Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

Sérgio V.
Just adding my R$0,02 (Brazilian Real).
I guess soon the AI assisted Human mapping will happen, it may be a very good help.
But I can't evaluate what's been publicized July 23, 2019 by
https://ai.facebook.com/blog/mapping-roads-through-deep-learning-and-weakly-supervised-training
"To browse our machine learning road predictions or start mapping with RapiD, please visit mapwith.ai."
So at "Map faster, Map better" https://mapwith.ai/#14/6.13864/6.7698 , 
I actually can't evaluate any result for roads at max zoom level 14, to see if it's really better. I can just believe it can be. 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Sérgio - http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/smaprs


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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

Frederik Ramm
In reply to this post by Frederik Ramm
Hi,

On 25.07.19 22:03, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> This press release is on the same level as "Cloudmade's
> OpenStreetMap Project" so many years ago.

In case anyone doubts that -

https://www.digitalinformationworld.com/2019/07/facebook-ai-is-supercharging-the-creation-of-maps-around-the-world.html

"Recently, Facebook released a statement about its new effort to create
an OpenStreetMap project to not only benefit from mapping data but also
making this platform an open-source navigational source for users."

And the rest of the article is about how Facebook's only purpose is to
bring comfort to people's lives etc.

This is probably normal for corporate PR people, but for me it's just
disgusting.

Bye
Frederik

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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

Mikel Maron-3
This is just another badly written article by a third party. As someone else on thread said, hardly the first time a media piece gets OSM wrong.

Take a look at facebook’s own words here https://tech.fb.com/ai-is-supercharging-the-creation-of-maps-around-the-world/

I’m sure there’s plenty of phrases in FB’s own post to get worked about, if you’re looking for things to flame Facebook and the entire corporate world about. 

Myself, I like what they’re doing.

Mikel

On Friday, July 26, 2019, 10:47 AM, Frederik Ramm <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi,

On 25.07.19 22:03, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> This press release is on the same level as "Cloudmade's
> OpenStreetMap Project" so many years ago.

In case anyone doubts that -

https://www.digitalinformationworld.com/2019/07/facebook-ai-is-supercharging-the-creation-of-maps-around-the-world.html

"Recently, Facebook released a statement about its new effort to create
an OpenStreetMap project to not only benefit from mapping data but also
making this platform an open-source navigational source for users."

And the rest of the article is about how Facebook's only purpose is to
bring comfort to people's lives etc.

This is probably normal for corporate PR people, but for me it's just
disgusting.


Bye
Frederik

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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

Christoph Hormann-2
In reply to this post by Frederik Ramm
On Friday 26 July 2019, Frederik Ramm wrote:
>
> This is probably normal for corporate PR people, but for me it's just
> disgusting.

And in that conflict in my eyes you can see the core of the problem.  
The corporate appropriation of OpenStreetMap and the OSM community has
meanwhile all the characteristics of a cult.  You can see in the
reactions of corporate representatives here - as well as in other cases
where corporate PR misrepresenting OSM is presented, see for example
the comments to the Facebook diary entry that has been linked to or in
the discussion with the Thailand community, that many of them are so
detached from the reality of the hobby mapper community and
non-corporate data users that functional communication is essentially
not possible any more.

I have no solution for this - at least none that works within OSM alone.  
But i have strong doubts meanwhile that arguing with people who are
fully immersed into the belief system of corporate PR regarding OSM is
of benefit in most cases.  This in itself is a pretty frightening
realization.

There is a famous saying (not sure of its origin) - that fits pretty
well here:  It is hard to make people understand something if their
livelihood depends on not understanding it.

--
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

Nuno Caldeira

i share the thoughts and concerns shared by Christoph. It's not surprisingly that most of these companies are "tied" or are client/service providers of each other, some are even Corporate members of OSMF. Who would bite the hand the feeds?

