Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

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Re: Isn't it nice to share? 🙂 | Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaborati =?utf-8?q?on_with_OpenStreetMap

Michal Migurski-2
Hi,

The OSM US Slack has a dedicated channel called #mapwithai_feedback where members of the FB team are generally available to answer questions: https://app.slack.com/client/T029HV94T/CK3BZ8FC0

-mike.

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On Aug 2, 2019, at 1:54 AM, Valor Naram <[hidden email]> wrote:

The time is now to get into dialogues with Facebook's RaID team instead of discussing further what Facebook did/does wrong, how they can improve their AI, how they can improve their communication with the community and what their intentions are.

Discussing with Facebook's RaID team is better and more helpful for both sites instead of discussing about Facebook's practise without Facebook's involvement.

We should be fair!

Cheers

Sören Reinecke alias Valor Naram


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Isn't it nice to share? 🙂 | Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaborati =?utf-8?q?on_with_OpenStreetMap
From: Joseph Eisenberg
To: Marc Gemis
CC: Rory McCann ,OSM Talk


Facebook probably shouldn't import all of their POIs directly into
OSM. I understand that this could cause problems.

But they could make available all sorts of useful data, including a
separate overlay or service that allowed us to see where facebook POIs
are located, and manually import them into OSM if they are correct.

I believe that also record your GPS coordinates while using the app in
many cases, such as when taking photos. They could make these GPS
traces available, like Strava does - quite helpful for finding missing
path connections, and also helps show when a street a closed.

They could allow their users to choose to automatically upload photos
of businesses and street scenes under a suitable license to a
Mapillary-like site that could be used for mapping.

They could share data that suggest that POIs no longer exist; such as
a facebook user clicking a note that says "this place is permanently
closed" or "doesn't exist" and we could use that like a note or fixme.
I believe these sort of prompts are already automatically suggested
when the app sees you are at a POI, as are things questions about
additional features (free parking? free wifi, etc?) which could be
useful information for us.

None of these options for share-alike would be clearly good for
short-term shareholder value, but they would be quite helpful for
mappers in OSM, and wouldn't require a massive import.

Joseph

On 8/2/19, Marc Gemis wrote:

> This "self appointed police of OSM" will probably question
>
> - how did those companies receive the data, under which copyright?
> - how did they geocode the POIs, using Google's geocoder ? (a big no-no)
> - how up-to-date is this data ? Will you reimport POIs that have been
> rightfully removed in OSM ?
> - how will you avoid duplicates ?
>
> all legitimate question imho.
>
> p.s. people that keep blaming the mailing lists for bad behaviour,
> really make me wonder why I keep contributing to OSM (mailing list).
> Did you ever wonder that this type of constant nagging might turn off
> well-meaning people as much as the people you point at turn off you?
>
> On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 9:00 AM Blake Girardot wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 8:00 AM Rory McCann wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Oh yes, there's nothing wrong with Facebook (and Yelp, and TripAdvisor
>>> and and) having their own PoI database. But, they _could_ help us,
>>> massively, by sharing it. They way they talk about OSM, you'd swear they
>>> were already doing all they could to help us.
>>>
>>> But it's naive to think they ever will. Nothing wrong with that,
>>> shareholder value and all that.
>>>
>>
>> Hi Rory,
>>
>> Respectfully, it is naive to think that even if they did offer their POI
>> databases, the self appointed police of OSM would allow the POIs to be
>> added to OSM.
>>
>> Truthfully, it is naive to think that any mapping or data that is not
>> contributed just the way the few vocal folks who monopolize these OSM
>> lists like, will be accepted.
>>
>> There really is no way to win with these folks, offer a lot and they
>> accuse the contributor of trying to take over and/or destroying OSM, offer
>> too little and they accuse the users of taking advantage of OSM.
>>
>> Best to just do like most folks who are interested in using and
>> contributing to OSM do - unsubscribe from these lists and carry on.
>>
>> cheers,
>> Blake
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> talk mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ----------------------------------------------------
>> Blake Girardot
>> OSM Wiki - https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Bgirardot
>> HOTOSM Member - https://hotosm.org/users/blake_girardot
>> skype: jblakegirardot
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>

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Re: Sharing, Facebook, mapwithai_feedback

stevea
Re-threading from the rather messy previous one.

Mike:  Thank you for telling us of the #mapwithai_feedback Slack channel, truly.  It is true that some of us choose not to use Slack.

I ask Facebook to meet the OSM community about these issues "on our turf" by participating here.  That would speak volumes, Facebook.  This is a quite an "open" channel, talk.  Archives remain open for years (forever?) and we speak candidly, earnestly and honestly here.  If you weren't watching this thread / dialog before, you are now, Facebook.  Please consider yourself invited here.  Matters do seem pressing with an urgency, although I understand that crafting a thoughtful reply can take some time.

