Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

Florian Lohoff-2
On Mon, Jul 29, 2019 at 10:41:17AM +0200, Michael Kugelmann wrote:

> Am 25.07.2019 um 11:36 schrieb Florian Lohoff:
> > And IIRC it was about a
> > collaboration with the local community in Thailand which their first aim
> > was.
> I just remember that the "collaboration" in Thailand some time ago
> (might be years) was quite poor: by using AI generated data simply
> thrown into the database they destroyed a lot of craft-mapped data. But
> unfortunately I am not aware how this evolved and about the current
> situation. That's the background why I would be very cautious about such
> "collaboration statements".
The point was not about quality but about announcement and speaking up
publicly about it.

And Facebook did - loud and clear for everyone to hear - Quality
issues are a seperate issue. I am pretty shure that AI can not replace
human, on the ground, observation. It can help identify places to
visit.

Flo
--
Florian Lohoff                                                 [hidden email]
        UTF-8 Test: The 馃悎 ran after a 馃悂, but the 馃悂 ran away

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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

stevea
I believe introducing into OSM technologies based in AI / machine learning REQUIRES a concomitant discussion about how the data WILL BE high quality, because they are quality assured (and perhaps here is a brief sketch of our QA process, or a pointer thereto).  Anything less feels disingenuous to me, as well as logically appears to be a false choice.  To say "quality issues are a seperate issue" (sic) seems an insult to OSM and indeed the very introduction of the AI technologies themselves to our project.

It is early (well, "earlier") days for these technologies as they are being built and deployed today, and while many (myself included) agree they can be useful and have their place, they MUST be accompanied by a social conscious as we do so.  OSM already has strong tenets like community-developed consensus to create such a social conscious, so deploying AI without eyes wide open and a firm hand on the tiller is nothing less than insanity doomed to failure.  The least we can do is to strongly couple discussions of quality with AI deployments, rather than divorcing them by declaring them "simply announcement."  I know that whenever I hear such "announcements" without any discussion of how quality will be assured that it is time to be immediately skeptical.  Please, let's keep AI on track by coupling it with discussions of quality, not making them separate issues, because truly, they are not.  Simply wishing that we can separate AI and quality will only more firmly entrench those of us who know to keep them together:  you can have high quality without AI, but you really shouldn't have AI without high quality.  Not as long as human wisdom is present and has something to say about it.

Not to put it too dramatically:  do we really want to hasten "the robots are taking over" by taking the throttle off, by ignoring or diminishing the importance of quality and its discernment by humans?  Of course not.

SteveA

> On Jul 31, 2019, at 6:27 AM, Florian Lohoff <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Jul 29, 2019 at 10:41:17AM +0200, Michael Kugelmann wrote:
>> Am 25.07.2019 um 11:36 schrieb Florian Lohoff:
>>> And IIRC it was about a
>>> collaboration with the local community in Thailand which their first aim
>>> was.
>> I just remember that the "collaboration" in Thailand some time ago
>> (might be years) was quite poor: by using AI generated data simply
>> thrown into the database they destroyed a lot of craft-mapped data. But
>> unfortunately I am not aware how this evolved and about the current
>> situation. That's the background why I would be very cautious about such
>> "collaboration statements".
>
> The point was not about quality but about announcement and speaking up
> publicly about it.
>
> And Facebook did - loud and clear for everyone to hear - Quality
> issues are a seperate issue. I am pretty shure that AI can not replace
> human, on the ground, observation. It can help identify places to
> visit.
>
> Flo
> --
> Florian Lohoff                                                 [hidden email]
>        UTF-8 Test: The 馃悎 ran after a 馃悂, but the 馃悂 ran away
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk


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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

stevea
Oops, "social conscience." (not conscious)
SteveA


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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

General Discussion mailing list
I agree that human wisdom is critical to high quality, and AI isn't useful if, at the end of the process, it doesn't produce quality output, but I will challenge this statement: "you can have high quality without AI." I don't think that's definitively true for a global map. It's very difficult to keep something at that scale that is constantly changing up to date, and while OSM is very high quality in some areas, human mappers have not been able to produce high quality maps worldwide. Corporations that use traditional survey techniques also have a lot of difficulty even while spending $$$ (and many if not all of them are also using AI). AI can augment human mapping in ways to make scale more manageable, and I think both will be needed to make a worldwide high quality map.聽聽


On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 10:26 AM stevea <[hidden email]> wrote:
Oops, "social conscience." (not conscious)
SteveA


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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

stevea
Right (or nearly right, imo), Kathy:  thank you for your reply.