Blaming third party media outlets, when Facebook article title is "AI is supercharging the creation of maps around the world" says a lot. What maps? Bit of misleading title oh well, not clear enough. #options

Also the video they have on the article shows in the end the attribution. Funnily uploaded on Vimeo, that regarding this https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2019-July/082927.html replied me yesterday mentioning they are having an investigation between their engineers and their legal department to add the attribution on the map on their LiveStream platform.... hope it does not take as long as the steam engine speed legal dept of facebook that still hasn't figured out since October what to do about the attribution as when they replied to me in October 2018, as reported here https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2019-June/082702.html

For a tv, film or video production, the attribution should typically appear in a corner of the map. As long as the credit is on screen long enough to be read, it does not have to remain in view during panning or zooming. For productions with end credits, we would also welcome a credit there

from https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Licence/Licence_and_Legal_FAQ#Where_to_put_it.3F



Às 09:34 de 26/07/2019, Christoph Hormann escreveu:
On Friday 26 July 2019, Frederik Ramm wrote:
This is probably normal for corporate PR people, but for me it's just
disgusting.
And in that conflict in my eyes you can see the core of the problem.  
The corporate appropriation of OpenStreetMap and the OSM community has 
meanwhile all the characteristics of a cult.  You can see in the 
reactions of corporate representatives here - as well as in other cases 
where corporate PR misrepresenting OSM is presented, see for example 
the comments to the Facebook diary entry that has been linked to or in 
the discussion with the Thailand community, that many of them are so 
detached from the reality of the hobby mapper community and 
non-corporate data users that functional communication is essentially 
not possible any more.

I have no solution for this - at least none that works within OSM alone.  
But i have strong doubts meanwhile that arguing with people who are 
fully immersed into the belief system of corporate PR regarding OSM is 
of benefit in most cases.  This in itself is a pretty frightening 
realization.

There is a famous saying (not sure of its origin) - that fits pretty 
well here:  It is hard to make people understand something if their 
livelihood depends on not understanding it.


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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Christoph Hormann-2
@mikel in Fakeboosts own blog post there is still the misrepresentation of the role OSM plays in this project, due to HOT appearing to be an official OSM body (by the mere utilization of the OpenStreetMap trademark in their company name):

“The RapiD tool was developed in conjunction with those in the mapping community who have been working in this area for many years. Because this tool was built with their input, it is already having an impact,” says Tyler Radford, the executive director of the Humanitarian OSM Team (HOT), which aims to make sure OSM represents all parts of the world."

and

The Map With AI team is collaborating with HOT to add more features to RapiD. For one step in that process, they’ve integrated RapiD into a development branch of HOT Tasking Manager,



Whoever reads this and does not have deeper insights into the workings of the OSMF must get into the impression that HOT is an official part of the OSMF / OpenStreetMap, i.e. OSM is collaborating with FB.

I am not sure if being a "corporate Gold member" already counts as being in collaboration with OSMF (likely not, because "collaboration" means "working" (labor) together, not just providing funds)

Cheers,

Martin


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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

Mikel Maron-3

From Christoph...

> The corporate appropriation of OpenStreetMap and the OSM community has 
meanwhile all the characteristics of a cult .. But i have strong doubts meanwhile that arguing with people who are  fully immersed into the belief system of corporate PR regarding OSM is  of benefit in most cases.

Well this is pretty much a statement to end the conversation, isn't it? I could say the same "cult" about the knee jerk reaction of the self appointed representatives of the "hobby mapper". It does lead me to the same conclusion, almost -- which is that there is no point discussing these topics with you people here. But where would that get us?

I for one would not say anything if I did not personally believe it. I am not here representing corporate interests (at this very moment I'm writing this from the middle of Nairobi's largest slum working on OSM, rather than a comfortable room in Europe). You can still draw whatever conclusions about me you like.

For me, enough with the division of OSM along these blunt, uninformed lines.

From Martin...
Fakeboosts

good one :)

Whoever reads this and does not have deeper insights into the workings of the OSMF must get into the impression that HOT is an official part of the OSMF / OpenStreetMap, i.e. OSM is collaborating with FB.

Well that very well might be true about perception. But Facebook did not say that OSMF was supporting the project. They representing correctly. We all here get the difference and understand that HOT is a different organization. Making this distinction is not Facebook's problem, but rather HOT and OSMF should do a better job explaining the complexity of the whole universe of OSM.

