Feature Proposal - RFC - Campsite properties

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Feature Proposal - RFC - Campsite properties

Joseph Eisenberg
Please comment on this proposal for additional properties and features
to be used in campsite, caravan site and camp pitch areas:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Campsite_properties

Main changes:

Deprecate booking=* (use reservation=* instead)
Deprecate bbq=* (use barbecue_grill=* instead).

The main issues:

reservation=* vs Booking=* - both tags have been used, but the tag
reservation=* is much more common and is a better known term in
English.

bbq=yes vs barbecue_grill=yes - the tag bbq=yes/no matches the common
tag amenity=bbq, but it is somewhat ambiguous: does it mean there is a
grill there, or that you can bring your own? Both tags are about
equally common currently.

tents=<number> vs maxtents=* vs capacity:tents=* - there are 3 ways to
tag how many tents are permitted at a campground or camp pitch. The
last one is picked because it is the most widely used, and least
ambiguous, and it allows tents=yes/no to be simpler, without numbers
included as values.

amenity=dryer vs amenity=clothes_dryer - the first is more common, the
later appears to have been proposed for a clothes-line like outdoor
structure, rather than a mechanical dryer, in Russia:
RU:Tag:amenity=clothes_dryer

This is the list of new wiki pages that would be created:

amenity=greywater_drain
amenity=power_supply
amenity=bear_box
scout=yes/no
waste_disposal=yes/no
bear_box=yes/no
greywater_drain=yes/no

And these pages would get new values
Key:parking - add parking=yes/no
capacity:tents/caravans/static_caravans would be mentioned on Key:capacity=*

- Joseph

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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - Campsite properties

Graeme Fitzpatrick

On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 at 11:39, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
scout=yes/no

I was wondering what "scout" referred to, till I looked at the page & saw reference to Girl Scouts etc!

This should possibly be scouts=yes/no ?

(Although I have seen references out here to non-Scouting people camping in Scout campgrounds while they're not being used by Scouts, so it's apparently not an exclusive tag?)

Thanks

Graeme

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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - Campsite properties

Joseph Eisenberg
I didn’t invent the tag, it’s already been used several hundred times. 

I suppose the idea was “scout (camp) = yes/no” - its a property that describes the type of camp as “scout”. It could be used with access = yes or = private depending on the camp.

There is also leisure=summer_camp which might be used with scout=yes, but it’s not totally clear when to use that tag instead of tourism=camp_site.

On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 7:32 AM Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 at 11:39, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
scout=yes/no

I was wondering what "scout" referred to, till I looked at the page & saw reference to Girl Scouts etc!

This should possibly be scouts=yes/no ?

(Although I have seen references out here to non-Scouting people camping in Scout campgrounds while they're not being used by Scouts, so it's apparently not an exclusive tag?)

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - Campsite properties

Joseph Eisenberg
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg
It's been a week since the RFC for this proposal focused on campsites
and related tourism features. It which would:

1) Deprecate booking=* (use reservation=* instead)

2)  Deprecate bbq=* (use barbecue_grill=* instead).

3) Create new wiki pages:
amenity=greywater_drain
amenity=power_supply
amenity=bear_box
scout=yes/no
waste_disposal=yes/no
bear_box=yes/no
greywater_drain=yes/no

And add new values to these pages:
Key:parking - add parking=yes/no
Key:capacity=* - capacity:tents/caravans/static_caravans would be mentioned

That's a lot of changes. So if anyone dislikes one of these changes,
please say so, so that I can separate it out into it's own proposal.

However, if all of these are non-controversial, I think it's okay to
discuss and vote on them all together, to save time for everyone.

-Joseph


On 8/22/19, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Please comment on this proposal for additional properties and features
> to be used in campsite, caravan site and camp pitch areas:
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Campsite_properties
>
> Main changes:
>
> Deprecate booking=* (use reservation=* instead)
> Deprecate bbq=* (use barbecue_grill=* instead).
>
> The main issues:
>
> reservation=* vs Booking=* - both tags have been used, but the tag
> reservation=* is much more common and is a better known term in
> English.
>
> bbq=yes vs barbecue_grill=yes - the tag bbq=yes/no matches the common
> tag amenity=bbq, but it is somewhat ambiguous: does it mean there is a
> grill there, or that you can bring your own? Both tags are about
> equally common currently.
>
> tents=<number> vs maxtents=* vs capacity:tents=* - there are 3 ways to
> tag how many tents are permitted at a campground or camp pitch. The
> last one is picked because it is the most widely used, and least
> ambiguous, and it allows tents=yes/no to be simpler, without numbers
> included as values.
>
> amenity=dryer vs amenity=clothes_dryer - the first is more common, the
> later appears to have been proposed for a clothes-line like outdoor
> structure, rather than a mechanical dryer, in Russia:
> RU:Tag:amenity=clothes_dryer
>
> This is the list of new wiki pages that would be created:
>
> amenity=greywater_drain
> amenity=power_supply
> amenity=bear_box
> scout=yes/no
> waste_disposal=yes/no
> bear_box=yes/no
> greywater_drain=yes/no
>
> And these pages would get new values
> Key:parking - add parking=yes/no
> capacity:tents/caravans/static_caravans would be mentioned on
> Key:capacity=*
>
> - Joseph
>

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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - Campsite properties

Sven Geggus
Hello,

first of all, as the author of http://opencampingmap.org I
basically support any approach to streamline the tagging of campsites!