I didn't say OSM absolutely DOES have high quality.  In my last decade of mapping here, I certainly have seen it get better (in pockets) as well as worse (in smaller pockets), so on the whole, it gets better / higher quality.  What I did say is that OSM absolutely "CAN have high quality without AI."  We must strive to do so, knowing that we sometimes miss the mark.  But including AI without hawkish attention to quality is folly,

Just because, as you say (and I agree), that "human mappers have not been able to produce high quality maps worldwide" doesn't mean that we can't, we simply must strive to do better.  And we do.  And we should using available tools like AI, though if we do, we absolutely must include a strong component of human-oriented quality assurance right at the forefront of doing so.

It sounds like we largely agree.  Provided we keep quality at the top of our consciousness as we do so, whether we use AI or not.

I appreciate the opportunity to share dialog,
SteveA

> On Jul 31, 2019, at 11:48 AM, Kathleen Lu <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I agree that human wisdom is critical to high quality, and AI isn't useful if, at the end of the process, it doesn't produce quality output, but I will challenge this statement: "you can have high quality without AI." I don't think that's definitively true for a global map. It's very difficult to keep something at that scale that is constantly changing up to date, and while OSM is very high quality in some areas, human mappers have not been able to produce high quality maps worldwide. Corporations that use traditional survey techniques also have a lot of difficulty even while spending $$$ (and many if not all of them are also using AI). AI can augment human mapping in ways to make scale more manageable, and I think both will be needed to make a worldwide high quality map.  
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 10:26 AM stevea <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Oops, "social conscience." (not conscious)
> SteveA
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk


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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

J贸hannes Birgir Jensson
31. j煤l铆 2019 kl. 19:01, skrifa冒i "stevea" <[hidden email]>:
 
> Just because, as you say (and I agree), that "human mappers have not been able to produce high
> quality maps worldwide" doesn't mean that we can't, we simply must strive to do better. And we do.
> And we should using available tools like AI, though if we do, we absolutely must include a strong
> component of human-oriented quality assurance right at the forefront of doing so.

For the sake of this discussion it should be pointed out that (except for initial Malaysia thing) the mapwith.ai website does just that.

The AI has found possible roads and it is up to humans to confirm if it is a road and re-classify it if Residential (the default) is not correct.

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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

stevea
(I chose the wrong source email address; apologies if anybody gets this twice).

Thanks, J贸hannes.  I did try FB's tool myself and was pleasantly surprised it does a "looks OK for now" job of how Mikel put it earlier:  "a balance between turbocharged and exploitation."  I hear you as you say that mapwith.ai has, as I described, a comfortable workflow of "AI suggests, human maps, human checks that what is acceptable can be uploaded, human uploads."  That's fine, it does indeed have "a human in the loop" and the human checks for quality, the human is not just being there for the sake of being there.  This aspect of "humans, not AI, determine quality" is a critical component of what I am saying.

What I believe raised ire here was the BBC botching the "press announcement" as a stilted and seemingly uninformed "cheerleading" piece that made AI sound as if it were a "magic bullet" that was going to save mapping in OSM somehow.  It isn't (magic) and it won't (though AI is an important tool going forward, especially as it is coupled with human wisdom and a hawkish eye towards high quality).  OSM is, and will always be, a human-participating project, with all of the social and "get outdoors and map" project as one (human) might like it to be.  AI can and does help, that's fine, as long as humans are always "in charge."

Again, it sounds like there is a lot of agreement here.

SteveA
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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

Joseph Eisenberg
Besides the tech boosterism, another issue is that it's disingenuous
if Facebook claims to be strongly supporting OSM, while continuing to
keep their valuable user-provided data in a separate, proprietary
database.

Facebook and Google have the two best lists of POIs like shops and
restaurants, and an extensive database of customer photos and reviews
which they control. While Facebook has decided to use OSM for road,
street and waterway data (which they couldn't easily have users add),
they keep this data for themselves. Were Facebook interested in
improving OSM, they could share their POI data, including when a
feature was last visited and notes about which feature no longer
exist. This could add millions more OSM contributors for features like
shops and restaurants, which are not yet completely mapped even in
well-developed OSM communities in Europe, and it would be
revolutionary in Indonesia and Thailand.

Only a few people will every become hobby mappers, adding waterways,
highways, landuse and such for fun, but every business owner wants to
see their shop or office on Facebook, so these POIs would be added and
kept up-to-date by users.

I don't expect Facebook to share this data for free, because a large
part of their business model is recording your geodata and using this
to maximize profit for their shareholders, but if they ever decide to
really prove "we're not that evil", sharing their data could go a long
way to changing Facebooks poor reputation for corporate responsibility
and transparency.