-Mikel

* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron


On Friday, July 26, 2019, 12:17:38 PM GMT+3, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:


@mikel in Fakeboosts own blog post there is still the misrepresentation of the role OSM plays in this project, due to HOT appearing to be an official OSM body (by the mere utilization of the OpenStreetMap trademark in their company name):

“The RapiD tool was developed in conjunction with those in the mapping community who have been working in this area for many years. Because this tool was built with their input, it is already having an impact,” says Tyler Radford, the executive director of the Humanitarian OSM Team (HOT), which aims to make sure OSM represents all parts of the world."

and

The Map With AI team is collaborating with HOT to add more features to RapiD. For one step in that process, they’ve integrated RapiD into a development branch of HOT Tasking Manager,



Whoever reads this and does not have deeper insights into the workings of the OSMF must get into the impression that HOT is an official part of the OSMF / OpenStreetMap, i.e. OSM is collaborating with FB.

I am not sure if being a "corporate Gold member" already counts as being in collaboration with OSMF (likely not, because "collaboration" means "working" (labor) together, not just providing funds)

Cheers,

Martin


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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

Nuno Caldeira
Whoever reads this and does not have deeper insights into the workings of the OSMF must get into the impression that HOT is an official part of the OSMF / OpenStreetMap, i.e. OSM is collaborating with FB.

Well that very well might be true about perception. But Facebook did not say that OSMF was supporting the project. They representing correctly. We all here get the difference and understand that HOT is a different organization. Making this distinction is not Facebook's problem, but rather HOT and OSMF should do a better job explaining the complexity of the whole universe of OSM.

I'm sure Facebook are not aware of it, like they are not Corporate members of OSMF. If they can't simple understand and comply with the attribution, it's sure a third party duty to elucidate outsiders of the OSM the differences between those two.

Also about the attribution, some of their maps (not all, some still do not have attribution) since yesterday are displaying this attribution after clicking on the "i" https://i.ibb.co/mvxRgg4/facebook.jpg . Can someone explain them that the required attribution is  “© OpenStreetMap contributors” and not “© OpenStreetMap”. There's plenty of space to show it properly as "Report a problem with the map" is longer than “© OpenStreetMap contributors”. I would do it myself, but they stopped replying to my emails. Maybe they are not aware how to properly attribute, must be someone else's duty to explain.


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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

Joseph Eisenberg
In reply to this post by Mikel Maron-3
The most well-know version is from Upton Sinclair's campaign to become
governor of California in the 1930's:

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary
depends upon his not understanding it." - Upton Sinclair - See
https://quoteinvestigator.com/2017/11/30/salary/

Upton Sinclair is most famous for writing "The Jungle" as a young man.

> "enough with the division of OSM along these blunt, uninformed lines"

I think it's unfair to accuse Christoph of being uninformed. From what
I've read over the past year, he appears to be one of the few
individuals who are informed about the goings-on between the OSMF
board and corporations, who is not actually a member of either body.

On 7/26/19, Mikel Maron <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> From Christoph...
>> The corporate appropriation of OpenStreetMap and the OSM community
>> has meanwhile all the characteristics of a cult .. But i have strong
>> doubts meanwhile that arguing with people who are  fully immersed into the
>> belief system of corporate PR regarding OSM is  of benefit in most cases.
> Well this is pretty much a statement to end the conversation, isn't it? I
> could say the same "cult" about the knee jerk reaction of the self appointed
> representatives of the "hobby mapper". It does lead me to the same
> conclusion, almost -- which is that there is no point discussing these
> topics with you people here. But where would that get us?
> I for one would not say anything if I did not personally believe it. I am
> not here representing corporate interests (at this very moment I'm writing
> this from the middle of Nairobi's largest slum working on OSM, rather than a
> comfortable room in Europe). You can still draw whatever conclusions about
> me you like.
> For me, enough with the division of OSM along these blunt, uninformed
> lines.
> From Martin...> Fakeboosts
> good one :)
>> Whoever reads this and does not have deeper insights into the workings of
>> the OSMF must get into the impression that HOT is an official part of the
>> OSMF / OpenStreetMap, i.e. OSM is collaborating with FB.
> Well that very well might be true about perception. But Facebook did not say
> that OSMF was supporting the project. They representing correctly. We all
> here get the difference and understand that HOT is a different organization.
> Making this distinction is not Facebook's problem, but rather HOT and OSMF
> should do a better job explaining the complexity of the whole universe of
> OSM.
> -Mikel
> * Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron
>
>     On Friday, July 26, 2019, 12:17:38 PM GMT+3, Martin Koppenhoefer
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>  @mikel in Fakeboosts own blog post there is still the misrepresentation of
> the role OSM plays in this project, due to HOT appearing to be an official
> OSM body (by the mere utilization of the OpenStreetMap trademark in their
> company name):
>
>
> “The RapiD tool was developed in conjunction with those in the mapping
> community who have been working in this area for many years. Because this
> tool was built with their input, it is already having an impact,” says Tyler
> Radford, the executive director of the Humanitarian OSM Team (HOT), which
> aims to make sure OSM represents all parts of the world."
>
>
> and
>
>
> The Map With AI team is collaborating with HOT to add more features to
> RapiD. For one step in that process, they’ve integrated RapiD into a
> development branch of HOT Tasking Manager,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Whoever reads this and does not have deeper insights into the workings of
> the OSMF must get into the impression that HOT is an official part of the
> OSMF / OpenStreetMap, i.e. OSM is collaborating with FB.
>
> I am not sure if being a "corporate Gold member" already counts as being in
> collaboration with OSMF (likely not, because "collaboration" means "working"
> (labor) together, not just providing funds)
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> Martin
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>

