe the process and emphasize the community aspect of OSM.  It is summer so news apart from Boris is thin on the ground so it might well be an opportune time to get a bit of publicity for OpenStreetMap.

Cheerio John

On Wed, Jul 24, 2019, 4:57 PM Andy Townsend, <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 24/07/2019 20:56, John Whelan wrote:
> https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-49091093
>
> I note "Martijn van Exel" is quoted.

I'm sure if the BBC wanted to do some actual journalism they could ask
some OSM contributors in Thailand what their view was (see e.g.
https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=65056 for a selection
of opinions) rather than just regurgitating FB's press release without
it touching the sides on either the way down or the way up.

I'm sure that there's someone at the BBC who's job it is to deal with
complaints about non-news like this (in fact a couple of clicks from
that "article" takes you straight to
http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/complain-online/ ), just like the DWG
have to deal with complaints about, shall we say, "sub optimal mapping"
from the likes of Facebook et al.

To be fair to Facebook (speaking entirely as an outsider to that
organisation here), their approach seems to have moved from being
entirely "mechanical" to involving more humans.  Facebook's early
attempts were, in a nutshell, dreadful:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17856687 is a write-up from someone
who was apparently working there at the time; it's pretty much a
textbook example of "how not to contribute to OSM". Latterly they have
been much more communicative with the community, as you can see by
reading the Thai forum threads.

Other large companies contributing to OSM have followed similar paths;
although sometimes it does require a rather excessive number of
changeset discussion comments, OSM messages that users have to read
before continuing to edit, longer blocks and reverts before they give up
and actually try communicating with other people*.

Best Regards,

Andy

(a member of the DWG, so I've of course had to "bucket and shovel"
Facebook mechanical edits in the past, but writing here in an entirely
personal capacity)

* for the avoidance of doubt this wasn't Facebook; it was a smaller
company offering B2B services in a couple of countries.



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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

Nuno Caldeira
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
to be honest I dont find anything about the collaboration.
about they being a corporate member and to be caution to what we say, i this this sums it up when they dont:
Foundation and community expectations
We expect Corporate Members to conduct themselves as good citizens of the OpenStreetMap ecosystem, e.g. by complying with our attribution requirements (Licence and Legal FAQ), following good editing practice and adhering to the community's guidelines, such as the Licence/Community Guidelines and the Organised Editing Guidelines. 


what a example of a corporate member we have! 

unless Facebook has a some sort of exception within OSMF, that im not aware. 

A quarta, 24/07/2019, 21:54, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> escreveu:


sent from a phone

> On 24. Jul 2019, at 22:16, Tom Hughes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I think it's a unilateral self-declared collaboration ;-)


We should be cautious with this, they are a corporate member and on the advisory board, so clearly there is some documented kind of collaboration, or at least it looks as if (hardly anybody outside of OpenStreetMap and maybe also not so many inside of OpenStreetMap will be able to estimate the importance of this entity), and by suggesting they are contributing AI generated data it may look as if a lot of OpenStreetMap data came through processes like this rather than local people contributing their knowledge.

Cheers Martin

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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

Andy Townsend
In reply to this post by john whelan-2
On 24/07/2019 22:15, john whelan wrote:
> Could someone clarify with the BBC to describe the process and
> emphasize the community aspect of OSM.

Yes - you can do that yourself at
http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/complain-online/ , or maybe try the link
from
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/1WbP92b6YbpP9j4mwwbtc9Q/contact-us 
.

Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

General Discussion mailing list
In reply to this post by john whelan-2
The BBC article is missing a lot of context and details. The actual Facebook post - https://tech.fb.com/ai-is-supercharging-the-creation-of-maps-around-the-world/ - notes both the importance of human mappers and the local community's on-the-ground contributions, and states "We became close collaborators with the OSM community during our work in Thailand", quite different than the BBC's statement. 

On Wed, Jul 24, 2019 at 2:17 PM john whelan <[hidden email]> wrote:
My personal view is I think using AI to identify potential highways and buildings is fine but there needs to be a process that includes manual review.

Basically the import process.

I think my concern was more the idea in the article that suggests OSM welcomes AI mapping and by implication conventional mappers were no longer required.  This may impact HOT mapathons by the way if people feel that needn't bother mapping, the AI will do it all.

Could someone clarify with the BBC to describe the process and emphasize the community aspect of OSM.  It is summer so news apart from Boris is thin on the ground so it might well be an opportune time to get a bit of publicity for OpenStreetMap.

Cheerio John

On Wed, Jul 24, 2019, 4:57 PM Andy Townsend, <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 24/07/2019 20:56, John Whelan wrote:
> https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-49091093
>
> I note "Martijn van Exel" is quoted.