Joseph

On 8/1/19, stevea <[hidden email]> wrote:

> (I chose the wrong source email address; apologies if anybody gets this
> twice).
>
> Thanks, J贸hannes.  I did try FB's tool myself and was pleasantly surprised
> it does a "looks OK for now" job of how Mikel put it earlier:  "a balance
> between turbocharged and exploitation."  I hear you as you say that
> mapwith.ai has, as I described, a comfortable workflow of "AI suggests,
> human maps, human checks that what is acceptable can be uploaded, human
> uploads."  That's fine, it does indeed have "a human in the loop" and the
> human checks for quality, the human is not just being there for the sake of
> being there.  This aspect of "humans, not AI, determine quality" is a
> critical component of what I am saying.
>
> What I believe raised ire here was the BBC botching the "press announcement"
> as a stilted and seemingly uninformed "cheerleading" piece that made AI
> sound as if it were a "magic bullet" that was going to save mapping in OSM
> somehow.  It isn't (magic) and it won't (though AI is an important tool
> going forward, especially as it is coupled with human wisdom and a hawkish
> eye towards high quality).  OSM is, and will always be, a
> human-participating project, with all of the social and "get outdoors and
> map" project as one (human) might like it to be.  AI can and does help,
> that's fine, as long as humans are always "in charge."
>
> Again, it sounds like there is a lot of agreement here.
>
> SteveA
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>

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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

stevea
In reply to this post by stevea
I misquoted Mikel Maron by saying he called Facebook's example of this AI technology in OSM "a balance between turbocharged and exploitation."  In fact, he has told me he dislikes both terms immensely in this discussion.

I regret my error and apologize to Mikel.

SteveA

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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

General Discussion mailing list
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg
I don't think it's disingenuous at all for Facebook to use their own POIs instead of OSM's.聽Wasn't the whole point of the Collective Databases principle and the Collective Databases Guideline specifically to enable this type of usage, so that those interested in OSM did not have to make an "all or nothing" choice?聽

On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 9:17 PM Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
Besides the tech boosterism, another issue is that it's disingenuous
if Facebook claims to be strongly supporting OSM, while continuing to
keep their valuable user-provided data in a separate, proprietary
database.

Facebook and Google have the two best lists of POIs like shops and
restaurants, and an extensive database of customer photos and reviews
which they control. While Facebook has decided to use OSM for road,
street and waterway data (which they couldn't easily have users add),
they keep this data for themselves. Were Facebook interested in
improving OSM, they could share their POI data, including when a
feature was last visited and notes about which feature no longer
exist. This could add millions more OSM contributors for features like
shops and restaurants, which are not yet completely mapped even in
well-developed OSM communities in Europe, and it would be
revolutionary in Indonesia and Thailand.

Only a few people will every become hobby mappers, adding waterways,
highways, landuse and such for fun, but every business owner wants to
see their shop or office on Facebook, so these POIs would be added and
kept up-to-date by users.

I don't expect Facebook to share this data for free, because a large
part of their business model is recording your geodata and using this
to maximize profit for their shareholders, but if they ever decide to
really prove "we're not that evil", sharing their data could go a long
way to changing Facebooks poor reputation for corporate responsibility
and transparency.

Joseph

On 8/1/19, stevea <[hidden email]> wrote:
> (I chose the wrong source email address; apologies if anybody gets this
> twice).
>
> Thanks, J贸hannes.聽 I did try FB's tool myself and was pleasantly surprised
> it does a "looks OK for now" job of how Mikel put it earlier:聽 "a balance
> between turbocharged and exploitation."聽 I hear you as you say that
> mapwith.ai has, as I described, a comfortable workflow of "AI suggests,
> human maps, human checks that what is acceptable can be uploaded, human
> uploads."聽 That's fine, it does indeed have "a human in the loop" and the
> human checks for quality, the human is not just being there for the sake of
> being there.聽 This aspect of "humans, not AI, determine quality" is a
> critical component of what I am saying.
>
> What I believe raised ire here was the BBC botching the "press announcement"
> as a stilted and seemingly uninformed "cheerleading" piece that made AI
> sound as if it were a "magic bullet" that was going to save mapping in OSM
> somehow.聽 It isn't (magic) and it won't (though AI is an important tool
> going forward, especially as it is coupled with human wisdom and a hawkish
> eye towards high quality).聽 OSM is, and will always be, a
> human-participating project, with all of the social and "get outdoors and
> map" project as one (human) might like it to be.聽 AI can and does help,
> that's fine, as long as humans are always "in charge."
>
> Again, it sounds like there is a lot of agreement here.
>
> SteveA
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>

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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

Nuno Caldeira

i agree with Kathleen here, we don't need their junk POIs. Actually we shouldn't have anything to do with companies that uses OSM the way they do without complying with the license and OSMF guidelines. This is still to be taken into consideration https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2019-June/082653.html

About this lovely OSMF corporate member, 9 months since i asked https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2019-June/082702.html them to fix attribution and they are still attributing OSM maps to HERE. a round of applause for this outstanding support and example of OSM data usage by an OSMF member.