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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

Christoph Hormann-2
On Friday 26 July 2019, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
> The most well-know version is from Upton Sinclair's campaign to
> become governor of California in the 1930's:
>
> "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary
> depends upon his not understanding it." - Upton Sinclair - See
> https://quoteinvestigator.com/2017/11/30/salary/
>
> Upton Sinclair is most famous for writing "The Jungle" as a young
> man.

Ah, thanks - that is indeed the likely origin.

--
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

Mikel Maron-3
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg
>"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary
depends upon his not understanding it." 

Ok it's a pithy quote. Is it possible that however well written, this quote may not always be right? that it's difficult but not impossible to get a man or woman to understand something, despite their position? and that my salary does not depend on me avoiding thinking freely about this project?

Seeing that none of you arguing with me in this thread know me personally, I think it's extremely presumptuous that you think you understand me.

I think it's unfair to accuse Christoph of being uninformed.

Is it unfair that Christoph accuses me of being in a cult?

I did not accuse Christoph of being uninformed. But the general argument here certainly is -- about the capability of people involved in OSM in a corporate way having no ability to think in another frame; or that even the corporate frame can not encompass other viewpoints, only profit.

-Mikel


* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron


On Friday, July 26, 2019, 01:18:11 PM GMT+3, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:


The most well-know version is from Upton Sinclair's campaign to become
governor of California in the 1930's:

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary
depends upon his not understanding it." - Upton Sinclair - See
https://quoteinvestigator.com/2017/11/30/salary/

Upton Sinclair is most famous for writing "The Jungle" as a young man.

> "enough with the division of OSM along these blunt, uninformed lines"

I think it's unfair to accuse Christoph of being uninformed. From what
I've read over the past year, he appears to be one of the few
individuals who are informed about the goings-on between the OSMF
board and corporations, who is not actually a member of either body.

On 7/26/19, Mikel Maron <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> From Christoph...
>> The corporate appropriation of OpenStreetMap and the OSM community
>> has meanwhile all the characteristics of a cult .. But i have strong
>> doubts meanwhile that arguing with people who are  fully immersed into the
>> belief system of corporate PR regarding OSM is  of benefit in most cases.
> Well this is pretty much a statement to end the conversation, isn't it? I
> could say the same "cult" about the knee jerk reaction of the self appointed
> representatives of the "hobby mapper". It does lead me to the same
> conclusion, almost -- which is that there is no point discussing these
> topics with you people here. But where would that get us?
> I for one would not say anything if I did not personally believe it. I am
> not here representing corporate interests (at this very moment I'm writing
> this from the middle of Nairobi's largest slum working on OSM, rather than a
> comfortable room in Europe). You can still draw whatever conclusions about
> me you like.
> For me, enough with the division of OSM along these blunt, uninformed
> lines.
> From Martin...> Fakeboosts
> good one :)
>> Whoever reads this and does not have deeper insights into the workings of
>> the OSMF must get into the impression that HOT is an official part of the
>> OSMF / OpenStreetMap, i.e. OSM is collaborating with FB.
> Well that very well might be true about perception. But Facebook did not say
> that OSMF was supporting the project. They representing correctly. We all
> here get the difference and understand that HOT is a different organization.
> Making this distinction is not Facebook's problem, but rather HOT and OSMF
> should do a better job explaining the complexity of the whole universe of
> OSM.
> -Mikel
> * Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron
>
>    On Friday, July 26, 2019, 12:17:38 PM GMT+3, Martin Koppenhoefer
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>  @mikel in Fakeboosts own blog post there is still the misrepresentation of
> the role OSM plays in this project, due to HOT appearing to be an official
> OSM body (by the mere utilization of the OpenStreetMap trademark in their
> company name):
>
>
> “The RapiD tool was developed in conjunction with those in the mapping
> community who have been working in this area for many years. Because this
> tool was built with their input, it is already having an impact,” says Tyler
> Radford, the executive director of the Humanitarian OSM Team (HOT), which
> aims to make sure OSM represents all parts of the world."
>
>
> and
>
>
> The Map With AI team is collaborating with HOT to add more features to
> RapiD. For one step in that process, they’ve integrated RapiD into a
> development branch of HOT Tasking Manager,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Whoever reads this and does not have deeper insights into the workings of
> the OSMF must get into the impression that HOT is an official part of the
> OSMF / OpenStreetMap, i.e. OSM is collaborating with FB.
>
> I am not sure if being a "corporate Gold member" already counts as being in
> collaboration with OSMF (likely not, because "collaboration" means "working"
> (labor) together, not just providing funds)
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> Martin
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