However, I would also like to point out, that the main problem we currently
have with campsite mapping in OSM ist not _inaccurate_ tagging but _no_
additional tagging at all!

About one third of the sites do not even have a name and another third have
a name tag as the only additional one.  This will add up to about 60% of
sites whith incomplete tagging.

Just have a look at the "Campsites with incomplete tagging" site I made up
using Osmoscope:
http://osmoscope.openstreetmap.de/#map=4/4.85321/40.84314&l=https://camping.openstreetmap.de/osmoscope/incomplete-campsites.json

Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

> It's been a week since the RFC for this proposal focused on campsites
> and related tourism features. It which would:

Well not all Users of Openstreetmap-data are regular followers of the
tagging list.  Don't you think, that known users of stuff you are discussing
should be included in such a discussion?

I just came about this one reading weekly OSM news and I think that I am
certainly one of the known users in case of this stuff.

> It which would:
>
> 1) Deprecate booking=* (use reservation=* instead)

I am usually not a friend of such discussions.  I just tend to enforce
streamlining tagging by using one tag but not another.  "booking" is
currently not honored in Open Camping Map because it is barely used, so yes,
if you like to get rid of it in a somewhat official way I would not object.

Another (IMO) mess which comes to mind ist this regard ist the "contact:"
prefix bullshit which made me include a tag-mapping feature anyway.

So with the current code handling booking in the same way as reservation
would be easy to do.

> 2)  Deprecate bbq=* (use barbecue_grill=* instead).

Well, in practice according to taginfo there are zero campsites featuring an
additional bbq or barbecue_grill tag.

What we often have is an amenity=bbq feature somewhere on the site, which
I honor on my map.

So frankly I do not care about this one that much as it is currently not in use
anyway and thus not supported.

> 3) Create new wiki pages:
> amenity=greywater_drain
> amenity=power_supply
> amenity=bear_box
> waste_disposal=yes/no
> bear_box=yes/no
> greywater_drain=yes/no

I do not currently support these.

However, it might be a good idea to treat an amenity=power_supply on the
premises the same as power_supply=yes on the site-object.

Is there a difference between a greywater_drain and a
sanitary_dump_station?

> scout=yes/no

In the context of my map I currently treat scout=yes the same as
"group_only=yes".  These are sites for groups (likely private) after all,
regardless of the type of group.

> And add new values to these pages:
> Key:parking - add parking=yes/no
> Key:capacity=* - capacity:tents/caravans/static_caravans would be mentioned

Yeah well probably capacity should be specified more clearly. In practice
this is even more complicated as some people think of capacity in terms of
people rather than tents or caravans. I currently prefer using maxtents as
this is more well-defined.

> That's a lot of changes. So if anyone dislikes one of these changes,
> please say so, so that I can separate it out into it's own proposal.

Well if you are about additional tags I would strongly recomend adding
another one which is already supported in http://opencampingmap.org

In Germany there are a lot of campsites which rent pitches on a seasonal or
even yearly base. People often use them as a kind of weekend home.

We call them "Dauercamper" which is likely called "permanent campers" in
english.

As this is quite common here and there are even sites for permanent
residents _only_ I invented a tag called permanent_camping=yes/no/only

Regards

Sven

P.S.: You may also have a look at my Open Camping Map Announcement
http://blog.gegg.us/2019/01/announcing-open-camping-map/

--
"Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy because you have
 nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free
 speech because you have nothing to say." (Edward Snowden)
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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - Campsite properties

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

> On 4. Sep 2019, at 21:00, Sven Geggus <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Is there a difference between a greywater_drain and a
> sanitary_dump_station?


greywater is wastewater without feces, e.g. from sinks and showers, while I would guess that a sanitary dump station is for sewage.


Cheers Martin
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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - Campsite properties

Joseph Eisenberg
Correct. And often there is a greywater drain at each individual camp pitch, but only one sanitary_dump_station where caravans and RVs can empty their sewage tank.

On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 9:15 AM Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:


sent from a phone

> On 4. Sep 2019, at 21:00, Sven Geggus <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Is there a difference between a greywater_drain and a
> sanitary_dump_station?


greywater is wastewater without feces, e.g. from sinks and showers, while I would guess that a sanitary dump station is for sewage.


Cheers Martin
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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - Campsite properties

Joseph Eisenberg
In reply to this post by Sven Geggus
Sven,

Thank you for your comments, I appreciate having your involvement in
this proposal.

>> 2)  Deprecate bbq=* (use barbecue_grill=* instead).
>
> Well, in practice according to taginfo there are zero campsites featuring an
> additional bbq or barbecue_grill tag.

