Fast Food Restaurants

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Fast Food Restaurants

Tac Tacelosky
name=Subway
amenity=restaurant
cuisine=fast_food

OR

name=Subway
amenity=fast_food
cuisine=sandwiches


On a related note, are the underscores necessary?  I'd rather say "Fast Food"

Thx,

Tac

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Re: Fast Food Restaurants

Clifford Snow

On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 3:19 PM, Tac Tacelosky <[hidden email]> wrote:
name=Subway
amenity=restaurant
cuisine=fast_food

This would be my pick.  

On a related note, are the underscores necessary?  I'd rather say "Fast Food"
Me too, but the tag is fast_food. Otherwise you just create another tag that can not be searched. 

taginfo.openstreetmap.org is your friend. In this case there are 119,000 fast_food values for the tag amenity.  




--
Clifford

OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch

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Re: Fast Food Restaurants

Richard Welty-2
In reply to this post by Tac Tacelosky
On 5/28/13 6:19 PM, Tac Tacelosky wrote:

> name=Subway
> amenity=restaurant
> cuisine=fast_food
>
> OR
>
> name=Subway
> amenity=fast_food
> cuisine=sandwiches
>
the second one is what you would get with a JOSM
preset so that's the way i've always entered them.
the JOSM preset does give sandwich, not sandwiches
for cuisine

and the case (all lower case) and the _ are necessary
as that's what is recognized by all the data consumers.
you can, of course, be creative and do whatever you
want, but if you want it to be effective, used the
standard tagging.

richard


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Re: Fast Food Restaurants

Toby Murray-2
On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 5:52 PM, Richard Welty <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 5/28/13 6:19 PM, Tac Tacelosky wrote:
name=Subway
amenity=restaurant
cuisine=fast_food

OR

name=Subway
amenity=fast_food
cuisine=sandwiches

the second one is what you would get with a JOSM
preset so that's the way i've always entered them.
the JOSM preset does give sandwich, not sandwiches
for cuisine

and the case (all lower case) and the _ are necessary
as that's what is recognized by all the data consumers.
you can, of course, be creative and do whatever you
want, but if you want it to be effective, used the
standard tagging.

richard

+1

Fast food is not a cuisine it is a type of restaurant service. You can have fast food burgers, fast food chicken, fast food sandwiches. Those are the things that go in the cuisine tag.

Toby

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Re: Fast Food Restaurants

Paul Johnson-3
In reply to this post by Richard Welty-2
I'd go with the amenity=fast_food bit, too.  Restaurants are a little higher class, Waffle House would be an edge case but I'd be inclined to call that a restaurant (even if it tends to be faster than McDo's).


On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 5:52 PM, Richard Welty <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 5/28/13 6:19 PM, Tac Tacelosky wrote:
name=Subway
amenity=restaurant
cuisine=fast_food

OR

name=Subway
amenity=fast_food
cuisine=sandwiches

the second one is what you would get with a JOSM
preset so that's the way i've always entered them.
the JOSM preset does give sandwich, not sandwiches
for cuisine

and the case (all lower case) and the _ are necessary
as that's what is recognized by all the data consumers.
you can, of course, be creative and do whatever you
want, but if you want it to be effective, used the
standard tagging.

richard



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Re: Fast Food Restaurants

Tac Tacelosky
In reply to this post by Richard Welty-2
Thanks.  I'm actually using taginfo to prepopulate a dropdown form,
but not displaying the frequencies, which I guess I need to do.

I also see things like

amenity=restaurant;bar

which makes sense, but I doubt is "right".

Are there any punctuation restrictions on tags?  In particular, commas
could be problematic for storing a list of tags as a single string.

Tac




On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 6:52 PM, Richard Welty <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 5/28/13 6:19 PM, Tac Tacelosky wrote:
>>
>> name=Subway
>> amenity=restaurant
>> cuisine=fast_food
>>
>> OR
>>
>> name=Subway
>> amenity=fast_food
>> cuisine=sandwiches
>>
> the second one is what you would get with a JOSM
> preset so that's the way i've always entered them.
> the JOSM preset does give sandwich, not sandwiches
> for cuisine
>
> and the case (all lower case) and the _ are necessary
> as that's what is recognized by all the data consumers.
> you can, of course, be creative and do whatever you
> want, but if you want it to be effective, used the
> standard tagging.
>
> richard
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

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Re: Fast Food Restaurants

Serge Wroclawski-2
In reply to this post by Richard Welty-2
This discussion is best for [hidden email] or for
help.osm.org, but I'll bite.