Video capture of app their Local app https://www.facebook.com/local/ (i meant to say "my contributions", not "my attributions" during the video capturing): https://youtu.be/Ah9FyiT6JKk

My contributions on OSM displayed on the video https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/448052037#map=17/32.64575/-16.90531

Cable car https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/25975745

HERE map at same location https://wego.here.com/?map=32.64615,-16.90117,17,public_transport

Feel free to check your location and your edits on OSM being credited to HERE and share them here (i mean on the mailing list, not HERE).


脌s 17:35 de 01/08/2019, Kathleen Lu via talk escreveu:
I don't think it's disingenuous at all for Facebook to use their own POIs instead of OSM's.聽Wasn't the whole point of the Collective Databases principle and the Collective Databases Guideline specifically to enable this type of usage, so that those interested in OSM did not have to make an "all or nothing" choice?聽

On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 9:17 PM Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
Besides the tech boosterism, another issue is that it's disingenuous
if Facebook claims to be strongly supporting OSM, while continuing to
keep their valuable user-provided data in a separate, proprietary
database.

Facebook and Google have the two best lists of POIs like shops and
restaurants, and an extensive database of customer photos and reviews
which they control. While Facebook has decided to use OSM for road,
street and waterway data (which they couldn't easily have users add),
they keep this data for themselves. Were Facebook interested in
improving OSM, they could share their POI data, including when a
feature was last visited and notes about which feature no longer
exist. This could add millions more OSM contributors for features like
shops and restaurants, which are not yet completely mapped even in
well-developed OSM communities in Europe, and it would be
revolutionary in Indonesia and Thailand.

Only a few people will every become hobby mappers, adding waterways,
highways, landuse and such for fun, but every business owner wants to
see their shop or office on Facebook, so these POIs would be added and
kept up-to-date by users.

I don't expect Facebook to share this data for free, because a large
part of their business model is recording your geodata and using this
to maximize profit for their shareholders, but if they ever decide to
really prove "we're not that evil", sharing their data could go a long
way to changing Facebooks poor reputation for corporate responsibility
and transparency.

Joseph

On 8/1/19, stevea <[hidden email]> wrote:
> (I chose the wrong source email address; apologies if anybody gets this
> twice).
>
> Thanks, J贸hannes.聽 I did try FB's tool myself and was pleasantly surprised
> it does a "looks OK for now" job of how Mikel put it earlier:聽 "a balance
> between turbocharged and exploitation."聽 I hear you as you say that
> mapwith.ai has, as I described, a comfortable workflow of "AI suggests,
> human maps, human checks that what is acceptable can be uploaded, human
> uploads."聽 That's fine, it does indeed have "a human in the loop" and the
> human checks for quality, the human is not just being there for the sake of
> being there.聽 This aspect of "humans, not AI, determine quality" is a
> critical component of what I am saying.
>
> What I believe raised ire here was the BBC botching the "press announcement"
> as a stilted and seemingly uninformed "cheerleading" piece that made AI
> sound as if it were a "magic bullet" that was going to save mapping in OSM
> somehow.聽 It isn't (magic) and it won't (though AI is an important tool
> going forward, especially as it is coupled with human wisdom and a hawkish
> eye towards high quality).聽 OSM is, and will always be, a
> human-participating project, with all of the social and "get outdoors and
> map" project as one (human) might like it to be.聽 AI can and does help,
> that's fine, as long as humans are always "in charge."
>
> Again, it sounds like there is a lot of agreement here.
>
> SteveA
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>

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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by General Discussion mailing list


sent from a phone

> On 1. Aug 2019, at 18:35, Kathleen Lu via talk <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I don't think it's disingenuous at all for Facebook to use their own POIs instead of OSM's.


what Joseph said was: 鈥... it's disingenuous if Facebook claims to be strongly supporting OSM, while continuing to keep their ... data in a ... proprietary database.鈥


Of course they can keep their data, what is disingenuous is keeping your crowdsourced data for yourself while presenting yourself as the savior of OpenStreetMap, when all you are actually doing is providing data that would be too bad to be used as is (otherwise they would use it and not share with us, likely) in the hope, someone will fix it for free.