That seems fair, yes, Valor?  A neutral, even polite invitation to here?  We'll see.

There are hundreds, maybe thousands who participate here.  "Facebook" (whomever that might be in the guise of an OSM volunteer who subscribes here) could politely answer this phone call, even quite well.

SteveA

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Re: Sharing, Facebook, mapwithai_feedback

Michal Migurski-2
Hi,

I appreciate the invitation, but this is a complicated list for employees of a large company to have a discussion!

Instead, try posting on the diary post where Drishtie announced the project and FB staff are actively responding: https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/DrishT/diary/368711

The project is also on Github with open issues, if you’ve got something to report: https://github.com/facebookincubator/RapiD/issues

-mike.

> On Aug 2, 2019, at 2:47 PM, stevea <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Re-threading from the rather messy previous one.
>
> Mike:  Thank you for telling us of the #mapwithai_feedback Slack channel, truly.  It is true that some of us choose not to use Slack.
>
> I ask Facebook to meet the OSM community about these issues "on our turf" by participating here.  That would speak volumes, Facebook.  This is a quite an "open" channel, talk.  Archives remain open for years (forever?) and we speak candidly, earnestly and honestly here.  If you weren't watching this thread / dialog before, you are now, Facebook.  Please consider yourself invited here.  Matters do seem pressing with an urgency, although I understand that crafting a thoughtful reply can take some time.
>
> That seems fair, yes, Valor?  A neutral, even polite invitation to here?  We'll see.
>
> There are hundreds, maybe thousands who participate here.  "Facebook" (whomever that might be in the guise of an OSM volunteer who subscribes here) could politely answer this phone call, even quite well.
>
> SteveA
>

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Re: Sharing, Facebook, mapwithai_feedback

stevea
Michal (Mike? I have a brother with the same Polish spelling, and he goes by both names, too!), are you answering as a representative of Facebook or as a contributor to OSM, or both?  I believe I know you to be  a (well respected, august) contributor to OSM, but if you are saying that you might represent Facebook in this talk channel on this topic / these topics, I do not understand your relationship with Facebook, if any, and appreciate any clarity along those lines you might offer.  (You mention being "employees of a large company" and I get that Facebook is exactly that, are you an employee of Facebook?)  Or, perhaps you are simply replying to MY reply that "there is a Slack channel about this, discussion is happening there..." and that it would be difficult to have a discussion a la Slack here on talk.  If the latter is the case, I agree it would be "messier" (as it is single-threaded and slower / serial instead of parallelized like a Slack channel).  Yet, that addresses exactly my point:  that a single(?) (Facebook) representative with a well-focused reply / message to address this / these topic(s) can work.  More slowly and cumbersome, yes (it is a cumbersome channel, I agree, yet we somehow make it work about as well as can be expected to work).  "Complicated" shouldn't scare Facebook away, nor be a reason or excuse to not engage in dialog.  That said, I myself am only one person in this endeavor to better dialog, not a point person or spokesperson, by any means!

A major thrust behind my invitation was about distinctly avoiding communication methodologies that are proprietary and require agreement with a contract of adhesion (precisely as Facebook and Slack offer and require) and using comm tech that is much, much more open (like talk here) — truer to the spirit of OSM.

Thanks for your reply, thanks in advance for any clarification you might further add,
SteveA

> On Aug 5, 2019, at 8:40 PM, Michal Migurski <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I appreciate the invitation, but this is a complicated list for employees of a large company to have a discussion!
>
> Instead, try posting on the diary post where Drishtie announced the project and FB staff are actively responding: https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/DrishT/diary/368711
>
> The project is also on Github with open issues, if you’ve got something to report: https://github.com/facebookincubator/RapiD/issues
>
> -mike.


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Re: Sharing, Facebook, mapwithai_feedback

Nuno Caldeira
In reply to this post by Michal Migurski-2
so we should change the way we communicate because employees of large companies dont like transparência? 
I have sent emails, they only replied once and stopped replying since October 9th 2018. is that a good example of communication with the community? 

A terça, 6/08/2019, 04:43, Michal Migurski <[hidden email]> escreveu:
Hi,

I appreciate the invitation, but this is a complicated list for employees of a large company to have a discussion!

Instead, try posting on the diary post where Drishtie announced the project and FB staff are actively responding: https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/DrishT/diary/368711

The project is also on Github with open issues, if you’ve got something to report: https://github.com/facebookincubator/RapiD/issues

-mike.