>

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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

Mike N.
In reply to this post by Christoph Hormann-2
On 7/26/2019 4:34 AM, Christoph Hormann wrote:
> The corporate appropriation of OpenStreetMap

I'm not a corporate wonk, but I'll note that in my region, "Amazon
Logistics" is effectively solving the Last Mile Mapping problem: how to
include driveways into routing.    Based on ground truth, they're
including travel barriers, as well as other routes hidden under tree
cover.   There's no official data on driveways and it is impractical if
not dangerous to randomly walk or drive up private driveways to map them.

   Eventually, I'll be able to propose the use of an OSM app to local
Emergency Services who just recently noted that their response time
suffers as they attempt to find the proper driveway to enter, as well as
navigate the correct split driveway.

   [ I'm well aware that the Amazon mappers are not perfect and have
made newbie errors in other regions ]

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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

Frederik Ramm
In reply to this post by Mikel Maron-3
Mikel,

On 26.07.19 11:49, Mikel Maron wrote:
> I for one would not say anything if I did not personally believe it. I
> am not here representing corporate interests (at this very moment I'm
> writing this from the middle of Nairobi's largest slum working on OSM,
> rather than a comfortable room in Europe). You can still draw whatever
> conclusions about me you like.

But you are a rare exception. You were "in OSM" long before it was
economically fashionable. And I guess that if you were to quit your job
tomorrow and go herding sheep in New Zealand, you would still be doing
something with OSM.

When Christoph and I speak of corporate appropriation, we think of
organisations encroaching OSM without any interest other than their own
commercial goals. We think of people who do this *purely* as a job and
who will immediately quit if their employer tasks them with something else.

OSM, by itself, does not need anyone to "turbocharge mapping". This is
purely a concept driven by the commercial motives of Facebook et al; OSM
didn't scale up quickly enough for them because OSM valued first-hand
contributions from hobbyists on the ground. And you know how global
capitalism works these days - it depends on exploiting people in one
part of the world to produce stuff for people elsewhere. Almost every
rule-violating import or mass edit these days is done by low-paid,
exploited workers somewhere in Asia or South America on behalf of US
American companies. And now Facebook gives us another tool whereby
someone with money in country A can pay a poor person in country B a few
peanuts to add a couple thousand roads in country C because that's where
they want to develop new business or whatever.

One thing that Karl Marx was banging on about with regards to Capitalism
was the concept of "alienation". I don't agree with many of his ideas
but I do kind of buy this idea, that people are disenfranchised by
capitalism driving a wedge between the worker and their product. Where
we used to have craftspeople who made a thing and sold it, we now had
people who just add a little thing to something on a conveyour belt and
never get to see the final product.

This is what happens with this "turbocharged" mapping. We used to have
mappers survey and add something, and be the author of it. Facebook and
Co are edging us towards a situation where most of the map will be made
by exploited micro-taskers with the help of AI. Nobody will have the
pride of ownership any more; people will be alienated from the map.