I'm sure if the BBC wanted to do some actual journalism they could ask
some OSM contributors in Thailand what their view was (see e.g.
https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=65056 for a selection
of opinions) rather than just regurgitating FB's press release without
it touching the sides on either the way down or the way up.

I'm sure that there's someone at the BBC who's job it is to deal with
complaints about non-news like this (in fact a couple of clicks from
that "article" takes you straight to
http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/complain-online/ ), just like the DWG
have to deal with complaints about, shall we say, "sub optimal mapping"
from the likes of Facebook et al.

To be fair to Facebook (speaking entirely as an outsider to that
organisation here), their approach seems to have moved from being
entirely "mechanical" to involving more humans.  Facebook's early
attempts were, in a nutshell, dreadful:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17856687 is a write-up from someone
who was apparently working there at the time; it's pretty much a
textbook example of "how not to contribute to OSM". Latterly they have
been much more communicative with the community, as you can see by
reading the Thai forum threads.

Other large companies contributing to OSM have followed similar paths;
although sometimes it does require a rather excessive number of
changeset discussion comments, OSM messages that users have to read
before continuing to edit, longer blocks and reverts before they give up
and actually try communicating with other people*.

Best Regards,

Andy

(a member of the DWG, so I've of course had to "bucket and shovel"
Facebook mechanical edits in the past, but writing here in an entirely
personal capacity)

* for the avoidance of doubt this wasn't Facebook; it was a smaller
company offering B2B services in a couple of countries.



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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

stevea
In reply to this post by john whelan-2
An article such as that proposed by John would almost be a master's thesis if done correctly and would likely put the typical BBC reader to sleep.  Such an article would suffer from the constraints of concision typical in mainstream Western media, which means simply the topics would not receive the depth they deserve.  Such an article would need to address the history of OSM, the history of AI in OSM and its failures and successes (some of both, plenty of the former) and any attempt to "take the temperature" of "we in OSM" who feel one way or another about AI as a process for data entry would be almost horrifically complex in its vast spectrum of opinions.  This is not something, I suspect, editors at the BBC would find makes for interesting reading.  Unfortunately, what appears to be a sensationalistic, poorly researched, short, punchy story that sounds like "Facebook to the rescue of mapping in developing countries with AI!" is something an editor will (and did, apparently) green light.

I do agree that the article seems quite glib in its treatment of the topic:  though to me it makes it sound like Facebook has magic bullets that can and will solve the challenges of the hard work of mapping, when we (humans in OSM) who do map know better (while AI is powerful and can help solve certain problems, it most certainly isn't a magic bullet).  I'd call the article an unfortunate example in the typical concision found in major news outlets which sensationalizes what is a relatively minor improvement by a company (Facebook) whose mere mention in an article is almost guaranteed to generate readership / eyeballs.  It is sad to see this obvious seduction and that many fall for it, but fortunately, a wise person once reminded us "you can't fool all of the people all of the time."

SteveA

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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

James-2
News outlet sensationalizes story to attract views to its website.....I can't think of one example of this ever happening in the history pf the planet



p.s. I dropped this: /s

On Wed., Jul. 24, 2019, 5:32 p.m. stevea, <[hidden email]> wrote:
An article such as that proposed by John would almost be a master's thesis if done correctly and would likely put the typical BBC reader to sleep.  Such an article would suffer from the constraints of concision typical in mainstream Western media, which means simply the topics would not receive the depth they deserve.  Such an article would need to address the history of OSM, the history of AI in OSM and its failures and successes (some of both, plenty of the former) and any attempt to "take the temperature" of "we in OSM" who feel one way or another about AI as a process for data entry would be almost horrifically complex in its vast spectrum of opinions.  This is not something, I suspect, editors at the BBC would find makes for interesting reading.  Unfortunately, what appears to be a sensationalistic, poorly researched, short, punchy story that sounds like "Facebook to the rescue of mapping in developing countries with AI!" is something an editor will (and did, apparently) green light.

I do agree that the article seems quite glib in its treatment of the topic:  though to me it makes it sound like Facebook has magic bullets that can and will solve the challenges of the hard work of mapping, when we (humans in OSM) who do map know better (while AI is powerful and can help solve certain problems, it most certainly isn't a magic bullet).  I'd call the article an unfortunate example in the typical concision found in major news outlets which sensationalizes what is a relatively minor improvement by a company (Facebook) whose mere mention in an article is almost guaranteed to generate readership / eyeballs.  It is sad to see this obvious seduction and that many fall for it, but fortunately, a wise person once reminded us "you can't fool all of the people all of the time."