Mainly this is used for picnic sites. It's not a common tag;
barbecue_grill=* is about equally used but also still rare. But it
might be useful for specifying all the features at a
tourism=camp_pitch, in addition to picnic sites and the like. The
reason for choosing barbecue_grill=* instead of bbq=* is that bbq
could imply permission to user your own grill, rather than the
presence of a grill which is permanently installed at the feature.

> Well if you are about additional tags I would strongly recomend adding
> another one which is already supported in http://opencampingmap.org
> In Germany there are a lot of campsites which rent pitches on a seasonal or
> even yearly base. People often use them as a kind of weekend home.
> We call them "Dauercamper" which is likely called "permanent campers" in
> english.
> As this is quite common here and there are even sites for permanent
> residents _only_ I invented a tag called permanent_camping=yes/no/only

That's an interesting idea. I don't know much about this concept
myself, so it would be better if this were kept separate. Is it like
renting a summer cabin, or more like having a permanent spot in a
mobile home park (eg for fixed caravans)?

I see it's already been used 50 times. Maybe you can make a proposal
or a wiki page to document it?
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:permanent_camping&action=edit

Thank you for your help,

-Joseph Eisenberg

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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - Campsite properties

Sven Geggus
Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

> That's an interesting idea. I don't know much about this concept
> myself, so it would be better if this were kept separate. Is it like
> renting a summer cabin, or more like having a permanent spot in a
> mobile home park (eg for fixed caravans)?

No this is all about renting a pitch for your own caravan not for renting a
whole caravan.  We already have static_caravans=yes for the latter.

> I see it's already been used 50 times. Maybe you can make a proposal
> or a wiki page to document it?
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:permanent_camping&action=edit

OK, added this page.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:permanent_camping

Is it allowed to add images from Wikipedia to OSM-Wiki?

If so, there would be:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dauercamper_Asel_Sued_Edersee_20101024.JPG

Regards

Sven

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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - Campsite properties

Joseph Eisenberg
> Is it allowed to add images from Wikipedia to OSM-Wiki?

Yes, and all you have to do is write image=
File:Dauercamper_Asel_Sued_Edersee_20101024.JPG in the Description
box, for example. I've updated the new page with the image and some
more details, like that it needs to be added to a camp_site,
caravan_site or camp_pitch feature.

Thanks for documenting the tag!

(While I wouldn't have picked the key "permanent_camping" myself if
it's only on a seasonal or annual basis, I think it's probably fine,
and I can't think of a better English term.)

- Joseph Eisenberg

On 9/10/19, Sven Geggus <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> That's an interesting idea. I don't know much about this concept
>> myself, so it would be better if this were kept separate. Is it like
>> renting a summer cabin, or more like having a permanent spot in a
>> mobile home park (eg for fixed caravans)?
>
> No this is all about renting a pitch for your own caravan not for renting a
> whole caravan.  We already have static_caravans=yes for the latter.
>
>> I see it's already been used 50 times. Maybe you can make a proposal
>> or a wiki page to document it?
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:permanent_camping&action=edit
>
> OK, added this page.
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:permanent_camping
>
> Is it allowed to add images from Wikipedia to OSM-Wiki?
>
> If so, there would be:
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dauercamper_Asel_Sued_Edersee_20101024.JPG
>
> Regards
>
> Sven
>
> --
> The laws of mathematics are very commendable but the only law that applies
> in
> Australia is the law of Australia.
> (Australian prime minister Malcom Turnbull)
> /me is giggls@ircnet, http://sven.gegg.us/ on the Web
>
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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - Campsite properties

Jez Nicholson
In reply to this post by Sven Geggus
I fixed the image link....it didn't like the space between '=' and 'File:'

On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 1:19 PM Sven Geggus <[hidden email]> wrote:
Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

> That's an interesting idea. I don't know much about this concept
> myself, so it would be better if this were kept separate. Is it like
> renting a summer cabin, or more like having a permanent spot in a
> mobile home park (eg for fixed caravans)?

No this is all about renting a pitch for your own caravan not for renting a
whole caravan.  We already have static_caravans=yes for the latter.

> I see it's already been used 50 times. Maybe you can make a proposal
> or a wiki page to document it?
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:permanent_camping&action=edit

OK, added this page.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:permanent_camping

Is it allowed to add images from Wikipedia to OSM-Wiki?

If so, there would be:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dauercamper_Asel_Sued_Edersee_20101024.JPG

Regards

Sven

--
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Australia is the law of Australia.
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Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - Campsite properties

Sven Geggus
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg
Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

> (While I wouldn't have picked the key "permanent_camping" myself if
> it's only on a seasonal or annual basis, I think it's probably fine,
> and I can't think of a better English term.)

I can not talk for other countries, but in Germany this setting is
definitely *permanent* in a way that people typically have their caravans on
the same pitch for years.  Its only the fee which is charged on a seasonal
or annual basis.

Sven

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