> On Aug 2, 2019, at 2:47 PM, stevea <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Re-threading from the rather messy previous one.
>
> Mike:  Thank you for telling us of the #mapwithai_feedback Slack channel, truly.  It is true that some of us choose not to use Slack.
>
> I ask Facebook to meet the OSM community about these issues "on our turf" by participating here.  That would speak volumes, Facebook.  This is a quite an "open" channel, talk.  Archives remain open for years (forever?) and we speak candidly, earnestly and honestly here.  If you weren't watching this thread / dialog before, you are now, Facebook.  Please consider yourself invited here.  Matters do seem pressing with an urgency, although I understand that crafting a thoughtful reply can take some time.
>
> That seems fair, yes, Valor?  A neutral, even polite invitation to here?  We'll see.
>
> There are hundreds, maybe thousands who participate here.  "Facebook" (whomever that might be in the guise of an OSM volunteer who subscribes here) could politely answer this phone call, even quite well.
>
> SteveA
>

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Re: Just email direclty | Re: Sharing, Facebook, mapwithai_feedback

stevea
In reply to this post by stevea
As Michal/Mike suggested, I did reply to DrishT's diary page and DrishT quickly replied.  He was conciliatory, saying "the team has been engaging in as many places as possible where we get reach outs with questions" and he agrees that "community communications (about this topic / these topics) are fragmented."  Although, I haven't seem DrishT or anybody who directly identifies themselves from Facebook engage the community (as narrow a slice as it may be) here (on this "talk channel"), it does appear that "engagement" is happening in other forums / channels.  That seems positive to me (and I'm somewhat skeptical of all of this and can be somewhat harsh in my criticism when I find any).

I'm ready to pay some significant attention to opinions of those like Rory and Nuno who seem to indicate that Facebook publicly says one thing, but their actions (and how they reply / respond and engage) say another.  I am disheartened to hear that some people feel like they haven't been heard / aren't being replied to by Facebook (or their representatives), as that was not my recent experience.

As might have been predicted, this is a complex topic with many channels / methods of communications, messages, past experiences, assumptions and opinions flying around, it can be difficult to untangle them all, and it can be easy to jump to conclusions and experience misunderstandings.  Let us be patient with one another, stick to facts and do our best to sort out as many of the issues as we can.  What appears to be happening here and now is that better "cross-pollination" avenues of communication are being explored and some "road is being paved" in that direction, that seems like a good thing.

Rory, if it helps, it appears that DrishT engages relatively quickly (as a "somewhat representative member of the Facebook community working on this AI project").  If you feel as if you are not heard (or "less than heard"), I recently had a quick reply there ( https://www.osm.org/user/DrishT/diary/368711 ); good luck.

SteveA

> On Aug 5, 2019, at 11:55 PM, Rory McCann <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I think we'll just have to CC [hidden email] and forward all replies to this list. Facebook won't engage.

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Re: Just email direclty | Re: Sharing, Facebook, mapwithai_feedback

General Discussion mailing list
**Just a fyi that Dristie is a woman. She was at SotM last year and quite nice to chat with.

On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 1:22 AM stevea <[hidden email]> wrote:
As Michal/Mike suggested, I did reply to DrishT's diary page and DrishT quickly replied.  He was conciliatory, saying "the team has been engaging in as many places as possible where we get reach outs with questions" and he agrees that "community communications (about this topic / these topics) are fragmented."  Although, I haven't seem DrishT or anybody who directly identifies themselves from Facebook engage the community (as narrow a slice as it may be) here (on this "talk channel"), it does appear that "engagement" is happening in other forums / channels.  That seems positive to me (and I'm somewhat skeptical of all of this and can be somewhat harsh in my criticism when I find any).

I'm ready to pay some significant attention to opinions of those like Rory and Nuno who seem to indicate that Facebook publicly says one thing, but their actions (and how they reply / respond and engage) say another.  I am disheartened to hear that some people feel like they haven't been heard / aren't being replied to by Facebook (or their representatives), as that was not my recent experience.

As might have been predicted, this is a complex topic with many channels / methods of communications, messages, past experiences, assumptions and opinions flying around, it can be difficult to untangle them all, and it can be easy to jump to conclusions and experience misunderstandings.  Let us be patient with one another, stick to facts and do our best to sort out as many of the issues as we can.  What appears to be happening here and now is that better "cross-pollination" avenues of communication are being explored and some "road is being paved" in that direction, that seems like a good thing.

Rory, if it helps, it appears that DrishT engages relatively quickly (as a "somewhat representative member of the Facebook community working on this AI project").  If you feel as if you are not heard (or "less than heard"), I recently had a quick reply there ( https://www.osm.org/user/DrishT/diary/368711 ); good luck.

SteveA

> On Aug 5, 2019, at 11:55 PM, Rory McCann <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I think we'll just have to CC [hidden email] and forward all replies to this list. Facebook won't engage.