SteveA

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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

stevea
Sure, James.  I'm simply calling this as I see it here, in context, with an appropriate audience.
SteveA

> On Jul 24, 2019, at 3:02 PM, James <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> News outlet sensationalizes story to attract views to its website.....I can't think of one example of this ever happening in the history pf the planet


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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

Florian Lohoff-2
In reply to this post by Nuno Caldeira
On Wed, Jul 24, 2019 at 09:07:01PM +0100, Nuno Caldeira wrote:
> so grateful of "The project is a collaboration with OpenStreetMap (OSM)". I
> might have missed the announcement, can anyone pinpoint me the link of such
> collaboration being announced?
> Hope they find some spare time in the future to add the attribution on the
> maps on their website and apps. #priorities

They had a talk about this in Milano at the SoTM - And IIRC it was about a
collaboration with the local community in Thailand which their first aim
was.

You might want to check the video on their talk last year.

Flo
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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

Nuno Caldeira
In reply to this post by stevea
https://venturebeat.com/2019/07/23/facebook-speeds-up-mapping-data-validation-with-machine-learning-tools-map-with-ai-and-rapid/

"Facebook says that the mapping data validated by Map With AI — which will be publicly available — might help to inform disaster urban planning and development projects, and to improve Facebook products that use OpenStreetMap like Marketplace, Local, and Pages."

oh the wonders! so what Facebook products are using OSM data? I don't see the attribution or notice of OSM being used. can someone pinpoint me of such? I have tried, but can't find it. 

"“The RapiD tool was developed in conjunction with those in the mapping community who have been working in this area for many years. Because this tool was built with their input, it is already having an impact,” said Tyler Radford,executive director of the humanitarian OpenStreetMap team."
 
so HOT is behind this too? 

" Above: Visualization of the geographic distribution of training data for the road segmentation

model.

Image Credit: Facebook"

oh... they have added road data in Europe or just the training? haven't seen that. lovely it's credited to Facebook 


A quarta, 24/07/2019, 23:08, stevea <[hidden email]> escreveu:
Sure, James.  I'm simply calling this as I see it here, in context, with an appropriate audience.
SteveA

> On Jul 24, 2019, at 3:02 PM, James <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> News outlet sensationalizes story to attract views to its website.....I can't think of one example of this ever happening in the history pf the planet


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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

Martijn van Exel-3
In reply to this post by stevea
I did. After Drishtie Patel announced a preview of this project[1] I gave it a go and shared my observations with them.
Martijn

[1] https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/DrishT/diary/368711

> On Jul 24, 2019, at 2:16 PM, stevea <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I'm not sure whether Martijn said this or not


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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Nuno Caldeira


sent from a phone

On 25. Jul 2019, at 15:42, Nuno Caldeira <[hidden email]> wrote:

"“The RapiD tool was developed in conjunction with those in the mapping community who have been working in this area for many years. Because this tool was built with their input, it is already having an impact,” said Tyler Radford,executive director of the humanitarian OpenStreetMap team."


so it is an official OpenStreetMap effort, the OpenStreetMap-Foundation is involved, and this is their statement? This is the impression I would get from reading this paragraph without background information.

Cheers Martin 

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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

Mikel Maron-3
In reply to this post by Martijn van Exel-3
I also tried it out after Drishtie's post, and was impressed with many of the considerations in the process. The team developing this is indeed very open to feedback and have iterated a lot. I had also been watching this work as it moved alongside great strides in quality checks in iD. Deliberate open work to apply ML where it can be useful -> aiding human mappers, is the name of the game. Recommend to all to check it out directly.

* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron


On Thursday, July 25, 2019, 05:29:17 PM GMT+3, Martijn van Exel <[hidden email]> wrote:


I did. After Drishtie Patel announced a preview of this project[1] I gave it a go and shared my observations with them.
Martijn

[1] https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/DrishT/diary/368711

> On Jul 24, 2019, at 2:16 PM, stevea <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I'm not sure whether Martijn said this or not


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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

Frederik Ramm
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
Hi,

On 7/25/19 17:05, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> so it is an official OpenStreetMap effort, the OpenStreetMap-Foundation
> is involved, and this is their statement? This is the impression I would
> get from reading this paragraph without background information.

No it is not. This press release is on the same level as "Cloudmade's
OpenStreetMap Project" so many years ago. It would be nice if our
communications working group had the capacity of rectifying such
misinformation, or if companies could simply treat us more fairly in
their never-ending quest for attention, but both are unlikely to happen.

Bye
Frederik

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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

stevea
In reply to this post by Martijn van Exel-3
I would like to publicly, sincerely thank Martijn for saying that here.
SteveA

> On Jul 25, 2019, at 7:26 AM, Martijn van Exel <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I did. After Drishtie Patel announced a preview of this project[1] I gave it a go and shared my observations with them.
> Martijn
>
> [1] https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/DrishT/diary/368711
>
>> On Jul 24, 2019, at 2:16 PM, stevea <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I'm not sure whether Martijn said this or not
>


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