On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 6:52 PM, Richard Welty <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> name=Subway
>> amenity=fast_food
>> cuisine=sandwiches

This is what the wiki would suggest, what the JOSM presets say, and
what the renderer will accept.

The tags are explicit values, so you cannot replace them with
capitalized versions, or ignore the underscores if you want the tools
to understand what you've done.

In addition to above, though, you may want to consider that Subway is
a chain restaurant, so you may want to consider

brand=Subway instead of name=Subway

- Serge

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Re: Fast Food Restaurants

Brian Wolford // Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team
In reply to this post by Paul Johnson-3
I often differentiate fast_food as "counter service" and restaurant as "sit down with a menu and order from a waiter" service.


On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 7:04 PM, Paul Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'd go with the amenity=fast_food bit, too.  Restaurants are a little higher class, Waffle House would be an edge case but I'd be inclined to call that a restaurant (even if it tends to be faster than McDo's).


On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 5:52 PM, Richard Welty <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 5/28/13 6:19 PM, Tac Tacelosky wrote:
name=Subway
amenity=restaurant
cuisine=fast_food

OR

name=Subway
amenity=fast_food
cuisine=sandwiches

the second one is what you would get with a JOSM
preset so that's the way i've always entered them.
the JOSM preset does give sandwich, not sandwiches
for cuisine

and the case (all lower case) and the _ are necessary
as that's what is recognized by all the data consumers.
you can, of course, be creative and do whatever you
want, but if you want it to be effective, used the
standard tagging.

richard



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Re: Fast Food Restaurants

Greg Troxel
In reply to this post by Tac Tacelosky

Tac Tacelosky <[hidden email]> writes:

> Are there any punctuation restrictions on tags?  In particular, commas
> could be problematic for storing a list of tags as a single string.

I am not clear on a formal grammer, but it seems clear that tag names
and non-numeric tag values should be limited to a-z, 0-9, and _, with
the leading character being a-z, and ; denoting multiple values.  This
is fundamentally about communicating to computer programs.

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Re: Fast Food Restaurants

Richard Welty-2
In reply to this post by Paul Johnson-3
On 5/28/13 7:04 PM, Paul Johnson wrote:
> I'd go with the amenity=fast_food bit, too.  Restaurants are a little
> higher class, Waffle House would be an edge case but I'd be inclined to
> call that a restaurant (even if it tends to be faster than McDo's).
my rule of thumb is table service vs counter service.

richard


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Re: Fast Food Restaurants

Greg Troxel
In reply to this post by Brian Wolford // Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team

"Brian Wolford // HOT" <[hidden email]> writes:

> I often differentiate fast_food as "counter service" and restaurant as "sit
> down with a menu and order from a waiter" service.

I basically agree, but there's also an intermediate "order at counter,
have someone bring it to you".  But the key point (here I'm veering into
subjective, I know) is that fast_food implies that the food may be
prepared in advance of you asking for it, generally is shipped in bulk
to the restaurant, and is looked down on as factory food.  If you order
at a counter at a non-chain and they use identifiable ingredients and
cook in ways someone born in 1880 would find respectable, it's probably
"cafe", even if it's fast.

The really difficult case is Panera....


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Re: Fast Food Restaurants

Brian Wolford // Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team

Hehe. As a former Panera employee I would say that the food is indeed shipped in bulk in factory fashion. (frozen gallon bag of soup anyone?) ;-)

For me Panera would be fast_food or cafe, depending on the mappers inclination.

On May 28, 2013 7:22 PM, "Greg Troxel" <[hidden email]> wrote:

"Brian Wolford // HOT" <[hidden email]> writes:

> I often differentiate fast_food as "counter service" and restaurant as "sit
> down with a menu and order from a waiter" service.

I basically agree, but there's also an intermediate "order at counter,
have someone bring it to you".  But the key point (here I'm veering into
subjective, I know) is that fast_food implies that the food may be
prepared in advance of you asking for it, generally is shipped in bulk
to the restaurant, and is looked down on as factory food.  If you order
at a counter at a non-chain and they use identifiable ingredients and
cook in ways someone born in 1880 would find respectable, it's probably
"cafe", even if it's fast.

The really difficult case is Panera....


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Re: Fast Food Restaurants

Tac Tacelosky
In reply to this post by Greg Troxel
Yeah, tag keys should follow that, but not key values.  I'm sure there
are values with single and double quotes, commas and semi-colons.

Does OSM support any sort of multi-tag structure, like
"cuisine:japanese" AND "cuisine:thai"?