Cheers Martin




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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Nuno Caldeira


sent from a phone

On 1. Aug 2019, at 23:54, Nuno Caldeira <[hidden email]> wrote:

About this lovely OSMF corporate member, 9 months since i asked https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2019-June/082702.html them to fix attribution and they are still attributing OSM maps to HERE. a round of applause for this outstanding support and example of OSM data usage by an OSMF member.


you are right that this is indeed an open issue, and it is a pity we have not read a word from the foundation about this. Shall we simply tolerate their abuse, of wouldn鈥檛 it be an option to at least suspend their membership if they continue to systematically ignore the attribution requirements?

Cheers Martin 

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Isn't it nice to share? 馃檪 | Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

ebel
In reply to this post by General Discussion mailing list

On 01/08/2019 18:35, Kathleen Lu via talk wrote:
> I don't think it's disingenuous at all for Facebook to use their own
> POIs instead of OSM's. Wasn't the whole point of the Collective
> Databases principle and the Collective Databases Guideline
> specifically to enable this type of usage, so that those interested
> in OSM did not have to make an "all or nothing" choice?

Oh yes, there's nothing wrong with Facebook (and Yelp, and TripAdvisor
and and) having their own PoI database. But, they _could_ help us,
massively, by sharing it. They way they talk about OSM, you'd swear they
were already doing all they could to help us. 馃槈

But it's naive to think they ever will. Nothing wrong with that,
shareholder value and all that.

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Re: Isn't it nice to share? 馃檪 | Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

Blake Girardot


On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 8:00 AM Rory McCann <[hidden email]> wrote:

Oh yes, there's nothing wrong with Facebook (and Yelp, and TripAdvisor
and and) having their own PoI database. But, they _could_ help us,
massively, by sharing it. They way they talk about OSM, you'd swear they
were already doing all they could to help us. 馃槈

But it's naive to think they ever will. Nothing wrong with that,
shareholder value and all that.


Hi Rory,聽

Respectfully, it is naive to think that even if they did offer their POI databases, the self appointed police of OSM would allow the POIs to be added to OSM.

Truthfully, it is naive to think that any mapping or data that is not contributed just the way the few vocal folks who monopolize these OSM lists like, will be accepted.

There really is no way to win with these folks, offer a lot and they accuse the contributor of trying to take over and/or destroying OSM, offer too little and they accuse the users of taking advantage of OSM.

Best to just do like most folks who are interested in using and contributing to OSM do - unsubscribe from these lists and carry on.

cheers,
Blake







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--
----------------------------------------------------
Blake Girardot
OSM Wiki - https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Bgirardot
HOTOSM Member - https://hotosm.org/users/blake_girardot
skype: jblakegirardot

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Re: Isn't it nice to share? 馃檪 | Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

Marc Gemis
This "self appointed police of OSM" will probably question

- how did those companies receive the data, under which copyright?
- how did they geocode the POIs, using Google's geocoder ? (a big no-no)
- how up-to-date is this data ? Will you reimport POIs that have been
rightfully removed in OSM ?
- how will you avoid duplicates ?

all legitimate question imho.

p.s. people that keep blaming the mailing lists for bad behaviour,
really make me wonder why I keep contributing to OSM (mailing list).
Did you ever wonder that this type of constant nagging might turn off
well-meaning people as much as the people you point at turn off you?

On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 9:00 AM Blake Girardot <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 8:00 AM Rory McCann <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Oh yes, there's nothing wrong with Facebook (and Yelp, and TripAdvisor
>> and and) having their own PoI database. But, they _could_ help us,
>> massively, by sharing it. They way they talk about OSM, you'd swear they
>> were already doing all they could to help us.
>>
>> But it's naive to think they ever will. Nothing wrong with that,
>> shareholder value and all that.
>>
>
> Hi Rory,
>
> Respectfully, it is naive to think that even if they did offer their POI databases, the self appointed police of OSM would allow the POIs to be added to OSM.
>
> Truthfully, it is naive to think that any mapping or data that is not contributed just the way the few vocal folks who monopolize these OSM lists like, will be accepted.
>
> There really is no way to win with these folks, offer a lot and they accuse the contributor of trying to take over and/or destroying OSM, offer too little and they accuse the users of taking advantage of OSM.
>
> Best to just do like most folks who are interested in using and contributing to OSM do - unsubscribe from these lists and carry on.
>
> cheers,
> Blake
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
>
>
> --
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Blake Girardot
> OSM Wiki - https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Bgirardot
> HOTOSM Member - https://hotosm.org/users/blake_girardot
> skype: jblakegirardot
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

_______________________________________________
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Re: Isn't it nice to share? 馃檪 | Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

Joseph Eisenberg
Facebook probably shouldn't import all of their POIs directly into
OSM. I understand that this could cause problems.