I really struggle to see anything good in this whole project, even if it
didn't come from Facebook and even if it weren't crassly over-sold to
the press. I think that we are allowing corporate interests to take over
the soul of OpenStreetMap, wring it dry, and spit it out in a couple of
years when they find something else to play with.

Bye
Frederik

--
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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

Andy Townsend
In reply to this post by Mike N.
On 26/07/2019 11:54, Mike N wrote:
> On 7/26/2019 4:34 AM, Christoph Hormann wrote:
>> The corporate appropriation of OpenStreetMap
>
> I'm not a corporate wonk, but I'll note that in my region, "Amazon
> Logistics" is effectively solving the Last Mile Mapping problem: how
> to include driveways into routing.
...
>
>   [ I'm well aware that the Amazon mappers are not perfect and have
> made newbie errors in other regions ]
>
That's an excellent comparison to make.  One key difference is that
Amazon's mappers have been very reactive when it was made clear to them
that the way that they were mapping things with (in the UK) incorrect
access tags, and have since tried to ensure that they're doing it right
(see e.g. https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/jguthula/diary/390322 ). 
There will still be issues - Amazon's mappers are working with GPS
traces and imagery, but no local knowledge, so they will get things
wrong, but if everyone works together the combination of local mappers'
local knowledge and Amazon's mappers' willingness to spend hours adding
otherwise boring service roads and farm tracks should be to everyone's
benefit.

This is in stark contrast to Facebook's approach.  Again and again
they've been told what their licence of OSM data requires them to do,
and again and again they have not done it.  Again and again they were
told that their mapping was garbage, and while they have improved the
data quality of later additions (in Thailand) they have done nothing to
clean up the existing mess - it was left for the community and/or the
DWG to tidy up.

Unless you've been living under a rock, you'll be aware of Facebook's
other corporate actions over the last year or so and the reputational
damage that it has caused them (see e.g.
https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2019/07/ftc-imposes-5-billion-penalty-sweeping-new-privacy-restrictions 
).  That doesn't mean that individual people working for Facebook can't
be nice people and some of the tools they create can't be useful, but it
does mean that OSM needs to be careful that it's reputation isn't
tarnished by being associated with a corporate pariah* such as Facebook.

A statement from the board (or the LWG, if the LWG is looking at it
rather than the board) about the issues raised here by Nuno over the
last few months would be a start - either "we believe that Facebook's
OSM data usage is in compliance with the licence" or "we believe it
isn't and are trying to change it".  The OSMF has made a decision to
have Facebook as one of 6 gold corporate members listed at
https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Corporate_Members , so without any
clarification an outside observer would think that the OSMF fully
supports Facebook both in terms of data use and their "contributions" in
e.g. Egypt and Thailand, and approves of the use of OSM's brand to
bolster Facebook's excremental reputation.

Best Regards,

Andy

(writing, as is usual on this list, in an entirely personal capacity)

* far from the only example, of course, and even some organisations set
up "purely to do good" have struggled with reputational management
recently - see e.g.
https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2019/jun/11/oxfam-abuse-claims-haiti-charity-commission-report 
.



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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

stevea
I recall reading an article "The paid mappers are coming!" several years back, it seemed to alarm many, though it didn't spell the end of OSM.  Now we have "the applied intelligence is here!" doing much the same thing (being poorly introduced into the consciousness of our community, tripping alarms that we volunteer humans are losing control, etc.).

I took FB's AI tech for a spin and proclaimed it "nice" (after the rather badly botched article by the BBC sparked this discussion).  However, does that mean that "nice tech" is tech which SHOULD be applied to OSM?  Some (Frederik, others) say no, or perhaps holds his nose as he watches it happen anyway.  Others, who might make an argument that applied AI tech has similar (economic) incentives to be applied to OSM in the same way that companies who rely on OSM (there are many) pay mappers to improve OSM's data for their corporate interests, have a point.  There are Adam Smith ("invisible hand") forces at work that will (and do) cause such trends to not only happen in our project, but accelerate.  However, consider this very basic tenet of ours:  we have every right (as with imports, for example) to insist upon high quality data entering OSM.  Should an import, an AI, even an individual contributor enter poor quality data, we can, do and should say and do something about that.  OSM is "self-healing" in many regards:  it can take time and much back-and-forth, but on the whole, our data improve, and become high quality over the longer-term.  (Sometimes, it's one step backwards before we take two forwards, that does happen).