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Re: Just email direclty | Re: Sharing, Facebook, mapwithai_feedback

Nuno Caldeira


Às 17:56 de 06/08/2019, Kathleen Lu escreveu:
**Just a fyi that Dristie is a woman. She was at SotM last year and quite nice to chat with.

On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 1:22 AM stevea <[hidden email]> wrote:


SteveA

> On Aug 5, 2019, at 11:55 PM, Rory McCann <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I think we'll just have to CC [hidden email] and forward all replies to this list. Facebook won't engage.

If it's fragmented, it's not our fault, we already have our community communications established for years. Even newer ways of communications (like Telegram groups) are well documented.


About not being heard, did the electronic postman lost my emails to [hidden email] of the 10th of October 2018, the one from 6th of December 2018 (which i CC to [hidden email], [hidden email]) and the one from 6th of January 2019 (also CC to Mapbox, [hidden email], [hidden email])?

I don't buy that talk, not replying to emails asking for simple things and ignoring is bad. Worst, some things are still like they were months ago. As example OSM maps being attributed to HERE.

Actions speaker louder than words.


There's nothing complex, the license, guidelines are well explicit and they are even Corporate Members of OSMF, they surely are aware of how to proceed. Ignoring emails for months is not building bridges. Also has Facebook legal dept managed to review our attribution issue? That's what they said to me on October 2018 (10 months ago). Do we really need to send for legal review, when as OSMF corporate members they must:

Foundation and community expectations

We expect Corporate Members to conduct themselves as good citizens of the OpenStreetMap ecosystem, e.g. by complying with our attribution requirements (Licence and Legal FAQ), following good editing practice and adhering to the community's guidelines, such as the Licence/Community Guidelines and the Organised Editing Guidelines.


https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Corporate_Members



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Re: Just email direclty | Re: Sharing, Facebook, mapwithai_feedback

stevea
In reply to this post by General Discussion mailing list
Thank you, Kathleen.  I am usually quite sensitive to this (often using gender neutrality or s/he as a pronoun...), but this time I ended up making a "typical mistake" (by assuming I could guess correctly).  That is why they put erasers on the ends of pencils.

Should she be reading this thread, I directly apologize to Dristie for my error.  I regret my error.

SteveA
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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

Naveen Francis
In reply to this post by Nuno Caldeira
Hello Nuno

I get your point
Try YOGA it will help you.

thanks,
naveenpf


On Mon, Jul 29, 2019 at 5:18 PM Nuno Caldeira <[hidden email]> wrote:

Às 11:02 de 29/07/2019, Naveen Francis escreveu:
>
> On the rhetoric question:-
> We are using OSM maps life savings projects.
> https://keralarescue.in/map/ . (2018 Kerala floods maps)
> So both quantity and quality are equally important.
>
I don't see the attribution on that map, or that website has an
exception like Facebook seems to have too?

Oh it does attribute, but you have to scroll down to see it. must be a
UX mistake...


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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

> On 7. Aug 2019, at 03:34, Naveen Francis <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Try YOGA it will help you.


I don’t believe this is an acceptable comment in the OpenStreetMap context, it may be at wikimedia, here it is not.

Cheers Martin
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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

Mikel Maron-3
Sorry I but I disagree. Yoga is a long tradition in OpenStreetMap ;)


* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron


On Wednesday, August 7, 2019, 10:04:46 AM GMT+3, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:




sent from a phone

> On 7. Aug 2019, at 03:34, Naveen Francis <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Try YOGA it will help you.


I don’t believe this is an acceptable comment in the OpenStreetMap context, it may be at wikimedia, here it is not.

Cheers Martin

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Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

Nuno Caldeira
In reply to this post by Frederik Ramm

https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/25/20883706/facebook-ar-glasses-prototypes-live-maps-announce-oc6

According to a video, it will produce “multi-layer representations of the world” using crowdsourced data, traditional maps, and footage captured through phones and augmented reality glasses
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTa8zn0RNVM


Às 08:47 de 26/07/2019, Frederik Ramm escreveu:
Hi,

On 25.07.19 22:03, Frederik Ramm wrote:
This press release is on the same level as "Cloudmade's
OpenStreetMap Project" so many years ago.
In case anyone doubts that -

https://www.digitalinformationworld.com/2019/07/facebook-ai-is-supercharging-the-creation-of-maps-around-the-world.html

"Recently, Facebook released a statement about its new effort to create
an OpenStreetMap project to not only benefit from mapping data but also
making this platform an open-source navigational source for users."

And the rest of the article is about how Facebook's only purpose is to
bring comfort to people's lives etc.

This is probably normal for corporate PR people, but for me it's just
disgusting.

Bye
Frederik


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