But they could make available all sorts of useful data, including a
separate overlay or service that allowed us to see where facebook POIs
are located, and manually import them into OSM if they are correct.

I believe that also record your GPS coordinates while using the app in
many cases, such as when taking photos. They could make these GPS
traces available, like Strava does - quite helpful for finding missing
path connections, and also helps show when a street a closed.

They could allow their users to choose to automatically upload photos
of businesses and street scenes under a suitable license to a
Mapillary-like site that could be used for mapping.

They could share data that suggest that POIs no longer exist; such as
a facebook user clicking a note that says "this place is permanently
closed" or "doesn't exist" and we could use that like a note or fixme.
I believe these sort of prompts are already automatically suggested
when the app sees you are at a POI, as are things questions about
additional features (free parking? free wifi, etc?) which could be
useful information for us.

None of these options for share-alike would be clearly good for
short-term shareholder value, but they would be quite helpful for
mappers in OSM, and wouldn't require a massive import.

Joseph

On 8/2/19, Marc Gemis <[hidden email]> wrote:

> This "self appointed police of OSM" will probably question
>
> - how did those companies receive the data, under which copyright?
> - how did they geocode the POIs, using Google's geocoder ? (a big no-no)
> - how up-to-date is this data ? Will you reimport POIs that have been
> rightfully removed in OSM ?
> - how will you avoid duplicates ?
>
> all legitimate question imho.
>
> p.s. people that keep blaming the mailing lists for bad behaviour,
> really make me wonder why I keep contributing to OSM (mailing list).
> Did you ever wonder that this type of constant nagging might turn off
> well-meaning people as much as the people you point at turn off you?
>
> On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 9:00 AM Blake Girardot <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 8:00 AM Rory McCann <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Oh yes, there's nothing wrong with Facebook (and Yelp, and TripAdvisor
>>> and and) having their own PoI database. But, they _could_ help us,
>>> massively, by sharing it. They way they talk about OSM, you'd swear they
>>> were already doing all they could to help us.
>>>
>>> But it's naive to think they ever will. Nothing wrong with that,
>>> shareholder value and all that.
>>>
>>
>> Hi Rory,
>>
>> Respectfully, it is naive to think that even if they did offer their POI
>> databases, the self appointed police of OSM would allow the POIs to be
>> added to OSM.
>>
>> Truthfully, it is naive to think that any mapping or data that is not
>> contributed just the way the few vocal folks who monopolize these OSM
>> lists like, will be accepted.
>>
>> There really is no way to win with these folks, offer a lot and they
>> accuse the contributor of trying to take over and/or destroying OSM, offer
>> too little and they accuse the users of taking advantage of OSM.
>>
>> Best to just do like most folks who are interested in using and
>> contributing to OSM do - unsubscribe from these lists and carry on.
>>
>> cheers,
>> Blake
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> talk mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ----------------------------------------------------
>> Blake Girardot
>> OSM Wiki - https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Bgirardot
>> HOTOSM Member - https://hotosm.org/users/blake_girardot
>> skype: jblakegirardot
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
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Re: Isn't it nice to share? 馃檪 | Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaborati =?utf-8?q?on_with_OpenStreetMap

Valor Naram
The time is now to get into dialogues with Facebook's RaID team instead of discussing further what Facebook did/does wrong, how they can improve their AI, how they can improve their communication with the community and what their intentions are.

Discussing with Facebook's RaID team is better and more helpful for both sites instead of discussing about Facebook's practise without Facebook's involvement.

We should be fair!

Cheers

S枚ren Reinecke alias Valor Naram


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Isn't it nice to share? 馃檪 | Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaborati =?utf-8?q?on_with_OpenStreetMap
From: Joseph Eisenberg
To: Marc Gemis
CC: Rory McCann ,OSM Talk


Facebook probably shouldn't import all of their POIs directly into
OSM. I understand that this could cause problems.

But they could make available all sorts of useful data, including a
separate overlay or service that allowed us to see where facebook POIs
are located, and manually import them into OSM if they are correct.

I believe that also record your GPS coordinates while using the app in
many cases, such as when taking photos. They could make these GPS
traces available, like Strava does - quite helpful for finding missing
path connections, and also helps show when a street a closed.

They could allow their users to choose to automatically upload photos
of businesses and street scenes under a suitable license to a
Mapillary-like site that could be used for mapping.