Rather than take sides (especially if polar opposites, especially as we try to avoid ad hominem attacks) I believe we can discuss this rationally.  Whether here or elsewhere, AI in OSM, like paid mappers in OSM, are here now and part of our future, whether we like it or not.  I believe the best we can do as volunteer humans who conscientiously guide our project forward and keep it true to its roots and tenets is to MANAGE these trends as best we can.  Some suggest that LWG and others determine whether or not FB is true to its agreements, that's a start (yes, as mentioned, FB doesn't have a good track record at being a good citizen w.r.t. keeping its promises).  Yet it is only a start and much more will need doing.

We can differ in opinion, disagree and even dissent (and all are normal in a project of millions) but we show how strong a project we are as we urge OSM forward with clarity when faced with confusion and decisiveness when faced with division.  As difficult as those are to achieve, they are the way forward.

Should "the press" report poorly, let's call them on it.  Should a company (whether a corporate sponsor of OSM or not) map poorly, let's call them on it.  Should anybody applying AI (ditto) map poorly, let's call them on it.  The ultimate arbiter should be the quality of our data.  Should we ever give up on insisting that our data be as top-quality as humanly (heh) possible, we will lose all that is good about OSM.

SteveA
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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

Naveen Francis
In reply to this post by Sérgio V.
Including my ₹ 0.10 (Indian ten paisa)
 
Echoes same thoughts of Brazilian Real. 

AI-assisted human mapping tools will be a good aid for the OSM community.

"Map faster, Map better". 

40,00,000 kms to be mapped in India. 
15 years of OSM mapped 18,00,000 kms. 

thanks,
naveenpf


On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 4:42 AM Sérgio V. <[hidden email]> wrote:
Just adding my R$0,02 (Brazilian Real).
I guess soon the AI assisted Human mapping will happen, it may be a very good help.
But I can't evaluate what's been publicized July 23, 2019 by
"To browse our machine learning road predictions or start mapping with RapiD, please visit mapwith.ai."
So at "Map faster, Map better" https://mapwith.ai/#14/6.13864/6.7698
I actually can't evaluate any result for roads at max zoom level 14, to see if it's really better. I can just believe it can be. 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Sérgio - http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/smaprs

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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

Christoph Hormann-2
In reply to this post by stevea
On Friday 26 July 2019, stevea wrote:
> [...]
> However, does that mean that "nice tech" is tech which SHOULD be
> applied to OSM?  Some (Frederik, others) say no, or perhaps holds his
> nose as he watches it happen anyway.  Others, who might make an
> argument that applied AI tech has similar (economic) incentives to be
> applied to OSM in the same way that companies who rely on OSM (there
> are many) pay mappers to improve OSM's data for their corporate
> interests, have a point.  [...]
> I believe we can discuss this rationally.

I think none of the critics of corporate appropriation and exploitation
of OSM here is opposed to rational discussion.  I have had plenty of
valuable discussions on use of automated techniques in geodata
analysis - both in the OSM context and outside of it.  But in the OSM
context these never happened with corporate representatives.  Why?
Because corporate culture tends to set extensive taboos around all the
ethical and social questions that arise from these subjects when you
discuss them in the context of OSM.  

If anyone could point me to any communication or writing from the
corporate domain about use of either automated techniques or
organized/paid mapping in OSM that seriously discusses the ethical and
social questions that arise from it please do so.

If and when this happens then we can have a rational discussion.

--
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

stevea
Excellent, Christoph.  I'll say that I have been (for decades, sometimes at a higher-level) in software (and data) quality assurance (QA) in major software companies (Apple, Adobe), some of whom make privacy and ethics important components of their way of doing business.  (Obviously, some companies are better, some are worse).  QA (departments) are often and precisely the sort of "corporate domain" where these ethical and social questions arise (and are often dealt with, however successfully).  I offer this knowledge in hopes it might steer you to both believe and further your quest that companies do care about these things, and that this has been "moderned up" with the application of machine learning / AI to big data (like OSM).  If not QA, there should be people at the C-level who know of what we speak here and can steer you in the right direction:  companies WANT to be known as good citizens who do the right things.