Tac

On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 7:18 PM, Greg Troxel <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Tac Tacelosky <[hidden email]> writes:
>
>> Are there any punctuation restrictions on tags?  In particular, commas
>> could be problematic for storing a list of tags as a single string.
>
> I am not clear on a formal grammer, but it seems clear that tag names
> and non-numeric tag values should be limited to a-z, 0-9, and _, with
> the leading character being a-z, and ; denoting multiple values.  This
> is fundamentally about communicating to computer programs.

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Re: Fast Food Restaurants

Greg Troxel

Tac Tacelosky <[hidden email]> writes:

> Yeah, tag keys should follow that, but not key values.  I'm sure there
> are values with single and double quotes, commas and semi-colons.

Sorry, I meant tag values that are essentially keywords, such as
amenity=fast_food.  Basically the values for amenity should not only
follow the a-z0-9_ plan, but be intended eventually to form a smallish
set.
Tags like "name=Foo bar" are something else; that's a value that can be
searched for, but isn't machine-parsed as a catgory

> Does OSM support any sort of multi-tag structure, like
> "cuisine:japanese" AND "cuisine:thai"?

cuisine="japanese;thai"

would be the way to do that.  The quotes are meant to be part of the
input representation; the actual tag value doesn't have the " in it.

This only sort of works; you can have amenity=restaurant with multiple
cuisines, but if you have amenity=restaurant;bar and then cuisine on the
restaurant it gets hard to parse.  So for that case I'd have two POIs,
one restaurant and one bar, assuming they are different things (like in
a hotel).   A restaurant that had a bar area I'd just call a restaurant.

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Re: Fast Food Restaurants

Toby Murray-2
In reply to this post by Tac Tacelosky

On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 6:43 PM, Tac Tacelosky <[hidden email]> wrote:
Yeah, tag keys should follow that, but not key values.  I'm sure there
are values with single and double quotes, commas and semi-colons.

Does OSM support any sort of multi-tag structure, like
"cuisine:japanese" AND "cuisine:thai"?

In theory that's what the semicolon is for:
cuisine=japanese;thai

In practice, I think I can only name a single data consumer who actually parses out semicolons. Mapquest Open parses ref=* tags on highways in the US to draw multiple highway shields for highways that overlap each other. Example:

Toby

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Re: Fast Food Restaurants

Paul Johnson-3
In reply to this post by Serge Wroclawski-2


On May 28, 2013 6:08 PM, "Serge Wroclawski" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> brand=Subway instead of name=Subway

Very, very few Subway locations have names other than Subway.  Not really sure that's a valid complaint except in particularly well-branded edge cases (like Batman's Subway, which is in Batman Fuels (Shell) and related to Batman's Auto Sales).

Not sure how many people would search for a Subway along I 40 in Arizona would necessarily expect it to be named "Meteor Crater", which would be implied by moving "Subway" to a brand tag.


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Re: Fast Food Restaurants

Serge Wroclawski-2
On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 8:29 PM, Paul Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On May 28, 2013 6:08 PM, "Serge Wroclawski" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> brand=Subway instead of name=Subway
>
> Very, very few Subway locations have names other than Subway.  Not really
> sure that's a valid complaint except in particularly well-branded edge cases
> (like Batman's Subway, which is in Batman Fuels (Shell) and related to
> Batman's Auto Sales).

I'm sorry but I don't understand this comment at all.

Are you saying that because of the brand tag, that there would some
consequence? This is a matter of the data consumer, such as the
renderer, knowing what to do with the tag.

When I write software to get the label of an object, I always use
brand or operator over name.

- Serge

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Re: Fast Food Restaurants

Brad Neuhauser


When I write software to get the label of an object, I always use
brand or operator over name.

How does this work for something like a school, where the name is the individual school's name, but the school district is the operator?

Brad

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Re: Fast Food Restaurants

Paul Johnson-3
In reply to this post by Serge Wroclawski-2

On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 8:13 PM, Serge Wroclawski <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm sorry but I don't understand this comment at all.

Are you saying that because of the brand tag, that there would some
consequence? This is a matter of the data consumer, such as the
renderer, knowing what to do with the tag.

Well, I guess we need to back up.  When is a name not a name to you?

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Re: Fast Food Restaurants

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Tac Tacelosky



2013/5/29 Tac Tacelosky <[hidden email]>

name=Subway
amenity=fast_food
cuisine=sandwiches


 
for the kind of Subway I know of, I'd definitely use this one, they are far from being "restaurants". I would tag brand=Subway and the operator from the receipt (e.g. if you ate there).

Cheers,
Martin

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