They could share data that suggest that POIs no longer exist; such as
a facebook user clicking a note that says "this place is permanently
closed" or "doesn't exist" and we could use that like a note or fixme.
I believe these sort of prompts are already automatically suggested
when the app sees you are at a POI, as are things questions about
additional features (free parking? free wifi, etc?) which could be
useful information for us.

None of these options for share-alike would be clearly good for
short-term shareholder value, but they would be quite helpful for
mappers in OSM, and wouldn't require a massive import.

Joseph

On 8/2/19, Marc Gemis wrote:
> This "self appointed police of OSM" will probably question
>
> - how did those companies receive the data, under which copyright?
> - how did they geocode the POIs, using Google's geocoder ? (a big no-no)
> - how up-to-date is this data ? Will you reimport POIs that have been
> rightfully removed in OSM ?
> - how will you avoid duplicates ?
>
> all legitimate question imho.
>
> p.s. people that keep blaming the mailing lists for bad behaviour,
> really make me wonder why I keep contributing to OSM (mailing list).
> Did you ever wonder that this type of constant nagging might turn off
> well-meaning people as much as the people you point at turn off you?
>
> On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 9:00 AM Blake Girardot wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 8:00 AM Rory McCann wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Oh yes, there's nothing wrong with Facebook (and Yelp, and TripAdvisor
>>> and and) having their own PoI database. But, they _could_ help us,
>>> massively, by sharing it. They way they talk about OSM, you'd swear they
>>> were already doing all they could to help us.
>>>
>>> But it's naive to think they ever will. Nothing wrong with that,
>>> shareholder value and all that.
>>>
>>
>> Hi Rory,
>>
>> Respectfully, it is naive to think that even if they did offer their POI
>> databases, the self appointed police of OSM would allow the POIs to be
>> added to OSM.
>>
>> Truthfully, it is naive to think that any mapping or data that is not
>> contributed just the way the few vocal folks who monopolize these OSM
>> lists like, will be accepted.
>>
>> There really is no way to win with these folks, offer a lot and they
>> accuse the contributor of trying to take over and/or destroying OSM, offer
>> too little and they accuse the users of taking advantage of OSM.
>>
>> Best to just do like most folks who are interested in using and
>> contributing to OSM do - unsubscribe from these lists and carry on.
>>
>> cheers,
>> Blake
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> talk mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ----------------------------------------------------
>> Blake Girardot
>> OSM Wiki - https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Bgirardot
>> HOTOSM Member - https://hotosm.org/users/blake_girardot
>> skype: jblakegirardot
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
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Re: Isn't it nice to share? 馃檪 | Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaborati =?utf-8?q?on_with_OpenStreetMap

Nuno Caldeira
Good luck with trying to dialogue with them (can you get any of their emails?). I tried asking simple stuff like complying with license, OSM principles and OSMF guidelines. they stopped replying and keep being acting in a disrespectful way towards our community and OSMF objects. This behavior does not promote the growdth of open data.聽

trying to ask them to improve RaID, instead of prioritizing to fulfill the community standards when they use OSM data in a wrong ways, are not clear is more dangerous for OSM than improving their editor. this kind of behavior from corporate members must be banned. to quote OSMF at https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Corporate_Members

Foundation and community expectations

We expect Corporate Members to conduct themselves as good citizens of the OpenStreetMap ecosystem, e.g. by complying with our attribution requirements (Licence and Legal FAQ), following good editing practice and adhering to the community's guidelines, such as the Licence/Community Guidelines and the Organised Editing Guidelines.聽

They are clearly not good citizens (i dare you to prove me wrong) by not practicing the community guidelines, license. so please stop complying with not complying behavior that only damages OSM/OSMF and our community.聽


about their POIs we get dozens of emails monthly on our copyright email due to their users finding their address on instagram or Facebook in which as they are not clear when using our maps with their data, their users end up sending emails to OSM thinking we are the ones responsible for that lack of privacy on their side when they only use us as a basemap, even without complying with ODbL or the attribution. they are not clear enough what's theirs and what's our data and it's resulting in OSM being "responsible" for their POIs, even when they don't fulfill the basic OSMF standards and guidelines. they must not be aware or read my emails, cuz they are not OSMF corporate members or been asked to comply 9 months ago.聽

A sexta, 2/08/2019, 09:58, Valor Naram <[hidden email]> escreveu:
The time is now to get into dialogues with Facebook's RaID team instead of discussing further what Facebook did/does wrong, how they can improve their AI, how they can improve their communication with the community and what their intentions are.

Discussing with Facebook's RaID team is better and more helpful for both sites instead of discussing about Facebook's practise without Facebook's involvement.

We should be fair!