Yes, there are certainly profit-motivated behaviors and forces at work here (quite strongly, especially in the multibillion-$ major players of Big Tech), yet thankfully there are also humans at the helm.  Humans who know that their long-term success depends on playing fair, nice, transparently (to some extent, though gotta keep the edge sharp by keeping the "secret sauce" proprietary).  Humans who are accountable.  Seek out these people, these departments, these ethical foundations, as if they exist, companies will proudly share them with you and can then be held accountable for doing so.  I think we're on the right track by doing this.

I don't know that there are any "white papers" that would be an existence proof of what I say, but I'm sure if we "pound the table for answers," we'll get at least something.  It might be weak sauce, it might have a heavy public relations spin on it (initially) but we've got to get the ball rolling by bringing such conversations out into the open.  Thank you for your suggestions to facilitate this.

SteveA

> On Jul 26, 2019, at 10:30 AM, Christoph Hormann <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I think none of the critics of corporate appropriation and exploitation
> of OSM here is opposed to rational discussion.  I have had plenty of
> valuable discussions on use of automated techniques in geodata
> analysis - both in the OSM context and outside of it.  But in the OSM
> context these never happened with corporate representatives.  Why?
> Because corporate culture tends to set extensive taboos around all the
> ethical and social questions that arise from these subjects when you
> discuss them in the context of OSM.  
>
> If anyone could point me to any communication or writing from the
> corporate domain about use of either automated techniques or
> organized/paid mapping in OSM that seriously discusses the ethical and
> social questions that arise from it please do so.
>
> If and when this happens then we can have a rational discussion.
>
> --
> Christoph Hormann
> http://www.imagico.de/
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk


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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

Sérgio V.
In reply to this post by john whelan-2
That's also why I've always emphasized that the link for OSMF-talk email list
SHOULD be accessible for everyone to know it and read it (even if not signed to that mail list)
to be aware of what's going inside OSMF talks.
Not some hidden link in one in a thousand of wiki pages (I forgot it again).
It SHOULD be listed in the official LISTINFO, publicly:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo
While not, OSMF looks not much transparent for the simple collaborator. 

>Whoever reads this and does not have deeper insights into the workings of
>the OSMF must get into the impression that HOT is an official part of the
>OSMF / OpenStreetMap, i.e. OSM is collaborating with FB.
>I am not sure if being a "corporate Gold member" already counts as being in
>collaboration with OSMF (likely not, because "collaboration" means
>"working" (labor) together, not just providing funds)
>Cheers,Martin

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Sérgio - http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/smaprs


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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

Arun Ganesh
In reply to this post by stevea

Well put stevea!
Lets not forget what originally brought many of us here together (at least from my interactions with many of you in real life), a dream that humans could create the most accurate representation of the world through open collaboration.The support of FB massively increases the surface area of the OSM project to touch more humans through a single window than any other mediums we can currently imagine.

Most of the world is still under represented in the hobby/craftmapper group that is the dominant voice of this list and forum. More people from smaller cities and towns have gotten involved in OSM in India/South Asia from FB groups than other channels simply because its more easily accessible and has a greater reach to a largely phone based internet population.

This is an opportunity to figure out a meaningful way to collaborate constructively, and if its not happening in the way it should be, the priority is to figure out how to facilitate that conversation in a productive way. Making this a hobbyist vs corporate battle will just close the door on a lot of the world which deserves to benefit from this project and our collective work, and this is a world very different from what is represented today on this list. How many know that as you read this, over 11 million people (thats the population of Belgium) are displaced in active floods in India at this moment? FB/Whatsapp are what most people are using to communicate and coordinate on the ground, they wouldn't care if it was a corporate pariah or not as long as it works and can be used to help each other.

If theres any place where volunteers who take pains to survey their neighborhoods in great detail and make maps should be talking to first responders in natural disasters and figure out best ways to collaborate this is the place. Sure, corporates may be driven by profit, but behind those layers and PR and AI, its still humans who sweat it out and ultimately trying to build a better world using technology.

Full disclosure that i grew and managed one of the first organized corporate mapping teams on OSM. You can call me a wonk or a paid agent and thats fine, it wont stop me from tracing glaciers from satellite imagery in the Himalayas in my free time and figuring out how it can help more people on the ground. And yes, those glaciers have probably melted away and theres no practical way to ground truth them, hopefully no one is annoyed at me for that.

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