Cheers

S枚ren Reinecke alias Valor Naram


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Isn't it nice to share? 馃檪 | Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaborati =?utf-8?q?on_with_OpenStreetMap
From: Joseph Eisenberg
To: Marc Gemis
CC: Rory McCann ,OSM Talk


Facebook probably shouldn't import all of their POIs directly into
OSM. I understand that this could cause problems.

But they could make available all sorts of useful data, including a
separate overlay or service that allowed us to see where facebook POIs
are located, and manually import them into OSM if they are correct.

I believe that also record your GPS coordinates while using the app in
many cases, such as when taking photos. They could make these GPS
traces available, like Strava does - quite helpful for finding missing
path connections, and also helps show when a street a closed.

They could allow their users to choose to automatically upload photos
of businesses and street scenes under a suitable license to a
Mapillary-like site that could be used for mapping.

They could share data that suggest that POIs no longer exist; such as
a facebook user clicking a note that says "this place is permanently
closed" or "doesn't exist" and we could use that like a note or fixme.
I believe these sort of prompts are already automatically suggested
when the app sees you are at a POI, as are things questions about
additional features (free parking? free wifi, etc?) which could be
useful information for us.

None of these options for share-alike would be clearly good for
short-term shareholder value, but they would be quite helpful for
mappers in OSM, and wouldn't require a massive import.

Joseph

On 8/2/19, Marc Gemis wrote:

> This "self appointed police of OSM" will probably question
>
> - how did those companies receive the data, under which copyright?
> - how did they geocode the POIs, using Google's geocoder ? (a big no-no)
> - how up-to-date is this data ? Will you reimport POIs that have been
> rightfully removed in OSM ?
> - how will you avoid duplicates ?
>
> all legitimate question imho.
>
> p.s. people that keep blaming the mailing lists for bad behaviour,
> really make me wonder why I keep contributing to OSM (mailing list).
> Did you ever wonder that this type of constant nagging might turn off
> well-meaning people as much as the people you point at turn off you?
>
> On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 9:00 AM Blake Girardot wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 8:00 AM Rory McCann wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Oh yes, there's nothing wrong with Facebook (and Yelp, and TripAdvisor
>>> and and) having their own PoI database. But, they _could_ help us,
>>> massively, by sharing it. They way they talk about OSM, you'd swear they
>>> were already doing all they could to help us.
>>>
>>> But it's naive to think they ever will. Nothing wrong with that,
>>> shareholder value and all that.
>>>
>>
>> Hi Rory,
>>
>> Respectfully, it is naive to think that even if they did offer their POI
>> databases, the self appointed police of OSM would allow the POIs to be
>> added to OSM.
>>
>> Truthfully, it is naive to think that any mapping or data that is not
>> contributed just the way the few vocal folks who monopolize these OSM
>> lists like, will be accepted.
>>
>> There really is no way to win with these folks, offer a lot and they
>> accuse the contributor of trying to take over and/or destroying OSM, offer
>> too little and they accuse the users of taking advantage of OSM.
>>
>> Best to just do like most folks who are interested in using and
>> contributing to OSM do - unsubscribe from these lists and carry on.
>>
>> cheers,
>> Blake
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> talk mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ----------------------------------------------------
>> Blake Girardot
>> OSM Wiki - https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Bgirardot
>> HOTOSM Member - https://hotosm.org/users/blake_girardot
>> skype: jblakegirardot
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

_______________________________________________
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erm... imports still go on | Re: Isn't it nice to share? 馃檪 | Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

ebel
In reply to this post by Blake Girardot

There have been, and continue to be, data imports, automated editing,and
AI type things (like this Facebook). Yes some are unhappy about
this, but it does _happen_. Facebook fights you in court for a copy of
your own personal data, which is a fundamental right. They're bound to
hold on to commercial viable data like PoIs (which I'd expect them to
do). To compare the two, and think an OSM import is about as hard as
getting data from Facebook....

On 02/08/2019 08:57, Blake Girardot wrote:

> Respectfully, it is naive to think that even if they did offer their POI
> databases, the self appointed police of OSM would allow the POIs to be
> added to OSM.
>
> Truthfully, it is naive to think that any mapping or data that is not
> contributed just the way the few vocal folks who monopolize these OSM
> lists like, will be accepted.
>
> There really is no way to win with these folks, offer a lot and they
> accuse the contributor of trying to take over and/or destroying OSM,
> offer too little and they accuse the users of taking advantage of OSM.
>
> Best to just do like most folks who are interested in using and
> contributing to OSM do - unsubscribe from these lists and carry on.
>
> cheers,
> Blake

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
12345